Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Adventure Comics #517 - SPOILERS

It happened well before. But I'm not mad because I think Imra's not showing enough devotion to Garth, I'm mad because it's a giant, gratuitous, retcon and it has the same effect as retconning in any other event that's that important to the character's lives but contradicts the spirit of what we already know.

And the mind-wiping part is less soap-operaish, but more significant.

This issue was another big throwaway issue for me. The big revelation was a <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Zatanna-as-Geoff-Johns-likes-it stunt</span></span> that would be controversial 5 years ago. It might be a way to show <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Imra as a husky sexy woman that will end up in bed with Earth-Man - so why not throw a bone in her past to make it more plausible?</span></span>.
Apart from that, the writing cringes on unsubtlety. Dialogue seems directed to a 14-year-old in the 50s (often direct,explaaaining everything and letting everyone knows that "my character is bi-dimentional, even though the issue might be morally complex".
Worse of all is Kevin Sharpe terrible, terrible lack of storytelling abilities. One needs to believe his un-dramatic effect by drawing <span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Esquivel throwing herself at some guy with a gun</span></span> as if he was doing some storyboard for a cough syrup advertising. How about page 8? What the hell happened on the second panel? Was she going back when one panel before she was after them?
In general, this is writing at Justin Thyme level (was it Paul Levitz in disguise???) and what was supposed to be a controversial issue looks to me controversial by being simply bland and heartless. It's almost incredible that it's written by the same guy who wrote so many wonderful Legion stories.

EDIT: I really don't care about the retcon. Sounds ok to me and not freaky at all. I liked all TMK "microchanges", and they at least wrote them well. Moreover, Giffen is gigantic in storytelling.

Set, it''s set soon after the founding of the Legion, right before they first met Superboy, so there's no cheating involved. Basically, it's two drunken 15 year olds engaging in meaningless sex after a night of barcrawling, culminating in a cowardly mind wipe to cover up the mistake. Imra vows to remain celibate thereafter. (What a laugh riot!)

Seriously, this was a putrid piece of garbage. Saturn Girl is already a laughing stock for her sexual shenanigans, this just reinforces it. Plus, she's now a creepy, mind-manipulating liar to boot. Adventure is officially DROPPED.

Uh oh!!!!

Oh, it didn't make any real sense sociologically, making them independent at 14 but it was the excuse the early writers used to make the Legion of children not have to have many interfering adults around.

Marla Latham was the only adult I remember that was shown mentoring or teaching anyone in the early days, and that was mostly Jo Nah, if I remember correctly.

And they ARE children at 14, I don't care what is said at DC.

I like the artist in the 5 pages I saw.
And maybe Titans have to wear the saturn symbol ALL of the time.
Originally in the early Adventure stories, Imra didn't show any special attachment to Garth.
It wasn't until after he died to save her that she became rather obsessed with him.
So, this version is spot on as far as I can tell.

I echo other comments; Rokk and Imra sleeping together in the early days of the Legion doesn't bother me THAT much...(I don't love it, but I can live with it)

Imra, she who won't even read a criminal's mind without there being no way around it, mindwiping one of her own colleagues? That's a horrible moment of mischaracterisation. Right from the beginning Saturn Girl has been known for being super ethical when it comes to her power, I just don't see her doing this.

I haven't read this issue yet but since I'm learning not to expect too much from this book I went ahead and read the spoilers anyway.

I don't get it. Is Paul trying to get this book cancelled?

With writing as hokey as it's been so far and with art that it's hard to find one nice thing to say about, the ONLY people who could possibly be buying this book are long-time Legion fans.

And yet Paul seems to be doing his utmost to piss off those same long-time fans with all these meaningless and annoying retcons and mis-characterisations.

At least now that I know this title is a complete car-crash I can enjoy it on that absurdist level but I'd much rather be enjoying it because it was a good, well-written/drawn comic, y'know?

I predict cancellation or massive change in focus/creators in this book within the next few months. In any event, the sales numbers here are going to start DIVING, without a doubt.

And that's a shame. This could be a great title.

Of course, a lot of that's been retconned out anyway, with the whole revelation that she secretly scans the mind of every Legion applicant.

There was also that time she used her powers to cause a million dollar robot to run amok.

That time she caused all of Smallville to turn against Superboy.

And the time she used her powers to get elected Legion leader.

And don't forget the time she used telekinesis, while you're at it. Early, silly, Silver Age stories are not good precedents. I certainly wouldn't want to see a story where Supergirl starts killing people based on the Poisitive Man story as precedent.

And the latter two were to save lives, anyway.

have forgotten that special feeling when you realized that they were treated with adult respect at 14 and were on equal level with what was considered "adults" that's partly why i fell in love with the legion when i realized that they were treated with that respect at 11 (my age then) that's a powerful image.

And again its the 30/31st century...why be bound by what's socially 'right' now?

By the way think about it..."i can risk my life against the fatal five, i can sacrifice my life in a sun eater, i can be held on a prison world, i can be allowed thru time...but i cant have sex cause that would be wrong for someone 14-15' Sorta like our "i can be drafted to a war and kill people, I can vote, I can drive a car, but i can't have a drink till 2 years after the fact"

That puts in some perspective about age in the 31st century now don't it???

Now let's focus on what the issue actually said about Imra's character in the postive way. Her line about "no one dying in her place again" should have people thinking about what she did when she got everyone to elect her as leader when Zaryan the conqueror showed up again. He was put there on purpose for everyone to make the connection.

First of all, she didn't wipe anyone's memory in the Zaryan story. Mind-controlling people to vote for her is a one-time thing. Mindwipes last years.

Second, she did what she did in the Zaryan story to protect everyone else. What she did in this story isn't believably based on a concern for everyone's welfare (even though that's how she rationalizes it).

Wow .... just read #517 and all I have to say is:

Saturn Girl really IS a space hussy!
Damn!!

See what I mean? Saturn Girl has been reduced to a bad joke that will always overshadow her accomplishments.

So does that make the mind-control thing "Better"?

Why isn't it believable? Its what she said...and she's not even mindwiping herself from memoring it...shows that she is being sincere if she's not trying to keep the truth away from herself.

It seems like it will to some...to me just shows me she's human and makes mistakes. And she had made them early on unlike what we originally saw.

They only question I have is "Why"? How does this advance the overall story or even Saturn Girl's character?

As distasteful as sleeping with Rokk is, if this was going to be introduced, I wish they'd left the mind wipe out, which goes form showing her as "green" and unsure of herself to unethical and manipulative (in a reactionary way).

Of several unpalatable options, I'd prefer if Rokk retained his memories, and they just never talked about it and then when things developed with Garth, they just kept it to themselves. As uncomfortable as that would be, it would be preferable to this and add some tension to the relationship.

I'll wait to see if there's pay-off, but I'm afraid there won't be any.

I'm afraid there will be, and it will be yet another bad check, with Rokk's relationship issues / breakup with Lydda having something to do with repressed memories of Imra or something, so Imra's impulsive act here goes on to mangle and corrupt 10 years of someone elses life.

'Cause, it's not a witch-hunt without the pitchforks!

The two of them just saying, 'Wow, that was a mistake,' and consciously choosing to never mention it again, would be a character *strengthening* moment for both of them. Human and understandable mistake made, responsible choice follows.

Instead, we get mistake made, followed by *irresponsible* choice, and, I fear, a ham-fisted 'Imra messed up Rokk's life and everybody gets to feel that it's totally justified when she gets called out on it' morality tale.

The little bits of tender and couple-y interaction we see in LSH 3, where Garth finds Imra and they agree to find their kids together, is just flat-out tainted by this new revelation.

What's the point of building up Imra in issue 1, and and making her likable, possibly doing the best job of that that's been done for years, only to sling mud on her? It's Superboy Prime all over again.

"Isn't this character the *coolest!* Oh wait, he's a complete dick, and symbolically represents the worst stereotypes of basement-dwelling internet-trolling Comic. Shop. Guy. fanboys! Haha, don't you look stupid for liking him!"

Will Garth and Imra come out of this with a stronger relationship? I don't care, because if they do, it will be because Garth forgave Imra for being a bad dirty girl, and I like that not at all.

Will there be nothing to 'come back from,' because Imra just mind-wipes anyone who finds out about it to maintain her secret?

I like that *even less.*

Haven't read the issue yet.
But, isn't it possible that she felt guilty, or panicked (she is young after all) after the fact and mindwiped Rokk without giving it a lot of thought?

Something else else that as she got older and began to understand her powers more, she talked to Rokk about it, and reversed it.
Then she vowed to not do something like that again.

Paul's a great writer and used a lot of sub-plots in his writing.
I'd give it a chance - this could be leading to something else entirely......or I could be entirely wrong and he just f***ed up big time.

While I question where Levitz is going with this - ie, will this be brought up in the present day stories or play out in some way in upcoming ADVENTURE stories - I have no huge problem with this. This is very very early in the LSH's history, she was not at all linked to Garth or anyone else, she was young, and she hooked up. None of that is questionable. Mindwiping, however, yes, that is questionable. But, she was young and she panicked. And it's not like she didn't essentially mindwipe Superboy after every adventure, so there's some tentative precedent, though this instance is absolutely selfish.

In any case, bottom line, this does not make me think less of Imra as a character at all.

Hmm... to keep with the Silver Age spirit, maybe the consequences of teenagers getting drunk and having sex should reflect the consequences appropriate to that era...

Maybe Imra has a period where she has to... er... go away and.... er... visit sick relatives for, say, about nine months or so.

Actually, I don't think that her mind-wiping Rokk was "absolutely selfish." She also did it, in part, for the good of the Legion. Just like she did in other established precedents.

I don't get it EDE, are you saying there was no space birth control in the silver age? Oh wait I guess this story retcons events from the pre-pill age (1963 maybe?).


Now my fun theory. Because there are two titles, Was this all done to introduce a mysterious villain in LSH v6?

You heard it here first true believers, A blonde guy with both magnetic and mental powers will ambush the Legion in v6. Someone left him on the steps of the space orphanage 9 months after the events of this Adventure issue. And he had a miserable childhood as an abused orphan at the hands of 'celibate' space clergy. Now with space access to information laws he found his birth mother and boy is he pissed.

On a serious note, When the retro legion began I warned present company that these weren't the same characters you knew any more than the reboot or threeboot versions, they just have more of the old continuity. Changing sensibilities in society, which are represented by the creators of comics completely preclude the possibility of going home again.

There were space-condoms, but only space-sailors and space-prostitutes used them, and properly raised young men and women didn't know about such things!

Hmm... someone with motivation to spacenap the Ranzz kids, perhaps?