Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Legion of Super-Heroes #3 - SPOILERS

And this is precisely the problem I have with the new series. Practically speaking, this version has only existed since the 'Lightning Saga' storyline... there is no real prior history. We were told to presume that most of the history would be the same. In fact, Jeff Johns went as far as to state that ALL the pre-CoIE Legion stories were cannon.... but they are NOT. How can they be? So, we are still expected to presume that things are relatively the same until the story specifically states otherwise. So every time the story does contradict something that we supposedly 'knew' to be true about this Legion it is a surprise and a shock. So much so that it has become disconcerting and disheartening every time it happens (which seems to be several times an issue in both the LoSH and Adventure Comics). That would be bad enough if the only continuity issues were between this new version of the Legion and the one it is allegedly based on, but it doesn't even bother to maintain continuiity within it's own brief history. At the end of LoTW, Yat was over his depression enough to send out GL rings to find new wearers (including one to the secctor that contains Earth).... but in the opening pages of the new LoSH series we find a pitiful sulking Yat still boo-hooing and then the Poke'mon creature appears, takes a ring and bestows it upon Absorbancy Boy... WTF?!?
Sorry, but I am just about through with this sorry mess and DC in general.

I presume that we'll find out about the history of this Legion, slowly, but surely, in Adventure.

let the story unroll at its own pace. no use bursting an artery over it.

What we actually have is:

1) a series which is the same as the old Legion except for the death of Superboy and any changes made necessary by changes to other parts of the DCU (mostly Superboy/Superman, with some Flash and Starman).

2) the usual mistakes and retcons that happen in all series, whether they have been rebooted or not. (Especially after a change in writer. And Geoff Johns writing a series that used to be written by Paul is a change in writer.)

You're noticing 2) and blaming it all on 1).

If one Batman story contradicts another one from five years ago, we don't write "We're expected to believe things are the same as five years ago. But they obviously aren't! It's a shock! It's disconcerting to see something that we supposedly 'knew' to be true about Batman isn't! There is no prior history because we can't assume anything still happened!"

Yes, having contradictions is a problem. But you're mischaracterizing the scope of the problem if you say that a few contradictions mean it doesn't count as being the same series. *All series have this kind of contradiction*. That doesn't mean it's not the same series--if it did, no series would ever be considered the same as itself from a few years ago.

well said, Ken.

I agree.

I am just trying to say that by considering this Legion to be close to the original one but really a reboot, which it HAS to be, given the changes in the DCU, I can let the small stuff go.
Nothing becomes a 'shock' and I don't worry about continuity from before.

I just enjoy what I have now.

Except for the idea of Shady letting herself fall in love with EM.
Sex?
A child even.
Okay, I guess, if it has to be.
But, LOVE?
sigh

I felt the same way about DnA's Progenitor Jan.

Give it some time people.
We're only three issues in!
Give Paul some time to get up and running.
As long as he tells stories worth reading, and his characterization is as good as it was in the past, this will be a great series.

I'm afraid I'm just not as hung up on continuity as much as most people. As long as the basics are there, let's move on with new stories.

Woah! We're getting ahead of ourselves here, aren't we?
We don't know yet that it's Shady in bed with Earth Man!

True.

I hope it's Condo.

to me, it still doesn't have enough changes (from 60s-80s LSH) to really be considered a 'reboot,' but I agree it's debatable.

I prefer 'revamp,' but I'm slowly losing my dislike of the term 'retroboot.'

Sorry, the Batman comparison doesn't hold up. Batman has not been rebooted twice and then reintroduced with a solicited return of "the original". We're in unchartered territory here. This comparison feels like an attempt to dismiss the disappointment of fans who didn't get what was advertised.

We've been keeping track of how the current version of the Legion differs from the presumed departure point of the end of Magic Wars. Perhaps somebody could start a list of things that are the same. It might add some perspective to the debate.

For me, the original Legion was the team that carried over into the 5YL run. Giffen and the Bierbaums were much more respectful of the earlier series then those involved in this current venture. They were also more clear about what the differences were, and about what caused those differences. To be fair, it did take them a couple of years to spell it all out. Levitz has only had three issues so far. However, the first issue of the Lightning Saga story line had a June 2007 cover date. Proponents of a wait and see approach should hopefully be able to concede that the fans expressing frustration have been waiting for some time now.

I'm in for the long haul. I truly am finding quite a bit to enjoy with the new series. I have high hopes that it will continue to improve. That doesn't mean that the introduction of this version team hasn't been filled with mistakes, contradictions, and mismanagement. It clearly has. Fans who have stuck with it, in spite of their frustrations, deserve better than to be dismissed as petty continuity cops.

Paul is banking on the fact that most of us are rapidly approaching the age where we won't remember anything we last read two weeks ago anyway.

The point is that all series have inconsistencies. A series where the original has been brought back is going to have inconsistencies just like a series where the original was there all along.

Yeah, they were very clear about why "Cargg" was spelled with three "G"s. And why Sun Boy was a decaying animated corpse because one fan didn't like Sun Boy. And making Garth having been Proty since the 1960's is really respectful.

no, but Batman routinely gets killed/broken backs/replaced and other assorted "events," and has his own share of tricks being pulled on fans, it seems. It's close enough.

3 years is not that long in comics for complicated stories to get
unravelled. People waiting for the conclusion to1963 have been waiting 17 years (as one of many, many examples).

It seems to me that the frustration you describe is from the comics medium's bad habit of explaining too much up front.

I suggest that setting aside such expectations and allow oneself to be surprised and entertained may be a more rewarding approach, rather than tracking and cross-referencing every detail. Rather than trying to cram everything into a single linear chart, why not look at this Neoclassic Legion and 5YL as two separate branches of the same tree? Sharing a common trunk and growing out in different directions?

For the most part, I'm not reading posts by people wanting every detail presented upfront or wanting every detail to fit exactly perfectly. They just want stories that make sense.

People are wanting a level of quality that includes some research (a comic book series is a continuing storyline NOT a one off with no past or future after all) that usually comes from an editor or a respectful writer. And when they are presented with facts that differ from what's established, they want it to mean something to the story they are reading. Like clues to where the story is going and not like "being told everything upfront."

The fact is we've been subjected to sloppy writing and with plot points that don't go anywhere or mean anything for several years now. So, I think, the frustration is not only valid, it's warranted. We've accepted various retcons and reboots and now we're told that the "old continuity" is back only to have most of it be contradicted with each and every story we read in this restored universe.

What I don't understand is why some of us want people to just shut up and enjoy something they may or may not be enjoying just to make themselves happy cause they don't want to discuss the subject.

With that said, I do enjoy this series. I'm not as bent out by what Paul is doing as I was with Geoff and James. But, I do want some research and some quality checking done, though.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Of course it was respectful. No character was retrofitted or a huge chunk of history was deliberately erased (like 5YL has been). Fact is: retroboot was decided upon Geoff's personal preference. Nobody in this forum has even been able to explain WHERE the cut was made! Magic Wars? Crisis? 5 years later? None of them?

5YL is VERY clear on what it did: it took 5 years later and, on DC's editorial pressures, had to change things a bit (basically, erasing Superboy and getting on with it). Even with Glorithverse and the return of Mon-El, there was every attempt to say the past was all canon. The twist on Proty, the ordeal of Sun Boy (brilliant story by the way) was pretty much consistent with previous continuity (like it or not). Durlans becoming shapeshifters AFTER 21st Century is COMPLETELY contradictory: it denies Invasion, LEGION, REBELS and even recent issues of Superman!!! New Durla? That's way further from what originally happened.

There is a big difference in adapting things to new times. This is a new timeline, like it or not. It's not the original team, it's not even the original PREMISE for the team to exist. It's pretty clear (to me) that it is a similar universe to the original Pre-Crisis one, except that everything can be different and it will not be really contradictory because you can always shout Infinite Crisis.

I'm open to the common trunk approach. I'm also very open to enjoying a series that is a different version from the original concept but still inspired by it. I can enjoy various versions of Superman movies and television projects that contradict one another. I don't expect the Superman or Wonder Woman stories that I read in comics today to line up with the continuity of the adventures of these characters from 20 years ago.

The difference here, is that we were told, on more than one occasion, that the current Legion would be a return to the original. That wasn't an approach I ever wanted. To quote the old Debbie Harry song, "I don't like flashbacks in movies unless they tell what the future will be." What we were told has evolved into "based loosely on" previous continuity. That's a legitimate approach.

Given the set up, I think it is legitimate to ask questions like:

1) Why is Brainiac 5's personality so different?

2) Did the battle with the Time Trapper happen?

3) If so, what inspired it?

4) What is the current team's relationship with Supergirl? How does that relate to Supergirl's interactions with the threeboot team?

Ricardo also raises a good point about the apparent de-aging of the team. Personally, I would rather read about a teenage version of the team. We had that with the reboot and the 3boot.
It just feels odd to have the older, more grown up team introduced as Superman's contemporaries, and then to see their ages kind of rolled back.

Again, none of this derails the current book. However, they are all legitimate concerns. It's perfectly reasonable for posters to raise these issues and discuss their feelings about them. That's my only point. I'm getting a bit of a vibe of a backlash toward some posters for raising these types of questions. I'm encouraging them to keep raising these points, because I think they matter.

[snip]

Well, yes and no. I assume that there must be other fans who actually came back to this series of stories more or less "cold" regarding what's been going on for the last decade or so. I mean, I can't be the only one, right?

But I do get that the bait-and-switch is frustrating. I'm just trying to concentrate on the continuity that's being created now, not so much on everything that I might have missed.

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What I don't understand is why some of us want people to just shut up and enjoy something they may or may not be enjoying just to make themselves happy cause they don't want to discuss the subject...

You've got me wrong, N. I don't want anyone to shut up. I'm just thinking that in a world where I can nip over to the IMDB and read pages and pages devoted to the gaffes and mistakes in various well-known movies and TV shows, well... these problems aren't all that unusual in mass entertainment, especially the serial kind. No matter how many groups of eyes look these things over, it seems like some mistake-- large or small-- always manages to get through.

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...But, I do want some research and some quality checking done, though.

To know more about why the editorial net doesn't work better at catching what to fans are pretty obvious mistakes, I'd have to know more about the nuts and bolts of the editorial process itself, I guess. Maybe somebody who follows Levitz on Facebook can ask him about this...?

The old series happened except for anything related to the death of Superboy (and possibly to to other parts of the DCU).

Items 2 and 3 are related to the death of Superboy so the answer is clear: they didn't happen unless we're specifically told otherwise, and we haven't been specifically told otherwise.

Item 4 is related to another part of the DCU. The fact that un-booting the Legion cannot automatically un-boot the rest of the DCU isn't something you can really blame on the Legion team. Anyway, all evidence from Supergirl #52 indicates that as much of Supergirl's preboot appearances as possible, including the Brainiac 5 romance and her death, are back. The threeboot happened too. The rest has to wait for Supergirl Annual #2.

The only one that's actually a question is #1. I'll freely agree that Brainy is out of character. But you're talking about it as if it's something typical, rather than being one of the two only serious inconsistencies Paul has written so far (the other was the Durlan stuff). Even then, it's still possible it has an explanation (notice the cockroach references).

Again, I think they are all legitimate questions. I disagree that the answers are clear.

Nobody has ever said that everything except issues related to the death of Superboy happened. I read Levitz's recent comments quite differently. He stated pretty clearly that he didn't see the point in telling the exact same stories again in Adventure. Doesn't the same apply to the main series? I prefer to think that the battle with the Time Trapper happened. I would like to know what inspired it.

I'm not asking that the rest of the DCU be unbooted. I don't consider the current version of the Legion to be an unboot. I see it as another reboot. I'm not blaming the current creative team. I'm asking them to give us a line here or there that explains some of the discrepancies.

If there is an explanation for Brainiac 5's personality change, I would love to read it. More to the point, though, I would prefer a nicer Brainiac 5. More old school Querl and less Vril.

That's it! Proty/Garth has been rebooted as Brainy/Cockroach!

While it crash and burned spectacularly, I have a lot of respect for how Shooter attempted to make lemons out of Waid's lemonade, rather than just say 'screw it' and create yet another continuity.

I'm giving Levitz the same benefit-of-the-doubt, for the most part, and hoping that he can either work with, or ditch, the various inconsistencies that Johns added to advance his own bring-back-Conner / bring-back-Bart / kill-all-GLs-so-Sodam Yot-can-be-'The-Last-Green-Lantern' storylines.

Levitz has the far, far harder job than Shooter did. He's trying to salvage the classic team, with decades of continuity, from the recent damage, while working around editorial mandates, while Shooter just had to craft some interesting stories using a team that had only been around for three years, didn't even exist in the standard DCU and didn't have to be consistent with 21st century plotlines, and didn't have that many fans (comparitively).

Shooter, in that respect, had it made, compared to what Levitz is trying to pull off here, since it seems like the writers over at War of the Superman were actively trying to dick him over at every turn.

"Oh, Titanians are really Lanothians now..."
Paul "Denied. There were Lanothians on Titan, but the Titanians aren't them. Hit me again."

"Earther were always xenophobic and hateful."
Paul "Fine, I'll mention that there were some evolutionary throwbacks like you back in the days when RJ Brande founded the team, even if the planet had been host to various aliens, including much-beloved legendary heroes, for TEN CENTURIES."

"Durlans couldn't shapeshift back them."
Paul "My slappin' hand is getting itchy..."

"Brainy has the personality of Vril, Dirk has the personality of Drake, Brek has the personality of Dirk, Chameleon Girl has hair, Sensor has forgotten why she changed her name and costume completely to make her abilities more effective, the rules about multiple members with the same powers are gone, and since the Legion will argue to kill Prime, the code against killing is gone too, and Brin & Ayla and Blok & Mysa are totally getting it on."
Paul "Don't make me come over there."

This doesn't mean it's a new timeline, it means that he can tell untold stories or stories from different perspectives. Just because the stories haven't been told before doesn't mean they will contradict continuity.

In other words, you "prefer" to believe something that causes a hole in the timeline, then you point to the hole in the timeline as evidence that it's a reboot. The only reason the hole is there in the first place is your preference to believe odd things.

You're saying that it's another reboot because there are holes in the timeline. But holes related to other DCU characters are unavoidable. Paul doesn't write those characters, so he can't fix those holes.