Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine Calling all Transfans -- let's celebrate the Transformers

This would be a good place to segue into a discussion about Beast Wars and Beast Machines.

I've seen the first six episodes of BW Season One and all thirteen episodes of BW Season Two. I didn't see them until almost ten years after they premiered, and one thing I came away with is how primitive the computer animation looks, especially compared to how much computer animation has evolved in the years since. IMO the Gen 1 animation even at its worst has aged better than the BW animation.

I give the writers credit for their attention to continuity and their ambitious structure with all the subplots from episode to episode, but it also has the effect of many episodes that don't work as stand-alones. That's why the one episode I really like is the only Season Two stand-alone, "Transmutate" (which is, incidentally, written by my heroine, Christy Marx.)

I haven't seen any episodes of Beast Machines, and until now I hadn't heard anything positive about it. Straya, I would be intrigued to know what you found good about that show. Also, what exactly is the Transformers Legends anthology and is it still in print?

Before I make a full reply, here, can I just say that you are a total joy to converse with? You're coherent, contemplative and you can disagree without bashing the hell out of something. People like you are tough to find.

Anyway, Beast Wars!

I definitely agree that some of the BW animation didn't age well at all, mostly the first season stuff. Compared to Beast Machines, it is seriously primitive, since it lacks the more detailed rendering and even basic cast shadows. The series did have a few really good stand alone eps, though, and I agree that "Transmutate" was definitely one of them. Who would have thought that Silverbolt and Rampage would vie for the same thing like that? Interesting contrasts and comparisons between two characters who, on the surface, are as different as night and day.

I also got a real kick out of "The Low Road", though I'm not sure most fans liked it as much as I did. Some parts of it, including the chase with Dinobot and Rattrap after Tarantulas for infecting Rhinox with an energy depletion virus were almost Looney Tunes-sque, but I liked the energy and the comedy break from overall drama. You can tell it was one of those episodes the staff had way too much fun with.

I would definitely encourage you to watch all of BW season 3, as that's where most of the fecal matter hits the oscillating device. Simon Furman did have a hand in the final episode, however, so expect some death.

I typically describe Beast Machines as being a collection of really great, dark concepts that just didn't get executed very well. The series also presents the continuity issue of Cybertron being purely organic at its core, which even I don't really buy into. I'm very much of the "Cybertron is Primus" school of thought; I don't even care for the Gen1 cartoon Quintesson creation legend.

What I really do like about the series is that it forces species evolution; the Maximals become truely techno-organic lifeforms as the next step in the line. I'm still not sure how I feel about their transformations, which are more like shifting/morphing sequences, however. It is presented in BM that the original Cybertronians had to teach themselves how to transform which I do NOT care for because Gen1 canon leads us to believe that the ability to transform is completely natural, even instinctual. But with their newly reformatted bodies, which are very different than what they are used to, it does make sense that they have to learn to balance their logic with their instinct in order to achieve robot mode.

Optimus Primal as a leader takes a quick fall in BM due to what can only be called religious fanatacism in the Oracle; he is blinded by misinformation. The silver lining, however, is that Cheetor gets his chance to mature and lead the pack. And he learns that because he is his own person, he can't always emulate Primal. He needs to come into his own to be the leader the others need him to be.

BM is the only TF series I know of that seems to be a commentary on religion and spirtuality, delving into the importance of individuality despite the consequences of chaos as a result. Some of it really could have stood to be explained better and if you're not following carefully, you can get left in the dark about where and what the Matrix is for that particular series. At one point, my roommate and I were going to start a forum based RPG based on BM to try and run through the basic plotline, but straighten it out and develop it more in the process.

To my knowledge, it's out of print, but you might be able to find it on Amazon or Ebay. Or I can keep an eye out for it here, if you'd like.

The book was edited and the intoduction written by David Cian, who wrote the second and third novels in the Transformers Hardwired Trilogy (which if you can stomach the first book as written by Scott Ciencin, isn't too bad). Cian states that none of the stories in Legends should be considered canon, but there are definitely a handful of short stories that are worth reading, my favorite of which is a very good Ratchet-centric story about how he teams up with a human ex-military field medic (author J. Steven York). The book is not entirely Gen1 related, though, so there are a couple of stories mixed in from the Beast Wars, Beast Machines and Armada continuities. There's even one story where four of the Primes all end up "dead" and somehow meet up in the back of Maccaddam's Old Oil House.

Thank you. That's very kind of you. The feeling is mutual.

I'll definitely track down BW Season Three. I may have mixed feelings about BW, but there's no denying that BW Season Two ended with one heck of a cliffhanger.

Sounds intriguing. On the topic of TF and religion, I'd be interested to know what you think of the Gen 1 episode "The God Gambit". It's a personal favorite of mine for the way it works as an analogy for The Powers That Be turning religion into a show motivated only by greed and power-hunger.

Is this thread only for the cartoons or are the toys included. I have quite a bit of info on the early days of the TF toys, their link to Microman and GI Joe and, while I did not work on the Palisades TF line directly, I do have some Pics of unproduced pieces.

The toys are included, so by all means, please share this info.

I'll start with this tease:

Full version of Quintesson

The work was done by Bryan Wilkinson as part of Palisades Toys line of TF statues. Palisades had received a license to make statues based on the designs seen in the DW comics. Their War Within OP is incredible and the Arcee design is one of my favorites. Quintesson was commissioned for design but never went into production. The faces were to be a separate piece that sat on the pedestal / tentacles and could be rotated to show any of the designs without the need to move the entire statue. Palisades Toys was one of the unfortunate casualties of the Musicland bankruptcy. Musicland owed them a rather large sum and their own cash flow was weak, when it was found they would not get paid they were forced to close their own doors.

OK my little Shermans, set the Way Back machine for 1964, the year that Hasbro introduced the world to a new thing called the Action Figure. GI Joe was a 12" male military figure for boys to play with. Now fast forward 6 years and move to Japan where toy company Takara is looking for a new idea. Instead they buy a license to make the Hasbro Joe body and sell it in Japan. This does not go over well as to any parents still remember WWII and don't want their kids getting military schemes in their heads. Takara went back to the drawing board and offered Henshin Cyborg in 1972, A robot with a clear humanoid body, Henshin Cyborg still used the GI Joe body style but came with vinyl costumes of many different Sentai heros and sold well but parents still had a complaint - The 12" figures were too big for the small, crowded Japanese homes. Takara again went to the drawing board and came up with Microman in 1974, a 3" tall alien space traveler that had become trapped on earth. The created a 3.75", very articulated body. This was the first time a figure had been attempted at this scale and when Kenner toys released their Star Wars figures at the same scale in 1977 it became the standard for the industry, the most used scale to this day. The Microman line became very popular and vehicles were added. Sence the premise behind the line was this was an alien who existed in our world and was 3" high Takara made many every day items that Microman had converted to his own needs. Microscopes and Cassette decks could become Labs, Bases, or robotic helpers. Takara move the lines emphasis to these changing figures in 1978 with Micro-Change. Now, back in 1976, a US company called Mego bought the license for Microman and released the figures in the US as Micronauts. The toy line was the top seller in 1976 and was second only to Star Wars every year until its end in 1982. Takara saw this success in the US and wanted it for themselves. They brought Micro-Change to the US and, having no understanding of the US market or North American sales and marketing techniques, it failed miserably. Hasbro, already having a business relationship with Takara took a look at the designs and asked if they could take a crack at the US market with them. The Micro change figures, with all new colors, names and backgrounds, became Hasbro's Transformers. The line became an instant hit with kids in the US and Takara even started repackaging Micro-Change as Transformers in Japan as well.

And now you know... And Knowing is half the Battle.

This is a VERY abbreviated version of the Pre Transformer History. At BotCon 2004, Fumihiko Akiyama offered an incredible look at the events and designs that led to what we now know as Transformers. Fumihiko-san's original notes for that speech were translated and edited by Douglas Dlin and I have posted the complete transcript at Go! Figure

Primus on a pogostick... Well, that would explain why the Pallisade Wheeljack figure costs a bloody arm and a leg. I've seen it online, but it's damned expensive. The guy who did design work on the one is over on Deviant Art, I believe (I think I have some of his work faved).

Great Quintesson image, btw. Thanks for posting it! Despite looking wicked, though, I still can't help but hate the buggers. LOL. What a bunch of troublemakers. XD

So I just finished opening up all my boxes and decorating my new living room up here in my new apartment in Huntsville today. Up on the mantel above the fireplace are: Optimus Prime, Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Jazz, Prowl, Bluestreak, Hound, Ravage, Bumblebee, Cliff Jumper, Grimlock, and Slag.

They're beautiful. I'm quite pleased.

More later!!!

Sowhat does everyone thiunk of the new Classics line from Hasbro? I think Megs and Prime are great. Grimlock, one of my fav G1 next to Tracks gets the Classic treament also and I am less then pleased.

I'm really digging the Classics line so far. I have Astrotrain, Bumblebee, Grimlock, Megatron, and Starscream at the moment. Bumblebee is such a fun (not to mention cute) figure it's practically a crime. While I agree Grimlock is kind of disappointing in bot mode, I think the beast mode rocks.

Prime and Megs are great.

Starscream transformers perfectly. So does Mirage. Excellennt transformation.

Astrotrain and Grimlock have to be disappointments in the bot mode, but I do agree that the best mode is fantastic.

Kid Prime, thank you for bumping up this thread. I know I haven't posted anything here for weeks, but right now I'm focusing on the All Avengers Thread. I will return here eventually.

I can't believe nobody's posted the link to the newest Transformers trailer yet.
I assume we've all seen it and it looks unbelievably sweeeet !





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Also I made a photoshopped wallpaper of Optimus I'm using as a desktop at the moment.



This movie is gonna make me feel like a little kid again I think!

I hope it does the same for me.

Fall of 1984... I came home fairly leisurely from school and turned on the TV for some after-school cartoons. I don't remember what I was expecting to see on the tube that afternoon, but what I got was Wheeljack and Bumblebee speeding down the streets of Cybertron, being chased hotly by some Decepticon jets before finally making it to the safety of Iacon.

Was it the voices, maybe? Certainly the talents of Peter Cullen, Frank Welker, Scatman Crothers, and Chris Batta had something to do with it. I think also it was the fact that for such a simple kid's cartoon which was essentially a 30-minute cartoon for the toyline, there was a sophisticatedness to the plot and theme which... well, didn't have to be there. The longing in Mirage's voice for his home on Cybertron was compellng, as was the joy in Hound's discovery of Earth. So many seeming contradictions which wove themselves into lines that were almost throw-aways...
"For someone who doesn't like fighting, you're not bad, Mirage."
"But we're not fighters like they are, Prime."
"Everyone has a weakness. Yeah? Well, not Megatron!"
There was a sense of desperation in the Autobots' search for energy at the beginning of the first miniseries, a sense that it was their very last chance to pull a victory from what looked to be a sure defeat. I think that was something else that was provocative about the Transformers, at least in the beginning: the fact that the Decepticons were winning, and by quite a bit. And it was that search for energy that led the Decepticons to Earth. All of a sudden, the tables were turned... it was the Decepticons who were seeking to drink the earth dry of its resources. No wonder Optimus Prime felt such a weight of responsibility to protect the people of earth, for Megatron's unquenchable thirst for energy was the dark mirror to Prime's quest which brought them to Earth in the first place. And was there ever a home planet more cool than Cybertron? It seemed like every time the layers of mystery on Cybertron were pulled back a bit, the mystery just deepened and became more rich and enticing. And how neat was it that the Transformers lay dormant in the Ark for 5 million years?

That incredible voice work. A rich plot. Great and mysterious backstory. Characters that were beyond cool. Toys that, to this day, stand up as possibly the greatest toys ever produced.

Yup, I ran home from school the next day so as not to miss a single second. I was hooked. And 22 years later, I still am.

"AUTOBOTS! TRANSFORM, and ROLL OUT!!!!"

I remeber all of that.

I wish I had bought the seasons of Transformers on DVD when it was first released.

Guess I will wait until the movie comes out and we get merchandising out of the wazoo.

Merchandise, schmerchandise. Real fans go a step farther. You Tube Video Transformer Video

My very favorite thing I've found on the 'net this weekend: Lil'Formers!!!

Okay, the images didn't post. Go here: Lil\'formers! They\'re cute!!!

Nights like this, I LOVE the internet.

Funniest thing I have seen in awhile.

Also, I just ogt the classics Jetfire. That toy rocks. 4 MODES--JET, SUPER JET, ROBOT, SUPER ROBOT. He's an awrsome toy in both modes.

Thank you for that wonderful, heartfelt essay, Kid Prime.

There are still some important behind-the-scenes people I haven't mentioned yet.

I'll start with the most unsung of them, Floro Dery. The production designer on the G1 cartoon for the entire first season and the early episodes of the second season, Dery's groundbreaking work made the Transformers the sleekest, most expressive, most fluidly mobile robots seen in animation up to that time, to say nothing of his stunning industrial-nightmare designs of the planet Cybertron. When he left the show to work on the Transformers animated movie, a decline in design quality is visible in new characters starting with the Aerialbots and Stunticons, the robots looking boxier and stiffer than before. Dery designed all the characters introduced in the animated movie, and it's telling how much better these characters look than most of the ones introduced during the third season, which Dery didn't work on at all following an acrimonious split with the show's producers. Compare Dery's work with that of others in Beast Wars, in the recent Japanese shows, and in the upcoming live-action movie, and Dery's work looks even more ahead-of-its-time today than it did back in the 1980s.

No offense Stealth but I've heard from various sources that Mr Dery has often exaggerated his influence on Transformers.

Anyway changing the subject to something more on topic, the closer the release date to the movie comes out the more I feel a sense of dread about it. I want it to be a big success like everyone fave Robots in Disguise deserve but each new nugget of info leaves me less and less enthused about it.

And just HOW exactly was my post off-topic?? Seriously, I'm trying to give credit to people who worked on my favorite cartoon that the general public may not be aware of. And I have a major problem with the tone of your reply. I don't like being patronized, so DON'T do that again!

As for Dery exaggerating his influence, I wouldn't put that past him, because I am well aware that he has a big ego. What I said in my previous post (which I'm not even sure you understood) is that I think the look of the show rose or fell in direct proportion to his involvement or lack thereof. That, to me, says it all.

And as far as the live-action movie goes, I have realistic expectations for it. If it provides decent popcorn thrills, I'll be satisfied. Really, the main draw for me is that Peter Cullen and Frank Welker are reprising their voice-over roles as Optimus Prime and Megatron.

I completely understood your post, and I'm sorry you were offended but your reading more into my post then what's there. I wasn't trying to say you were off-topic or be in anyway patronizing, I guess I should of phrased my post better. You can see by the timestamp that it was posted very early yesterday where I was just off a very long work schedule where I got little rest. Again I'm sorry and I hope we can put it behind us.

In Transformers news I bought Cybertron Defense Red Alert yesterday and he's really keen. I now one the complete Cybertron Defense team and some cool toys they are. Scattershot is still my fave of the group though.

The bit about Floro Dery is very interesting to me, though. Particularly, the fact that he is responsible for the movie Transformers. I would agree that he had a very clear, anime-influenced vision, though one thing I think lacked in the Movie Transformers was the quality of a lot of the toys, and I think his designs have to be partially to blame for some of that. It's pretty obvious to me that many of the movie Transformers were reverse-engineered from the admittedly-fantastic animation designs, which is why, in particular, you have toys of Galvatron and Wreck-Gar (both awesomely designed for the cartoon, by the way) which basically change from a formless blob to another formless blob.

It would very interesting to me to see what the current designers of the fabulous remake line would do with toys lile Cyclonus and Scourge. I bet they would rock.

It's also pretty obvious to me that Mr. Dery had a lot to do in Season 2 with folks like the female Autobots and Alpha Trion.

Actor Lad, I accept your apology, and yes, we can put it behind us.

I agree. The episode which introduced all of the above was, chronologically by order of production, the last one that seemed to have a clear contribution from Dery. That's yet another reason why it's one of my favorite episodes.

The next person who deserves more credit is Wally Burr. He was voice director for not only Transformers, but also Jem and G.I. Joe and all the other Sunbow/Marvel/Hasbro 1980s cartoons. Burr is highly controversial -- the writers loved him because he made their scripts come alive like no other voice director, but many voice actors (as well as the people who represented them) were frustrated and exhausted by Burr's time-consuming perfectionism. Yet in retrospect, Burr's work is an important turning point in the history of television animation. He was a bridge between the Pre-1980s ultra-campy voice acting and the Post-1980s more naturalistic voice acting. I think the cartoons Burr worked on are a perfect balance of both approaches, and I feel that, in recent years, the pendulum has swung too far in the naturalistic direction -- for example, the one time I tried to watch the Justice League cartoon, I thought that the voice acting was wooden. I'm sure there's a sentimental factor involved (its inevitable that adults would think that children's entertainment was better during their own childhoods), but I really do miss the gleeful, irony-free scenery-chewing of 1980s cartoons. And nobody made it happen better than Wally Burr.

EDIT: I just did some searching, and it seems like Frank Welker doesn't have the role of Megatron sewn up yet. The confirmation cannot come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.