Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Volume 21

Awww. Thanks, He Who. I do have to admit that even issues which still have great personal value to me, such as Baxter 14, have not escaped the bittersweet tinge that comes with admitting to myself that even the very best, most sincere "alternate history" fan fiction can never fully erase the missed opportunities which plagued the Baxter era. And having learned to look more objectively at the Legion saga as a whole, this era is much, much patchier than I ever realized until now. Your comparison near the end of your review of Baxter 14 to a beautifully decorated cake that tastes bland is well-taken.



This, too, is arguably a generational thing. With me having been a kid and a tween during the 80s, I feel more of a grudging tolerance for that era's trope -- in comic books, TV cartoons, movies -- of the cutesy, saccharine, little childlike comedy-relief mascot figure. Quislet, I think, is basically the Legion's counterpart to Slimer, the cute, squeaky-voiced "good little ghost" from the TV cartoon series based on the original Ghostbusters movie. And I am well aware that Slimer and all the other "cute mascots" tend to be very unpopular within the various fandoms. So, for the moment, I'll just say that I do like Slimer, and I do like Quislet (and, for that matter, I do also like Uni the unicorn from "Dungeons & Dragons,") but I dislike most of the other "cute mascots" from the 80s. And in the end, they simply are what they are -- a time-stamped trope that seems quaint in hindsight.



ROTFLMAO That should be this forum's Quote of the Week, if there is such a title.



And yet again with Levitz and his fan-wank! I think you summed it all up very well, He Who. I seriously have to wonder whether Levitz's Executive VP position within the company allowed him to get away with indulgences such as this more than others creators. Karen Berger has never come across to me as a wallflower -- could she, at this point, have possibly felt resigned to the idea that the Legion was damned if she did get tougher with Levitz, yet equally damned if she didn't?




I have come to believe that, with the exceptions of LSH 284-289, and several good issues scattered throughout the Baxter era, there was something oddly remote and detached about Levitz's Legion writing as a whole. It could all quite possibly boil down to, "Levitz was too reverent towards the Legion, while Giffen was too irreverent." Unfortunately, I can't remember right now which Legion Worlder made that observation recently. Either way, it's a point well-taken.

Thanks, Annfie. I've come to realize that being critical of the stories I loved growing up takes nothing away from my love for them. If anything, it makes me drill deeper to uncover what truly made them memorable in the first place. I can also appreciate what really does work in each story.



For my generation, I can't think of anything that was comparable to the "cute mascot" in comics, though certain TV series such as The Partridge Family tried to introduce a younger kid character ("Cousin Ralph") with disastrous consequences. Comics, like TV shows, never seem to know what to do with the idea of characters and fans growing up. They want to create a youthful or comical "mascot" to appeal to kids--not realizing that kids tend like the older characters to begin with. Even the JLA had Snapper Carr, a character who was phased out long before I started reading the book.

By the time I started getting into comics, the Teen Titans were growing up and the Legion never needed a sidekick or mentor. Shows like Shazam--which featured an adult mentor (even named Mentor) for Billy Batson--seemed odd and even a throwback to an earlier time. That said, I had no problem reading older stories of Batman and Robin (or watching Electra Woman and Dyna Girl) because, I suppose, the young characters were treated as partners, not second-rate or comical sidekicks. I think that's how I wanted to be: a partner, not a sidekick.



Good observation. While I know you're no fan of Giffen's, I think the combination of his creative vision and Levitz's added something unique to the Legion. Levitz brought the reverence and fanboy love of the team and its history. Giffen brought a sense of unpredictability and willingness to poke the characters (and the fans) in the face. Together, they created something true to what had gone before but able to branch out in new and unexpected directions. By himself, Levitz didn't really have the push to go to the next level.

I'm looking forward to re-reading her story arc as well. It was truly unprecedented for a rejected applicant to






I've come realize and grudgingly accept that human "heroes" have flaws and ways of rationalizing decisions that may seem unfair to outsiders. I can accept a degree of this in my fictional heroes if it's presented for a good reason. Comments such as Shady describing CQ as shallow seem consistent with how I've come to experience and observe organizations. A higher standard might suggest that it doesn't matter if a person is shallow so long as she's a good Legionnaire, but so much depends on heroes working with each other in close proximity and coming to depend on one another for their lives. The Legionnaires don't have to like each other, but they do have to be able to anticipate what to expect from each other. A shallow person does not leave a good first impression.




That's an interesting take on EB's potential limitation--though it wasn't clear to me that it took a long time for him to create the globe. Energy Boy's power seemed similar to that of Molecule Master (Superboy 201), which impressed the Legion enough that MM passed the initial round of tests. (Too bad he turned out to be a robot bent on poisoning the Legion.)

Where EB may have failed, however, was in his inability to recover from Polar Boy's surprise attack. Unlike Jed, EB could not respond to the unexpected.

Comments


The next generation of the LSV or prisoners of Nardo II’s space prison?



Only a select few making it into the main team may have a rough analogy in a top sports team. They all have academies, but relatively few make it through. Youngsters also have the problem of more experienced players being in their position (Jed and his powers duplicating active members), the club being more impressed with exciting outside talent than what they’ve nurtured (Quislet), occasional nepotism, where academy places given to sons/ brothers of existing players (Magnetic Kid) and that marquee signing when a new chairman takes over/ wants to stamp his authority on things (Sensor Girl)

Although Levitz brought in a broad range of surprises here, it shows that the Academy class won’t necessarily all transition into the main team, even if there are vacancies. I say “necessarily” as the Adventure Comics team around the time of v6 had a much higher transition (Chemical Kid, Glorith, Dragonwing, Comet Queen). Abnett and Lanning tried a different approach to this in Hypernaturals, where the team have a maximum of three, five-year, tours of duty. That resulted in more substantial personnel changes, but staggered over 15 year periods.

But you tell, even in the Hypernaturals that a team’s success depends on how good the characters are. Behind the scenes in the Legion, there’s decisions to be made on just how well the characters would work in the team. Readers will have formed bonds with the Academy students, some of whom may have just been convenient foils for spotlight issues, such as Wildfire’s, or placeholders to bulk up an Academy class as in #304. Spending the time on giving such characters intricate backstories goes beyond what was required for the issue. But with those characters in place, it seems as though they are getting short shrift from the writers by not fulfilling their goals.



I imagine that this was a tough meeting for a couple of them. Lydda is on extended leave with Rokk and Brek has had his eyes opened a little in recent adventures. But some of the others may have wanted to continue, only to find the band breaking up around them. So they choose to gracefully “retire.”

Since Levitz was building to both further adventures of Lydda and Brek, I imagine that Giffen leapt at the opening this presented to give a final Subs adventure.



The nepotism and being in the shadow of his brother is really part of his story arc. I’m not sure if it was always supposed to be like that, or if general reaction had any part to play. But the final issues of v3 pick it up.

From the last couple of points, it’s worth asking what makes a good Legion applicant?

A character hook?
A story arc?
Distinctive powers? – presumably bolted onto the Legion rule on unique powers.
A character with visual powers?
Personality? – Promoting empathy, or rarer antipathy, to catch reader attention.

Violating the code against killing before your try out is a big no. Once you’re in there’s self defence or not knowing your powers too well to get you past that.

And the powers have to be natural to prevent the team being taken over and called Spiffany’s Legion of Spanglies!

Pol has the hook of being an academy student, which is a body that a number of readers want to see members come from. He’s survived a fireballing incident.

His arc is one of following in his brother’s footsteps and finding his own place as a hero.

His powers are unique as far as the active Legion is concerned. Odd that no one else from Braal was shown at the try outs though. That could have made it interesting. Everyone must have known Rokk was one of the members leaving active duty.

The magnetic effects shown by Rokk have been pretty distinctive, so Pol has that.

I’d agree that he doesn’t have a definite personality as yet. Looking closer…At the Academy, people spoke around him about the try outs. They told him that he’d be sure to get in. There’s an expectation that he would be chosen. He ends up throwing them all away with his powers having had enough of the chatter. His patience has limits, and he feels the weight of expectation.
In the try out issue, he’s unsure until tutored by Brainy. He pleasantly surprised by his success. Having achieved something positive, he’s happy enough to get on with the task of shoring up a falling structure. So, he’s untested, a little unsure about the extent of his powers but calm (compared to the others) and responsible.

Levitz could have made Pol a bitter fire-balling survivor with a chip on his shoulder. Indeed, there was a hint that it was Rokk moving more down that road. Pol’s fairly vanilla, like Silver Age Rokk, with less experience.

Later, Levitz would get criticised for bringing in edgier, wilder younger heroes into he team. The general thinking being that it would inject energy into the team. He had to move the other way to show the next candidates (Otaki and Mwindaji) as being far more mature. So, it’s a tough balance.

Overall, I think Pol has enough about him to get in.



Good point. I do think it was firmly the weight of her personality, experience, leadership and the occasion. And a little that Jan was leader and his bond with Imra. Not that’s I’d put it past Imra when she considers something has “the best of reasons”



Newsstand Boy here had no clue.



I’ve enjoyed Dev-Em’s appearances. His personality offers a nice peer level contrast to the main team. I’d not have wanted him as a member though. Having said that, I’d have picked him over Atmos and certainly Earth Man.



I thought both Lar and Brainy have embraced their seniority well of late. With Rokk and Imra going, there is a need for strong personalities to be in there.


I always like the jaunts around Earth, even if they do fall into keeping tourist landmarks from our time in place.



… mainly in vats.

Leia’s Comments

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According to my "Comics Survey," Crisis #7 hit the stands just a few weeks after Legion # 14. Here's how they ranked the week of June 25, 1985:

1. Dreadstar & Company # 4 -- Marvel/Epic
2. Crisis on Infinite Earths # 7 -- DC
3. Legion of Super-Heroes # 14 -- DC
4. West Coast Avengers # 1 -- Marvel
5. Vision & Scarlet Witch # 1 -- Marvel
6. Blue Devil # 16 -- DC
7. Fury of Firestorm # 40 -- DC
8. All-Star Squadron # 49 -- DC
9. Zot! # 9 -- Eclipse
10. New Teen Titans (Annual) # 1 -- DC

11. Justice League of America # 243 -- DC
12. Green Lantern # 192 -- DC
13. Squadron Supreme # 2 -- Marvel
14. Fantastic Four # 282 -- Marvel
15. Amazing Spider-Man # 269 -- Marvel
16. Avengers # 260 -- Marvel
17. Nexus # 13 -- First
18. E-Man # 25 -- First
19. New Teen Titans # 12 -- DC
20. Iron Man # 198 -- Marvel

21. Star Trek # 19 -- DC
22. New Defenders # 147 -- Marvel
23. Marvel Tales # 179 -- Marvel
24. Flash # 350 -- DC
25. Red Tornado # 3 -- DC
26. Tales of the New Teen Titans # 57 -- DC
27. Captain America # 309 -- Marvel
28. Infinity Inc. # 18 -- DC
29. Ambush Bug # 4 -- DC
30. Masked Man # 1 -- Eclipse

31. Mask Prevue--DC
32. Dalgoda # 5 -- Fantagraphics
33. Megaton Man # 3 -- Kitchen Sink

Some of the same issues are repeated from last time because I was doing the chart on a weekly basis and next issues weren't always published on a regular monthly schedule. Rather than having series routinely drop out and re-enter the chart, I devised a system where points were deducted from the current issue's score after four weeks or so. This would cause them to drop in ranking (and thus give priority to series with newer issues) while remaining on the chart.

A big problem with nobody knowing what Sensor Girl's powers are, yet trusting Saturn Girl enough to vote her in

Typical organizational behavior: Rules and common sense go out the window when your founder asks for a favor.

More Comments



I think that his powers were already in the team too.



There seemed to be a need for at least one telepath. I don’t think they were enamoured with either, but they could have had both Tellus and Mentalla on the team.



Another way of looking at this is that Levitz has developed the personalities of the team to the point that they have individual allegiances, grievances and foibles. As a result, sometimes the decisions are flawed. In the old days Dream Girl would just get the vote of all the boys.



Good point. There is only so much room in the book, but perhaps a holo at least would have given some closure there. Perhaps Levitz had some further plans for Jed that never happened, while the others stayed at the academy? Who can tell, and that why a holo or something would have been nice.


Good point EDE. Could Jed’s prominence been part of a little bait and switch here?



A sort of Jericho/ Life Lass crossover. I recall he brought some interesting perspective to some discussions later on, sort of in the way Brin would solve subplots in a single line.

Quislet was a definite attempt to have a outright fun character in the team. Perhaps it was the creative team being aware of the darker options available in the Baxter book. With Pol, Ayla and Tellus taking over the three founder roles, power wise perhaps Quislet was an attempt to personify the whimsy of those early stories.



Ironically, all the kids in my area chopped off their limbs and replaced them with cutlery and utensils in an attempt to be just like Herbie.



I think her powers could have resulted in a lot of time in the background, plot wise, if she had got in. I do wonder if she would have got in if Giffen had stayed on the book.



I agree that Blok’s comments on who had been admitted in battle were clunky. The dialogue could have been improved.

I think you’re right that this issue is firmly based in Legion traditions. I’m not a huge fan of introspective team issues as they often result in naval gazing. But with the Legion so often fighting to save Orando or fighting the Controllers and Trappers of the galaxy, I didn’t mind this issue as a change of pace. If anything, Levitz takes advantage of the inward-looking opportunity to add in extra layers of it. From flag saluting, to try outs to Element Lad-like admissions to seeds for villainous rejects etc.

The number of Avengers issues that grind to a halt as they pause to discuss their bylaws…



In a missing scene Garth turns up and tries to get Graym in as Kid Holdur



I was wondering about the others too. Later on, Brek would cheekily ask Lydda if she was interested in joining. Later, the humorous Subs would get to join in the 5YG. So their retirement didn’t stick for long, and I wonder if they held any animosity against Brek for the forced break up.




That’s an interesting view of the issue. You’re right that there isn’t any single protagonist. Would more of a Pol or Jed spotlight have worked better? Seeing the process through the eyes of an applicant?

I was excited at the spectacle of the process, the regular twists and the potential of the final selections. The bright Lightle art pushed it all up a notch too. I still feel that way about the issue, while I’ve found other recent ones such as the Controller story quite flat.



Looking back you can see that Levitz put in extra design work on her because of the subplot that would follow. Her power demonstration is a set up for her final story.



Interesting take on him. I’ll watch for that.

… works furiously on an All Quislet/ Comet Queen team up book…

Crisis X-Over!
Multiverse explodes!
CQ: Woah! Novaburn to the max!
Q: Material universes are sillies!



I do wonder if I picked up on Brek’s behaviour ruining Energy Boy’s chances as much as making an entrance for himself, the first time I read this.



But the Nuklo Globe was only one aspect of his powers! Poor kid.

I always thought, that his power was eerily close to the display of the Molecule Master in the last open tryout. I’ve a Lost Legion post on that somewhere. Brek could actually have been disrupting a villainous agent. A final example of the Subs solving a case and getting no credit at all.



Another really interesting take on things. I’d read them later, but I like the focused, earnestness of the Silver Age Legion. I don’t think age really crosses my mind as they dedicate themselves to their work.

But their personalities could be completely shaped by a single story as there wasn’t a lot there to go on.

I guess the more that happens, the firmer those personalities become and you end up with later writers using that for subplots. Would keeping the Legion free of too many personal subplots have worked in later publishing ages? For the pettiness some of them show, it’s only some and, it’s a far cry from the Avengers coming to blows all the time.

I can’t recall it affecting a mission, but certainly there are tensions behind the scenes.



As I started reading your comment, I was about to mention that the Jan story was in a single issue. It’s going to be interesting to see how that develops over a much longer period. I remember the impact it had on Brainy.



Interesting background on cute mascots. I’ll find out as we go just how annoying I felt Quislet became, if at all. At the moment, he’s shiny and new. I’m trying to remember if I found Uni terribly endearing or annoying. I think I was more annoyed that no one gave the Paladin kid a decent sword.



I guess the balance for books using their own past for stories against breaking new, and arguably riskier, territory is different for each reader. It’s definitely an issue that revels in aspects of Legion lore, with try outs being the big focus. But I certainly felt it had more life to it than the Controller story or the Lightning Lass spotlight. Even some of the opening arc. Like you I felt that 13-15 was a brighter spot in the run. Well 13-14 if the net one is the Regulus issue.

For an exercise a while back, I broke down the Levitz plots into his plotting diagram and they are relatively consistent. Like HWW mentioned some of them managed to come across as flat, That was even when the plotting steps looked much the same as issues around them. I don’t think it was really a case of Levitz’s VP position pushing plots through. After all, he’s about to get a big “Rejected!” for something he started in this issue. That he got it into this issue makes me wonder how much Berger knew about it. For me, the last couple of issues reflect well on Berger, as they brought a spark back into things.

One thing from the breakdowns was how easy it was to become more focussed on the interlinking sub-plots and their momentum than the character beats that made up those scenes. I wonder if that contributes to the remoteness you mention?







Me too!



Good spot HWW! If they weren’t going to let in Jed after succeeding there, they weren’t going to let in Sulk Boy.



“Now I want you to trust me on another new Legionnaire.”
“I am one of the Legion’s founders.”
“All I’m asking for is an open vote…”
“Trust me…”
Intense look, that makes me remember Cramer’s comment.

She really is reminding them of all the good things she’s done for them. I wonder how the open vote went. Did Wildfire say no? Or did he see the way the others voted and resigned himself? With the personalities that the Legionnaires now have, this sort of decision can cause real division. I wonder if Drake brings this up in the issues to come.

You know, there's really no reason why they couldn't have admitted both Tellus and Mentalla. Their powers were sufficiently different that they wouldn't have violated the duplication of powers clause, and each would have brought something unique to the team.

I think this gets back to organizational thinking: You have only a limited number of slots to fill, so you want to pick the best person for each job. It's a rather nearsighted way of looking at things, but hiring and promotion decisions are usually not made by thinking outside the box.



Good point. Again, one of the things I liked about this story is that it realistically depicts how an organization goes about making hiring decisions--especially when a committee is involved. We like to think we're being objective, but, as human beings, so many factors play into our conscious, unconscious, and social choices. The Dream Girl example is quite appropriate. In another example, most of the female Legionnaires voted to exonerate Star Boy during his trial back in Adv. 342. It could be argued that this was a sexist choice on the part of the writer, but I also think it makes some human sense that people vote with those who are most like them (in this case, the girls voted with the girls). Hell, recent US elections have shown there is much truth in this.



I'll have to revisit this idea of having an "outright fun character." In theory, I have nothing against it provided there is more than one aspect to the character's personality. Chuck, for example, was arguably a "fun character"--one who resembled a beach ball and bounced! But Chuck also had a multi-faceted personality. On one hand, he didn't take himself too seriously; on the other, he was an underdog: the overweight kid who nevertheless had much confidence in himself, even when he lost his power--twice. Of course, he also got the girl.

I'm not sure Quislet ever exhibited so many dimensions, but we'll see.



The kids in my neighborhood all wanted to be like Hawkman, so we glued together feathers from birds and jumped off buildings.



That's a good question. I don't know that the focus should have been on a single applicant, but I would like a sense that something is at stake. While we're *told* much is at stake--the Legion needs new members and each applicant has his or her own dreams--I'm not really feeling it or feeling why it matters to any particular character. I'm not sure why Pol even wants to join the Legion, for example. (It may have been mentioned somewhere, but not here.) I think it would have been great if we'd gotten some insight into the pressures he's under. I mean, the kid even uses his brother's costume and the name of a long-ago Legion infiltrator. What would cause a person to do such things instead of trying to establish his own identity?

The only clue we get to Pol's personality is that he helps a potential teammate (Tellus) in battle; I like to think this is what swayed the votes in his favor, nepotism aside. However, I still have no idea what's at stake for Pol.



All of those are good points. The issue has a lot going for it, but it's not what it could have been.

Mentalla also seemed much more proficient and sure with her powers. I wonder if its ineffectiveness on non-organic, non-living opponents (i.e. robots) had been considered. Tellus' telekinesis did not have that drawback. But then, this wasn't articulated by anyone in the issue.



There's a bit of wiggle room here, I think. I agree that the EFFECTS of his powers (becoming super strong and invulnerable) were on the team in spades. He didn't display any density reduction in this issue, nor do I recall it in previous ones. But if the Legion would let Karate Kid and Timber Wolf, and arguably even Ferro Lad in after already having Mon-El and Ultra Boy... all of these are variants on "I hit hard, and can take or avoid a hit". If the writers had really wanted Jed in, they could have found a loophole. As EDE said, perhaps the biggest strike against Jed was his Adult Legion "fate".



Those are interesting perspectives, thothy and HWW. This makes me think as to the extent of my criticism re Levitz's Legion's infighting and tension. I admit, my opinion may be colored by my growing up with the Reboot Legion: that team had a lot of sarcasm and snark, but it tended to be more like friends twiddling each other's noses. There was considerably more camaraderie (with the notable exceptions of Umbra, and early Reboot Brainiac 5, and later DNA Ultra Boy and Timber Wolf). Little things like Kinetix and Monstress and Kid Quantum II all teasing XS on her crushes, or the girls having a slumber party, or Gates and Ultra Boy manning a soup kitchen together, Monstress buying Sensor hats. I found this camaraderie missing in the Levitz Legion. There were friendships, but there were also many biting remarks (Sun Boy would make one when Star Boy leaves Dream Girl to return to Xanthu, and she would retaliate by attacking Laurel Kent; Element Lad's comment on Timber Wolf trying to steal Saturn Girl away from Lightning Lad; Lightning Lass destroying Polar Boy's ice sculptures when he campaigns for Legion leader; the many interpersonal conflicts during the later Espionage Squad mission against Starfinger; Dream Girl being so excited about the leadership that she ignores Shadow Lass' shock at finding out a Servant of Darkness is based on her ancestor; Jan making a snide aside to Cham when Jo is overconfident with his powers on the Controller's world, etc.).

They were very professional in battle as you said (except Quislet, who is never professional :p), but everything else made me wince.

Not that the Silver Age/Adventure Era was free from this; many of the earlier stories were quite bad (i.e. treatment of rejected applicants). But the team cohesion as friends was certainly better towards the end of that Age. In End of an Era, the Time Trapper chose to make doppelgangers of the Adventure Era Legion because the team was at the height of its camaraderie then.

Those are great points, Ibby. The reboot did a much better job of creating a sense of fun among the various Legion relationships.

I think it should be said, though, that the reboot Legionnaires were depicted as teens whereas the Levitz Legionnaires were much older. Priorities change as people move into their 20s: slumber parties and teasing each other over crushes become things of the past, and adult forms of interaction take over (such as Jo, Tinya, Lar, and Shady sitting around a table, having lunch). Also, relationships change as people change, so some of the biting remarks, etc., may be a sign of people who've known each other for a long time and have become very comfortable (maybe too comfortable) with each other. Among teens, there is more of a sense of discovery among new relationships. (That said, teens often compete by hitting each other, insulting each other, and playing questionable pranks. The Legion never really engaged in that sort of behavior.)

The Silver Age touched somewhat on the teenaged ways of having fun and making friends. There was that machine that revealed who enjoyed kissing whom, dance crazes, etc. But these were just kind of asides to establish the ages of the characters (and probably allow readers to identify with them--many later superhero stories would be "all business"). Because serialized stories were not the norm in those days, there was little effort to show such friendships develop over time. The reboot did a much more naturalistic job of this.

You bring up a good point about age and familiarity, HWW. For example, in the Sun Boy - Dream Girl example I cited. Dirk might not have been intending to hurt Nura; I remember him falling silent after she fought back. It might have been light-hearted teasing from his perspective, and he simply didn't realize how hurt Nura was.

It could also be that the older Levitz-era Legionnaires were starting to focus on other things. Marriages, families, the occasional career outside the Legion (besides Brainy, Dirk at least pursued some sort of scientific career). Thus, they may have had less patience and energy for getting along with teammates they simply didn't like. Teens, on the other hand, tend to place more importance on fitting in and making friends. Thus, they would care less about making snide and cutting remarks. Even if their teammates were offended, what mattered most would be the professional side (i.e. I think you're a stuck-up snob and I loathe you as a person, but I will defend you in battle because that's our job).

Not my cup of tea, and personally not what I would look for if I were to join a hero team. That's why I prefer the Legion as teenagers; for the escapist value

Yeah, there should be some change or depth as the series progresses. That’s possibly why Comet Queen got the reaction she did. There’s little chance of her changing, and we’ve already had an origin story showing as much depth as there was likely to be.

There’s a Quislet subplot later, so it will be interesting if he’s outstayed his welcome by that point, and if that point adds that depth.

Devil’s Advocate Lass has just told me that, by looking to add additional layers to characters, there’s the danger of straying too far from the original concept that makes the character tick. That can lead to a move towards having to reboot things, which has had mixed success.



The kids in my neighbourhood played bullets and bracelets from Wonder Woman. Police thought there was a crazed gang war going on when the first casualties reached the hospital.




Fair point. I think the choice between Mentalla or Tellus was as close to that as we got, which isn’t very close at all. I felt Jed’s disappointment, but the successful candidates did get in without us seeing any reactions from them.




It’s a good point about what’s at stake for him. He moved to Earth because his parents did. They moved because of Rokk. So, Pol had to go along with that. We don’t get to see the important post fireball and pre Academy part of his life. Presumably the lose of a parent and the act itself was a catalyst to his decision to join the Academy. But he could have made other choices.

Good point on the name too. Does Pol never feel comfortable in his own skin, feeling like a bit of a fake compared to people like his brother? Does he feel he should have saved his parents? Does he feel he can never be good enough, as he feels he failed them? I’m not sure we ever get hints along those lines.



Thanks for sharing your further thoughts on Mentalla. Imra might have had similar issues against Computo-like foes and she got in. (in a different era, which one of them pointed out would have made a difference when judged against current requirements).

The “second rate” comment does stand out, as we don’t really see why. Unless it really is a simple as the way she came across, as slightly hinted at. She’s no worse than a lot of previous candidates, confidently declaring their powers.



Oh absolutely. If the writers wanted him in they would have found some way of that happening. Blok being another example. Since Imra used Element Lad’s origin in this issue, Jed’s back story could have had him be found by ruthless killers, wanting to use him to get anything from secret plans to relics Supergirl didn’t pick up in her try out test. Jed is the last of the Dense People from the planet Critic, and so the killers are targeting him. Jed is much safer in the Legion, says Jan, as he asks the team for an open vote.



Good point and it prompted me to realise that this worked for me the other way. I found the lighter tone with the absence of all those little relationship twists from the Levitz era made it tougher for me to get into the Postboot. I didn’t stick around for the new relationships to really develop and capture my interest. There were other reasons that we’ll get to one day, but the weight of all that past being gone certainly played a part.

From the Companion books, Levitz does have mature templates in mind for his Legion, and they are true to those templates, resulting in many of the examples you give. You’re absolutely right to show they were there right from the start too. The Legion grew up, and they had a lot in common with the rest of us. The Postboot rightly tried to make the most of a clean slate.

I completely agree about the Silver Age. They were right meanies and make the Levitz Legion look lovely. A hint of losing your powers? You will be found out in elaborate tests and sent down the walk of shame! Walk on the right hand side of the corridor when it’s left side walking week? A violation of the numerous constitution subclauses! Don’t even think of returning to HQ to collect your things! Out!



That camaraderie was at least partly because they were also at the height of where their personalities could be shaped, as they had been fairly blank before. Which like the Infinite Man taking the Trapper round the block, takes me back to an earlier comment.

Lightle, if he'd stayed longer, might have provided the push. Last year, he shared a lot of stuff of FB about his brief Legion run, and he said that a lot of stuff he'd co-plotted with Levitz carried over into the LaRocque issues. LaRocque certainly had his pluses and minuses, but I still think he's been underappreciated, which is why I'm excited about getting into his Legion issues. Which brings me to...



Ahem. I *did* say in an earlier post here that it's not nearly as well-written as 13 and 14. I do think it deserves credit for its self-contained nature, its accessibility, and LaRocque making what I feel is a good first impression. I will, naturally, elaborate when we reach that issue.



I agree these last couple issues reflect well on Berger. But, in the end, there was only so much she could do to shield the book from the wall of anti-matter.



No, I just think Levitz was too afraid to upset the apple cart.

I'm with you, Ibby. There was a real easy-going warmth to the Postboot, even when the stories were lacking during most of '98-'99. The Hamilton/Siegel issues had a similar quality. Levitz, in my opinion, was more a castles-in-the-sand kind of writer -- without solid, substantial characterization (as opposed to relying on archetypes whether or not they fit the characters they were assigned to,) there was no foundation to protect Levitz's elaborate plot-and-action constructs from being eroded by the tide of time. (Mixed Metaphors Lass?)

I’d argue that Levitz was the next level, brining far more sophisticated characterisation and plot structure to the book. That’s present right from his first issue. By joining with Giffen fairly early on, the book went up a few more notches still. I think it’s the absence of those extra levels that makes it seem that the book has fallen back. But it’s still broadly back to a higher level that it was before he got there.



…and



We’re really of different opinions on this. It’s going to be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on the upcoming issues. From what I recall, I think what we both consider to be the peaks and troughs of the run are at different points too. That always makes for a good discussion.

Li’l thoth in Elsenwhen

The Best of Legion Digest #64 is Legion themed!

Reread – Superboy and the Five Legion Traitors; The Secret of the Mystery Legionnaire; The Triumph of the Legion of Super Villains; The Super Moby Dick of Space; The WAR Between Krypton and Earth; The Unknown Legionnaire and take a look at the Legion HQ (Rocketship – Sherman; Complex – Janes; Levitating one – Giffen)

Levitz notes remind me that Superboy and the Five Legion Traitors was supposed to take place on Earth 3. That clears up something I wondered about in my Bits notes.

Levitz points out that Supergirl’s only appearance as an ordinary member, sans Kryptonite story hooks, of the LSH in the Adventure run Adventure #374.

Mindy Newall continues her run on Wonder Woman story that leads into Crisis. I wonder if the output of the New Talent Showcase running into a DC relaunch with big gun creators, got in the way of writers such as Newell.

DC Comics Presents is a Superman/ Swamp Thing story by Alan Moore, Veitch and Williamson. I was probably just a little young to appreciate it.

Firestorm fights the Weasel. I keep thinking that each time I do this section it’s going to be the issue I remember getting into Firestorm. Now I think what happened is that I got a good number of slightly earlier back issues and its those I remember more fondly.

The JLA cover is a reprise of the JSA/ A:SS crossover. With Aquaman finding Mera as the central panel. Amazo easily outmatches the JL:Detroit. So it’s going to take more than brawn next issue if they want to defeat him.

The Losers Special is a Crisis Tier-in. But the story, with a chapter form each members history and point of view, doesn’t actually match the Crisis book. It suggests that this is their post Crisis fate.
Tales of the Titans continues a Fearsome Five story I liked a lot, and still do. Like the Legion, the intertwining subplots raise the level of the book.

With Wolfman on Crisis and Titans duty, Paul Kupperberg writes Vigilante 21 where it’s Nightwing against Adrian Chase. Kupperberg also writers the Vigilante Annual.

In the Baxter Titans book, the team are involved in a ghost story.

The Flash has his penultimate issue, and the plot has really broadened into time travelling foes and changed futures. I got #350, but hadn’t picked up these last few issues at the time.

The Teen Titans Annual introduces the cosmic Vanguard. It’s really a pilot annual for them, and a Superman/Brainiac story second with the Titans filling in the rest of the cast. I remember picking this up from a small, out of the way book shop as a back issue, and being really bored by it. An early disappointment.

Kathy Sutton convinces Red Tornado not to turn his back on the world. A lot of other heroes make early cameos. With JLD and Crisis about, it’s a rare occasion to see all the big guns together. The lettercol talks about new directions and a possible Red Tornado special. This might have been a post Flash Infantino ongoing series. But there’s not much at the heart of the story that hasn’t been done in some Conway JLA issues.

Detective 554, sees the launch of a new Black Canary costume and that convoluted mother and daughter in the same body thing is moved past.
The Ambush Bug mini comes to a close.

Superman 411 gives us the last Earth-Prime story. There’s a nice part (well, not for the character) where an aEarth-1 Julius comes up with Ultra Man just as Superman appears, scuppering sales. The same happens when Bats, Flash and Wondy appear after he creates Night Wizard, Jet Jordan and Madame Miracle. I can’t say I’m a big Earth Prime fan though.

A great Bolland cover graces Action 571, no doubt boosting sales. Sold out before I got anywhere near it.

Halo totally blabs Batman’s secret identity to Kobra at the end of Bato 25! The Bato annual focuses on a Rex and Sapphire marriage. I guess it didn’t end well since they would all run around the same little plot circle for years afterwards.

There’s not much John Stewart in GL 192 that focuses on Hal and Star Sapphire in a number of flashbacks.

In All Star, it’s a small team against Wotan. The villain has taken over the mind of the Shining Knight reminding me of the opening arc of the Busiek Avengers run.

A small month for me with the JLA, A:SS, DC Comics Presents and Tales of the Titans by the look of it. Looks like I picked up this month’s Who’s Who and Crisis on a trip after this.

Aye! A good discussion shall indeed be had.

That’s an interesting take on Levitz, Fanfie. I would need to reread his run again to form an opinion on his characterization. Some Legionnaires like Violet went through major changes under him, but I can’t really say how flat or dynamic his characters were

Ibby's point about the personalities and attitudes between members is brought up in the letter column of the next issue. The letter talks about the infighting of the team and a preference to read about people who risked their lives for each other. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but the letter makes it's point earlier on, when the writer talks about the "exceptional comradeship, the optimism they share despite the situation, and, most importantly, their total vehemence to killing," that he prefers in the book. The letter talks about the recent killings too. I mention that because the response from Levitz says that "in part, it worries us a bit too." That might mean just the killings, but the response could easily cover the earlier points too.

While the point of #13 is one of hope, I thought the tone of #14 was a lot brighter. Perhaps that's from Levitz's thoughts, expressed n the lettercol, on the tone. We've talked before about the darker options available, and used, by Levitz with Giffen to launch the Baxter book (I even typed "darker" instead of "Baxter" there in a Freudian slip). We might have seen more of that had Giffen remained. Any partnership would readjust when one leaves and perhaps the book is shifting back. Perhaps that's given an extra boost with the recent (well, an issue or so ) lighter tone of Lightle's influence.



Reaches into kitbag for protective WW I helmet. Finds Fickles has drawn a target on it while I wasn't looking. Raises helmet into the dawn sky as the first barrage starts to find its range... "Fiiiiiiicklessss!!!!!!"

Later...busted by Combat Cheeks for drawing the enemy's attention to our position...double duties...bother...

It occurs to me, after what myself and others have been saying in this thread about the teens dynamic vs adults dynamic, that perhaps there was a major missed opportunity in not continuing Tales of the LSH, still as a newsstand book, but with new material instead of Baxter reprints, and focusing on the newer members and/or the Legion Academy. That might have helped expand the Legion's fanbase beyond the cult which had been loyally following the original members for close to 30 years at this point. True, when DC did try it years from now, first with "Legionnaires," and later with the Legion Academy spotlight in the "Adventure Comics" revival, the concept didn't seem to gain enough traction to warrant continuing. On the other hand, a lot of it might have had more to do with company politics than with actual sales and fan response? Either way, I have come to believe that by focusing on the older members and the longtime fans who bought the Baxter book through the direct market, DC and Warners missed a golden opportunity to build on the increased popularity of the Legion between '83 and '86 by venturing into animation and other cross-promotion. But then again, there's the whole aforemetioned Crisis thing...

Re the Legion Academy spotlight, it focused on younger characters and had a "school" vibe. I contrast it to the Reboot Legion; Shvaughn Erin was interviewed in LSH Secret Files 1 and put it in this wonderful way:

Interviewer: What impressed you the most about the Legionnaires?

Shvaughn: That they're exactly what they project. They're heroes, and they're prepared to give their lives for a cause bigger than themselves. None of it is an illusion. None of it is for the publicity.

Interviewer: What concerns you most about them?

Shvaughn: I don't know. I sometimes think they're going to look back someday and wish they'd wasted their youth a bit more - had a little more fun. But don't get the idea that they're these fanatical zealots for the cause, or anything... it's just that they're SO responsible, a lot more than I ever was at their age.

Interviewer: And what surprised you most about them?

Shvaughn: Their filthy mouths! They curse like merchant spacemen. Everything is grife this, sprock that, squadge this, frack that... I guess it releases the pressure, but they're so decent in every other way, it surprises you when they open their mouths. Oh God, they're going to be mad at me when they read this.

The SW6 Legionnaires were closer to the Reboot; but even then we had these horrible jerks Live Wire and Inferno being mean to Cera Kesh, Garth punching Cos in the face because of jealousy over Imra...

Now there's a topic for a new thread - "The kids in my neighbourhood...". Come on everybody, join in. I want to read what read all the answers.


The closest we get to an answer is a page back in the aforementioned #304. Grev (Shadow Kid) and Pol are having a relaxed chat, sharing their backgrounds and semi-comradeship of being Legionnaire's "little brothers". Pol expresses his admiration for Rokk and that he is sorry it took so long for him to decide to follow in his brother's footsteps. Grev asks him what made him finally decide to take up playing hero. Pol's response is "Oh. I guess you never heard of fireballing...". Levitz is definitely pushing that the incident brought about a significant change in the direction of Pol's life.

You reminded me that Grev is another no-show at the tryouts. With Shady an active member, it was understood that he wouldn't have a chance. Still, there seems to be a sense of transition going on with supporting characters such as the Academy students and the Subs--a minor plot to emphasize the major theme of change that dominates this era of the Legion.

Thanks for reminding me of Pol's response back in 304. It not an adequate, response, though. It leaves us to guess what it means. Is he joining the Legion out of revenge against criminals (e.g., Batman's motivation); did the fireballing awake in him a sense of civic responsibility; did he want to do his late mother proud; does joining the Legion give him a sense of power to compensate for the most powerless moment of his life? There are all sorts of ways this could go.

Some thoughts based on everyone's comments:

Minor details I missed - Tasmia's hair thing, I'd alwasy figured was a perm gone wrong but Annfie pointed out that she suddenly has long hair - so it must be a hair growth machine. Oh, the wonders of the future!

The other catch was Mentalla's costume colours mirroring those of the original Saturn Girl. Pandering much? The snarky conversation we missed was: Tinya - "Gasp! Those are the exact same colours as Imra's first uniform!" Tasmia - "How tacky!"
Mentalla looks like a Barbie doll, I can almost her her squeaky voice with false humility - if there's going to be a traitor among a batch of new would-be recruits, she's the candidate (although I never saw that coming at the time). She even has a bit of Nemesis Kid look about her costume.

Thoth asked who would Jan be grouped with if he weren't leader - good question. I can't think of any particular friendship, apart from Imra (which was also shown in the SW6 Legion). He really is a loner. Maybe he and Nura have a frenemy thing going.

The chatter, gossip and sniping among the Legionnaires doesn't put me off. It makes them seem more real, not cardboard heroes. Unfortunately, as in many RL groups, it's a sign of the seeds of their own destruction. We used to have just Wildfire griping, then Tasmia and Tinya started getting a bit snide, then Thom was sinking in complaints - and so it spreads, and will spread. I used to think that the election of Polar Boy was the turning point for the downfall of the Legion, but perhaps it's the arrival of these new recruits.

HWW called the issue flat, and while I didn't find it so, I do agree that there's no one in particular to root for. If I had to pick someone, it would be Jed - and that's partly in retrospect, seeing him still struggling to be a member years later. The others are not as competent as earlier recruits - think of how Ferro Lad, Projectra and Karate Kid were immediately functional (earlier, simpler times, I know) . To see Tellus fumbling with a flight ring doesn't speak well for Academy training.

It would have been more insightful to learn what motivated the various recruits, beyond just "want to be a Legionnaire". The previous three to join, four if you include Dawnstar, didn't seek to be Legionnaires. They fell into missions and stayed, so their motivations may have been no more than "Now I feel needed".

And the kids in my neighbourhood? We got axes and swung them around, like The Persuader. We were a bad lot.