Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes JSA/MAGOG Special: Starman inconsistencies

Justice Society of America 14 - Starman (Thom Kallor) curious comment.

Starman line on page 12 panels 1 and 2

"I was on Superman's (the kingdom come superman) earth cyclone. I met magog. If a Magog is born here...you'll all die in a war between heroes. Just like the history books on Xanthu say you will.

Interesting...the books on Xanthu (i think they spelled it wrong but anyway) say that a war between heroes happend and the JSA died (i think I'm getting that implication) but since it doesn't happen on this Earth (New Earth) what universe is Thom and therefore the Legion (original) from????

Yet Kingdom Come itself shows the Reboot Legion as its future.

Nope. It's a Postboot/SW6 amalgamation, with added Kon & Matrix.

That was pre-IC Kingdom Come. Post-IC Kingdom Come could be completely different.

That SW6/Postboot Legion cast we saw in Kingdom Come was actually pretty sweet. In my opinion.

As for Starman, I think the implication might be that the JSA death could still happen. Haven't actually read the book, that's just what I'm gathering from the quote. And I have no idea where Starman and the current Legion are from anymore. They're sure fun though.

Starman is Starboy from the "original" legion over in action comics and of the Lighting Saga Legion. Who was on Kingdom Come Earth as Starman ...i forgot the number. But basically if you see a starman in kingdom come (look on one of the covers) that's Thom. (oh yeah and he has his beard still)

Kingdom Come never explicitly named many of the characters in it. The Legion panel shows 'Superboy' and 'Supergirl' leading a flight of Legionnaires including Projectra in her classic costume and TimberWolf in his 70s look. Everyone else appears in the Sprouse style costumes.

Even characters such as Green Lantern who play a bigger role in the story aren't named. Weren't there some editorial disputes over Waid and Ross' preferences for the disgraced or out of continuity versions of characters?

Kingdom Come never explicitly named many of the characters in it. The Legion panel shows 'Superboy' and 'Supergirl' leading a flight of Legionnaires including Projectra in her classic costume and TimberWolf in his 70s look. Everyone else appears in the Sprouse style costumes.

Even characters such as Green Lantern who play a bigger role in the story aren't named. Weren't there some editorial disputes over Waid and Ross' preferences for the disgraced or out of continuity versions of characters?

Bouncing Boy, Brainiac 5, Catspaw, Chameleon Boy, Chemical King (?), Colossal Boy/Leviathan, Cosmic Boy, Dragonmage, Dream Girl (?), Element Lad, Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid, Karate Kid, Light Lass/Gossamer, Lightning Lad/Live Wire, Matter-Eater Lad, Mon-El, Phantom Girl/Apparition, Princess Projectra, Saturn Girl, Shadow Lass/Umbra, Shrinking Violet, Star Boy, Sun Boy, Superboy, Supergirl, Timber Wolf, Triplicate Girl/Triad/Duo Damsel, Ultra Boy, XS.

Starman (Thom) was named. Though as we know from other books he took the name Danny Blaine. Though that was pre IC...

I personally assumed it was a choice, since our main character the rev. wouldn't/didn't know that many by name, let alone be able to differnetiate between them.

I thought it was a refreshing change, rather than continually over-explain everyone and everything.

True the not knowing probably even added to the scope of the story.

JSA KINGDOM COME SPECIAL: MAGOG #1 has the "Origin of Starman" as a back up.

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Johns not only shoe-horned in the schizophrenia, but totally glossed over his Kryptonian-level powers.

It does say that he left the Legion due to killing Kenz Nuhor, but says he was brought back during the first Legion of Three Worlds. Which is also when/were he got his current uniform.

Then, it claims that he left the 31st Century to go to the 21st during the Action Comics/Earth Man adventure and not during the Lighting Saga!?!

Does Johns even read his own stories let alone the ones he's trying to restore?

So... the first Lo3W basically takes the place of Adv. 350-351?

Ironically, Starman's inconsistencies are consistent-- with bad writing!

No one puts Baby in a corner, and no one mucks with ADV 350 & 351!

I don't know that Johns contradicted anything about the Kryptonian powers...he doesn't explicitly state that Thom never had the Kryptonian level powers...they just aren't mentioned.

As for Adv 350-351...I am almost certain they still happened. Keep in mind the LO3W is an adventure that many of the Legionaires don't even remember, and virtually no one remembers the details...at no point does Johns say the Sir Prize and Miss Terious stuff never happened...it's just not mentioned. Since not all the Legionaires even remember the LO3W...what do they remember in it's place as the events that lead to Thom's return? Could very well be the Sir Prize and Miss Terious story.

Keep in mind a lot of people were saying many Legion stories didn't happen for this Legion and then Johns put most of those rumors to rest in the Batman and the Legion story that followed the Action arc.


I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I find out otherwise.


Adv 350-351 pretty much has to have happened...IIRC it was the first appearance of the White Witch.

But Mordru in Lo3W #2 claims to be responsible for restoring Mysa not as it was shown in Adv 351.

Sounds like Johns is rewriting history.

Since 350/351 featured Supergirl and Comet, that's kind of understandable.

You think you know that story...Sir Prize! You don't.

More seriously, I think it's been clear for a while that there are some subtle differences between the Johns Legion and the published pre-Crisis Legion history. Exhibit # 1 is the fact that Karate Kid was freakin' alive!!

So, Star Boy was never re-instated in forgiveness for the Nuhor killing. Not a major biggie. In any subsequent story that his participantion is instrumental, just plug him in as a guest, like the White Witch or Duplicate Boy.

As for Mordru's comments, I think that's Johns writing from Mordru's twisted point of view more than from a historical re-write. Mordru saw her as a hag when un-tainted by his touch, and as beautiful when she submitted to him (albeit unwillingly).

I don't know...I usually like my Origins to like contain a characters origin and not just the agenda of the month. Maybe that's just me.

And no one's defending the Lightning Saga/Action Arc mix up?

Er... it's the way he remembers it in his crazy, mixed-up, schizophrenic mind?

I thought it was an open-and-shut case the moment I read Johns' new version of new "first meeting" of Superboy and the three founders, which bore no resemblance whatever to the story recorded in Adventure #247, but I guess he'll have to take the wrecking ball to 90% of the Silver and Bronze age stories before other fans are ready admit the obvious: this is not the original Legion. Never was, never can be. The new Adventure's going to be a hoot and a half -- not for its stories but for the reaction it'll get from veteran fans as they see the original history and characters systematically erased and overwritten by the Johnsboot.

Really hope there is no retread of old stories.

Whizzy the Super-Cat likely has some as of yet unrevealed power that allowed both events to take place. Likely a super-reality altering power.

The 6 characters went back during the Lightning Saga to find a way to combat Earth Man (Brainy wanted whatever/whoever was in the rod). The only inconsistency is that Wildfire and Dawnstar are in the Gary Frank Costumes, other than that theses events could well have happened before the Lightning Saga (note the rod is "empty").

Now that I think about it...if indeed these are rewrites, it might have more to do with Superboy and the still unsettled litigation. I think the Siegels are attempting to get the rights of the Smallville supporting cast and characters introduced in those stories...this retcon seems to remove all traces of Adventure Comics #282...right down to the similar powers.


I can't think of a single thing accomplished by the elimination of the Kryptonian type powers, except that by avoiding mentioning them...

A. It establishes Starboy as a characer totally independent from the Superboy mythos, at least for the purposes of this story...and this Legion.

B. By eliminating 350-351, at least from mention in this story, DC won't have to pay the Siegels any money for this story should they lose the rights to Superboy.


The first question I tend to ask myself when I see a Johns retcon...why did he do that? Most of the time his retcons make sense. Either something useful is accomplished...or he's eliminating a totally bad story aspect, usually one not well recevived by the fans.

None of those things apply here.


Of course it could just be that he screwed up or wasn't aware of that history...I tend to give writers a break on this sort of thing the first time through...the Legion has a daunting continuity and you've got a read a lot of titles about different characters to master that history.

To learn the Legion's original history you have to read not just Adventure, but Superboy, Action(both the Superman and Supergirl features), Superman, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane...and a lot of those stories are important to the Legion, not becuase of a Legion appearance, but because the appearance of one character. Maybe Johns hasn't read Adventure 282?


The reason I suspect this isn't what everyone seems...

Well Johns himself is the guy that restored these stories and saw the clear benefit in doing so...I don't expect he'll eliminate them without a really good reason for doing so. In fact he's said as much...if it's possible for them to have happened, they happened.


The Starfield Suit and the Schizophrenia are typical of the sort of retcons Johns does(something added)...the elimination of those Kryp powers and Adv #350-351(something needlessly eliminated) are not.