Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives Vol. 10 (DAVE EFFING COCKRUM)

He Who, I posted my comments in your story's Bits thread. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss them.

Thanks, Fanfie.

Superboy & LSH #199

Tyr returns to fulfill the foreshadowing from #197, as the creators present a sequel that is quite different than one might expect. Rather than a rematch with Tyr himself we get an offbeat story where the gun-hand is the antagonist and the Legionnaires defend a siege against their headquarters. I can see how at first blush that's quite jarring. Yet, I have to say I think the story is actually pretty good! Even though it's different than what is expected, it tells a very tight sci-fi tale with some interesting twists and turns.

I think Bates, and probably Cockrum too, were still finding their footing with full length stories and this abbreviated "feature length story" (re: 2/3 of an issue) was more in their comfort zone. And for me, it works.

It's too bad that Tyr is not followed up on again and again over the years as he could have easily become a mainstay premiere villain for the LSH. He certainly had the look. But alas, the Legion was never a franchise that kept up their villains well (a few exceptions notwithstanding). I do like in this story that he is not the driving threat, and instead plays a supporting role. It's a totally different involvement than the first time we saw him.

A critical part of this story is the "we're the weakest members" bit, and unfortunately that's not my favorite--so much so that it's almost groan worthy by this point. But a lot of they is because like many of us I've read hundreds if not thousands of Legion stories by now and it's a theme they've used a lot over 50+ years. For newcomers, it's a theme that might be refreshing and encouraging, as it's clearly an important part of Legion folklore. So I can forgive them for using it again.

I like Superboy's inclusion here because it's a well thought out bait & switch. Using Superboy in Legion stories on a regular basis is tricky business and this is a great example on how to mix it up.

Likewise, I like the usage of Cham and Jeckie's "what you thought you saw was wrong" twist. Bates has done this more than once already so there is a sense that he's going back to the well too many times. But as Walt Simonson once said about Hogun the Grim: "he can be a bit one note...but it's a good note".

Lastly, a complaint I do have is of the 5 Legionnaires, Star Boy stands around basically doing nothing. It'd be better if he has a minor role that was unique to him. On the plus side, this story introduces his new costume, which is one of the best of the era, and really IMO is a standout costume one. When I think of the LSH in the 70's, I always include in my mind Star Boy in this costume (and when I think of the 80's, it's the same plus a beard). It's totally Cockrum and its fresh and exciting to not only the LSH but comics in general in the early to mid 70's.

But this story followed the superlative full-length Fatal Five story.

I see Cobie's point about shorter stories being in Bates and/or Cockrum's comfort zone. One of the reasons I followed my novel with a novella is because it's easier to develop and less time consuming than writing a full-length work.

"The Fatal Five Who Twisted Time" may have been the only full-length story they had to offer. "The Legionnaire Bride of Starfinger" is full-length but stumbles in the third chapter. Significantly, these are the only two full-length stories the team attempted.

Yes, but what I'm inferring is just because they got it right once doesn't mean they were ready to do that every month. They may not have realized how good it was or were simply too overwhelmed by it before doing another one.

HWW is right in what I mean. I think clearly at this point both Bates and Cockrum were much more comfortable doing shorter length stories at this point. I think their immediately jumping back to shorter stories with #199 is pretty telling and backs that up.

In fact, over in Flash, Bates would often have a GL or other feture backing up the main story so that he was doing a Feature Length story (2/3 of the issue), and in the issues where he didn't, he often did what Broome & Infantino did in the Silver Age and gave two half issue stories. Meanwhile, Cockrum never was fully comfortable doing monthly full length stories, which is obvious with his only doing X-Men on a bi-monthly basis the first time around. In fact, for almost all of his career, besides his second run on X-Men, Cockrum was never able to commit to a monthly full-length schedule. (Not that there is anything wrong that--no one remembers output or timeliness, they only remember how brilliant it was, which in Dave's case, it usually was quite).

^

PS - it's amazing to think that in 1974 DC Comics was still not fully committed to the full length story phenomena. Most of their line in the entire first half of the 1970's were anthology titles in some way. Meanwhile, over at Marvel, most of their line had long since committed to full-length stories, even the titles like Marvel Premiere & the like, where the lead was rotated out every few issues.

I think this was one of the reasons Marvel's sales were surpassing DC's, as they were committed to showcasing their characters. I also think it was partially driven by Marvel still being an artist-driven company at this time, where artists had the clout to push to get the full amount of pages an issue offered, whereas DC was still an editorial-driven company where editors controlled titles they divied up to writers & artists.

HWW's review does a great job summing this issue up for me, as it explains why I liked this story so much and why I think it's important: it's a exemplary story of how a Legionnaire is so much more than his powers or teammates, and that heroism is about bravery, cleverness and grit. Bouncing Boy, so silly by his nature, which was very much apparent by the early 70's in less positive ways than the early 60's, is the perfect character to show this in the best way possible.

The story is plotted perfectly for 8 pages and every panel looks lush and beautiful. Chuck is capable and heroic, and he's also incredibly likable. It's a great send off before he leaves the team next issue.

I also really enjoyed all the commentary in this thread that followed on Chuck, both in this story and in general. I particularly love FC's essay and I agree wholeheartedly with it! I want Chuck to succeed, and I want him to have his teammates respect. I don't like seeing him played for laughs or be treated like a second class Legionnaire. He's never been my favorite Legionnaire but over the [strike]years[/strike] decades I've become very protective of him. In a lot of ways he encompasses the themes you often see in Spider-Man stories, except his overweight appearance and silly powers make it much more crude (and therefore, IMO, more real).

This is probably the greatest of all Bouncing Boy stories, and one of the better solo Legionnaire stories.

One final note: never trust a man with pigtails. Or a man bun. Or a head band.

Not even Lyle?

Interesting reflections on the long vs short story. I always appreciated the short, solo (or 2-3 character) stories for the insight they gave to individual characters, but a diet of short stories wouldn't have been enough. The ideal of course would be the full-length with the solo back-up/interlude, but those days are gone - except in Legion fanfic.

Regarding #200, I don't think I ever really noticed how Brainy pushed Chuck aside with the civilian comment. His advice to Lu about it being enough to be a devoted wife always raised my hackles, although it's a product of the time and the Comic Code. I like to think today's Lu would have slugged him....

It was never stated, but perhaps Brainy's concern for Luornu is some attempt to make up for Computo killing her first self. This story also provides an explanation for why she seemed so unaffected by her death in that Adventure story - so horrible that she blanked it out.

And space-passports! Thank the comic gods they got rid of that - imagine if the Legion had to clear customs every time they left the planet. (Although there was that scene with Garth & Imra in the Levitz era going through screening and she detected a smuggler - I don't recall the details off hand.)

I agree with that. It carries right the way through to post Trapper when Brainy gives Lu his force belt when he leaves the Legion.

Speaking of Orion Jr., does it creep anyone else out that the son was wearing an eyepatch just like the father did? Maybe it was just for effect, but what are the chances of them both missing an eye? Makes you wonder just how far Orion's dedication to his father went.

Oh, God, shades of Deathstroke's daughter...



No, no, that particular DCU is no more, must not think about it!

As did many of the Legionnaires, the Hunters had their 20th century ancestors too. I'd say Ralphie married up.

Forty generations of one-eyes wonders. The mind boggles!

Little known fact: the leg lamp was played by a Durlan.

^

Superboy and the LSH #200

S&LSH #200 is an iconic issue, and really a big tent pole moment in LSH history. Like most anniversary issues in comic history though, this one is a mixed bag with as much has as good if not a little more.

That being said, it's still fun to read it, if for not other reason than the gorgeous artwork. It's the iconic splash page that I can't help but get mesmerized by for the 100th time, which is one of great images in Legion history. I remember the first time I saw it was when we hunted this issue down during my teenage years. I was really shocked when I turned the page and saw the double splash. It was just that good. A few years later when I received the Archive I'm reading now, to fill in the gaps of various Superboy backups we just couldn't find original issues for, I was stunned again when I saw the double splash on better quality paper with more vibrant and lush color.

Meanwhile the story itself leaves a lot to be desired. The first part actually held up better than I remembered and did a good job setting things up, even though so much of the logic for Chuck and Luornu leaning the Legion feels forced and editorial driven. But it's the third act where the story really shits the bed. From the decision to send 4 Legionnaires to the statue of Starfinger to Superboy's annoying last minute save, there's just a whole lot to dislike. The lack of a sequence where the entire roster kicks the living shit out of Starfinger is the one I can't help but keep coming back to, and Bates is never more naked in his discomfort for a large roster than right here.

This story begins the trend of the next year to start revamping the roster as we see the exit of Duo Damsel and Bouncing Boy. Whether good or bad, it definitely marks the LSH entering new era, and combined with the new costumes, it feels fresh and exciting. Not only would Wildfire's addition be part of that "fresh" feel, but it's clear that at the time, the return of Superboy to the active roster was a big moment. It certainly was needed to keep the momentum going for the Legion's ascent to DC stardom once more. By my count--and someone tell me if I'm wrong--the Legion are still counting Supergirl as a member here. With Superboy off the roster, they refer to 25 active Legionnaires at one point. IIRC, we never see Supergirl officially leave the team, correct? Her transition to inactive member just kind of happens with the loss of Chuck, Luornu, Tenzil and Lyle?

There are a few nice bits in the story that longterm readers can read into and theorize: Brainy & Luornu's friendship and his feeling protective of her; Shady happily not attending the wedding since she and Luornu had issues (and fave LW theory of mine); Colossal Boy hooking up with the Wanderer who looks like Vi at the wedding as depicted in the splash. Okay, maybe that last one I just made up.

This story is definitely the weakest since the LSH became co-stars but one can't help but feel excited overall for the Legion in this era right now.

Ooh, I never thought of that, but now that you mention it, that makes perfect sense, especially since Tasmia is the Legionnaires I most aspire to be like, and I have a ton of issues with Preboot Luornu!

The Tasmia-Lu friction does make a lot of sense. Was there a story in which they actually worked together after the Mordru tale?

I wonder if this story would have had more resonance if Chuck had, against all odds, rescued his bride himself (with a little help from his friends) - perhaps this wasn't editorially feasible since he'd just had a solo story.

I peeked back. Initially, it looks innocuous enough. Someone has to stay back for monitor duty. Neither Shady or Mon El want to go to the wedding by themselves. they get to spend some quality time together. Shady tells Lu "May you always be happy, dear!"

So that seems fine. But that was pre Cobie.

Now Shady's comment drips with forced, surface deep friendship. Note that Mon El calls Bouncing Boy "Chuck". Not Shady. For her it's "dear." Lu's reply further embeds this. She can't bring herself to even use their names, referring to them as "Shadow Lass" and "Mon-El." Shady is at least trying for a sort of hug. But Lu can't bear it and has turned away.

As soon as the couple have gone, Shady returns to more important things. Namely her own marriage to Mon El. There was me thinking it was just the latest in a line of moments such as Tinya/ Jo and Imra/Garth dreaming of a future. But this is Shady ticking off the "precedent set" box. The two are seen talking as Wildfire hovers overhead. It's sets the couple apart in the same way as Mon-El's dream of exploring and Shady's role of champion. These are probably the most mature couple in the Legion.



Funny, I always thought he was looking down towards Salu and Intellectually Challenged Lad Duplicate Boy.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Brek is as close to fan worshipping Superboy as possible.



Out in the real world...
Bank Clerk: Right Miss...uh... Lady. We're almost done. I just need your name in triplicate here, here and here.
M'Lady of Fanfic: Triplicate?! Triplicate?! >Talokian lunge across desk followed by choke hold.<

LOL

Actually, she officially resigns in Superboy 204's "Brainiac 5's Secret Weakness."

I think it's fascinating to see what each of us reads into the relationships of the characters, but I think that says more about us than about the characters or what the writer intended.

I like thoth's idea that Shady and Mon are the most mature Legion couple, but maybe I'm reading that into it as well. But at least there is some support in the story itself: Mon, as leader, had to stay behind on monitor duty (which was very leader-like of him; he could have called in the Subs and forced them to miss the wedding!). Shady chooses to spend time with her beloved.

But since we're reading things into these scenes, I always imagined Jo was perturbed because Tinya was part of the wedding party and he had to stand there by his lonesome, arms folded and forcing a smile.

Ah! I must totally be blanking on this scene as I don't remember it at all! I guess we'll see it soon enough.