Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! 5 Years later... What a delight

You may remember that I had told people that after the Zero Hour debacle, I had sold my complete Legion of Super-Heroes collection. Well, the JLA/JSA crossover awoke many fuzzy feelings and I started buying back the old issues. Per chance, I bought SLH 250-354 in one go (cheap), which I of course adored, and I just bought back in the same manner the 5 Years later Legion 1 to 80 (including the beginning of the dreadful Archive legion from issue 62 onward (but once again, it was cheap).

I hadn't reread the 5 years later stories since their release... God, they were so good! I'm now up to Legion 12 and i'm really having a blast.
Blok's death is still as emotional as it was at the time, and the new continuity works like a charm (contrary to the following ones *sigh*). The new legionnaires like Kent Shakespeare and Celeste and Kono were fantastic... why, why did we have to have Zero Hour?!!!!!

Hey, PC, if you liked 5YL, you might want to check out this thread and this one .

Because DC was under the illusion that completely trashing decades of mythos built up around their properties in one fail swoop was a good business strategy.

The 5YL Legion rocks. I really hope that it doesn't get completely ignored in whatever upcoming plans DC has for the Legion in the coming year.

Which is the problem with the current Legion. I'm reading the old Adventure stuff and Waid borrowed heavily from it.

"Back to basics" but I want the mythos. It didn't get too complicated or reach it's end. It's just lazy.

Why build off the existing mythos when you can spend years re-introducing the same concepts with a slight twist?

"Yes, who needs originality when we can tell the same stories over and over again, but have Gim be the first leader instead of Cos, and have Jan become Starfinger instead of Garth?"

I'm totally with you all about 5YL. I accidentally came back to the Legion back then because the whole DC universe had dissappeared from German newsstands somewhen in the 80s.

I found out that the story had continued after #300 - and boy, did I have a blast finding out they had become adults - like me - and that their world had become a much darker place. I loved the stories even if it was quite hard at the beginning to find out what was happening - but that was part of the fun, having to do hard work, reading all the omnicoms to get the big picture.

I have reread the first 20 or so issues of 5Yl many times til then and really consider them one of the best comic book stuff ever. I'm glad that there are people out there who share my feelings!

Well, part of the genius in Giffen's "reboot" (because it WAS a reboot, let's face it) was that it changed things, adapted to the post-Crisis universe without destroying what had gone before.

Even today, you could have a "5 missing years" Legion that could continue older stories without negating the 5YL stories

Even the later stories with the new "secret identities" weren't that bad. Things went sour as soon as Waid arrived for the Zero Hour reset...

Now, all i need is to find a complete series of the baxter Legion LOL

Lets not forget that after Giffen left the 5YL era started falling apart. Once the Bierbaums were shown the door it really fell apart. That last year before the reboot was the all time low point in the history of the Legion. I loved the 5YL era up to about issue 40 and consider it some of the best comics DC has ever done, but everything after issue 40 or so you have to admit was pretty subpar with the exception of issue 50 which was pretty good.

I think DC didn't have much choice after the 5YL era except to reboot. Maybe if they had let Giffen do his whole 5 year plan like he wanted instead of kicking him out then they might have been able to keep it going without the reboot. Once Giffen and the Bierbaums were gone the books fate was pretty much sealed.

Of course they had a choice. The need for a change in direction does not amount to the need for a reboot. Good writers would've built upon the 5YL stories. Throwing it all away was lazy and insulting to Legion fans.

And let the congregation say, "Amen!"

I agree with EDE - the choice, actually, would be rather simple - go back to the end of the Magic Wars.

I myself would have wrapped up the goings-on with v4 #62, made #63 a transitional issue (with Kent, Kono and maybe Celeste going back in time to prevent the destruction of Earth), and #64 would be a continuation of both v3 and v4 #63s.

I disagree that 5YL was a reboot; yes there were continuity modifications, mostly re: Kal, Kara, Lar and Laurel, but the vast majority of LSH lore remained intact. I put these as only slightly more intrusuve than the 1960-ish flip-flopping between 21st or 30th centuries, the elimination/reintro of the 1958 costumes, retconning Vidar as a GL, etc.

I do agree 5YL was a masterpiece (1-36 plus 38, except for Profem).

Yeah well the same could have been said about the Reboot Legion being thrown away for the Waid Legion too so that is not really the point.

They let writers try to carry on from where Giffen left off and the book was beyond horrible. Like I said I loved the 5YL Legion, but it changed things way to much to ever go back to something close to what the Legion was. You had the SW6 kids around, the older members around, alot of characters gone or really changed. I mean seriously how could they have made anything that made any sence out of what they had when Giffen was forced out? Yeah the diehards like us would have been ok with it, but it would have made the book even more isolated when it comes to new people trying to get into the book than it ever was before.

And of course rebooting the title worked so fantastically well, giving us such classic Legion moments as Projectra revealed to be a snake, Dark Circle Rising, and Jarth.

The fact that the writers after Giffen gave us a crappy run (and I don't actually think Legion on the Run was *all* that bad) doesn't mean that better writers couldn't have done something better with the title. Lots of titles have had bad runs. Heck, the Titans sucked throughout most of the 90s from what I hear. But no one seriously suggested, "Well, I guess we've got to wipe out the Titans stories from the 60s, 70s, and 80s because the recent ones haven't been very good."

It's pretty simple really. You get rid of the duplicate Legionnaires by merging them into the adults, you introduce new members, you relaunch the title telling more conventional super-hero fare. Heck, if you really want to make the title about teen Legionnaires, move it another five years in the future and focus on Graym and Garridan. Most of all you move forward.

Whatever you might think of the state that the Legion was in at the time, it was in a heck of a lot better shape than the Justice Society was after Zero Hour. And within a few years they relaunched the JSA as one of DC's most successful titles. And they did it without wiping away the decades of history that were part of the appeal of the property. At least in part this was because they had writers that were able to draw upon that history and use it to their advantage.

When the 5YL first came out I hated it. I was 13 at the time and felt that my favorite team had disappeared. I think I started liking it around issue #7 or #8? Anyways I sat down and read #1 thru #12 (cause honestly I wasn't paying it much attention) and was amazed. Great stuff.

I feel like after Giffen left things did change a bit too much. I wasn't a big fan of the clones but when Legionnaires came out I thought it was a great idea! Have the young originals (liked them as the clones better) and add some new young characters. Leave the other Legion title a bit darker, etc. I liked Giffen's idea of naming the older team Omega Men.

Ohwell, it was certainly high quality stuff.

Damn the Crisis to all seven hells of Thanagar, anyway.

Try this real-world "Elseworld" on for size:

Suppose instead of Cockrum going to Marvel to work with Claremont, Claremont had come to DC? I would think Claremont could have taken the Legion and done the same sorts of things with them that he did with the X-Men in real history. [Remember, the X-Men probably had less of a following than the Legion before CC got hold of them.] If C & C could have made the Legion the best-sellers they did with the X-Men, the chowderheads running DC Comics wouldn't have dared mess with Legion continuity by eliminating Superboy and Supergirl, and none of the reboots would have happened, or have been needed. [The newer characters still could have been introduced--for example, after Mon-El died or retired, Laurel Gand could have come in to replace him. Also, since Cockrum created Nightcrawler and Storm, they'd have been Legionnaires.] Alas, what could have been...

I'll see your Sensor and raise you an Omen.

There've been good stories and runs of stories in every era of the LSH, as well as crappy ones in every era- including the beloved ADVENTURE years.

Ugh. I hated Legion on the Run. I was more disappointed that LEGIONNAIRES essentially got canceled than the main title.

I agree that it's too bad that other creators weren't given a shot at a salvage run. I still don't get why they weren't.

I wouldn't have been inclined to enjoy this scenario. If there'd been great- and I mean GREAT storytelling, I might've come around. Anything less and I'm positive I wouldn't have contined as a LSH- and a comics- fan today.

I think straying too far from young adults as heroes would make the Legion something entirely different. Not necessarily worse-- or better-- but different.

I completely agree. Drawing upon history must be a much more difficult task than it appears to be, given that it happens so infrequently in comics.

Of course, when you know more of the history of a character or team, the more dissatisfactory attempts can seem. Imagine how the years between Levitz's runs would be received if printed today...

Does anyone remember when LEGIONNAIRES was first announced? How it was initially designed to be a retelling of the LSH's early years? Much as I've enjoyed parts of the SW6ers and reboot eras, I often wonder what such a book would've been like and how different things might have progressed if it'd been released as planned.

And I've *always* perceived the 5YL stories occurring after the Mon-el/Time Trapper battle as a separate entity from LSH stories that were printed before it.

'Cause I never read an ADVENTURE issue with Laurel Gand or James Cullen in it. If you have, I'd stick that sucker on E-bay, cause you'd make a fortune.

And because it's the only way I can stomach what was done to Blok and Sun Boy. And Cosmic Boy, to a lesser degree.

Don't label me as anti-5YL either, as I enjoyed much of it and appreciate the scope of what was attempted in those issues.

I find it hard to use the word "reboot" to describe 5YL. Maybe because the word reboot has taken on such a negative connotation because of the number of poorly done reboots. I can't think of any comic book series that hasn't developed some inconsistencies and baggage after a run of about 10 years, and find that some housecleaning is typically in order.

I'm interested in Mystery Lad's approach of viewing the post Mon-el/Time Trapper battle team as a totally seperate entity. My view is quite the opposite. I wouldn't have enjoyed the stories nearly as much if I hadn't viewed the Legion as the same characters I grew up with, with a few improvements.

The analogy I use is one of a house with a broken foundation that needed to be repaired. Coincidently, I was living in a 100 year old farm house with a damaged foundation during part of this run. The house had to be jacked up. New concrete needed to be poured in some areas. Some broken bricks were removed and replaced with new ones. In many areas the original foundation was still strong, so it stayed. It was a slow process that couln't be completed all at once. Care had to be taken so as not to damage the structure of the house. When the work was done, I still considered it the same house, and not a new one.

My expecatations for the comics had certainly changed in the post Dark Knight, post Watchmen era in which 5YL was published. I was reading and enjoying Hawkworld, the Perez Wonder Woman, and the emerging Vertigo titles. While others viewed TMK as destroying or disregarding the rich history of the Legion, I was thrilled with the care they took, and obvious deep respect they had for what had gone before. I wished writers for other series had taken the same care.

The Pocket Universe was the real villian to me. It was a wholly unsatisfying replacement for the foundation of the "real" Superboy hanging out with these cool kids from the future. Since the real Superboy and Supergirl were gone, I was delighted to see TMK delve into the past of the Legion and build a new internal foundation. If Superboy could no longer be the inspiration his "big brother" Lar Gand was a better choice for me than a pocket universe duplicate.

Laurel Gand was introduced and written in such a way that I felt like she had always been part of the Legion. She was immediately part of the family. I hate to say it, but she really was more a member of the family than Supergirl had ever been. She wasn't a part timer who flew in from the past whenever it was convenient or some writer thought of a clever use for her. She had never attempted to join the "wrong" Legion of the next generation and then never had that mistake explained. She had always been part of the team.

Kid Quantum was another improvement. It had become too difficult for me to ignore the overt racism of omission of the Adventure era, and the fumbled attempts at remedies that followed. While repairing the foundation, TMK made the effort to gently insert not just a token black, but a fully developed character who was steeped in the Soul of Antares, played a pivotal role in the important "no artificial poweres" rule, and displayed the important Legion traits of nobility and willingness for self sacrafice.

I would have been happy to read this fixed version of the Legion for a number of years. Ironically, the editors caved to readers who felt that this wasn't the "real" Legion, and created a new version which was much further away from the original, and, in my opinion, much less respectful of what had gone before.

Jerry, I fully agree.

excellent analogy about home repair, also. The post-Mordruverse was still the same house with a couple new beams; Reboot and Threeboot were new houses painted to vaguely resemble the original.

That sums it up perfectly! It was INSULTING! And what came afterwards - Tangleweb and Co. - still added to the insult.

It was as insulting as Jar Jar Binks was to every Star Wars Fan. Or Season 5 was to Babylon 5 Fans. And so on and so on...

I feel like rereading the Giffen run again... when you stop reading with the issue the Earth blows up (quite drastic but hey - this was SciFi after all!), you have a quite complete story...

I liked the fact that the Legion 2.0 version of Laurel overcame the bigotry with which she had been raised, but I still really missed the brave little girl who saved her world that we met in issue 9 of the '90s Legion comic.

How I think of the five Legion continuities:

Original--Legion 1.0
Pocket Universe--1.1
Glorithverse--1.2
Zero Hour Reboot--2.0
Threeboot--3.0

Somebody mentioned Sun Boy. I consider his "turning to the dark side" one of the main highlights of the 5YL run, complete with his ending. It was marvelous. Those were the days: Some characters came back fighting for a better world, some characters just gave up, some followed the dark side. Every Legionnaire was a disctinct character - compared to Waids Threeboot where you could not tell the heroes apart without their costumes.

It was a dark and grotty time for comic books, but in retrospect - storywise - it probably was one of the best time for comic readers ever.

Every story was full of Legion Lore - sometimes twisting and turning it, but mostly respecting it. There was an element for everyone to NOT like - I hated the Garth/Proty idea - but there were so many more elements to adore....

What was wrong with B5's fifth season?? It was a logical extension of what had gone before and the story had been planned to go that way all along. (You may PM me, if you wish, to prevent this thread from getting off-topic.)

As for 5YL ... as I mentioned in other threads, I'm warming up to some of the developments, particularly Profem and Proty-Garth. As "shocking" as those ideas seemed, they worked in the context of the storyline and didn't contradict (overmuch) what had gone before.

But I still have problems with the revision of the Legion's history, which was more DC's doing than TMK's. Although Kid Quantum's presence was a well-meaning attempt to correct racial imbalance, I still can't accept an early, deceased Legionnaire who was never mentioned before and to whom no statues had been seen in past stories. (Consider the big hoopla made over Ferro Lad's demise.) I did enjoy the Soul of Antares storyline, but it would have worked just as well had KQ been introduced as Five-Year Gap Legionnaire.

I also like Laurel Gand as a working mom/hero, which does add some credence to the idea of her having been a member for years. But, again, it's hard to mentally "insert" her into stories in which she did not originally appear.

I've mentioned elsewhere the problems I have with Mon-El serving as the inspiration for the Legion instead of Superboy. Briefly put, Mon and Superboy were two very different personalities, and shoehorning Mon into a different role is to say that the characters are interchangeable, which they are not. Despite his overt similarities to Superboy, Mon developed as a very different and complex character in his own right. This development was pretty much thrown away by turning him into a 20th century hero/space war general.

But I do think TMK and, later, TM, did an outstanding job with the cards they were dealt, and I've very much enjoyed their adult version of the Legion.

I'm with Mystery Lad, as I consider everything from TMK # 5 onward to be a separate LSH continuity. I refer to it as a "miniboot" or the "Glorithverse".

I think my feelings re: the 5YL era are well-enough documented. It was a mistake to fire Tom and Mary Bierbaum. And an even worse mistake not to give another LSH-loving writer a chance to proceed with the then-continuity.

And while I dislike the "Legion on the Run"/Post-T&MB era (especially its eliminations of practically every new "miniboot" character), I do appreciate that they at least made use of clamoured-for long-unseen LSH characters like Wildfire and the Heroes of Lallor.

(This reminds me I'm overdue for writing my review of T&MB's Mordru arc.)