Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Where did [blank's] run jump the shark?

Hey everyone,
On these boards I hear a lot about how DnA's run lost steam towards the end and how the post-zh Legion was good until such and such an arc, and I was wondering if everyone could tell me...when did anyone's run start to die?

Mostly I want to fill in my Leigon collection, but I'm poor and I don't want to pick up issues from a bad point in someone's run, I want to make sure I get the best books out there.

I will say this, I do have most of levitz's run and have up to issue 31 of the Baxter series.

So, where should I focus my collecting, and which issues should I leave for later?

For the Five Years Later run, get the first forty issues, and whatever annuals fit in there. Then stop.

For DnA's run, get the 'Legion of the Damned' sequence, Legion Lost, Legion Worlds, and the first, oh, twenty issues of 'The Legion'. If you like the first twenty a lot, you can get more; the rest of the series isn't bad; it's pretty good, really, just not as good. Some will warn you off the Keith Champagne issue and the four Gail Simone issues that finish off 'The Legion', but I liked them.

Buy Baxter # 32-50. Levitz had originally wanted his run to end at # 50, but was talked into doing another year-plus. This coincided with the return of Keith Giffen as both penciler and co-plotter. They gave the team horrible new costumes, killed the Emerald Empress, broke Shadow Lass' heart by killing Mon-El, and unleashed the vile Magic Wars, with one of the dumbest-looking and just plain dumbest villains in Legion history. Giffen's art is at its sloppiest-looking and most confusing.

I do have a sentimental spot for Baxter # 56, because it has a really good guest penciler (Eduardo Barreto) and Shadow Lass kicks ass. If you don't mind having a fraction of the bigger story, I'd recommend buying it.

I'm sure you'll get a variety of answers, but here's mine:

I'd say the first year or so of the post-ZH Legion, culminating in Legionnaires Annual #2, is by far the best. After that, there's a kind of gradual drop in quality until they split the storyline of the two titles when they send half the team into the 20th century. After that point, it's pretty much worthless, except for a few standout issues (I actually really like the "Golden Age Legion" and the "50s Legion" issues, for example).

As far as DnA's run, Legion Lost and Legion Worlds are the main things worth reading. The first few issues of their ongoing aren't bad, but they're kind of spoiled by the fact that it does get excrutiatingly bad within the first year.

Steph, do you know what kind of a minefield you're stepping into? You could poll every member of this board and discover that you either have to pick up every issue or forget the whole series! For my part, I differ from Matthew E in that I think the entirety of the DnA run, with the exception of the Legion Worlds mini, was pretty lame. I didn't like the art, didn't like the stories, and missed the kind of character work that used to be a hallmark of the Legion, especially in the early '80s. Legion Worlds was the exception to that given that it featured different, better artists, shorter, better stories, and a renewed focus on character. And all that went right out the window when the Legion started up.

Working backwards, the Archie or Post-boot Legion, was pretty insubstantial all the way through, but a pleasant enough read until DnA got their grubby hands on it. The post-Levitz or 5YL Legion jumped the shark about the time they spent six or so issues fighting dead people and then went "on the run." Levitz's Legion didn't so much jump the shark so much as slowly sink into the water somewhere in the vicinity of the shark. I'd say the issues from the beginning of his second run, in Legion of Super-Heroes 284, through about the early 40s of the baxter run are essential, though in the later part of that run are some less memorable stories.

I'd say the first fifty issues of TMK are worth getting, but it's kind of important that you buy them and read them in order. They're really confusing as stand alone issues. Well, I'd actually recommend buying the ones that feature Matter-Eater Lad first (#11, #14, #49), because those are the greatest issues of all time. But other than that, read them in order.

The last year of the Baxter series is pretty weak overall, even though the Magic Wars is better than a lot of people give it credit for.

I don't think anyone has mentioned them yet, but I REALLY enjoyed the first year of Tales of LSH, before they repeated the previous year's Baxter editions.

Legion Compendium (? history of, with art and articles contributioned by many?) is another must for me.


Post ZH, my preference is jumping straight to DNA's run, starting with the Secret Origins #2, then skipping to the Blight run up to and including Dream Crimes then play it by ear. Absolute musts for me are Lost, Worlds, Battista's Dream Crime, and Champaigne/Lightle's issue.

Few runs had these boards/mailbox exploding with favorite quotes and speculations from the issues quite like DNA or raving (or hating) full panels by Coipel and Battista. I also very much enjoyed Lightle's issues. Unfortunately, DNA committed the same violation that killed the present run. They were slow to tell the same earth invasion story time and again and left too many dangling plot points to be interesting on a month to month read.

Personally, I generally find ZH to DNA painful to reread but some issues like ME Lad's time with the sklarians are musts and I really enjoyed Barry Kitson's writing on Legends of Legion though I don't know if that's a popular opinion?

I agree with Director Lad that trying to find concensus on this issue is like stepping into a minefield. One fan's shark-jumping period is another fan's surfing-the-wave era. Still, perhaps some agreement in quality can be found.

Steph, I don't know if you want to go back even further than the eras already mentioned, but my favorite period would be the Bates/Cockrum and Bates/Shooter/Grell issues from SUPERBOY # 197-225 or so. When Mike Grell left, he was replaced by Jim Sherman, a capable artist who, unfortunately, was saddled with an inappropriate inker, resulting in very cartoony and bland art -- a big letdown after the stylized and dynamic work of Dave Cockrum and Grell. Paul Levitz also came in as writer during this period and, though he later emerged as the definitive Legion writer, his early efforts showed his inexperience: so-so villains and too much emphasis on intergroup bickering (Levitz must have been reading Marvels at the time). There are some gems during this period -- notably Jim Starlin's arc (S/LSH # 239, 250-251) and the Earth War (# 241-245), but I remember the period as being characterized by substandard stories or art, if not both.

At another time, I'll post my recommendations from the ADVENTURE issues. Does anybody else have any thoughts on those?

Lightning Lad revealed as Proty. Biggest f'in shark jump in history. Makes Fonzie's jump look like he stepped over a small puddle.

I didn't mention the Adventure Era, because I know Steph's been reading those in the Showcase, but it occurs to me that the Hamilton/Siegel Era is possibly the only one that actually gets progressively better as it goes along, culminating, of course, in the Super-Stalag of Space!

Shooter's half of the Adventure run is actually pretty consistent, though the best stories are probably weighted towards the beginning.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with you anymore on that Shooter comment EDE. I've grown to really like Shooter's last Adventure stories. It doesn't matter though...pretty much the quality of all of his stories, early or latter dwarfs 75% of other Legion material.

I'd follow He Who Wanders and say the Earth War (# 241-245) and then #250-251 are excellent, but then the quality continually drops for some time until Levitz takes over. Avoid Gerry Conway issues like the plague until you reach the point where you think 'well, I love the Legion so I'll read just about any Legion story'.

I'm not sure Levitz run ever jumped the shark IMO. The quality got slightly shabbier towards the final issues of his run, but I am definately not one of those posters that thinks Magic Wars was terrible.

TMK was great until about issue #50. I even enjoy #40-50, but I have to say, the real quality stories of TMK, the ones that are so good that it makes you glad to have the functions in your brain that allow you to read, are TMK #1-38.

The Reboot Legion was excellent until the Cho Sting and though the quality did not drop off noticably right away, you can see it gradually doing it from there. Like EDE says, by the Emerald Vi/splitting of the two teams, it was horrendous.

DnA jumped the shark around the Timberwolf vs. the Fatal Five story, though the quality of the previous few issues wasn't up to par as they recycled the same plots over and over. Avoid Dream Crime and the Darkseid mess. I actually enjoyed Gail's four part story and Keith Champagne's issues.

Can't say I'm too thrilled with the current run and when it jumped the shark. Other than the beautiful art, I can't really justify why they rebooted again to *this* Legion in my own head, despite feeling that the Reboot Legion had some serious problems that I could not come to terms with in accepting them as legitimate. All and all it makes me wish for the true, real Legion pre-TMK.

Yeah, I was a little iffy on that comment myself. I guess I was just thinking that most of the stories that people always cite from Shooter's run are near the beginning, but you get a lot more character-driven stuff towards the end. Some of my favorite stories are actually from Shooter's Action run.

The first Legion jumped the shark at issue #300, which happens to be one of my favorite stories of all time. It was no doubt necessary to satisfy to the darker and more adult sensibilities of readers of the 1980s, but by laying aside the shining vision of the Silver Age, it also marked the beginning of the end of the "original" Legion.

For me, the Levitz/Giffen era started to jump the shark when Giffen's art style became weird, with the Omen and the Prophet storyline (# 307-310). Come to think of it, that entire story was a mess, as well. Still, Levitz recovered with different artists (Terry Shoemaker, Dan Jurgens) for the rest of the TALES OF THE LSH run, before that series reverted to reprints with # 326. Some of those stories, such as the Wildfire/Dawny arc, were exceptional.

But by then, Levitz's attention was diverted to the Baxter edition (LSH, v.3), and there was a sense of him marking time in TALES and of being spread too thin in v.3. The LSV arc that inauguerated that series was overblown and forgettable -- other than Val's death, which seemed unnecessary. Few of Levitz's other stories from that era really stand out to me, other than "Brainy's Lucky Day," Star Boy leaving, and the Universo arc. These stories explored certain characters in new ways or contained surprising developments, much like the early Levitz/Giffen issues.

Volume 3 contained major storylines (Sensor Girl, the death of Superboy, etc.), but many of those seemed contrived and anti-climactic. As a whole, I remember that era as competent but not very exciting.

Levitz ran out of steam on and off, but would regain it for brief spells. The newsprint series 307-310 (Omen) and the "tales" run (314-325, I think) were nothing special; nor were annuals 2 and 3 of that run. Baxter series #39-45 were forgettable (annuals 2 and 3, too), as were most of that run after 51.

TMK 1-41 (with annuals 1-3) are generally worthwhile, although portions of a few of those issues were lame. The pre-Zero Hour Legionnaires and Valor side series were okay but generally bland; you're not miisnig anything with those.

Post-Zero Hour/pre-DnA, LSH remains good until #80, lukewarm through #100, tolerable through around #111 and awful until DnA (122, I think). Legionnaires followed suit: good through around #37-38 (I'm less certain of the numbering for this series), lukewarm to 57-58-ish, but this book stayed tolerable all the way through; DnA wrote 78 with Moy art, and this is a good transition to better times.

DnA started out on LSH 122-125 and LSH 78-81, and these are worth getting, although they are a mixed bag when one considers what the long-term implicatinos of these stories should have been. DnA excelled through L=Lst 1-12, L-Worlds 1-6, and The L 1-14.

DnA 15,16, 19-25 were okay, but lesser (story-wise); 17-18 was crap, and 26- were mediocre.

Feel free to Skip the 4-part Gail Simone story (35-38); it's a waste of trees. Unfortunately the Titans/LSH x-over that served as a finale to the Reboot era was all sound and fury; another waste of trees.

Regarding the ADVENTURE run: Jim Shooter's tenure marked a definite change in tone from the Siegel and Hamilton issues, but there were so many classic stories in Shooter's run, that I really don't think the ADVENTURE era jumped the shark -- until maybe the last few issues, from # 373-380.

Those last eight issues simply aren't memorable to me, no matter how many times I've read them. It probably doesn't help that Curt Swan had stopped drawing the book with # 372. (Two fans I've met regard Swan's departure as the end of the Silver Age Legion. I wouldn't go that far, but there is something lacking in those last eight issues.) Furthermore, the stories just aren't important: The Legion meets The Flash's descendents, fights the Scorpius and Taurus gangs, meets the Wanderers, etc. ... characters who do not make much of an impact on the Legion radar.

After # 380, the Legion moved to ACTION COMICS # 377-392, and then to SUPERBOY as an occasional backup series beginning with # 172 and culminating with their taking over the title with # 197. The stories in ACTION and SUPERBOY are short and usually focus on one, two, or three characters, so these stories didn't really have the chance to jump the shark. Most are dispensible, though.

Doesn't 'jump the shark' indicate a turn after which the show is never as enjoyable again?

I don't think the term really *can* apply to comics, or at least to the ongoing ones readers can reasonably expect to continue despite creator/character/tone changes.

Each era- except, perhaps, the ADVENTURE one- had low points with good to great issues and storylines after them. Unlike HAPPY DAYS, in which you could never really see the Fonz (who pretty much was the show) as all that cool after the shark-jumping incident, the Legionnaires haven't been so tarnished by any one story that succeeding stories haven't been worthwhile in any particular run. Individual readers would have plenty of tarnished moments after which their favorite character was never the same, but that's the strength of the Legion. No one character is absolutely essential to its ongoing success. Except for two.

For the LSH, the real shark is the editorial decision that Superman never met the group as a teen. That seemed to lessen the property in many fans' imaginations. Sales would seem to bear that out. I don't even think it mattered that a 'S' wearing character appeared all that often, as long as the *possibility* that they *could* guest star was there. As a LSH fan, I always *wanted* periods without panel-hogging Superboy and/or Supergirl. I can't deny, though, that time has proven that when it comes to sales, the Legion best prospers with one of the super-cousins involved.

As for low points for each run- the Conway issues, definitely, for pre-Levitz/Giffen preboot. The issues before MAGIC WARS were pretty depressing, but there was some great stuff there, too. Like the Emerald Empress issue. MAGIC WARS suffers from no denouement. Badly.

5YL? The first 12 or so issues are great, but then drop off badly, IMO, until the debut of the SW6 characters in issue #25. I enjoyed the run, more or less, till #51. After that- well, we see what happened. I'm hazy, though- did the Jacques/Infectious Lass scenes occur before or after #50? They were still enjoyable, at least.

Reboot? I liked it until Violet Empress, like many. There were things I liked about half the team in the 20th century, but on the whole, it was a wasted opportunity.

Once the team reunited, the titles really were bad. Wasn't there a change in editor about then? Things seemed rudderless for awhile. Though there were some good bits here and there (I liked the Elements of Disaster storyline, for one), this was probably the longest dry spell for the group since the Conway issues.

DNA? I liked WIDENING RIFTS, 10/12s of LEGION LOST, LEGION WORLDS and most of THE LEGION. I loved Batista's work, so DREAM CRIMES and the first half of FOUNDATIONS were stories I liked. They sure squandered all in the concluding issues of FOUNDATIONS, though. What were they thinking?
Hearing Chris Batista's summation of what DNA had in store after their hurried exit makes me think I really would have liked a year or so more for them. It would've made those 2/12s of LEGION LOST palatable for me. Oh, well.

I enjoyed Gail's run, though it wasn't without its faults, I agree.

One thing I'm sure of, it takes a few years perspective before you can *really* invoke 'the shark'.

I will echo what a few other have said.
Levitz ran out of gas about issue 50 of the Baxter series.
The TMK era was great up to issue 40 or so and then just ok up to issue 50 (the art on the Mordru arc was horrible in the mid 40's).
The reboot was good up until the team split in two. After that is started going down hill and never got better until DnA cam on.
DnA were great through the end of both series, Legion Lost, Legion Worlds, and Legion 1-16 or so. After Copiel left and they brought in Superboy the book was not good at all. Only good issue after that was proably the Lightle issue.

Well said, Mystery Lad.

You make an excellent point that "jump the shark" doesn't mean the same thing in comics as it does for television series.

You also make a good point about the importance of the Super-cousins to the team.

My interpretation of 'jump the shark' is that it's the point at which... not when everything starts to go bad, but at which things have gotten so good that they've peaked and there's nowhere for things to go but down. But I know that hardly anybody actually uses the phrase like that.

Many things people wrote I can second with some exceptions:

I consider most of the 70s issues with "Superboy and four accidental Legionnaires are living though a boring adventure nobody will talk about again" as very bad storywriting, and I think that even the highlights of that period - Stargrave and Earthwar come to mind - do not live up to what happened before and what came later on.

I really loved the more ongoing story-based elements which came after the Reflecto Saga, beginning with #282 til the Omen Storyline which was very strange. Baxter series started fantastic and was better than most parts of the 70s and the whole Reboot at any moment, even with Giffens strange costumes

I absolutely adored Giffens storywriting in 5YL all the way through Terra Mosaic. I can understand that many people hated the tidbits he had to add like Lightning Proty and Sean Erin. But the way he slowly developed the story, using nearly every character there had ever been in Legion History including the Substitute Heroes was ahead of its time back then.

As for the Reboot, I really hate the fact that these issues take so much space in my rack because most of them really are absolutely bland. I recently took them all out and the only storylines I could remember at all were the "White Triangle" and "Emerald Vi", which is not much in over seven years (I stopped buying it aroung #100). The issues playing in the 20th century with Brainiac 5 getting an ape (!!!) are especially bad.

As for DnA, I returned to the book when they came onboard and stayed - their first storyline "Legion of the Damned", the two Minis and the first 15 or so issues of the regular were fun (considering the fact they played in the Reboot universe). When they had the brilliant idea to do even more time traveling and return some Superboy to the book, it went downhill. Really good idea to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

The new Threeboot never went bad - it was bad from the beginning and got slightly better when the Dominators plot started to evolve around #18 or 20.

If you don't have much money, I would save it for the classic issues from the 80s and sooner 90s. As somebody said before, the 5YL run only makes sense when you have a complete run - but then, I consider it to be a very sophisticated approach to the Legion and would strongly recommend it. It takes you double of the time to read a 5YL issue than to read another regular comic book - there's so much text and information in it.

There was another Titans/Legion cross-over mini that came out around the same time as Legion Lost, I think. What's the prevailing opinion on that one?

You're talking about TITANS/LEGION: UNIVERSE ABLAZE, a prestige mini-series, Daxamite Kid. Most of it, I thought, was very good, though it altered Universo's origin in a way that seemed only done for shock value (and which was mercifully forgotten when Universo reappeared in LEGION). Also, the ending was a major letdown, amounting to all-too-typical "hit the reset button" cheat.