Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION The Anywhere Machine Lost Season Five (Spoilers Aplenty!)

I have to admit... I actually lost a lot of respect for Kate last night. I mean... a New Kids on the Block lunchbox? I thought you were better than that, girl.

Give her a break, man--she was just a kid, then!

Still kinda digesting everything that happened in the finale. I liked it more than last year's, for sure. Everything just seemed too predictable and obvious for that one.

I was surprised from the get-go here as I was not expecting to get such a good look at Jacob after all this time. I found myself liking him, though, and felt he had an inherent goodness about him along with the feeling he carried a horrible burden. My feeling is the being who manipulated Locke and Ben in the past may have been Jacob's adversary all along masquerading as Jacob.

Any thoughts as to where last night's finale might rank among the five we've had so far?

But... but.. where's Claire? Wasn't she supposed to be with Christian at Jacob's cabin? I was really hoping we'd see her before season's end.

Yeah, I thought we might see Claire, too, but I guess it woulda been hard to fit in under the circumstances.

Unlike Eryk, I didn't see the Locke reveal coming at all until I realized they were dumping a body out! D'oh! I commented to my wife early in the episode that I bet they wouldn't show what was inside until next season! At one point I speculated aloud that it was another nuke...:embarrassed:

In any case it was a surprise to me, and I enjoyed its impact last night!

i was also thinking a nuke, and saying to my brother it was the nuke they sent through in 79. But of course that was not the case, stupid stupid me.

Juliette kicking ass on that sub!
Yowsa!

Wow...this thread has been relatively quiet after a finale, including no posts from Cobalt! Is it possible Des hasn't seen it yet and is avoiding the thread for spoilers?!?!

I thought it was great myself, but did it leave some of you cold? Speak!

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of it.

The big question now is whose strings are being pulled by whom. Is Widmore on Anti-Jacob's side, since Bram tried to talk Miles out of working for Widmore? But Jacob also seems to want the O6 to return to the Island, but then so does Anti-Jacob (witness non-Locke relaying of a message to real Locke about bringing everyone back).

Yeah, I'm with EDE here. For the past two seasons, we've been seeing the central struggle as being between Widmore and Ben. Now Jacob and anti-Jacob are clearly an important pair of opponents - are Widmore and Ben (whether knowingly or not) on opposing sides of that conflict? Or would they be on the same side, but are in conflict with one another within that? This sets everything on its ear, possibly more so than any of the twists we've seen before. I'm not sure what to make of it.

And what is the significance of Jacob meeting everyone off the island? If everyone's Jacob flashback happened before they came to the island, I'd say that he's the reason they're all somehow connected, but Sayid and Hurley didn't (to our knowledge) meet him until afterward. And will we ever find out the significance of those lists Jacob wrote, or supposedly wrote? The kids that Ben's Others kidnapped from the tail section, plus Walt? I can't believe that one more season will tell us everything we need to know to make sense of the plot that's built up until now, but I'm certainly pumped to find out - the wait for season six will be murder.

It was often very good, if not great. All the Jacob stuff was unexpected and surprising to me, and I'm not sure I've processed much of it. Plus, this is a REAL cliffhanger. I have no idea what will happen. I'm glad Jack and Sawyer kind of had it out about Kate, but I'm not sure how much I care about those relationships. All 3 characters are more interesting to me when NOT interracting with each other. And something about Jack's character has really gone off the rails for me in the 2nd half of the season. Maybe I can't buy the idea that he now has good instincts and is actually following them. A big part of me sympathized with Rose and Bernhard's retirement from the show's conflicts. I really do hope we see those 2 again, at least once. And the revelation about Locke has really troubled me--that he isn't Locke, and that our Locke is really dead, and that all the apparitions on the Island may actually have had a malevolent purpose. Finally, I can't stop thinking about the confrontation between Jacob and Benjamin at the end. Jacob basically eggs Ben on to kill him. Jacob's "What ABOUT you?" line was devastating, and he must have intended it to goad Ben on (or he's truly an idiot, which seems unlikely). Notice, BTW, that non-Locke kicks Jacob's body into the fire, something awfully reminiscent of the animal sacrific holocausts that were central to Temple-era Judaism. Coincidence? I think NOT.

Yeah, I kind of got the impression that Jacob wanted Ben to kill him, perhaps as part of a bigger plan (rouge's comparison with the Monitor seems apt). I'm thinking there must be more reason to bring Locke's body back to the island than what we've seen thus far.

I'm definitely thiking that it's going to be almost impossible for the show to even begin to tie up all of the loose ends next season.

And here I thoguht Ben was being a spoiled, ungrateful brat. Un-Locke's arguements to Ben seemd to goad him on, and when Ben challenges Jacob, he seems out of line to me.

I figured Jacob was the one that healed little Ben from a gunshot wound 30 years ago. Sure he's had to make a few sacrifices, and he's been lead astray by Jacob's Opposite, but in the end he owes Jacob his life.

DISCLAIMER: Spoilers within

You are correct sir! I was in Manhattan last week and finally got to watch the finale on Friday night (I made Lady Cobalt wait for dinner an additional two hours late just so I could watch it). I seriously was not communicating with my family or checking online so I wouldn’t be spoiled. I then spent the weekend digesting it and discussing my theories with my wife and brother.

First off, this was one of the best lost episodes they’ve ever done. And it was one of the best finales…I haven’t gotten this excited in the first five minutes since the finale of season two when we realized it was a Desmond episode. When I saw Jacob and Anti-Jacob (I love you guys for coming up with that moniker, I’ve simply been calling him “The Evil One”), I just about flipped out.

It also had maybe the best final seconds of any Lost episode ever. I really liked how instead of the traditional black, with the Lost logo coming out, they did a white one, coinciding with the flash and/destruction of everything (we know that’s not the case, but still).

I’ve got an exhausting amount of commentary to make, so I guess I’ll get right into it. I’ll try to contain myself, but I’ll likely end up all over the map.

Some general comments about the characters before I get into the major revelations and questions:

(1) Seeing Rose and Bernard was a pretty enjoyable and pleasant sequence. I also liked they tied in Vincent so we know at least what’s happened to him. Because they weren’t there when the hydrogen bomb went off, I don’t think they’ll ever return to the present and will be Adam and Eve, as we’ve guessed now for quite some time.

(2) The Sayid death I’ve been dreading was a pretty good bait and switch. I caught onto it though the minute Juliet’s flashback had no Jacob. That’s when I knew it would be her, and I don’t think she’ll have survived. We may get one final sequence with her at the start of next season. And with that being said, Juliette was freaking awesome, more so than ever before in this episode. And she really showed her acting chops in her final moments.

(3) The Jack/Sawyer fight sequence. I thought it was pretty damn excellent, myself. Both of them have come a long way, and Sawyer revealing to Jack what happened to him as a kid was telling. Sawyer has become a lot like Jack, and Jack a lot like Locke. I disagree about anyone who doesn’t find Jack engaging anymore, I think it’s the opposite. Jack has consistently been amazing to watch onscreen, and this season more than ever. Though he’s made mistakes, he seems as if he’s past that now. And he’s never lost his sense of ‘goodness’ about him. The fight was quick and brutal (re: realistic).

(4) Kate / Jack I thought had good moments. I like how she did stand by him in the end, even though their relationship is now finished I believe. I’ve always thought Kate should be with Sawyer but it won’t be easy for them to simply reconnect now. When Sawyer & Juliette first began to have moments together and we all suspected where it was heading, it seemed as if no one would ever like them together. Well, I’ll be damned…they did a really great job convincing us that was a great relationship on the show.

(5) Miles & his father ended up having several good scenes even if not together. Ever since Pierre Chang first appeared, I’ve been interested in him, and its only grown. But Miles seemed pretty annoying for a long time, but has also grown into a better character.

(6) Frank – I just love every line he has. What a great minor character.

Now, onto the fun crazy stuff. Its obvious Jacob knew he would be killed, and almost like there was no way he could get around it. His comments in the beginning were very telling of the entire series, and show a really interesting point of view in the struggle of good versus evil. Anti-Jacob believes he’s stuck in a loop, while Jacob says there is only one end, everything else is just progress. It says quite a lot about people blaming their actions on circumstances and not taking any accountability for themselves. Its all about choice, and deciding to do something. Its very strongly implied that they are God and the Devil, but that could or could not be the case, but I don’t think that really matters much. They both represent good and evil, and that’s enough to get that point across. “Choice” has always been the most major theme of Satan corrupting people, and that plays along very well here.

I also figured out what was in the box halfway through and was still blown away by the reveal. But I notice that it looked like Jacob has resurrected Locke after all, when he was pushed out of the window by his father—so perhaps Locke’s story isn’t done yet, after all? Maybe he’ll be resurrected once more.

Jacob lives in the statue, which made me wonder something else—where does Anti-Jacob live? His coming out of the jungle in the beginning was telling. There’s really only one place: the Temple. This makes sense, considering the Monster is the guardian of the Temple, and the Monster told Ben to follow Locke and do whatever he says. I don’t think the Monster is Anti-Jacob (though that would be pretty cool too). I think it might be his ‘agent’. Though, of course, the argument for the monster = Jacob have two strong pieces of evidence, one that Eryk already pointed out. (1) When the Monster spoke to Ben, Locke interestingly was off-camera for the entire time and they took time to show us this. (2) the murals on the wall show the monster almost battling the statue; in other words, Jacob vs. Anti-Jacob. I might have just convinced myself the monster is anti-jacob after all, but the one major piece against it is this: its all about choice. And the monster has killed people, whereas I think Anti-Jacob’s real power is corruption. He can’t kill people; he can only corrupt others to kil people. So he’s somehow corrupted the monster. Either way, we’ll know soon enough.

[EDIT after some online time - I've been looking at the depiction of the monster in its lair and its clear that its with the Egyptian God, Anubis, along with some snakes. Whereas the statue where Jacob lives is clearly Taweret, as lostpedia shows, as confirmed by ABC. Taweret is the Goddess of fertility, which could mean creation. While Anubis is an evil God. I don't think its as simple as Eygyptian Gods, and that Jacob and Anti-Jacob are clearly good vs. evil, God vs. Satan, Eygptian versions of creation vs. destruction, etc. But whats important is that Anubis clearly isn't Taweret but the opposite. This leads me to believe the smoke monster is being summoned by Anubis here, so its his 'agent' to do his bidding]

But going back to the Temple being where Anti-Jacob lives. Major plot threads have developed around the Temple. The first that a young Ben was brought there to heal. Which means perhaps Anti-Jacob was the one who healed him, and we all know that was the start of Ben’s corruption. So Anti-Jacob has not been corrupting Ben since Locke ‘returned’. He’s been doing it his whole life. Ben has been working for Anti-Jacob since the beginning, and he’s never known it.

It also is telling because the Others go the Temple often, and Richard is the one who brings him there. Which I believe shows that the Others, who have obviously always been meant to be Jacob’s followers, have been deceived and corrupted for the last hundred years+ by Anti-Jacob. Its obvious Widmore and Eloise are not good people; likely they were corrupted as well, which maybe helped lead to their banishment. I’m curious how that will all play out. But the Others were designed to help Jacob and ended up becoming unknowing servants of his enemy. Which is probably why Jacob never meant Ben—he knew.

Yet, Richard appears to have always worked with Jacob, and a lot of that is likely because Richard couldn’t understand all that was happening. But notice how Richard has never really let the power of the Others be too far from his grasp. He must have suspected in his heart.

I don’t think Richard is from Ancient Egypt, but rather was on the Black Rock. The reason is because that appears to be the Black Rock in the beginning, and Jacob is bringing them there. “Ricardos” to me sounds like a Spanish pirate. I’m curious if we’ll ever get a Black Rock episode. They land, and are gradually corrupted by Anti-Jacob, like the devil tempting Adam & Eve in Paradise. Richard either sticks by Jacob or commits the ultimate crime and asks for penance, and so he becomes Jacob’s eternal servant to pay for his crime. That will be a great story to finally see unfold. But I do think Richard has always been a servant of Jacob, and though he’s made mistakes, he must have always been the most cognitient of it. This type of episode could be when the Statue of Jacob is destroyed too, as a very symbolic move by the corrupted pirates.

Illyana and Bram…them I’m curious about. I almost thought they were ANCIENT. But we just don’t know enough to really speculate. Its obvious that others have come to the island before and a war takes place between Jacob and Anti-Jacob. This would be ‘loop’ Anti-Jacob refers to. It must always end with the people dying out, but they must have build the statue, the Temple, etc, and worshipped them as Gods, much like Ancient people truly believed they were interacting with Gods on an everyday basis.

I almost think the Anti-Jacob believes he’s broken the loop and finally found a way to kill Jacob. But Jacob is the master watch-maker…and he’s known all along this would happen and even realized he’d be killed…and allows it because it’s the only way once and for all to destroy Anti-Jacob. Therefore, giving humanity its own choice afterwards. In other words, he’s actually playing Anti-Jacob who thinks this is a loop; when its just more progress all along to lead to the end.

I do think Anti-Jacob is Christian. But I don’t think he’s every ghost: just look at Hurley’s talk with Jacob. Jacob tells him his ability to talk with his dead friends is a gift. Which leads me to believe Hurley can really do it. But meanwhile, I do think Christian Shepherd’s ghost is really Anti-Jacob. And his confrontation with Jack will ultimately be when Jack once and for all achieves an inner peace and gets rid of his ‘daddy issues’ (recalling the title to like episode #6, “All Cowboys have Daddy Issues”). Why would Anti-Jacob want Claire then, if he’s Christian. Simple: Aaron. I think the entire Aaron story is this—he’s either Jacob being reborn (considering time is a non-factor on the island), or he’s the ultimate third person among Jacob or Anti-Jacob, and can be either Christ or the Anti-Christ. But the Jacob reborn thing might be possible. So the fact that Aaron’s mother is under Anti-Jacob’s influence comes into play later.

I do think Walt and Aaron will arrive on the island soon. And Desmond will bring them.

Its all a lot of heady stuff, but I’m so enthralled by it right now!

I notice in the link that DC provided they believe Jacob may have caused Nadia's death. I don't think thats the case. I think he simply prevented Sayid's. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned later that Anti-Jacob, Widmore, Ben or another person caused it; but not Jacob himself. Its the creation vs. destruction angle.

PS - Anyone get a sudden wave of emotion upon seeing Charlie's ring? I felt like this episode had moments that reminded us of every season finale thus far.

PPS - "They are Coming" - The Losties sent forward from 1977 (even if they may stop along the way), assembled by Jacob to get to the island, or *get back* to the island, to undo the Anti-Jacob's work.

Forgive me for so many posts but so much of the show is coming together for me:

white / black

Ever since season one we've seen this dichotomy played up so many times. And now we have it. Jacob is blonde, dressed in more light-colored colors, while Anti-Jacob is dark-haired and dressed in black. Call it 'good vs. evil', 'white vs. black', 'light vs. darkness', whatever, but its all so thematic throughout the series.

It also kind of connects to the idea of twins, which once upon a time in Lost fandom seemed to be a popular theme to point out (often because of the book 'Bad Twin').

As www.lostpedia.com points out so often, the theme of deceptions & cons have been constant throughout the series. Anti-Jacob has been pulling the longest con of them all thus far. In fact, I'd suspect it will be apparent Jacob does not lie or decieve or use guises, while Anti-Jacob specializes in deception. Jacob also tells Kate not to steal (in fact, perhaps Jacob adheres to a specific 10 Commandments--considering Lost's obvious Old Testatment references for five years).

I got very nostalgic when the Others came into the Losties camp and Sun found Aaron's crib and Charlie's ring. I think part of me would have been happy having the Oceanic survivors hanging out in their camp indefinitely, slowly uncovering the Island's secrets. It's my 1960s/1970s TV imprinting. Kudos to the producers and writers for not settling into that kind of Gilligan's Island rut. But I miss all the characters who are gone (especially Charlie), and I even miss the anonymous group of other survivors, the ones who were all killed by the flaming arrows.

I do take exception to the idea of Anubis as an evil god -- even a casual reading of Egyptian myth shows that's not the case. He's a son of Osiris, and a partner to Osiris as the god of mummification. The only real "evil" god in Egyptian myth is Set -- personification of entropy, chaos, drought and desert, the forces Egyptian civilization fought to hold at bay as they clung to life in the valley of the Nile.

Hm, well maybe Anubis is there for another reason or that isn't Anubis at all. It doesn't really matter one way or another (its obvious to me that Jacob/Anti-Jacob are meant to symbolize classic interpretations of good vs. evil or other control vs. freedom, etc.).

Perhaps then the Anubis in the carving isn't the Evil One at all, but a clue to the Monster itself. Considering Anubis' association with the dead, the Book of the Dead, protecting souls, it could be a clue to how the Monster relates to the dead on the island.

Still, Anubis is considered the Ruler of the Underworld at one point in Eygptian history. I strongly believe Jacob and Anti-Jacob are not meant to solely be Egyptian deities, but rather, much broader concepts of good vs. evil (much like one might say Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God and may not realize it). So Ruler of the Underworld might equate Anubis to Pluto, Hades, and other such figures...who are much darker.

Thinking more on the symbolism of the Monster, if we're considering it as a servant of Anti-Jacob (*if* he's evil) or Anti-Jacob himself:

- To get to the Monster's room, one must descend downwards, much like one would descend into hell. (the Producers call that room a declivity, which is essentially a downward slope).

- The Blast Door Map called him Cerebus, which is what the Dharma Iniative referred to it as. Cerebus, as in guardian to the Gates of Hell.

- Its Black, like Anti-Jacob.

- It killed Eko, a Priest, and held him up like a cross.

EDIT
Some other thoughts on Anti-Jacob and "black":

- Locke was wearing a black hood when he first apepared 'resurrected'

- Christian has always appeared in black suits. If he's been manipulating Locke, that might make sense.

- Boone in Locke's vision from early Season Three (when he lost his voice) was very eerily in black (and his eyes/hair seemed darker). Was this on purpose? Was that Anti-Jacob?

Having though about it some more (I can't help myself ), I realize I didn't think of the obvious reason why Anubis would be there.

The people who put the carving on the wall, if they are Ancient Egyptians or some offshoot of them, would simply have believed Anti-Jacob was Anubis becuase he was a Ruler / Deity of the Underworld or something. It would be their interpretation of him, whether it was right or wrong. Just like you can't say Anti-Jacob is Satan; he's likely much more complicated and known by many different guises to difference people via their interpretation of him at the time.

That's my theory at least

I don't think the statue is Anubis. From the side shots we got, it seemed to have a crocodile head. And the hieroglyphs inside the statue seemed to me more crocodile than canine.

Looking at the Choice vs Fate arguements that have been highlighted so much this season, I don't know that Jacob and his opposite are life and death gods, but rather good and evil ones. Ask me again when I get home, and I'll have a couple of suggestions for Egyptian dieties that match the statue better than Anubis.

No, the statue is Taweret, as confirmed by ABC's producers.

The cave picture with the monster is almost definitely Anubis.

The idea of Jacob = Sobek and Anti-Jacob = Set would be more fitting, but perhaps not.

But I'm sure we're not supposed to think Jacob and Anti-Jacob are Egyptian Deities. They are what I think are deities worshipped by all cultures, just under different names. So essentially, yes, they could even be God or Jesus and Satan. Right here is a great place to see various religious references throughout Lost's history. I think there is a heavy Egyptian influence because the inhabitants several centuries earlier were Egyptian and that is how they interpreted Jacob and Anti-Jacob. The two are beyond such interpretations and much more complicated, I'd suspect.

Since I’m waiting for the rest of you guys to give me some further thoughts, I can’t help but want to post more, so I apologize for posting yet again to this thread (but know I don’t really feel all that bad )

What was revealed to us about Jacob in those brief scenes?
So we got some brief moments with Jacob but I think each one was incredibly carefully done by the director, writers and actors so that each scene carefully gave us some symbols. As I put above, I think Jacob is meant to represent a “God” / “Christ” / “Good” figure, who could all or known of those things, but obviously meant to be an agent promoting free will. I would wager Jacob represents creation, while Anti-Jacob represents destruction / evil / control & limitations / seduction & corruption / etc.

His blonde hair and light-colored clothing seems representative of the ‘white’ pieces and symbolism we’ve seen recurring throughout the show.

Jacob is scene catching a fish in the beginning; fish are perhaps the most widely associated symbol regarding Jesus Christ.

Jacob lives under the Statue of Taweret, as confirmed by the producers of ABC, so we at last now know what the statue is. Taweret is the Egyptian Goddess of Fertility (re: creation). Note that the problems in fertility on the island have been a theme of the show.

The Statue holds an Ankh, which has been shown numerous times in Lost. The ankh appears frequently in Egyptian tomb paintings and other art, often at the fingertips of a god or goddess in images that represent the deities of the afterlife conferring the gift of life on the dead person's mummy; this is thought to symbolize the act of conception. The Ankh is also a very early Jewish symbol, and is often heavily related to the beginning of monotheism. Note the loop on an ankh too…possibly could come into play considering mentions of a ‘loop’, and time travel itself.

Jacob was shown making a tapestry. www.lostpedia.com gives a pretty good description of the tapestry via various freeze frames and such (the internet rocks for this stuff). What is shows is there are some Egyptian hieroglyphics and sceneries used, but also some passages in Ancient Greek right out of Homer’s Odyssey. I think this is done on purpose: Jacob cannot be limited to one mythology or culture; he would be known in Ancient Greece and Ancient Egypt. Note that Desmond is an obvious homage to Odysseus at times.

The very fact that Jacob is making a tapestry shows he is creating something that will take a long time to develop. He even mentions “that’s kind of the point”. This is an obvious allegory to his long term plans with the various Losties in getting them to the island, or back to the island, or in a position to experience things throughout their life that will ultimately lead them to perform specific actions or functions on the island. All part of his larger tapestry.

Jacob's tapestry, the hands ending from the lines were used in the Egyptian art of the Cult of Aten, created by the Pharoah Akhenaten. The cult was the first documented religion to believe in a single diety (I had to find this online, so don’t think I know this off-hand )

Within Jacob’s Chamber there are four walls covered in pictures. One is of Isis, spreading her wings; Isis is the Goddess of fertility and motherhood. Literally, her name means "she of the throne". Her original headdress was a throne. As the personification of the throne, she was an important representation of the pharaoh's power, as the pharaoh was depicted as her child, who sat on the throne she provided. Isis was worshipped by Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and others.

Jacob’s interaction with the Losties in prior to their first arrival or return to the island is interesting. One might say he (a) resurrects Locke; (b) convinces Kate not to steal; (c) feeds Jack, (d) rallies Ilana as his disciple. These are all things Jesus did in his miracles in a way. Still haven’t figured out Sayid’s and Hurley’s though if this is accurate.

Jacob kicked into the fire after being stabbed: anyone got something on this that could be significant other than the obvious montage reasons of he getting killed? Specifically why Anti-Jacob within Locke had to kick him into the fire.

I'll be a little disappointed if Jacob/anti-Jacob boils down to good vs. evil. It seems like in the beginning, the anti-Jacob seems a little more sympathetic to me, with his concern over the cycle beginning again and Jacob's bringing new people to the island. There's been an awful lot of grey area in Lost, I'm not sure we're being set up for Jesus v. Satan.

I'm not sure it's so much that Jacob/Anti-Jacob are necessarily good vs. evil, but I think it's pretty clear that they have different views of human nature, Jacob being optimistic about humans being fundamentally good and Anti-Jacob being fundamentally pessimistic. It's Coral Island vs. Lord of the Flies, Locke vs. Hobbes, Mencius vs. Xunzi, etc.

I guess I totally misread that first scene with Jacob and his tapestry because seeing him work those threads made me think of the threads woven by the Fates of mythology. Every thread represents a life, and once cut, the thread means death to whomever's life it represents. That perspective seemed to fit with Lost's themes rather well.