Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Persuader

I am creating Persuader for my LSH roleplaying game. I have a stumbling block with the villain which I wanted to bounce off of Legion World members in order to collect opinions and perhaps resolution to my thought.

In the comics Persuader uses his Atomic Axe which is capable of cutting through both material matter (like wood, steel, etc.) and it cuts through immaterial forces, such as gravity, the Sun Eater, dimensions, and so forth.


When he cuts through immaterial forces what limitations if any are there? What are the various types of immaterial forces we have seen him cut through and what were the effects?

How would this power translate in game terms?

When he cuts material items (such as a door, vehicle, etc. does it just get sliced in half all the time (thus destroyed) or does it go "poof" and disappears? I've seen him slice things in half, have the targets ever gone "poof, gone?"

The DC Heroes game (older version) grants his atomic axe the ability of Energy Absorption. Essentially, the axe can absorb and nullify energy it comes in contact with, such as Validus' lightning bolts for example. It then goes on to say that if the damage exceeds the axe's ability, the total damage is not absorbed and Persuader takes it all.

I don't have any difficulty translating these rules (though I don't think he would take all the damage if it exceeds his axe, just partial damage).

Here's a more serious character dilemma.

Persuader is suppose to be a highly trained combatant, especially with his axe. If he is so good at combat with the axe (which he should be) why can he NEVER hit a Legionnaire with an attack?

I realize that it would probably kill the Legionnaire and that is something the writers didn't want to happen. If I make him as deadly of a combatant as he should be...how do I translate the "He can never hit a Legionnaire with his axe"? My concern is I would have "dead" Legionnaires when he swings his axe at them in the game.

In my game you can dodge or block an attack to evade it. The dodge roll must equal or exceed the attack roll in order to avoid being struck. If I give all Legionnaires incredible dodging ability, Persuader will miss them just as he does in the comics. Problem is, so will all the other villains. If the dodge is over-inflated it disrupts the game balance. If Persuader's as good as he should be, I think that Legionnaires would be getting struck by his axe attack frequently.

If he does strike an opponent, do they go "poof" gone, destroyed because its the atomic axe or do they take normal game damage for injuries just like any other attack? Has he EVER HIT ANYONE AND IF SO, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PERSON?

I haven't seen anything in the comics that makes me think that Persuader would receive any kind of penalty when attacking Legionnaires to balance out this issue.

So....how do I make him true to the comics without having over-kill of Legionnaires or an unskilled incompetent villain?

Where's the middle ground from a game and comic point of view?

If he hits a Legionnaire, it's invariably with a glancing blow or with the hilt of the weapon. Kent Shakespeare, Shadow Lad.

This, as you mention, is to prevent a pile of dead Legionnaires.

So, perhaps there's an element of the Persuader getting the job done, but knowing that a killing blow would bring down the entire Legion/UP on him forever.

So, that means that the Persuader and the Legionnaires don't have to have their dodge rolls adjusted, which would unbalance a lot of things. But the Persuader should have a limit, to a point, about when he would sensibly use a killing blow. He's an enforcer, not a wanton murderer.

Something else else that's not seen in the comics, is the control the Persuader has over the Axe. We see him slice through a wall. But he doesn't slice through gravity at the same time. If all of the things the axe can cut through happened every time he used it, every job would be a disaster area. So, he must have some sort of ability to control the effects of the axe. This may be a mental link, or on the hilt of the weapon. But it would logically extent to cutting through neural transmissions of a target, incapacitating them.

Thothkins, thanks for responding. I see your point in regards to him being more of an enforcer rather than murderer. This is helpful because the "enforcer" part of his personality needs to be amplified in the game. I'm thinking that he doesn't do killing damage (normally) because he wants his opponent's to submit to him rather than simply slice them in half...sort of an ego trip. Seems in character with the comics...what do you think?

In regards to his mental control over his axe I gave him a symbiotic relationship with it. This enables him to summon the axe, fly with it, the actions they have revealed in the comics that he can do. I will extend his Symbiotic Relationship with the atomic axe to include his "desired effect" when slicing through material and intangible sources such as gravity or creating dimensional openings. This will give me the Cosmos Master a lot more leeway with his ability rather than it being so straight forward and it would appear to mimic the comics better than the DC version of Persuader.

Thanks for the advice and helping me get past the stumbling block.

He's a guy that knows his job. If his job is to collect an artefact for Starfinger, then that's what he does. It's theft. Having umpteen murders attached to it doesn't do his career any favours at all. I think he's very practical that way. He didn't join the Fatal Five because he was psychotic.

He clearly wants/likes the power though, usually with/ through others. So we've seen him enjoy the submission the people of Talok on a couple of occasions. Again, he didn't wantonly murder anyone, but was willing to make an example of Shadow Lad. In fact, the Five progressed a society (admittedly too quickly) so they could reap more advanced comforts of power & control. Again, no needless killing.

This is purely speculative, but it's worth pointing out that at least one version of the Persuader has a daughter who is the same age as the Legionnaires. So that might play some sort of role in explaining his reluctance to actually kill or even severely harm the Legionnaires.

You're probab;ly looking more at a game design issue (or a philosophy of game design).

I think this is where you need gamemaster's notes on granting leeway when using characters like this. RPG's can't just be all mechanics or the law of averages has your player's characters all in the morgue before one adventure is over. Rather, build some story elements into your combat against particularly deadly combatants. If Persuader hits a PC, give them a nasty wound that the characters have to think fast to deal with, or classify the damage as a glancing or hilt blow, or just straight out fudge the roll. Whatever keeps the story moving and interesting.

Not much more on Write Ups

or Eidolons

But perhaps useful for other things. Neither DC source book adds much either.

The axe has a symbiotic relationship with its wielder, explaining how Persuader controls the effects.

Thank you all for your input, as always insightful and appreciated.

Can I get some specific examples of Persuader using his axe to perform actions which are related to energy...for example, when he blocked/absorbed Validus' lightning bolt attack which sent the Fatal Five into a different dimension (Adventure Comics #353.

I've read online about him opening up dimensions, possibly time itself or other non-tangible concepts. If you can reference the series and issue please do so I can review it in my comic collection.

Here's a general issue by issue breakdown of the Persuader using his axe:-

Adventure - 352 - cuts gravity. Axe stated as being able to cut through lines of force, magnetism and gravity through nuclear emissions.

Also shown tearing through a steel wall with his hands, and resistant to laser pistol (possibly armour helped.)

Adventure -353 - slices gravity allowing him to levitate. Axe blocks Mano's hand. Super strength shown again, twisting metal machinery and pinning Mano to a wall with it.

(note Mano seems also to have superspeed (enhanced reflexes), and some acrobatic ability)

Enhanced axe can cut through the energies of a sun eater.
Teleportation seemingly triggered by Validus' mental energy striking axe. Persuader may not have been responsible for the teleportation.

Adventure -366 - Cuts the force shield around the Legion HQ. It self seals, with a possible connection to what happens to the Persuader in TMK run.

Disrupts Cosmic Boy's magnetism. Persuader is strong enough to resist having his armour magnetised.

Adventure 378 - nothing new shown in battle with Karate Kid (who beats him). Stated that the axe can cut through anything.

Superboy #198 - controls the axe when it's out of his hands. The axe turns on Superboy. Rather than cut him when it hits his head, it seems to zap him.

A thrown axe will go right through a time bubble, destroying it.
The axe will return to the persuader if he wills it.

Brianiac worries that if the axe even touches him he'll be radioactive dust. Combines original nuclear emissions with the energy zap that hit Superboy.

Persuaders' wrist band contains a computer (or a very unwieldy watch)

Superboy #219 - Hits Duplicate Boy in the back with a clean cut of the axe. Dulicate Boy was channeling Validus' strength which may have been what saved him.

(Note: Empress can teleport the others across sizable distances, with a strain on the eye)

Superboy #231 - Cuts through Shady's darkness. Holds of Ultra Boy in battle of strength/ resistance. Isn;t knocked out by Mon El either after a few attempts. Cuts of gravity to fly.

Hits Mon-El with a clean blow. Mon's invulnerability means that there's no wound, but he is unconscious.

(Note: Empress teleports again)

Superboy 246 - appears in final page.

Superboy 247 - Summons axe. It cuts through energy surrounding his cell and he uses it to cut gravity and fly away. The axes must continually be cutting gravity as he flies over distance as he did in #231.

Superboy 269 - thrown at speed across large distance, dealing Mon El a glancing blow that reders him unconscious. Persuader boasts taht a few cm closer and it would have cleaved mon-el's skull. Persuader seems to have done this deliberately as killing Mon El would nto have suited his plans. "And in any case, the Persuader is not an unnecessarily vicious man."

Superboy #270 - Stres Validus a glancing blow when Ayla makes the axe lightweight. The strike simply angers Validus. Note taht Persuader survives a decent punch from Validus, recalling his ability to hold off Ultra Boy.

Superboy - 271 - nothing shown here.

Legion - 300 nothing shown. Beaten by Karate Kid again.

Legion - 318 - cuts through Shadow Kid's darkness. Uses pommel to knock shadow kid out. Cuts through Shadow Lass' darkness. He's defeated when shadow is pushed through his helmet's eyes.

Legion - 319 - A downward swing of his axe is about to execute Shadow Kid. Mon El puts his wrist in the way. There's an explosion. It strangely doesn't incinerate Shadow Kid. Mon El feels the blow, but remains intact. The Persuader is thrown away from the bast, stunned.

Note: Persuader struggles against speed - Karate Kid and Mano. He also struggles against massive opponents with longer reaches than his axe: Validus & Colossal Boy.

For Post Zero Hour examples -
LSH 79 has him slicing Spark's electricity

Legion 17 has him slicing through Wildfire's anti-energy

Oh, and in LSH 121 he slices through an Anywhere Machine "illusion" composed of light and sound. In the same issue, Gates is able to teleport the Axe's blade just as the Persuader is about to hit him.