Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

What she actually says is: "Darling...HELP me. PLEASE! Someone!" And then, "P-Pietro!" So not much better, especially the cry for her heel brother. But, in her spot, I'd probably be a lot less controlled!

But a few pages later, she goes against Ultron and is the most effective of them all...until Cap gets in her way like a dumbass. And she has a great few lines as she confronts Ultron: "That's right, murderer! Your time has RUN OUT! Did you forget me--? Or did you presume that a WOMAN was no threat? IDIOT! I am the most DANGEROUS threat you ever faced! I'm a WITCH!" Shades of the regal Englehart Wanda there. And it looks like she would've taken him down if not for Cap's bumbling.

Also, regarding Simon, I think his costumes only go downhill after these appearances. I feel his original costume is probably his best ever, and the Perez redesign that shows up in this storyline is okay too but looks a little too like 3-D Man's. The soon-to-come red jacket look and some atrocious WCA-era costumes definitely send him on a downward spiral appearance-wise.

I do remember that scene of Wanda standing up to Ultron, and while it's undeniably well-done, it's also the exception rather than the rule during the Shooter era. I'm cynical enough about Shooter to suspect that maybe that scene was his way of trying to placate the Englehart fans. Too little, too late, Jimbo.

And regarding Cap coming off badly in that same scene, I find it interesting how badly both Cap and Iron Man come off during this era. I won't spoil anything, but Iron Man's team leadership during The Korvac Saga should be in the Avengers Hall of Shame.

Agree on Wonder Man's costumes. The leisure jacket costume may rank #1 of the all time worst Avengers outfits.

Agreed on Jocasta never quite delivering on her potential. I'll judge the sequel as it comes, but my expectations are low. (I bought and read a smattering of post-Korvac issues, I think I may have actually read the follow-up before. My collection is, I think, gap-free from just before 200-on until soetime into Hama's run.)

Actually, it could have ended with this issue and been just fine. I keep forgetting to mention, though, that the ending--with the implication that Jocasta sent the ant-message to the Avengers and the lingering shot of her body--reminded me somewhat of the ending of Shooter's "Ghost of Ferro Lad" story. They're not identical, but I can see the parallels with both stories featuring mysterious saves and a kind of supernatural explanation offered. Shooter homages Shooter?

As bad as that one was, I think the green outfit with the jetpack that Milgrom mad for him in WCA may have been even worse! And the less said about his mullet, the better......

Avengers Epic Collection: The Final Threat (collects Avengers 150-166, Avengers Annual 6-7, Super-Villain Team-Up 9 & Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2)

Conclusion: Avengers 163-166, Avengers Annual 7 & Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2

Things definitely take a downward turn at the end of this collection, so much so that this review will be comparatively brief.

In a word Avengers 163-166 are "meh" at best. 163 features the return of George Tuska doing his usual forgettable job filling in as a guest artist. He does nothing to elevate a very inconsequential story guest-starring Hercules, Black Widow and Ice Man of the Champions. The villain Typhon is uninteresting and the conflict between Herc and Iron Man, which is orchestrated by Typhon, overwrought. I suppose it was interesting to see the armored Avenger go so long against a powerhouse like Herc, but it's hard not to feel that a guest appearance by two former Avengers could have been a lot more.

My feeling for the following three-parter in 164-166 is admittedly influenced by this being a post-X-Men 94-95 appearance by Count Nefaria. I let it be known in my reviews of those X-Men issues in the re-read thread that Nefaria's survival from the X-Men story really belittles Thunderbird's sacrifice in those issues. And nothing about this story changes my mind. It's basically a 3-issue extended slugfest that's very thin on story. It could have easily been told in one issue, so I suppose you could say this was an early example of modern decompression before it was all the rage.

Really, there's not any interesting minutia to comment about in this story. It just is what it is. I mean, it's interesting somewhat to see Erik Josten involved in the first part as he appears with Living Laser and Whirlwind as pawns in Nefaria's scheme. This was after he lost the Power Man name to Luke Cage and before he adopted the Smuggler or Goliath identities....and of course long before he would be Atlas of the Thunderbolts. Seems they missed an opportunity to match him up with Simon and compare them as basically having the same power source. Shooter kind of dances around it, but that's all.

John Byrne draws the 3-parter, so it had that going for it at least. Byrne is as natural a fit for the Avengers as Perez is and does a creditable job with what little story he's given. As with Perez, it will be good to see Byrne swoop in for some issues here and there during the remainder of this project. Byrne will always be a favorite of mine, and Marcos does an excellent job on his pencils.

The collection ends with Jim Starlin's original end to his Warlock and Thanos epic in the Avengers Annual and Marvel Two-In-One Annual. While I was looking forward to reading this, it was apparent that the Avengers (and Spidey and the Thing) were merely guest stars in what was really Adam Warlock's and Thanos' story. Oh, they all had their moments and added some grandeur and scope to the proceedings, but with the warlock book cancelled, Starlin was forced to end his larger story in other characters' books.

What's more, read in this manner, you can see Starlin's big story was truncated. I mean, Adam Warlock is killed off very suddenly with a big blast from Thanos, and Thanos is killed (petrified, I guess?) in a moment that doesn't really make any sense. Basically, Adam emerges from his resting place in the soul gem and zaps Thanos with very little build-up and no real explanation.

Plus, it's hard to feel the gravity of it all reprinted as it is in this collection. You really need to have been reading Adam and Thanos's story to get the full effect. You lose Gamora and Pip and then Adam without knowing anything about them. Even if you were following all along, I still feel it was truncated and probably a bit unsatisfying for those who had been following the saga. Plus, Starlin's art here is good, but it is certainly a lot more rushed and less dynamic and detailed than when I last saw it on the earlier Avengers/Captain Marvel crossover.

Still Starlin showing us glimpses of Warlock's "afterlife" in the soul gem was pretty affecting. And moments of the space battle with the Avengers had some pleasant echoes of that great Neal Adams battle in Kree/Skrull War. And Mar-Vell has a haunting line that sticks with me as he reflects on Adam's death: "I only pray that when my time is at hand, I'll be able to pass as honorably as he." Pretty haunting considering what lies ahead for him--also considering that Warlock, Pip, Gamora and Thanos will all eventually return while Mar-Vell's "time" still, as yet, stands.

So endeth this massive trade paperback. It had its moments, but it was certainly on the disappointing side. We'll soon see what Michael Korvac has to say on the matter.....

I hardly remember anything about the Nefaria three-parter. My copies of those issues got waterlogged way back in the late 90s, and it hasn't been reprinted as extensively as the Shooter/Perez stories.

I agree with Lardy that, in the context of Thunderbird's sacrifice in X-Men, Nefaria's survival seems like a cheat, and that nothing about this story changes that. I'll only add two things:

One, I do remember the ending, with Nefaria being conked on the head by a falling super-heavy Vision, and I think it is incredibly stupid, and it may have inspired the equally stupid death-by-falling-Stone-Boy of Pulsar Stargrave in the infamous Legion of Substitute Heroes Special.

Two, Shooter should have saved that Wanda-being-awesome scene from the Ultron story for the Nefaria story, because if Shooter was going to turn Nefaria into an evil Superman analog, it would have made sense to give him Superman's vulnerability to magic. That would have been a much better ending.

And while I have always loved Avengers Annual #7, I think Lardy has certainly stated some valid challenges to the prevailing consensus on that story and on the Warlock/Thanos saga overall. I'll have to re-read the whole thing and then post about it.

Was this the story in which Nefaria somehow steals power from the Living Laser (who doesn't have any powers, just some implanted laser weaponry...), the Whirlwind (who is a mutant who can spin really fast) and Power Man (who has Giant-Man/Wonder Man combined Ionic/Pym Particle powers) and becomes Superman, able to fly, etc. seemingly for the sole purpose of looking like Superman?

So bizarre. It's like 'if I mix an egg, some blue cheese and this turnip, I'll create a taco!'

If I was gonna make a Marvel villain intended to operate like Superman, I'd steal the Alpha Stone from Basilisk (super hot eyebeams!) and the Moonstone from Moonstone (super-strength, flight, invulnerability).

Power Man, Whirlwind and Living Laser? You'd get a giant spinning fool who can't fire lasers. Silly!

Yes, Set, that's the story.

Byrne seemed to really want to write and draw Superman, between his uses of Nefaria, and his use of Gladiator in his X-Men and Fantastic Four runs.

And then he got to write & draw the real thing!

I believe the only Nefaria appearance between this one and the death of Thunderbird is in Iron Man, which shows him in a wheelchair with burns all over his body (and may explain how he survived, I forget). That is the first Michelinnie / Layton story and great art aside, one of their weakest. (It also breaks up Tony and Madame Masque for what feels like a very thin reason).

Getting to the point, I also agree with Lardy about Nefaria's non-death, though I do like the character quite a lot. Additionally, I agree this was a kind of pointless slugfest that felt like Byrne had no guidance on what to do other than "have them fight".

The Avengers Annual of the Starlin Saga was always fun for me but I've never read the rest of the story so unfortunately have never felt the full effects. I know Pov and Lightning Lad are big fans and have told me to check it out over the years.

IIRC, this story doesn't reference the Iron Man appearance you mention. I'm pretty sure this one says Nefaria teleported out before the plane exploded, so it might actually contradict the Iron Man story.

One thing that was kinda nice in this Nefaria story was Wanda and Beast expressing mutant outrage and solidarity toward Nefaria regarding Thunderbird's death. It was quick and dropped quickly, and I wish it was explored more.

I'd say that Whitney is was and always has and will be a better character than her old man.



I honestly didn't get the "evil Superman" vibe off Nefaria, but now I can totally see it. Right down to that new costume Byrne gave him.

I should mention that Nefaria's scientists gave the Laser Whirlwind and Josten significant power-ups in the first part, right before Nefaria, I guess, stole those powers. (The whole thing wasn't explained very well. )

I own and read some reprints of the pivotal Starlin Mar-Vell stories and the "Death of..." GN, but I've read almost none of the pivotal first Warlock saga other than these two annuals. So reading them is like seeing the last 30 minutes or less of a movie without any of the context of the rest of it.

The Iron Man story happened after the Avengers story, not before.

I didn't mind that so much. It was comic-booky but mostly in a good way, I thought. I guess my problem was more along the lines of wondering how accurate Vizh's aim would be from that height or depending on Nefaria not moving much during the process. I guess the easy answer is "computer mind calculations".



So his injuries would've been from this battle? He didn't seem that much the worse for wear in the aftermath. Maybe it was the Iron man team that ignored the Shooter story, rather than the reverse?

I seem to recall that in the Iron Man story, he had some kind of delayed negative reaction to the super-powering process that left him physically old and frail.

Really? Bah! Then the Avengers story makes even less sense! Wherever he was at that moment, Roy Thomas must have vomited and had diarrhea at the same time.

(It's widely accepted that whenever continuity is unexplained, Roy Thomas gets diarrhea).

LOL

Actually, I think Roy Thomas no longer cared about Marvel continuity by that time, and Mark Gruenwald had picked up the mantle of Marvel Continuity Cop.

I've finally gotten to almost finishing up my Avengers project after getting side-tracked from it for a couple of months. I actually completed the Korvac trade just before I went on vacation in late June. Obviously, I was a little too much in vacation mode to do an extensive write-up just before going. And THEN, I took some JLA/JSA crossover trades with me on the trip itself. This lead to me reading consecutively ten JSA-related trades (which I spoke about extensively in another thread) over the next month, then a Firestorm trade and finally a coupla weeks exclusively reading from my woefully backed up "new" comics pile.

So, long story short (?), I've read the next 2 Avengers trades in the sequence and only have one to go. You will find my reviews of these more concise than the others, partly because "Korvac" is a bit less fresh in the memory than the others were and "Nights of Wundagore" is probably the shortest of them all so far, except for possibly "The Coming of the Beast".

So we'll begin with......

Avengers: The Korvac Saga TPB (collects Thor Annual #6 & Avengers 167-168, 170-177)

First of all, "Korvac Saga" seems a bit of a misnomer as Korvac is primarily a background threat until the last three issues collected within. Sure, he gets at least a few pages each issue and figures in to the main plot increasingly, but, I dunno, as a "saga" is concerned, excursions with Ultron, the Atlantean Tyrak and the Collector in the middle part seem distracting. (Yes, it turns out the Collector has a connection to Korvac, but I digress....)

Not that this was a bad story or idea, by any means, but it's kind of disappointing to see any direct confrontation with him be reserved for the very last part. Plus, all of the effort to conceal his identity feels like a lot of plate-spinning. And in a way, all that extra time makes Michael/Korvac no less enigmatic, which in turn lessens the emotional punch that the conclusion should have.

I think part of the problem is that George Perez (who gets a co-writing credit in the trade) drops out after four issues and Jim Shooter steps back from full writing chores (presumanly because he ascends to ed-in-chief just then) to only plot 173-176, leaving Bill Mantlo and David Michelinie to script. Something else else had to have gotten lost in the translation because the thru-line of the story does suffer. I've a feeling the story wasn't supposed to go as long as it did, perhaps strung along further until Shooter could finish it properly. Hard to say for sure.

Unlike some editions of collections of this story, this trade includes the Thor Annual which provided Korvac's immediate previous appearance and gives the story more of a context. Even with the flashbacks built into the Avengers issues, I can't imagine the Saga itself having much of an impact if readers had never read the annual. With the annual, at least, you get to see the villain in full menacing (if stereotypically so) mode. You also see more of how the Guardians of the Galaxy belong in the saga itself.

But still, Korvac receives a power-up between the annual and the Avengers issues that is explained in flashback at some point to make him into the threat he becomes for the story's purpose. It's a cheat that doesn't satisfy me very much. It screams of Shooter wanting to have an ultra-powerful villain with built-in some history/cache who he can ultimately dispose of for an epic tragedy. Ultimately, I think the flaws show in the finished product as some of the shortcuts make the ending feel unearned to some extent. It probably would have benefited greatly from a much slower burn over a series of separate incidents like Phoenix's story did--or even Norman Osborn's from the time he debuted until his death in Amazing Spider-Man 122. Of course, that's very difficult to pull off as well with creative changes on books being very uncertain, but in any case it felt like it needed more development and more of a progression that the distractions of the Ultron story and the rest took away from the overall narrative.

That said, the finale in 177 which featured the full-on clash between the Avengers and Korvac probably not only singlehandedly rescued the storyline from complete failure but also made the "saga" worthy of collection by itself. It truly was an epic throwdown, the likes of which I don't believe had been seen in quite that manner since the Avengers were formed. It's jam packed with a high-stakes confrontation that has so much happen in what was just a normal-sized issue. It was rare at the time to see the Avengers fight a single foe (one, then another). I was actually pretty impressed!

The flaw was, again, that the tragic ending didn't feel as tragic as it could've been because of all I said above. Oh, it tried and damn near succeeded almost entirely on the strength of that single, silent panel of the fallen couple almost, but not quite touching hands. It reminded me of a similar scene in one of my favorite TV shows Lost. But in the latter scene, the impact is delivered 100%--not so in the Korvac scene. Yeah, I know--this was a comic written for kids, but I've seen plenty of its contemporaries deliver better on the emotion.

(On a tangent, I wonder where Shooter got the idea for that panel? Was this an established trope somewhere, or was Shooter more or less the first? It made me think of "Romeo and Juliet", but I think Juliet collapsed on his body, iirc.)

Part of what I mean in the development being lacking is how Michael and Carina's love never makes a lot of sense. I'm sure Fickles will chime in on this as it shows Shooter's apparent misogynistic bent. I mean, that scene where the two of them meet is pretty high on the creep factor. It certainly looks like he's controlling her. Later, it's explained that Carina was after him to take Michael down on her father's (The Collector) behalf and falls for him in the process. There are a number of ways to read into this, but it's subtext, intended or not. In the end you're left with that creep factor and asked to accept it. Again, it could have benefited from more development, if indeed it could be redeemed.

In Shooter's defense he is walking a well-trodden path. Comics, film, TV, etc. are littered with tales of girls falling for megalomaniacs, so it's hardly a Shooter invention. But that doesn't make it something that should be lauded either. So, yeah, it irks me and kind of poisons the stew.

In between all of this, the subplot is worked in of the government taking in a more direct hand with the Avengers. The results are mixed, but I think it was an overall good idea. It gave us Henry Peter Gyrich, who is one of those non-powered, non-villainous antagonists that readers love to hate. It definitely gives story fodder that echoes all the way into Roger Stern's run years later. Plus, it leads to the absurdly comical bus ride the Avengers have to take to their final battle with Korvac.

The art is very good throughout, thanks in no small part to our hero Marcos Martin, who's run as Avengers inker comes to a close with this storyline. Presented as Exhibit A is the artwork of David Wenzel who closes out the story's final four chapters. Though I've never heard of Wenzel, I'm convinced that it's Martin who makes his stuff look almost a ringer for Perez's. Though Perez's issues are definitely superior, it's a tribute to Martin that there's some consistency to the latter six issues (including 2 between George and Dave by our old pal Sal Buscema). The coloring on Korvac when he's powered up is interesting but maybe shows some of the limitations of the time.

So, yeah, not a sucky story, but also not the classic it's cracked up to be. If it weren't for that really all-out ending, it would have been pretty much a disaster. Certainly, any of Steve Englehart's trio of classic epics show how they're REALLY done!



(Will hold off on reviewing the next trade after we've discussed this one....)

Lardy did a good job of summing up most of the things I find wrong with the so-called Korvac Saga, but I beg to differ on the climax -- I don't think it redeemed the story at all. I still vividly remember my reaction upon first read: ten issues of waiting endlessly, and we get the Avengers (and sundry guests) barging in on Korvac with no battle plan whatsoever (good going, Iron Man) and then trying to dog-pile on him???? No wonder...



And the whole thing at the end with Moondragon going, "Boo hoo hoo, he was the real hero and we were the real villains" just made me roll my eyes. Korvac was a sociopathic monster, for chrissakes! Shooter's attempt at ambiguity fails UTTERLY, in my opinion.

As for the misogyny, it's certainly there not only in the aspects that Lardy already mentioned, but also in the way Shooter writes Moondragon (and it would get even worse -- during Shooter's second Avengers run, he actually had her rape Thor.)

Gyrich is not a villain I love to hate -- he's a villain I HATE to hate. I wish he'd never been created. I could care less about the Avengers' interactions with the government, that's not what I read Avengers for (that said, Roger Stern actually got some interesting stuff out of the Avengers' more businesslike -- and more realistic -- interactions with Gyrich's successor, Raymond Sikorsky. Unfortunately, when John Byrne took over the Avengers books, he took Sikorsky down an irredeemable path by having him be in on the goverment's abduction and destruction of the Vision. A shameful waste of a character with real potential.)

I've said this before in sundry Legion-related threads, but I think it bears repeating here: I truly believe that if one compares The Korvac Saga with the DnA/Coipel Legion Lost, you can see all the things that Shooter got wrong and all the things that DnA got right with basically the same premise.

I think the so-called Korvac Saga fails on every single level. I don't even think Perez could have saved it if he'd seen the whole story through to the end. Sure, it's nice to look at (and, Lardy, the inker wasn't Marcos Martin, it was Pablo Marcos -- no big deal, it's an easy mistake to make), but I find the effect similar to serving one of those cheap little McDonalds cheeseburgers on a silver platter.

I give that a pass because it was (and still is) a pretty common super-team "tactic" in comic books when presented with any kind of threat. More clumsy to me was the sheer luck of the victory. I mean, it all depends on Carina being conflicted about what Michael was doing leading to his death and her subsequent own death wish... (Man, this isn't defending the story any better! )

But if you want to blame Tony Stark....well, he was on the sauce at the time and building toward "Demon in a Bottle"...



I take Moondragon with a grain of salt here. After all, her judgement before and after has always been pretty terrible! I'd have been more upset if a more upstanding character like Janet or Wanda had expressed sorrow for that reason.

As for her raping Thor, I don't recall that, but you've certainly piqued my (moral) curiosity.



I'll disagree on Gyrich. While I don't claim he's a great character, I often find it interesting when superheroes face antagonists who are not villains. Gyrich particularly represents the government and all those aspects that we don't like about it, such as all the red tape. And Claremont would go on to use him effectively over on X-Men.



Element Lad fans might disagree with ya....



So how do you REALLY feel?



Ooops, my bad!

Honestly, it's not even in the conversation among the great storyline finales, but I give it points for being pretty taut and dramatic and certainly unlike anything else I've read during this long Avengers read project.

Regarding Moondragon, she had a spotlight story in Avengers #219-220 where she mentally enslaved a whole planet, and then did the same to Thor. It's implied in a very unsubtle way that she forced him to have sex with her. I used to hate Moondragon before I realized all the things she did that I hated her for were when Shooter was writing her.

Regarding Element Lad, I can see where fans of his would be offended, and as a fan of the Preboot Jan, I can't really say whether or not I would have been offended if it had been "my" Jan who turned villainous. But even with that caveat, I still think that when DnA's story is analyzed objectively, it's a superb exercise in writing technique.

I dunno...it seems ol' Heather's always been on the unlikable side, but much of that may come from Shooter. Can't say Englehart's version was terribly likable, though. But it's nice to have characters with different, off-putting personalities to spice things up, like your Quicksilvers, Namors and even your Mantises (to some degree).

Thor-rape is going way too far, though.

As for Jan in LLost, it didn't bother me very much because I was able to separate this version from the preboot version. Others didn't see it that way and took it very hard, such as prominent LMB poster Mystery Lad.



I'm hoping Cobie will chime in on Korvac soon. If I was reading his comments correctly, he may have a more positive view of those issues than either of us do.