Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Green Arrow

I've enjoyed the first two issues ... while I'm not sure how long they can (or are willing to) keep up the gimmick of the forest, so far it's made an interesting backdrop ... Hal and Ollie had some good moments (especially in the "Don't-call-it-the-Arrow-Cave") in issue 2, the ending of which

<span class="spoiler_containter"><span class="spoiler_wording">Click Here For A Spoiler</span><span class="spoiler_text">Ollie gets shot with an arrow in the forehead</span></span>

may result in a quick reveal about the nature of the forest ...

It's not REALLY that much of a shock considering they solicit him in the next three issues.

Read #1. Pretty shitty story.

Def not reading #2.

He was shot in the head with an arrow... and he lived.

Can somebody please tell me the point of that cover if you know well enough he's gonna live?

What they made Green Arrow do in Cry Justice has put me off the character. I don't foresee ever reading Green Arrow again.

This whole thing has put me Arrow forever. Him AND Black Canary.

But the Dennis O'Neill stories are still good.

Though I'm no fan of Cry for Justice, I would add that Ollie's being a killer is not without precedence. Mike Grell had him kill some baddies during his long run on the character beginning with The Longbow Hunters, and it's generally a well-regarded era for the character.

I have not read Longbow Hunters. So I don't know the circumstances around those killings. Were they as premeditated as the murder of Prometheus or did they occur in the heat or immediate aftermath of battle?

More than the killing of Prometheus, it was having Green Arrow say "justice" right after. I screamed (in my mind) "That's not justice! That is revenge!"

At least it wasn't Lian telling Roy to gut somebody like a pig.

Ollie has killed before, under Grell and Dixon. His hunt in Cry For Justice isn't that out of character, tho this particular killing was more premeditated.

The cover for issue #3, and Ollie's surviving an arrow to the head leads to learning the forest of Star City has healing powers. It does progress the story, so it's not totally misleading.

This new series chock full of navel gazing. The pacing is drawn out, too much of Ollie's inner monolouge is rehashed guilt. There's one more GA issue in my future- anything less than stellar and I drop the book.

I stop buying Green Arrow.

When CJ drops Green Arrow, you know the title sucks.

For me personally, I've got the ability to forget pretty quickly what other creators have done with characters. So while I hate "Cry for Justice" and was appalled by it, it wouldn't put me off Ollie permanently.

What I can't forgive is a really crappy story. And that was what this was. Bad pacing, non-stop guilt-brooding, an annoying Ollie/Hal confrontation, a girl on the verge of getting raped (DC sure loves its rapists--I suspect some of the editors must fantasize about this?), corrupt businessmen exploiting a broken down city, etc. It's a series of cliches with no real meat to it.

They are obviously trying to copy what Grell did before and it comes off as unoriginal. They are invoking Katrina-ridden New Orleans in a way that rather than being poignant, comes of as exploitation (or at the very least, are trying to invoke 1980's era Los Angeles which feels outdated).

There were a lot of criticisms of Winnick on Green Arrow, and many of them valid, but in my opinion, whatever he did, he always was able to make it stand on it's own. He was carving out his own era in GA history. This feels like aping the past and just not being good enough to pull it off.

Thing is, I'm not entirely clear whether the Grell-era Ollie Queen stories are still in continuity. The reaction Ollie got to killing Prometheus makes me think that it might not.

In any case I gave the first couple issues a flip-thru. Even though I like the art style, I could tell that this wasn't a real must-have. Online reviews have backed this up.

I SO want a good Ollie Queen book because he is one of my very most favorite DCU characters. It looks like I'm not getting one any time soon. Kevin Smith brought Ollie back with a bang, Brad Meltzer's arc was pretty decent and the early Winick issues were very good. But after Winick's first year, it quickly turned into a sea of "meh" at best. And even a new direction and creative team haven't bailed Ollie out.

Actually, on second thought, there is a terrific Green Arrow comic being published right now! It's called "Hawkeye and Mockingbird", and it's being published by Marvel!

Isn't that the one where the writer boasted that it was 99% free of dead cats compared to any other archer related comic?

The Grell penned GA is/isn't in continuity, more so than any pre-Crisis/IC histories. Under Grell, Ollie was more real world urban vigilante, a real Avenging Archer. When Dixon took over, it was mentioned Ollie had killed a man once before, and he retreated to an ashram to make peace with it. Dixon had Ollie kill a second time (mentioned in story) and ending up at the same ashram, this time by mistake. It led to meeting Connor and his eventual death.

Since GA:Reborn (see: Kevin Smith's QUIVER arc) his killings have not been mentioned, merely alluded to when a character, usually Dinah, wants to point out how dark Ollie's becoming. Said killings have always been spur of the moment, life v. death situations. His hunting of Prometheus shows more forethought, deliberation, and selfish revenge than true justice, almost the opposite of his previous breaches of that particular moral code.

I can see Ollie crossing the line. He uses a bow and arrow! He developed his skills as a hunter. Under Grell, Ollie would stalk the most vile criminals, make a hard decision to take a life, and move on. He didn't relish the choice, but didn't agonize over it either. Ollie would shed his guilt faster than a tear for the men he killed (not that many,) seeing his work as means to protect and serve. Simple man, simple motif, simple justice.

Krull has Oliver bemoaning his current lot in life- something he brought about all on his own by killing Prometheus and revealing his ID (scarcely secret tho it may be.) This isn't a hardened hero, a lone man seeking to save a world from corruption. This is a weak man, wallowing in self pity, avoiding his life rather than stepping up to be the hero he claims to be. Fine for an arc, but drag this out much longer, without a SERIOUS slap to the face by Speedy, and this becomes a sad tale of misplaced misery.

Krull brought energy to the Titans during his BL mini. His wrap up of the GA/BC series had the same level of energy, excitement, verve. This new series lacks all of that. Sadly, it's probably timed to pace itself with Brightest Day (good book on it's own) and that's where DC is going wrong.

If Ollie is going to distance himself from the rest of the DCU, then distance his book. If Krull is as good a writer as he's been, the book will do just fine. Stand or fall, let Green Arrow be Green Arrow.

Hawkeye is great! He's no GA. Ollie is a hunter, Clint an action junkie. Ollie is a vigilante, Cline a super hero. I want my GA stories to involve ethical quagmires, blacks and whites and grays grounded on a level we can all appreciate. Hawkeye should be an over the top adrenaline rush, colourful adventures played out on a scale we all dream of, scaring us as often as exciting us.

Ollie and Clint have a lot of obvious but superficial similarities. You're right especially in that they lend themselves to very different kinds of stories. In any case I've always been attracted to both of them as characters. I guess it's their combination of roguishness and being able to fight alongside of the Big Guns despite not having any powers (not including Clint's run as Goliath).

In a way, though, Clint's a lot like Ollie used to be pre-Grell. No, Clint doesn't have Ollie's politics, but their gimmicks and especially their wisecracking wit and hotheadedness echo each other a lot. Pre-Grell (and beginning with Adams/O'Neil), Ollie's adventures weren't all that much in the street-level vein outside of the classic GL/GA runs. Mostly, he was a member of the JLA hanging out in a satellite and taking on super menaces with them. He was Mr. JLA for a long time like Clint is and was Mr. Avenger.

Ironically, Hawkeye's main squeeze has also been a bird-themed blond lady! I don't know how intentional this was when they were first paired up, but it's kinda hard to ignore!

So in a way the "Hawkeye & Mockingbird" can read at least superficially like the Bronze Age version of Ollie. So I'll continue to contend that it's the best GA book currently on the stands!

I normally hate seeing heroes kill and think it's a real tarnishing on the DCU that nearly every so-called 'hero' they've got these days has killed someone at one time or another.

And I have definitely never been a fan of any Oliver's killings in the past (except maybe that first one back in the... 70s I think which was an accident and which he immediately repented for at that monastery).

However, I have no problem with his killing of Prometheus. In fact I applaud it. Prometheus was an almost unstoppable serial killing freak who had already killed off way too many good DCU characters. There was only one way to see him stopped and Ollie found it. (Until a writer brings him back some day.) I wish Batman would do the same to the Joker and put us all out of that story/panel-hogging misery once and for all too!

In the real world I'm an opponent of the death penalty because I beleive that even the minutest risk of error is too great. In comics, however, where we are in no doubt of a character's guilt or innocence I do believe that the worst of the worst should be executed (ie Joker, Prometheus, Mr Zazz, a few others).

Regarding Green Arrow's current book - I haven't even looked at the previews. My ship of interest in this character (and his family) sailed a long time ago (thankyou Mr Winick). Very much a shame since if it hadn't been for Ollie and the wonderful way he was written/drawn in the old JLofA book I would not be a comic fan today.

I can't say I agree with you in the terms of Prometheus' deserved death.

He was a monster, a psychopath, yes.

But there are other ways to make a person suffer without killing them. Ways that can leave them BEGGING to be killed.

But was it about making him suffer, or was it about making sure he could never kill again?

ETA: Never read the story myself, so I don't know the answer to that question.

Good point. I should've realized that. Just disregard my last post.

GREEN ARROW (DCnU) # 1


Looks like Ollie's got a pretty sizeable reboot going on here.

He's younger, hipper, richer and has some fun backup folks he's working with.

The 3 new villains look promising, and the last page assured I will be back for # 2. No guarantees after that though, despite an unbeatable Jurgens/Perez art team.

Sorry, I found Green Arrow #1 CRAP-tacular!!
Pure & utter garbage.
Even Perez's faboo inks could not save Jurgen's rushed pencils or Krul's bland, by-the-numbers script.

GASP!!!

GASP!!! Time to stop being polite and start getting real!

GASP! Green Arrow is horrible?! How can this-my sarcasm isn't even worth this.