Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Long Live the Legion! Dev revisits the 5YL era

My thoughts on the matter are presented in that thread, too, but I'm not satisfied with the way I expressed them.

Truth is, without the stalker element, without the starstruck-and-lovesick-weakling element, and if ze had decided to keep living as a woman and go back on Profem once the Dominators were defeated, I could have accepted it.

But by taking the story in the direction they did, TMK did a disservice to transsexuals and their fight for tolerance. To me, it comes off as a very patronizing and ill-informed portrayal of gender indentity dysfunction, and it reinforces the ignorant (though, unfortunately, popular) notion that transsexualism is, without exception, nothing more than a phase to be discouraged at all costs. TMK should have realized that when you deal with an oppressed minority like the transgender community, your character inevitably ends up representing the entire community. As for Huey's assertion that at least ze was sympathetic, I have to disagree -- thanks to TMK's heavy-handed bathos, I didn't find hir sympathetic at all, or even pitiable, but repulsive! And if ze gets that kind of reaction from someone who's trans-friendly, imagine the kind of reaction ze gets from a transophobe!

Other than that thorn in my side, I consider the 5YL era to be an ambitious folly that's been overpraised for its ambitions rather than its actual achievements. There were some great concepts and great new characters, and even I will grudgingly admit that v.4 # 5 works very well as a stand-alone, but in my opinion it never jelled as a whole.

Having said that, I do look forward to reading Dev's fanfic continuation of it, because without the editorial pressures and the imposed deadlines which wrecked TMK's execution, something worthy could be made of it.

Got to say that I think you're right on at least one thing when it comes to the whole transgendered thing in issue 31...it was ill informed. I seriously do not believe that the writers really put that much thought into it. At least not outside what they wanted to do with the story.

They do not seem to take actual transgender issues into account here. The only thing that I remember Tom saying on the subject was this..."Keith challenged Al to think of something else to do interesting with Shvaughn and the first thing that occurred to Al was "she's a boy." Keith loved the notion and that was the birth of the controversial Shvaughn/Sean storyline that wasn't revealed until Legion #31."

GHe has not gotten to the issue in question on his blog, so it is not clear what their purpose was for this issue.

Time will tell if there is more behind their thought process, hopefully.

I am looking forward to what Tom has to say for himself and Mary and Keith and Al. His blog has been extremely illuminating on the nuts and bolts of what they did.

I should also add that I generally enjoy dark adventure very much. I loved the controversial Season 3 of the Transformers TV show, and I loved the controversial Bob Harras/Steve Epting run on Avengers, both of which I think have a lot in common with 5YL, especially in the lack of proper respect that they get.

I don't wish to rehash an old debate, but I do feel it necessary to respond here.

Sean/Shvaughn was not symptathetic? Well, your mileage may vary. I found him (hir?) very sympathetic since his struggle to accept himself mirrors an all-too-common problem among young people: the belief that they have to be like somebody else in order to be accepted. Many kids do drastic and dangerous things to themselves, as Sean did, in order to win that acceptance.

I also found Sean sympathetic and even heroic in making the final decision to be true to himself. I can't understand how he would have been more acceptable to you if he had reverted to being a woman. That's not who "he" was.

I'm not an expert on transgenderism, and I do not wish to speak for that community. Perhaps TMK should have done more research on the subject. It's laudable that, as a transfriendly person, you care about how they are perceived in comics. However, why should we care what a transophobe thinks? Such people have already made up their minds.

The highest praise I can give the comic is that it got people talking about a topic most of us tend to ignore. More than that, it got us talking about a topic greater than the comic itself. This makes all the reboots and revamps that many comics today concern themselves with pale by comparison.

That is indeed the case. I found hir weak, whiny, emotionally starved, shallow, and creepy (ze was a stalker, for God's sake!)

Perhaps I should have been more specific -- I wanted hir to be written as Levitz had written hir, with no differences other than ze happened to be a transsexual, NOT as the basket case I described above. That would have made it even more beautiful when Jan accepted hir for hirself. Then Profem becomes available again, ze could go back to being as she really was, and they lived happily ever after.

Because, as naive at it may sound, I believe that some transophobes and homophobes are capable of changing for the better.

But that's not who Sean in the 5YL-verse *was*. He didn't become Shvaughn because he thought he was in the wrong body, he did it because he felt he didn't live up to the 'men were men' culture he perceived on his home planet. Thinking that the man he was obsessed with (Jan) would only be attracted to a woman, he began taking Pro-fem.

Sean/Shvaughn was a transexual only in definition... I don't think he self-identified in any psychologically sound way as a woman. If transitioning in the future still included medical or psychiatric involvement, I doubt he ever would have become Shvaughn. Instead, it was all black market and underground... though the product was readily available on some store or pharmacy's shelf, wasn't it? Hmmmm.

I agree that this story is a horrible example of an examination of a transsexual- this particular transexual is such a singular case. For me, it worked on many other levels, though.

Sigh... and I swore I wasn't going to comment on this particular issue again. I've chimed in on it every time it gets discussed. Not sure why.

I'm not saying that's who ze was. I'm saying that's who I wanted hir to be.

All of these things you say are true. But heroes in fiction always have to go down before they go up. They always have to confront the worst side of themselves before they emerge as better people. (This is also true for a lot of real people, by the way.)

Your point about transophobes and homophobes changing their minds is well taken, although I don't know if anything TMK might have done could have accomplished that. If they'd written a glowing tale about transgenderism, it might not have been perceived that way. As our debate demonstrates, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Ah, well . . . if we could only get what we want. I wanted the Legion's original history with Superboy to remain intact. I wanted Mon-El to be called Mon-El, instead of Valor, etc.

The interesting thing about not getting either is that it forced me to look at TMK for what it was, not for what I wanted it to be.

That's what I love about fan fiction, it makes it possible to have what I want even if it'll never be the "official" version.

Like Mystery Lad, I was reluctant to jump in on this conversation. My thoughts and feelings are posted elsewhere, and we always seem to leave this discussion as entrenched in our points of view as when we go in. But here I am... I can't resist an opportunity to try to defend this story one more time.

The interesting thing about this latest discussion is that it makes clear how differently each of us viewed Shvaughn after reading the story.

For me, I viewed her as a stronger person and with much more respect after the story. There was nothing in the story that detracted from her earlier portrayals by Levitz. From the moment she was introduced during the Earthwar saga, she came across as a professional and competent science police officer.
Her tears and heartache during the transformation, in a time of devastating war, while dealing with the intense emotions of an intimate relationship, in no way changed the competent person she was.

It made her a little more complex. It meant that she was dealing with some things that weren't apparent to us on the surface. She never let those things show or impact her ability to perform her job in all those years. That added to her strength in my eyes.

I did not view her as a stalker. My read has always been, she had a teenage crush on a celebrity AND she became a woman, AND she pursued a career with the science police. In the course of her career, she met the object of her teenage crush and entered into a relationship with him. I never read it as she had a teenage crush on Element Lad SO she became a woman, then she joined the science police SO she could have a relationship with him. Like all of us, she made a series of decisions in her life for a variety of reasons. Her crush on Jan was a factor in all this, but not necessarily the only factor or most important factor.

I feel comfortable referring to Shvaughn with female pronouns. She lived the majority of her adult life as a woman by choice. If it were only because of a charade to be with Jan, it wouldn't have held up all those years. Charades just don't last that long. She was comfortable being a science police officer, a woman and being in a relationship, even a distant one without traditional strings or trappings, with Jan. The war threatened all of the things she was and the life that she had become comfortable with.

I don't recall if the story stated clearly that she was choosing to remain Sean after the gender reversal or why. I assume that it would have taken time for Profem to become readily available again. She also learned that Jan was gay during the story. Maybe she wanted to stay a man so they could experiment with sex at that level for a while. She went on to become Chief of the Science Police as Sean, so there was no professional censure for being a transgender person. That was a positive.

There does appear to be some evolution in thought on transgender issues since I was younger. Or so some of my younger friends who describe themselves as "gender queer" tell me. In my day, a transexual was viewed as a person who felt that they were in the body of the wrong gender. The fix was ultimately to transform the body into that of the correct gender. It was linear with a very specific goal. My understanding of the gender queer movement is that it rejects the concept of two genders, homosexuality, and bisexuality in favor of multiple genders existing on a spectrum and pan sexuality. It's a view that embraces a more fluid idea of gender and sexuality, with a lot of moving back and forth within a lifetime. There is nothing linear about it. Now, as someone who identifies as gay, and who wears my homosexuality like a comfortable old coat, this concept is difficult for me. If one were to embrace it, though, it really wouldn't make a difference whether Sean stayed Sean or went back to being Shvaughn. The concept of Profem would make multiple lifetime transformations easier.

Another thing I want to weigh in on. Many critics of Shvaughn jump on the fact that she was dishonest with Jan. Jan revealed to Shvaughn in the story that he was gay. Doesn't that mean they were deceiving one another, if it was important? Doesn't that make them even? Why is Shvaughn railed on for being the deceptive one?

Any way, I've chimed in on the debate again. I guess I should let you all know how much I loved the Swan and Doran art again before I go. Great thread, Dev.

He Who Wanders:

Ummm....Jo DID run into a bad wizard...that's what got the good wizard involved in his case in the first place.

I wasn't sure whether a Lord of Chaos qualified as a wizard or not. In any case, it's mighty convenient that Nabu sent Jo back where he belonged, don't you think?

Very convenient indeed.

In my mind it could have been three things happening with that...Keith wanted to use Nabu in the past, they had no other way to get him back so they thought "Nabu can do it", or Editorial wanted them to tie some "known" character to the series.

Now Keith has worked on Dr. Fate in the past, so he is at least familiar with the character. Tom adds nothing about this in his blog about the issue.

The real reasons for the convenience of the return is probably lost to time...heh.

Glad you chimed in. The more the merrier. I love seeing all kinds of opinions on things that are brought up here...I love varied opinions.

Swan and Doran art was very nice. Having met both artists, it was really cool to see their collaboration on thiis issue.

Thanks for the compliment, but I have to say that the more people that chime in makes it even better.

Jerry, thanks for being a voice of reason and providing a lot of valuable insight into the character of Sean/Shvaughn.

I found this particularly helpful:

I think it's worth highlighting that Shvaughn was a competent officer and had lived as a woman for many years, and that she had encountered the object of her earlier crush by happenstance. This certainly does make her character much more complex.

I suppose Jo had to return to the future some time, and Nabu accomplished that task as well as any plot device--particularly since Jo had been stranded in the past for eight issues now.

But the story still bothers me. It could be because Jo's relationship with Asherya is so easily brushed aside. A large part of the story is spent in establishing them as a couple. The dialogue on page 16, for example, seems very real. Asherya got Jo to open up about Tinya.

And then, BAM! She's a Lord of Chaos. She dies. Jo gets sent back to the future. End of story.

Jo is never shown mourning for her after he returns. Even if he were convinced that she wasn't what she appeared to be (as suggested by her impersonation of Tinya just before she dies), how could he compartmentalize and dispose of those emotions so quickly?

For that matter, why did Nabu wait so long--after Jo had fallen in love and gone through the pain of losing her--to send him home?

It definitely seemed to have an abrupt ending.

The only thing I can figure...and not sure if this is what they intended...is that Jo realized that he was really using her as a substitute for Tinya and was in turn finally mourning Tinya. Given the ending where he finally allows himself to cry for her, I think that is what they were implying, but I may just be hopeful that they actually had some sort of plan for all of that.

Well, if a Lord of Order (Nabu) qualifies as a wizard, then I imagine a Lord of Chaos does.

In any case, yes, it's convenient. Still, it was well-executed, I find it hard to mind too much. In fact, the inconvenience of the earlier situation...finding himself on Khundia, then travelling to Rimbor to find nothing there and then heading to Earth, whereas a more hackneyed story would have him on Earth from the very beginning...made the "convenience" of the ending less bothersome to me.

I always thought he should have been on Winath in the past to start out with.

Backtracking a bit . . .

Re: # 25

I wanted to like this issue—I really did. In general, I have no problem with SW6. I enjoyed their interactions with their older counterparts in a later issue. But here—in the first issue to spotlight them—things seem off. The issue reads like a parody of the Adventure-era Legion by well-meaning creators who didn’t truly understand that era.

First, we have the Legionnaires waking up naked in the Dominators’ chamber. I understand that the Dominators weren’t big on propriety, but so little was done with this scene. No one comments on the situation except for an obligatory remark from Sun Boy. The Legionnaires are still teenagers at this point—they should be awkward, shy, horny, self-conscious, any number of emotions. But instead they behave as professionally as ever. Even adults would find themselves experiencing a range of emotions under similar circumstances.

Second, there’s the salute on page 12. One can imagine that the Bierbaums thought, “Hey, let’s give the fans another tidbit to remind them of the Adventure days.” But why are the Legionnaires saluting in the first place? Violet only tells Devlin that they have to do something—but why? They seem to have too readily accepted the notion that they are out of time and have no way back to their own era, but it’s too soon to come to this conclusion. (Brainy even suggests that this is only one possible future.) As Devlin points out, the Legionnaires are simply making themselves targets for the Dominators—and the Domies are happy to oblige. The Adventure Legionnaires exhibited much more intelligence than that.

Third, Matter-Eater Lad. Dev-Em is right that he gets the best lines, but Tom and Mary use the humorous approach to such an extent that it strains credibility. The Dominators stand there and listen while Tenz prattles on and on instead of blowing his brains out? Sorry, I don’t buy it. The humor that works so well when Tenz is the center of the story (e.g., # 14) seems out of place when he’s a bit player in a more serious storyline.

Fourth, what exactly was Devlin O’Ryan’s plan? He was surprised when Matter-Eater Lad appeared out of nowhere. Does this mean he wasn’t expecting any Legionnaires to come to his rescue? Was he planning on sacrificing himself so they could get away? Perhaps he was waiting for the Legion Espionage Squad to act—but they sure took their time, didn’t they?

There are a few other nitpicky things that bother me, as well, such as Vi’s (and later Chlorophyll Kid’s) stuttering. This shorthand way of indicating that she’s shy is instrusive and makes it appear as if she has a speech impediment.

The issue isn’t a total loss. The artwork by Dusty Abell and Brad Vancata suits the Adventure-era Legion quite well. Also, Devlin is starting to emerge as a character I like (though he does whine a lot).

I guess it was inevitable that Devlin was going to get a power—just about everybody who hangs out with the Legion in any boot gets powers eventually (as Celeste did a few issues ago). Now that Giffen and crew have dismantled everything the Legion stood for, they’re not bound by the same rules (e.g., everyone must have a power), so it would be nice if the Legion had some non-powered supporting players. Of course, they still have Rokk . . .

I fear that the Adventure-era Legionnaires suffer from an undeserved reputation of being bland and having no personalities. This is untrue: the personalities were more subtly conveyed than in later eras. But the Bierbaums, in trying to recreate the Adventure era, popuate this issue with two dozen characters who fade into the background, have little to say or do, or behave oddly.

Re: # 26

This issue presents an exciting fight between Laurel Gand and the Dominator’s android BION. Whereas issue-long fights tend to grow tedious, this one never does. It keeps moving as Laurel throws everything she has against BION but cannot defeat him: he possesses all the powers of the Legionnaires (or claims he does). I like it that this isn’t obvious, at first, but, on re-read, we can see him using the abilities of Elastic Lad (or Cham) (p. 8).

For all his might, however, BION continues to think that this Laurel is the SW6 Laurel! One would think that if he had Saturn Girl’s telepathy, he could figure out his error, but I’m glad he does not. It subtly reminds us that BION and his Dominator creators are as flawed as humans.

I agree with Dev-Em's appraisal of this issue's depiction of the former Subs, who come into their own as resistance warriors. Page 13 is one example where the use of abstract images actually works instead of drawing a fight scene. (In this case, Ulu Vakk uses his Color Kid power in an amazing way to confuse the enemy.)

Ronn-Karr also makes a suitable addition to the Subs.

I also appreciate it that Chlorophyll Kid expresses shock and disgust when a resistance soldier murders a Dominator lab technician (page 17). The former Legionnaires seem to have abandoned their code against killing (Jo in # 2) or to have adopted a more cavalier attitude toward the taking of life during 5YL. It was good to see someone who still thinks that murder—even in war—is wrong.

Grinn is an odd character. He serves his role as Universo’s lackey well, but I can’t help wondering what’s the origin/explanation behind his Cheshire cat appearance.

Issue # 27 is the last issue (I think) that I’m missing of this run. I may have missed the BION resolution, but I’m enjoying most of the other plots and subplots in this intricate tapestry.

Re: # 28.

I agree with pretty much everything Dev said in his review a few pages ago. This is a riveting story about Sun Boy’s life and downfall.

Throughout these reviews, I’ve mentioned that Giffen and crew have obviously taken their cues from Watchmen in how they approached 5YL. Nowhere is this more evident than here. Dirk’s back story has a lot in common with that of Rorschach. Although the latter was the son of a prostitute and Dirk Morgna was the son of a wealthy businessman, each seems to have learned some very bad lessons from his parent—lessons regarding women and what one must do to survive and prosper.

It doesn’t hurt that the transitional scenes which appear throughout # 28 bear a striking resemblance to Rorschach tests, or that Dirk as a boy with curly, red hair looks like Walter Kovacs (Rorschach).

Yet despite the similarities to Watchmen, this is Dirk’s own story. The Bierbaums seamlessly weave us in and out of the established facts of Dirk’s back story—his origin, his Legion membership (including going mad from being on one too many space missions), his womanizing—and reinterpret them from Dirk’s perspective.

One aspect that stands out to me is that Dirk never takes responsibility for his own actions. Perhaps he feels “justified” (to use Dev’s term) in blaming his father for steering him down the wrong path, but, at some point, Dirk has to make his own decisions. Instead, he blames the Legion for letting him down, and he quits when the team needs him most. He takes every slight personally yet does not acknowledge the hurt he’s caused others (particularly women).

Perhaps the most significant revelation is that Dirk probably ignored the warning signs that Dr. Regulus had posted outside the reactor, leading to the explosion and death of Alisia (Zarl Hendricks in the original story). This certainly casts Dirk's career in a new light, as the golden Sun Boy could never acknowledge (not even to himself) that he had recklessly caused the death of another.

Jason Pearson’s art perfectly captures the twisted state of Dirk’s mind. Dev already mentioned that characters’ mouths leap creepily off their faces. Other aspects of Pearson’s art that shine include the way Dirk sees Polar Boy as a goofy, always happy sidekick (the real Brek who had joined the Legion was a far more serious sort) and the continuity between transition scenes, such as when the Legionnaires start resigning (p. 11-12).

I can’t say I “love” this story, either—but that’s because Sun Boy was always one of my favorite Legionnaires (hence, the avatar on the left). But I’ve seen enough real-world heroes fall from grace due to their own self-indulgence and narcissism that I appreciate the brutal honesty depicted here.

#28 was gut wrenching. Dirk's fall was hard to watch because he always tried so hard. You wanted him to succeed because he wanted to succeed so badly. Under the surface he may have had a need for approval and popularity that was so strong that it contributed to his downfall. As the Legion fell out of favor on Earth, he still wanted to be Earth's hero - still needed to be Earth's hero. Ultimately this contributed to him not maintaining as strong a tie to the ideals of the Legion.

Missed opportunity: I wish more attention had been paid to the reactions of Gim, Garth, and Rokk to Dirk's tragic fate. These guys always seemed the closest to Dirk to me. Showing one (or all) of them dealing with his sadness would have been powerful.

RE: # 29-30

As if the book wasn’t already overpopulated with characters, in these issues we meet Sade—another naked lady who jumps around and causes havoc before being convinced to side with the heroes.

All in all, these two issues are not bad. However, this book doesn’t seem like the Legion’s book anymore. The main characters—the reformed, older Legionnaires—do virtually nothing while the action shifts between various theatres of war. The Subs and Sade fight a mock Fantastic Four. Ambassador Relnic threatens to go to war with the Dominion. The Dominators execute President Wellington and blow up cities. Circe and Bounty sneak into Pinacle Command. The SW6 Legionnaires learn about Dark Circle involvement, sneak away from Universo, and argue with Devlin.

If the Legion didn’t need a scorecard before, they certainly do now. A phone book would be better.

Jason Pearson’s art continues to impress me for the most part. There are times when he (like Tenz) uses humor in inappropriate places. For example, on page 10 of # 30, he’s drawn a shock-haired assistant of Universo’s waving his arms wildly to convey the message that the SW6 have escaped—an image that would be more appropriate in, say, an Ambush Bug story. But Pearson’s images are so much easier to decipher than Giffen’s that I found myself wishing he had drawn all of 5YL.

Another misplaced bit of humor: On page 20 of # 29, the SW6ers tell Devlin that they’ve faced tougher enemies than the Dark Circle in the past, and Violet gives examples: “Like Jungle King and Size Lad and the Cosmic Spy League.” It’s a funny moment, but it portrays the SW6ers as hopelessly naïve. It also ignores the fact that, at this point in the Legion’s history, they had indeed faced some of their toughest enemies, including Universo, the Khunds, and the Time Trapper. (Perhaps Vi was intentionally being silly, but, considering how the SW6 have been depicted thus far, I’m not so sure.)

However, there are also many standout moments in these issues, such as Vakk’s heartbreaking attempt to put Dirk out of his misery by shutting off his life support. The battle scenes also continue to be well choreographed and to move the story forward.

The drama continues to build in these issues. However, I’m glad I get to read them all in a few sittings. Trying to keep track of all the characters and plotlines on a month-to-month basis would be enormously confusing and would put a strain on my patience. Giffen and crew have truly written a novel here, but, as with most novels, the chapters are not as satisfying as the whole.