Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

Swordsman and Yellowjacket (Rita) are shown rescuing all the unconscious living Avengers from the forces of the afterlife come to prematurely claim them, and at the end, he asks how she feels, and she says she feels like she's finally alive.

But it's not really made explicit that they *are* alive, or if she just feels like, after things went wrong in life for her (and him, for that matter), that she's finally gotten to 'live the life' of an Avenger, in this posthumous event.

Some other dead folk did return in the event, such as Alpha Flight, IIRC, so it's entirely open for Swordsman and Yellowjacket to return, if someone wants to use them, but it doesn't seem that anyone was clamoring to do so, so their status remains kind of Schrodinger-y, until that box gets opened up and it gets stated one way or the other.

In a way, that makes it a kind of clever way to end things. If some future writer wants to use them, they can be alive. If nobody does, they can remain in the off-screen 'aren't they dead?' pile, without being explicitly dead and 'off-limits.'

Avengers: The Coming of the Beast (collects Avengers 137-140 & 145-146)

So with my having overtaken the existing Masterworks collections with Volume 13, the task of collecting the remainder of Englehart's run and beyond was a little interesting, but basically the whole run thru 196 exists thru various trades and hardcovers. Only a handful of issues are left out among all of these formats.

Of all of these trades/hardcovers, the only one currently out of print is this one: The Coming of the Beast. Bridging the classic Englehart storylines "Celestial Madonna" and "Serpent Crown", these are incomparison pretty forgettable issues. I mean, they are certainly significant in their own way, primarily because they introduce the Beast to the line-up, a character who would be a stalwart Avenger pretty consistently into the early 200s. In fact, in my mind Hank McCoy made a much better Avenger than he ever did an X-Man even considering his founder status. It was a brilliant idea to transfer the character from X-Men limbo to the Avengers, following a short solo stint in Amazing Adventures. Given that Englehart wrote those solo stories and in effect cut his professional teeth writing them, it was a natural for Englehart to bring Hank over to his Avengers gig. Unfortunately, the story arc that brings Hank on is pretty much a stinker.

It starts off promisingly enough as the Avengers realize with their ranks depleted after Black Panther's departure, Swordsman's death, Mantis's ascension, cap on extended leave and the Vision & Wanda off honeymooning that it's clearly time to add some Avengers. My favorite part of the whole story is when they check in on past Avengers and get a series of "no" answers as far as returning to active duty before finally getting Wasp and Yellowjacket to come out of retirement, Moondragon expressing interest in joining fresh from her involvement in Mantis's story and Beast showing up for their recruitment announcement at Yankee stadium.

Certainly, one of my favorite recurring Avengers stories is their various stories featuring their latest line-up changes. This is the very first one of these stories in my current Avengers reading project, dating back to issue 89. It was a huge thrill to finally see one of these pop up, and I was particularly looking forward to finally seeing the Beast show up at long last. And as a recruitment issue, it doesn't disappoint.

But as a story, 137-138 pretty much go off the rails once the threat is introduced. I won't spoil the twist here, on the off-chance someone reads this the first time, but it's not a good one. Suffice to say that cosmic villain the Stranger appears to be behind their latest peril, but the actual villain is less than awe-inspiring and pretty much totally out-of-character from my experience. And the fact that the Wasp is left near-death for the encounter didn't sit well with me.

From there, the next issue doesn't get a lot better. Whirlwind, a character who works best as part of a villain group if at all, returns to menace Hank and Jan Pym, his being a recurring enemy of theirs going back to their old headlining features. He comes off particularly unsavory as he's basically trying to off Janet, who is already near-death and hospitalized. And then there's Hank Pym himself, who comes off ready for a nervous breakdown throughout. Given the circumstances of Jan's peril and the size-changing illness he's dealing with, you can see why Englehart took that route with him. But it has uncomfortable echoes of where the character will eventually go in that guise. You can either look at it as foreshadowing that future writers would build on or as something they would twist and turn to their own ends. Either way, it's grating and uncomfortable. And it doesn't help that Whirlwind comes off as a foe that could give the Avengers trouble by himself when you know they could wipe the floor with him, even depleted as they are.

140 is a decent enough finish as it resolves both Jan's and Hank's perils without feeling the need to inject another lame villain. It's basically the Avengers working together to save their own. The Beast shines particularly in his role as scientist, saving the day with some invaluable help from the returned Vision and Scarlet Witch. It's a little corny, but just as Hank Pym is saved from his size-changing ailment, Jan emerges miraculously from her coma. Cue the happy ending.

One thing I did like consistently about the story were the cuts to Vizh and Wanda's honeymoon. I liked the not-so-subtly references to this being quite an amorous vacation for them, and it was cool seeing Vision without his costume in his red glory. I don't know if this was the first time he was ever seen out of costume in this manner, but it was really cool.

The art on the arc was by George Tuska, a name known to Legion fans. There are moments when Tuska's work looks really good (I particularly like his Moondragon), but mostly it's unremarkable. I'd say that summarizes how Legion fans feel about him, actually.

The collection ends by printing a story that originally appeared as a fill-in in issues 145 & 146 right in the middle of the Serpent Crown storyline. Presumably, it was included to fill out the page count and because it wouldn't fit in another collection. It's actually not a terrible story (in some ways better than the four issues I just reviewed), and it features better artwork from Don Heck compared to his maligned efforts in GSA 4 and his inks on various other recent issues. It definitely suffers from inclusion in this collection, however, because it features another hospitalized Avenger, this time Cap, hovering near death's door.

Ultimately, though, it's a fill-in and as such, has no importance beyond it's own self-contained story. Plus, the line-up is presented in such a way that a No-Prize was offered on 146's title page for a reader who could explain when the story took place. That's because it doesn't fit anywhere! Plus, there's a twist on the last page that feels pretty unearned and added unneeded pathos. Can't say Tony Isabella, who wrote this 2-parter, has ever been a particular favorite, though, so my expectations were low.

Overall, certainly not essential must-read Avengers fare but not without some historical and entertainment value. Honestly, with a title called "The Coming of the Beast", I don't see why Marvel didn't just go ahead and include issue 136, which was itself a reprint of the story of the Beast's furry mutation from Amazing Adventures, to set the stage for the Beast joining right after. Still, I'm glad to have read them for the sake of completion and because I love line-up change issues of the Avengers!

Yeah, these four issues are easily the low point of Englehart's run. It's as though he wasn't quite sure where he was going post-Celestial Madonna. But then Perez arrives, and a certain redhead takes center stage, and all is well for the remainder of Englehart's run.



Well said. I'm firmly in the "twist and turn to their own ends" camp, but then I don't like most of the stories that came in between Englehart's departure and Roger Stern's arrival. Who knows where Englehart might have gone with that? Maybe something akin to what he did with Hank in WCA, hitting emotional rock bottom and then getting back on his feet.



I certainly feel that way about Tuska. I'm sure he did some good work in the Golden Age, but by the Silver Age and beyond he had pretty much become a hack in my opinion. Also, Tuska did not come off well at all in Sean Howe's history of Marvel; Englehart said that when they were working on Power Man together, Tuska would consistently take artistic shortcuts, and he also tricked Englehart into sneaking a racist slur into the dialogue. And it doesn't help that Tuska is inked on these issues by Vince Colletta, the laziest inker of his generation.

Avengers: The Serpent Crown (collects Avengers 141-144 & 147-149)

So Steve Englehart's run comes essentially to an end (though he gets a co-writer or plot credit on the next three issues) with what is the last of his great trilogy of Avengers epics, the first two being Avengers/Defenders War and the Celestial Madonna Saga. It's a great way to go out as, once again, Steve proves himself one of the best writers of multi-issue epics that Marvel had ever seen to that point and one that still holds up among those published in the decades since.

I will say, however, that as good as Serpent Crown is, I would, without hesitation, rank it a distant third in comparison to the other two, at least for me personally. I'd say it's less thrilling, has less depth of story and arguably less character development and fewer consequences than the other two. I'm sure some would disagree with me and that my opinion is colored by certain personal biases, which this review will bear out. I don't mean to say that Serpent Crown wasn't terrific, mind you, just that I prefer the other two, so I hope no one takes this as a bashing.

We start off with a split story, one following up on the dangling Hawkeye time travel myster and the other bringing the Avengers into conflict with the Brand Corporation with plot threads that originated in Steve's runs on Cap's solo book and Beast's Amazing Adventures stories. Moondragon and Thor use Doc Doom's time machine and run into Kang and end up in the old west where Hawkeye has met up with some of Marvel's western heroes and are trying to stop Kang from taking over Earth a century before the Avengers exist. Meanwhile, the other Avengers attack Brand, come into conflict with the Squadron Supreme and and end up being transported to the Squadron's Earth, basically so the Brand guys can get them out of their hair.

I've long had a fascination for the western adventure because of a couple of later stories that revisit it. One was Steve's own sequel time travel story he did in West Coast Avengers over a decade later and the controversial work he did with the Phantom Rider there. The other was Avengers Forever, which in a major part of its storyline revisits the same old west adventure from these Avengers issues from a different angle. But this is the first time I've ever read the original adventure itself, so that was a particular thrill for me. Ironically, I didn't know exactly where this adventure appeared before I finally got to it. I'd always assumed it was from the Roy Thomas era for some reason.

Some of that storyline was kind of goofy--like the mutated coyote--but there was just a real thrill to see some of the Avengers and Kang in the setting and the opportunity for them to work with all the western characters--and ride horses! Obviously, Hawkeye is a fave, so a story like this that gives him a centerpiece spotlight is always a treat. Unfortunately, though, he gets written out of the book yet again at the conclusion, so it's bittersweet. I am curious, though, about those adventures Hawkeye and the Two-Gun Kid had together, assuming they actually were published.

Something else else I didn't expect in that part of the story is that Steve writes an apparent conclusion to his Kang/Rama-Tut/Immortus epic in such a way that it seems he intended to write the characters out and end their stories right there and then. Kang is shown to apparently accidentally destroy himself, and it is shown that his future selves are destroyed as well. I obviously knew reading this that future writers would somehow undo this (probably saying it was either a trick engineered by Immortus or Kang), but I certainly expected something more inconclusive. I wonder if Steve knew yet that he would be departing soon and wanted to tie a bow on a villain he'd done so much with before departing or if this was something he'd planned all along. In either case I think Steve intended this as Kang's last hurrah. Hard to say for sure. I'd say it was both fitting and disappointing if true. Fitting because Kang rarely seemed better than when written by Englehart. Disappointing because I'd rather it had been an all-out battle with all of the Avengers present if this was truly the end. In any case future Kang stories would be a mixture of the sublime and the ridiculous, so you could argue either way whether the story should have ended there.

So the western adventure ends in 143 while the titular Serpent Crown story runs concurrently and into the remaining parts. Actually, not much happens with that until the last three parts. Before that, the Avengers fight a series of battles and kind of get their butts kicked repeatedly. The main development in those issues is the re-introduction of former romance comics star Patsy Walker into the superhero world as Hellcat. Englehart used her in the Beast's solo adventures and uses that connection to have her basically brow-beat Hank into getting her involved. I was certainly looking forward to her intro, and her pluckiness and determination to make a difference were enjoyable. Realistically, though, Steve doesn't have her immediately excel at the job. It would have been too much of a stretch if she did with no training, even if she did have a costume that gave her extra abilities. I love the character's look, though, and look forward to seeing more of her in the Defenders.

So that part of the story really ramps up as the Avengers are transported to "other-earth", home of the Squadron Supreme. And, in probably my favorite bit of subtext in Steve's story here, the Serpent Crown has been used to unite the heads of this America's corporations to take control of the country from the American people. Do I need to spell out the brilliance of the subtext there? Great stuff there, Steve!

The pacing's a little awkward, though. After an initial battle with the Squadron and the army, the Avengers just basically wander the streets a while and are out in the open and sitting ducks for attack. But there are some good moments, such as when Wanda's love for Vision helps her overcome the Crown's influence. And the conclusion on other-Earth where Beast shows the Squadron they must rise against the Crown to basically fight for America is well-done, especially as it leaves the world in the hands of their own heroes.

Finally, we conclude with the Avengers returning to their own world and taking the fight back to the Brand Corporation. They fall quickly, but Thor and Moondragon return from the past just in time to make a difference. Well, Moondragon does very little but Thor has a kick-ass battle against Brand's champion (the admittedly goofy) Orka in which he just unleashes the Thunder and has one of his better moments in the run. Hellcat also finally gets a moment as she escapes capture and gets to take out her creepy ex-husband Buzz. It ends with a new line-up around the corner and ample clues that Thor won't be among it.

Again, overall, a great story, but one, I think, that has more flaws than the other epics I named. One thing I noticed is that the Serpent Crown is somewhat ill-defined and underwhelming as a threat as depicted here. It seems the main powers it has are the ability to unite minds across dimensions and a severely corrupting influence. On one hand, it's nice that it isn't like other ultimate power Maguffins like the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, etc., but it even seems incredibly easy to remove from its bearer (something that continues in its next use).

There's also pacing issues and a kind of unevenness. I think that if you're going to have a major co-plot like the western thing with Kang, then maybe both should be equal thru the whole thing or intertwine somehow? To me, the Kang thing is the major plot in the first half, while the Brand thing kind of treads water and is extended and later takes off when the other is ended. I dunno, I guess each deserved its own top billing and could have been better served happening consecutively, rather than concurrently.

I'll also admit something else: I really missed Mantis! While I respect and commend how Steve concluded her story, it certainly felt like she left a vacuum in the dynamic that no one else stepped up to feel. She is a great, great character, and the other two epics were greatly elevated by her presence. I know it's somewhat unfair, but it's how I feel--I can't help it!!!

And obviously, this storyline is significant and enhanced by the arrival of George Perez on pencils. He will be the major artist on Avengers for the next few years, though obviously with quite a few absences and fill-ins. He's in his "proto-Perez" stage here, where he's really good but hasn't quite found his signature style yet--one that I feel fully arrives on New Teen Titans run. But he's solid throughout and enhances Steve's story to such a degree that it wouldn't have been as good with another artists. Here, he's almost more like Rich Buckler at this point in his style, but there are many glimpses of what he would become someday. And he really excels at and nails these Avengers characters. His Wanda is one of the very best ever, followed closely by his Vision and what he does with the Beast. And that last battle with Kang was especially impressive.

The Avengers will be very lucky to have George's influence for a good while to come, though we are sadly saying goodbye to Steve here as sole writer until his triumphant return on WCA in a decade or so. Steve is on the shortlist of great Avengers writers, and it's been a pleasure to read his great run for the very first time.

Lardy, I agree with most of your criticisms of The Serpent Crown Saga...but I still love it.

The one thing I disagree with is that no one filled the vacuum left by Mantis. I think Hellcat did just that, and then some.

To digress for a bit, the Hellcat as portrayed in this particular arc is very special to me. The origin that Englehart gave her was absolutely perfect, making her the ultimate girl-next-door superheroine, as relatable to fangirls and Spider-Man is to fanboys, and that's why I think the retcons to her origin by the Defenders writers are unforgivable.

And for all its flaws, I think the Serpent Crown Saga stays afloat thanks to Englehart's great character bits and great wit. As someone who loves both the Marvel and DC Universes almost equally, I love the Easter Eggs like "Lois Lane and Lana Lang" sunbathing on the roof of a building, or Whizzer saying, "G.A. always overreacts. That's his trademark." (Ironically enough, Englehart immediately followed this story with a year-long run on JLA.) There's also the banter between Thor and Moondragon, which some time ago finally made me come around to liking Moondragon (I realized that all the things Moondragon had done to make me hate her were in stories written by Jim Shooter.) In a nutshell, Englehart's Thor is a MAJOR BADASS, and in an ideal world, he'd have left the Avengers for good...

...except at this point Englehart left Avengers, and his eventual successor, Shooter, kept dragging Thor back into the Avengers because the villains he used were always too powerful for the Avengers to handle without Thor.

And that's not the only problem I have with Shooter's Avengers run (and the nominal David Michelinie run which followed.) Englehart wrote stories which appealed to kids and sophisticates, women and men. Whereas Shooter and company aimed squarely for an audience of 10-to-13 year old boys. The effect is like having one's favorite gourmet eatery torn down and replaced by a McDonalds.

As for most of these stories being drawn by the great George Perez and John Byrne, well, I think people should ask themselves, would Shooter and companies' stories be so fondly remembered if they'd been drawn by George Tuska and Don Heck? To use another food metaphor, having Perez & Byrne draw those stories is like serving fast food on a fancy platter.

I look forward to finding out what you think of issues 150-196, Lardy. I have a feeling there are some very lively discussions ahead.

Again, I still enjoyed it and liked it a whole lot despite the criticisms, just not as much as the other two epics. How would you rank it among the trilogy of Avengers epics that Englehart wrote?



It's not that I didn't enjoy Patsy, but Steve had a lot more time to work with Mantis than he did her. As it was, we barely got to get a feel for her before she was gone. So it's very difficult for me to compare her to Mantis and that character's impact with Patsy's on the Avengers book itself. Had Steve and Patsy remained, I'm sure I would feel differently. As it is, I have to follow her over to the Defenders to see more of her career.




It's hard for me to imagine the Avengers with any of its Big Three completely out of the picture for the duration, so I don't think I'd ever root for Thor to stay out of the book. He certainly had some iconic moments during Stern's run when Stern used him, and Buscema's rendering of the character in that later run was some of the best ever.

And, yeah, there were some nice character bits and Easter eggs. I loved, for example, how Moondragon rubbed Tony the wrong way! It's clear that, had Englehart stayed, Patsy and Moondragon probably would have as well.



I've already read a good chunk of Conway's run. So far, it's decent and certainly not hurt at all by Perez. I'll probably run down Conway's run as a whole or in two chunks. We'll see about Shooter and Michelinie.....

Good point about Stern's use of Thor and Big John's renderings of during that same time.

I personally don't have a problem with the Big Three missing from the book. When I started reading it in the middle of the Harras/Epting era, Thor was MIA, Iron Man was in WCA, and Cap was off soul-searching. When Cap came back several issues after I started reading, it felt to me like a cop-out; Harras didn't seem to have any great love of Cap, and I now suspect there was pressure on him to have at least one of the Big Three in his roster. The Avengers is, to me, kind of like Legion World, it doesn't matter who's present as long as the spirit feels right.

Oh, and I'd rank The Serpent Crown Saga second, with Celestial Madonna first and Avengers/Defenders War third. All very close, though.

Avengers Epic Collection: The Final Threat*** (collects Avengers 150-166, Avengers Annual 6-7, Super-Villain Team-Up 9 & Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2)

Review Part One: Avengers 150-153 & Annual 6

So this massive tome begins with what amounts to about the first half of the brief Gerry Conway era with him as Avengers writer. Apparently, Gerry used his newfound appointment as Marvel's editor-in-chief to force Steve Englehart off the Avengers so that he himself could write it. Gerry's run as Avengers writer would turn out to be really brief but longer than his blink-and-you'll-miss-it stint as EIC. It's a shame because Gerry's bad impact ended both Steve's great run on the book and Steve Gerber's run on the Defenders.

As I mentioned in the last review, Englehart continued to have co-writer or plot credits on 150-152. reading it, I don't see a whole lot of Englehart's influence, though. 150 & 151 are all about the next line-up change, for example. While it was clear Steve was moving Thor out, I seriously doubt that it was his idea to ship out Hellcat and possibly Moondragon. (I've recently seen an article where it shows that Steve had originally written a 'screw you, Marvel' caption at the end of 149 that got taken out before press, so I doubt he did anything on those three issues, except possibly some basic plot ideas he's planned ahead before deciding to leave.)

And for line-up change issues, which I usually adore, 150 & 151 were pretty dull. 150's page count is almost exclusively comprised of a reprint of Avengers 16, using that issue's historic change as a backdrop for this one. The rest of the story, spilling into 151, is mostly driven by news reports flashing back to all the various comings and goings. Line-up change stories should really only be one issue, especially when there's nothing else driving the story. Plus, this one was essentially a non-change, comprised of characters that were already in place since after the Celestial Madonna saga. No new, fun wild card characters thrown in and two of the most interesting, Hellcat and Moondragon, written out. So we're left with Iron Man, Cap, Vizh, Wanda, Beast, and Hank & Jan Pym. It's ridiculous that Beast has been around since 137 and is only now being inducted! Ordinarily, he would have provided the "sizzle", but he's already been around for over a year, so....whatevs. Given the monumental media build-up in-story, you'd think this was the most revolutionary line-up since issue 16. Not hardly. Patsy, at least, should have stayed.

Those two issues have a smattering of subplot teases and at least a hint of sizzle finally with the return of Wonder Man as an apparent undead ghoul. But they're pretty much a waste of time, otherwise, other than the Perez art, of course.

The rest of this block of issues is somewhat better, though, as we move into a three-part arc that centers around the return of Wonder Man and the forces that are using him to get at the Avengers. Wanda determines that Simon is an undead "zuvembie" (maybe that's the oringinal term for "zombie" that has since been shortened?!?), and she uses her powers to allow the Avengers to trace who is controlling Simon to New Orleans and a voodoo character named Black Talon who just smells of the '70s! They defeat him, but he doesn't know how Simon was brought back nor who was behind it and was controlling Simon on behalf of an unknown benefactor.

153, the first full-credited Conway script, picks up with wanda going back for the Serpent Crown for reasons that aren't explained satisfactorily. Last issue ended with her having doubts about her witchcraft and wanting to explore the reasons. This one began with her tying up a loose end as the Crown was lost in the battle at Brand. I'm guessing that she thought her exposure to it caused some problems for her, but that's a guess. It feels more like Gerry suddenly wanted to revisit the Crown and had her do so. She finds unexpected competition for the item in the form of the Living Laser, who defeats Wanda and escapes with it.

Meanwhile at Avengers Mansion, the Whizzer pops in for a visit to reconnect with his 'daughter' Wanda and son-in-law Vision but suddenly turns on and attacks the Avengers. The old guy gives them a good row. The Avengers realize that some one controlled old Bob, and we learn in the cliffhanger that it was the Living Laser, who has also manipulated zombie Wonder Man and is now controlling him, though it's shown that LL is not the one who revived Wondy. Also, recovering in the Brand rubble, wanda is shot in the arm by some goons.

Segue to annual 6, which ties the Whizzer and the Living Laser's stories together in a contrived way that misses a step or two in explaining. Basically, Bob came to the Avengers because his son Nuklon is being held by the military. The Laser has gone to the same base where Nuklo is being held where he has an ally in a corrupt general. It's apparently a total coincidence because the Avengers are going there to check on Nuklo and that happens to be where the Laser is making his vaguely-explained grab for power.

Again, the Serpent Crown is supposed to be the key, but the Laser only explains that "With its knowledge, I AM INVINCIBLE!" Just like in the original saga (you know, the one that happened just a few issues ago?), its power is ill-defined and apparently easily overcome! The Beast knocks it off the Laser's head, and the Vision takes off with it to dispose of it. The Laser is then easily dispatched, and the corrupt general unleashes Nuklo on the Avengers--you know, just cuz the Avengers suck or whatever.

So the Avengers battle Nuklo and have to stop him from going critical mass and destroying L.A. or whatever and are doing badly. Enter Bob Frank who apparently defeats and defuses his son by....running into him really fast? Huh?!?!

The annual ends with a Vision back-up where he takes on Whirlwind. It's not without charm but not remarkable. I would have thought it more logical for the tale to follow Vision after he left with the Crown, but instead it flashes back to earlier in the arc to show an unrelated vignette.

Honestly, I can see how Fickles said the stories got more juvenile after Steve left, if this is any indication. Just a lot of logic leaps and nonsensical bad guy stuff just because their bad guys. And Living Laser--not exactly awe-inspiring, like ever!

But there are still some nice points. I've always liked Wonder Man, and in the Annual, it's apparent he's more than just a mindless ghoul and even starts fighting alongside the Avengers. And the art throughout is TERRIFIC! George Perez does the annual in fine form and 152-153 feature John Buscema and Joe Sinnott doing simply GORGEOUS work on their issues! LOVE their work on Simon and his original costume, and their Cap is just so iconic. This certainly backs up Fickles' point about great art covering up sub-par stories. I think the story improves with the next arc

I have mixed feelings on the arc that starts here with the Vision. Simon's return renews his doubts about his humanity as he feels inferior or artificial around the real thing. On one hand, it's a perfectly natural source of conflict for him. On the other, I'd like to think he was past his doubts after learning of his origin and marrying Wanda. It certainly felt like a "turn the page" moment when it happened. I'll follow this closely and see how I feel.

So...not an auspicious start to the post-Englehart era, though somehow not a complete train wreck. You definitely get the feeling that the best has already happened, though, and not to come.



***Highly recommended TPB format! Well over 400, high-quality color pages for a $40 cover price, which can easily be found online for $25 or less!

Lardy, I agree that the Vision's self-doubt hits a sour note. Wanda's self-doubt hits an even more sour note for me. This whole post-Englehart era feels like a major turn-back-the-clock move, turning it all the way back to BEFORE Englehart started writing the book, as if everything he did and all the growth he provided the characters had never happened.

Regarding Wonder Man, I can confirm that bringing him back was Englehart's idea. His original plans for the next arc kinda sorta came to fruition several years later on his first WCA arc with the Grim Reaper and the Lethal Legion as villains.

Avengers Epic Collection: The Final Threat (collects Avengers 150-166, Avengers Annual 6-7, Super-Villain Team-Up 9 & Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2)

Review Part Two: Avengers 154-157 & Super-Villain Team-Up 9

Conway's run concludes with a 4-part story which involves Attuma, Dr. Doom and Namor as Attuma makes a bid to take over the world and stuff.

154 has him capture the Vision after Vision disposes of the Serpent Crown in the ocean. (Apparently, Attuma has no interest in said Crown. Perhaps he saw how little good it did the 2 most recent wearers over the previous 5 months? ) Vizh is the first of the Avengers Attuma plans to capture and force with special collars to battle Namor. Apparently, Attuma figures which ever side triumphs, he'll have one less party to worry about to stand in his way of conquest? Kind of a skewed logic, but we'll play along.

Anyhow, Attuma sends his souped-up henchman Tyrak to the Avengers disguised as the Inhuman Triton to get his foot in the door at the Mansion. With the element of surprise and the extra power, Tyrak first takes out the still-injured Wanda (from the gunshot wound in 153), even as Jarvis valiantly tries to help but gets swatted aside. Tyrak then takes out Cap, Iron Man, Wasp and Yellowjacket, but the Beast takes the better part of Valor and runs off, seemingly abandoning his fellows.

The story contines, rather clumsily, in SV Team-Up 9. Clumsily, because we're dropped into the middle of that title's storyline, and it's pretty confusing and not well explained. And elements of what's going on in Latveria there don't dovetail very well with the Avengers crossover. All of it serves to bring Namor and Doom into the story and set up a conflict between the collar-enslaved Avengers and Doom. Attuma intended for it to be between the Avengers and Namor, but apparently his intel was bad? In any case it's a poorly-done crossover issue, imo.

Anyhow, things improve a bit in 155 as Doom take out the collared Avengers with the help of Namor and some other Atlantean allies (confusing explanation from SVTU aside),and then the Avengers work together to help Vision escape Doom's captivity. Instead of freeing the others, Vizh approaches Doom and arranges a truce to take out their mutual enemy Attuma.

Meanwhile, Beast finds Wonder Man and the Whizzer to organize a rescue for the Avengers. They track Attuma down, and Attuma tricks Namor into thinking the three are his allies. So Namor and the three would-be rescuers fight while Attuma gets away. But Beast manages to stow away on Attuma's ship, which for some reason has air inside for a bunch of water-breathers....

From there, we get a fairly rousing conclusion in 156 where the Avengers, Namorita + other Atlanteans and Doom track down Attuma, even as the Beast leads his crew, who are now working with Namor, to the same place. Together, they take down Attuma and the even-more souped-up Tyrak (thanks to a watchamajigger Attuma stole). Doom, of course, betrays them to steal the watchamajigger, but Vision has a great idea and simply destroys it, negating the conflict. Doom, of course, vows vengeance! But Vision is still confused about his Wonder man dilemma, so it ends on a sour note.

Overall, this was a much better story than Conway's first effort. Still a bit on the juvenile side but not without some nice moments. Perez does 154 & 155 and is great as usual, then pulls a disappearing act. Sal Buscema (with Pablo Marcos) fills in on 156 and, just like his brother, looks like he never left and had been drawing the book all along. So again, the story doesn't suffer visually.

The SVTU issue actually credits Jim Shooter and S. Trapani as artists! We know he had a hand on the artistic side on LSH with Swan, but I've never actually seen him credited as artist on a story in the captions! The art on that story is nothing terribly memorable, but it's nonetheless a solid, competent effort. Kind of reminiscent of Bob Brown's work actually.

157 concludes Conway's run with a standalone story. In it the Avengers are apparently attacked by a stony Dane Whitman/Black Knight who is out for revenge and blaming the Avengers for his being left as a statue for so long. Turns out, though, that the statue only thinks it's Dane, and the soul of the real one still resides in his ancestor's body during the Crusades. Why this phenomenon with the statue has happened is never fully explained, but the statue basically pulverizes itself on the Vision's dense body as it can't handle the truth.

It was kind of an odd, out-there way for Conway to go out, if that was even his plan. I guess he saw it as tying up a loose end with the Knight, even as he cooked up a half-baked explanation for its reanimation. I honestly don't know whether to like the story for its quirkiness or dislike it for its flaws. Depending on your view, it's either helped or hurt by another guest art appearance by Don Heck. He's never a favorite of mine when he shows up, but his style is more suited to a more moody, darker tale like this one. So it's up in the air.

I do like Simon's scene in the issue, though, even as his being out shopping with Wanda is worrisome for the implications for our favorite android and mutant couple. But I like how both are out of costume and Simon gets to rescue pedestrians from a rogue bus.
I don't see how a statue could then knock out Simon by decking him into a mailbox, but I liked the scene leading up to it.

And so ends Conway's brief run. It's a pretty unremarkable and a shame it was at the expense of Steve Englehart. But history is what it is. What can you do....other than write alternate timelines!

Next up is Shooter. Let's see if he lives down to how Fickles feels about him on Avengers....

I certainly lean more toward sour than not, but I can see how that might cause conflict for the character. It's possible/likely Englehart had something similar in mind, if indeed he was planning to bring back Simon as you say. In fact I could say that he had to have been thinking about that angle that Simon would bring. In a way it's the most logical thing that could cause some sort of rift between them, especially on Vizh's part. Englehart would surely have handled it better, though.

I recall lots of stories that kind of nibbled around what it would mean to be an android with the brain patterns of another man and what it would mean to his relationship. It's never been explored in just the right way to my satisfaction. I think Steve even did a little with it on his WCA run, but I've never seen the perfect/last word on it. I doubt I ever will because the idea of Wanda and Vizh as a couple has basically been brutalized, immolated and buried as a couple since Avengers Disassembled.

Thanks for mentioning Pablo Marcos, Lardy. To me, Marcos is the unsung artistic hero of this Avengers era, keeping the book's look consistent even as Perez comes and goes.

Re: alternate timelines, I may be a LITTLE biased, but I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Avengers Epic Collection: The Final Threat (collects Avengers 150-166, Avengers Annual 6-7, Super-Villain Team-Up 9 & Marvel Two-In-One Annual 2)

Review Part Three: Avengers 158-162

So Jim Shooter takes over as writer with this batch of issues, and I must say it's off to a very good start! I had fairly low expectations based on the opinion of the esteemed Fickles, but by and large, I'm pleasantly surprised at this point.

Again, Shooter's cause isn't hurt at all by some terrific art by Sal Buscema on issues 158-9 and George Perez's return for the latter three issues of the five. Both produce some of their best pencils in their respective Avengers runs to this point, and as Fickles says, Pablo Marcos inks both pencillers and, I'm sure, contributes to the book looking consistently beautiful through the differing pencilling styles. Marcos is clearly one of those inkers who doesn't overpower the pencil art, instead accentuating it and yet tightening them up where it's needed. I don't know how long he stays aboard the book, but I'm looking forward to seeing more of his work while he lasts.

In my mind these stories have kind of a unified theme to them in that they focus on various Avengers and their extended families. 158 begins with, and features on the cover, a clash between "brothers" Vision and Wonder Man. Vision's doubts about his humanity in the light of Simon's return suddenly boil over, and Vision picks a fight with him when he thinks Simon's getting too close to Wanda. While some might think this is childish of the Vision and might be viewed as some of that character regression I mentioned with Conway, I actually thought it was well done by Shooter. Mainly because, though it's left unsaid, it just shows how human Vision truly is! It was fun to see Vision just let go with some anger and just throw down! It was a fun fight and well-choreographed.

I dunno...I guess I'm waffling a bit, but I've said before that I could see Simon being back getting his goat because of the brain patterns thing. Humans don't very easily put past insecurities behind them, so why not the Vision? And I like that later in this batch of the issues, Wanda and Vizh seem more lovey-dovey in the aftermath, as if his venting a little and not keeping it all inside helped them in the long run. That rings true, so maybe it's not so bad, this "regression"?

The remainder of 158 & 159 deal with the threat of Graviton, who makes his first appearance here. In Shooter's intro of what would turn out to be a stalwart Avengers foe for some time, he reminds me of what an interesting and powerful threat Graviton can be. In a real way he comes off as the Avengers' very own Magneto as far as his ability to take on the whole team and present such an awesome threat to them. (In fact I'd like to see a Magneto vs. Graviton fight! ) I love that Shooter just goes for it immediately and shows the breadth of Grav's power with the visual of the whole city being ripped from the ground and held hostage. There's a lot of megalomania there, of course, but it works for Grav somehow.

It's a fun, awesome battle with very high stakes, and it's nice to see Shooter immediately add to the Avengers rogues gallery in a significant way--something even Englehart really didn't do, choosing instead to explore old foes in exciting ways. Sal and Pablo really deliver the visuals of the character and concept, too!

Issue 160 features the return of the Grim Reaper, continuing the "extended family" theme I mentioned that unifies the issues. With Simon's return, his brother the Reaper, in his grand dramatic fashion, oversees a trial to determine whether the Vision or Wonder Man is in fact his brother. It definitely has that edge of '70s melodrama to it, but that happens to be one of those things I love about '70s superhero comics! It's fun, it's insightful into the three "brothers"and is just one of the best single issues in this whole long run I've read that started with issue 89. It hits all the notes I want to see in the dynamic among these three characters and just nails what I want to see in an Avengers story that you couldn't quite get in any other comic.

Cobalt Kid (whatever happened to him since Celestial Madonna?!?! ) apparently spoke truth when we discussed the last Grim Reaper story when he said (paraphrasing) that for a very long time any story featuring the Reaper was just money in the bank that it would be awesome. No argument from me in this instance! And, damned if Perez's art doesn't look its best yet here in his Avengers run--like he was especially inspired! He and Marcos make a great team!

And the "extended family" arc concludes in issues 161-2, this time featuring the return of Ultron, as the "son" of Hank Pym looks to use his "dad" to help him make his own robotic "bride". The Vision, as Ultron's own "son", is involved in the mix (as he was in the other two groups), but he really takes a back seat while "mom" Jan is pulled in more than before. Ultron messes with Hank's memories to forget all but his earliest days as an Avenger to manipulate Hank into helping bring his bride to life. Ultron's plan is to have Jan's personality completely and permanently transplanted into the bride's shell. The insightful comparison is made to Ultron having an Oedipal complex. Maybe a little mature in overtones for this all-ages book, but the extra literal reference is a nice Easter egg for older readers and is consistent with Ultron's characterization before and after. The bride is, of course, Jocasta, her name a direct reference to Oedipus's mother. Interestingly, she is not named here, but we know she'll turn up again, the experiment later revealed to not have failed after all.

Again, very '70s/Silver Agey and very reminiscent of some of Shooter's Legion work but not in a bad way. Having Ultron seek a bride was a very natural progression for the character and one well-executed. I like the parallels and evocations of both the Frankenstein and Oedipus stories. Just a classic act in a continuing saga that was done very right for a while, much like the Grim Reaper's story.

While Shooter brings back Thor and the Black Panther for guest appearances maybe too soon after Englehart wrote them out, contrarily, I enjoyed how he seems to be slowly segueing Hawkeye back into the mix with the fun scenes of Clint and Two-Gun living at the dude ranch. Those were fun scenes and make me wish there were more adventures of the two characters to read. Plus, well, I always miss Clint when he's gone, as I think is well-established in my write-ups of his various departures. Panther and Thor do have some good scenes, though. (I particularly enjoyed Panther acting as a lawyer in Reaper's sham trial!)

Again, a great start to the Shooter era with material that compares favorably to Englehart's great run. It's a young run, though, and many writers "blow their wad" in the early going and falter from there. We'll see if Shooter lives down to Fickles' expectations or if there's still good stuff to come.....

Here's some of my problems with 158-162:

- Graviton's sleaziness and creepiness.

- Psycho Hank Pym.

- The Oedipal stuff is too "on the nose".

- Wanda getting overwhelmed by ants -- come on, Englehart would have had her hex them away with a flick of her wrist.

As promised a while ago, here are the origins I made up for Magdalene and the second Swordsman:

Magdalene is the daughter of the Wonder Man & Scarlet Witch of an alternate Earth. Her parents were the premier Avengers of this Earth. When her daughter didn’t live up to Wanda’s standards of femininity, Wanda had her educated at an exclusive European finishing school, which was where Maggie developed her peculiar accent. Then Earth was conquered by the evil other-dimensional cosmic warlord Mergul, despite his son Kirz’s alliance with the world’s superheroes, almost all of whom were massacred, except for Kirz, who lay low while he recovered.
Mergul turned over four teenage daughters of superheroes – Magdalene, Rumiko (daughter of Sunfire and Tamara Rahn), Rashida (daughter of Captain Marvel II and Power Man), and Eve (daughter of Thor and Jane Foster) – to Brother Believer, who brainwashed them, and Sister Superior, who trained them. They became Mergul’s elite guard, the Gladiatrixes, each deriving her individual powers from one of the four elements: Earth (Rashida), Wind (Eve), Fire (Magdalene), and Water (Rumiko.) Magdalene was seemingly the only one for whom the brainwash was not wholly successful, and she plotted to break free. Her resolve was strengthened when she met the Swordsman, Philip Javert.

Philip was born into the circus life. His English mother was a tightrope walker, and his French father was a strongman at the same circus where the first Swordsman mentored Philip’s childhood friend, Hawkeye. He admired the Swordsman and wanted to be just like him when he grew up. As a young adult, his increasingly roguish adventures led him to Vietnam, where the first Swordsman did not find any woman to rescue and redeem him; instead, dying, he passed the mantle to Philip. In the jungles of Southeast Asia, Philip met Mantis (Heather Douglas), the orphaned protégé of the Priests of Pama, and they ran off together, eventually joining the Avengers. Mantis capriciously jilted Philip for the Vision, leaving Philip heartbroken and aimless.

Magdalene and Philip first crossed paths when Mergul had the Gladiatrixes and other menaces invade Philip’s universe. They fell in love at first sight. The Avengers captured Magdalene, and Mantis undid her brainwashing. With Magdalene’s help, Mergul was temporarily defeated, but as Philip and the Avengers escaped back to their home dimension, Magdalene, who was laying down cover fire, failed to follow them. Magdalene remained trapped in her home universe, where, years later, Mergul’s son, Kirz, became Sersi’s Gann Josin, and eventually led the universe into an apocalypse. This was when Proctor rescued Magdalene.

Meanwhile, Philip was inconsolable over Magdalene’s loss, and when Hawkeye, Thor, and Iron Man were killed by Kang’s forces, Vision formed a new Avengers, hiring outlaws Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver, leaving Philip the odd man out. When Kang attacked again at Vision and Mantis’ wedding, Philip was wounded and left for dead. This was when Proctor rescued Philip.

Unknown to both Magdalene and Philip, Proctor only wanted to use Philip as a pawn and dispose of him once he had served his purpose.

In the end, Philip and Magdalene both sided with the Avengers of Earth-616, and the Sersi of Earth-616 killed Proctor.

My apologies on the lack of comments lately. I’ve been incredibly busy (and maybe one of these days will get around to explaining why). I’ll try to give some thoughts on the various issues reviewed since I last posted, though some of them may be abbreviated. That actually probably works out okay; I love the Celestial Madonna Saga and recently reread the whole thing a few year ago. But my rereads usually have a hard stop at Giant Sized Avengers #4, because while I do like what happens next, it just doesn’t have the glory and grandeur of the Celestial Madonna Saga itself. So my memory is slightly more fuzzy on the subsequent issues, which I probably last read about 15 years ago.

The Coming of the Beast
These issues I remember enjoying as it had a lot of promise of Englehart playing with new characters to refill the depleted roster. I love the concept of the furry Beast joining the Avengers and becoming a stalwart member for the next several years; I would have no objections at all if he ever became a full-fledged member again. While he’s had many great stories in the X-Men since he rejoined that franchise, he often falls into the role of “reliable scientist”, while in Avengers he takes on a more swashbuckling, fun personality (since there are like 10 other scientists on the team—a point Shooter does a good job showing later).

I don’t love Englehart’s depiction of Hank, and in fact, I really don’t love Hank’s depiction hereafter all the way to Roger Stern. Not that Steve started it—it is actually Roy who started this downward slide years earlier. And not just in the Yellowjacket / wedding story either, which is the easiest place to point to, but rather his ongoing depiction of Hank thereafter, specifically in the issues leading to the Kree / Skrull War where (I believe) he gives the Wasp a slap for the first time (and BTW, I’m pretty sure he isn’t the only one). But too often, Hank is used—much like Wanda—more as a plot point to cause the other members grief, rather than being allowed to grow and be a great character. Both characters, and so many others, deserve more respect than that, particularly since both have origins dating back to the early 60’s.

Tuska gets a bad rap and I can see why. But if anyone ever doubts that he can be brilliant when he wants to be, I suggest you check out his various runs on Iron Man, which at many times reach the highest levels of quality. That was obviously a series he cared deeply for on a personal level and it shows in the work itself.

The Serpent Crown
Like Lardy, for me the Serpent Crown is always a bit of a letdown. It’s probably (for me) the weakest part of Steve’s run, despite having the initial beautiful art by Perez. Certainly, my feelings are influenced by the big fill-in story plugged right in the middle (and I’ve never not read them in order of publication so that disrupts everything), and probably because you can sense Steve was suddenly pushed out at the tail end. I also feel the roster kind of lingered in limbo for too long and that got a little tiring after awhile.

But basically, as Lardy mentions, it just suffers from not being the Celestial Madonna story and not having Mantis. I like Hellcat a lot, so I can see where Fanfie is coming from in saying Hellcat serves as a good replacement for Mantis, but for me, Mantis is something really special and the Avengers have never been able to duplicate having that really special central character—until all those many years later with Sersi and Crystal. I can easily see Steve making Hellcat *that* character if he was able to say, and in a totally different way, which could have been really exciting, but it never came to pass. Alas, she went on to Defenders and kicked as there for many years, so its not a total loss.

The Serpent Crown as a plot piece is a little underwhelming to me as well. For whatever reason, it never had the gravitas that I can see was intended. Likewise, Kang in the Old West is an awesome concept IMO when thought of as a ‘one-off’ fun story, but as the final finale of the Englehart Kang stories, it falls just a little flat.

I hate to sound like I don’t like these issues. I’d KILL for a run of these types of issues in today’s Avengers. They just don’t have the urgency and grandeur of the Celestial Madonna, as obviously unfair as it is to say that. I do like Hawkeye & Two-Gun becoming friends, and unlike probably everyone else in the world, I like the dynamic characterization of Moondragon, who as a character is not the most likable but as someone interacting on a team is awesomely multi-dimensional and never easy to describe or understand. And like I said, I like Patsy Walker quite a bit. I love her history, her character, the Cat costume, etc.

The Changing of the Order
To sum up the line-up change issue, I can easily say this: as a kid, I loved these stories. It is both an “event” in that things change in the most unsubtle way possible, and it also serves as essentially a recap of everything that’s happened since day one. Marvel for whatever reason LOVED to do these recap issues in the mid and late 70’s. Every series had one, from Spider-Man to Iron Man to everything else. As a kid, I loved them.

As an adult…they are kind of ‘skip issues’ for me. I don’t really love them anymore. They’re a bit bland and very forced, as they try to take the history of an entire franchise and present it as a narrative where everything that ever happened has led to this point. I don’t believe that anymore.

This one, especially, didn’t have anything really worth going ga-ga over, and was a pretty safe way to proceed with the team.

Super-Villain Team-Up tie-in
This story is probably the weakest the entire Avengers series has gotten thus far in its entire history. Very, very weak story with little that is memorable. Conway, who is probably the most hot & cold writer ever in comics, is at his coldest here. Even my beloved Jack Kirby, who provides covers, clearly is bored and uninterested. Legend has it that he had no idea Yellowjacket was the same Giant-Man he helped create a decade earlier and when someone finally told him, he just sighed sadly.

Part of my frustration was I spent a few weeks once trying to find and read every single story that tied into the “Black Knight as a stone statue” years since the Black Knight is a personal favorite of mine. And to my frustration I learned that just about every single story in the 70’s that has to do with the Black Knight being a stone statue is a pretty weak or outright bad story. BAH!

Enter Jim Shooter
My preferences for Avengers eras mirror Fanfie’s pretty well, though I don’t agree with her about Shooter’s run—though let me also say, I don’t totally disagree with her. For me, Shooter’s run is for the most part, pretty entertaining; though I certainly don’t rank it as high as Englehart, Stern, Harras, Thomas or the original 16 issues. But I don’t dislike it. For the most part it’s a mixed bag: there is a lot of positive, but there are a few glaring negatives that irk the shit out of me.

Clearly, this is when Perez just exploded, and revealed his talent to the world. Any Perez issue, regardless of who wrote or inked it, is so mesmerizing to look at, that it makes the experience enjoyable. So Perez takes the stories to another level, whether they deserved to or not.

I’ve always found the resurrection of Wonder Man something that just *had* to happen eventually. His initial story is fantastic and a Silver Age highlight. He directly influences the creation of the Vision; he directly influences the creation of the Grim Reaper, who recurs as a foe (and like I said before which Lardy reiterated, usually in a very high quality way). Even while dead, he’s at the center of the “family” being pieced together with the Vision / Wanda / Grim Reaper / Ultron / Hank. So he was bound to return. Once he’s returned I for the most part like Simon, though most of his “recently returned” appearances are not my favorite stories for him. Actually, he’s kind of a bit of a dud for the longest time—probably until much later when he was in the West Coast Avengers and had his own series. Until then, he was a little run of the mill.

That being said, his clashes with the Vision are well thought out and add a great element of drama to the series. It presents a twist to the Wanda / Vision romance that only sci-fi and superheroes could give you, and it rightly becomes an ongoing centerpiece in the series for some time after. The cover where they are hammering away on each other is one that delivers on the promise of Wonder Man returning in the first place—why resurrect him if you aren’t going to pursue this story? Their eventual growing friendship, still tempered by awkwardness, is also fun to read about.

I do like Graviton as a villain for the same reason I like the upgrade to Count Nefaria, as it creates a very powerful mega-villain that can battle most or all of the entire roster. Fanfie is right, though, in pointing out his innate creepiness (which Shooter infuses in so many stories that its slightly alarming). The Avengers need recurring mega-powerful villains that are not teams and not “big bads” like Kang or Ultron, and he fits the bill nicely.

Great point about Pablo Marcos and the next time I read these, I’ll keep an eye out for it.

As we’ve said, the Grim Reaper showing up is always great, and I like this tory quite a bit too. It’s the most natural story to do once Vision and Wonder Man have it out and things seem to have settled, and Shooter & company don’t let us down. This is one of the best stories of the era IMO, and does a great job showcasing all three characters in a good way.

For me though, things dip down in quality in a major way as Ultron returns, and I really find the next story to be a clunker. There are a lot of reasons why but what really “irks” me are the following: I hate, hate, hate, the Hank having a nervous breakdown shit. It drives me crazy and thus causes me to hate this story for the most part. Beyond that, I’ve also found that any time a writer tries to utilize Sigmund Freud—who most psychologists now agree was wrong in most things, and in some circles consider nothing more than a huckster and charlatan—I find it to be highly annoying. The Freudian references here with Hank and Ultron are so on the nose they hurt, and it doesn’t help the entire complex is a bunch of made-up nonsense that Freud suckered so many people into believing. Lastly, Shooter almost always has to have a story about some villain trying to make a woman forcefully be his bride, and once one picks up on that pattern over several decades, it starts to feel a little alarming.

Jocasta herself is a pretty decent addition to the Avengers mythos but she suffers from a common problem: great concept for a character but she’s never actually been in a really great story where she was one of the leads. Like so many others characters, she makes me want to say: “okay, if you’re so great, show me why.” Maybe one day someone will do exactly that.

The return of the Black Panther and Thor is something I can forgive Shooter. It’s clearly heralding the coming return of every Avenger ever with the addition of several more which leads to the book being crowded beyond measure for Korvac. I don’t mind that, and think its kind of fun. For the Panther and Thor specifically, I can see how Shooter and Perez may have had trouble imagining the Avengers without them at this point. Since Roy finally convinced Stan to let him have Iron Man and Thor back in the Avengers during the second Ultron story (which in and of itself is an interesting story in Avengers lore), Thor had a pretty ongoing presence in the series, especially since Steve took over; and he’s of course a central icon of the series. The Panther too had been pretty consistently part of the series since he first joined in #51, and although he had a few brief lulls where he was nowhere to be found (basically the Kree / Skrull War and the end of Steve’s run) he was certainly part of the series more than not being part of it for quite a number of years now. One has to wonder if he wasn’t shown the exit in #181 like so many others if he would have remained a stalwart member like Hawkeye all these decades later.

So Shooter’s run kicks off with a lot of good and some bad as he delivers what I think is his best story, the Grim Reaper one, and then one of his worst stories, the Ultron / Jocasta one. I don’t quite remember individual roles the heroes play in the stories though, so I’m missing that frame of reference in the discussion. I can remember, for example, the Beast being written well in general while Wanda is pushed to the side, but I’m having a hard time coming up with examples for it.

One last thing: I don't believe there were ever any adventures of Hawkeye & Two-Gun Kid that were published outside of the Avengers. Am I right about that?

That would be a fun series to read about: "The Adventures of Two-Gun and Hawkeye".

Well, whatever it is, it's a pleasure to have you report back in--even as it comes right after an unsubtle poke in my last post! But seriously, it's never quite the same when either of you is missing!

So....regarding Graviton: I dunno...I think it's okay to occasionally have some "creepiness" in a villain, here or there, lest they all seem too much alike. I'm guessing that what you refer to here is both how he comes off like a wannabe cult leader and especially his coerced pursuit of the one lady's affections. I don't really fault Shooter too much for that. It's a fairly well-used trope in super villain storylines. I mean, the same thing just happened in the Celestial Madonna storyline, which we all revere, with Kang looking to take Mantis for his bride. If you linger too much on Kang's stated intention to sire a son with her, you get into rape territory. Here, that's more of a stretch as the story's presented here, at least.

Plus, at least we don't get the insulting trope of the captive falling for the evil megalomaniac. She plays along to save her husband, but she wants no part of this crazy mo-fo! Now, whether she actually tries to kill herself is another matter. Graviton certainly thought so, but she could have just been running from him as fast as she could without regard to where she was heading. Luckily, Jarvis saves the day!

No, Shooter's greatest sin along these lines awaits over 40 issues later in a story I don't intend to get back to anytime soon, as this project should end with 196.

As far as Ultron foes, I'll have to continue to politely disagree with the both of you. In a universe where Ultron has already attempted to create a son, it makes sense that he would try something along those lines again. And I don't think Freud was the biggest inspiration here, but instead Frankenstein and Oedipus. In the novel Frankenstein the monster envies his creator's relationship and demands the father create a bride for him. In this story, as in the classic, the bride's creation is scuttled. The classic monster had some parallels with Oedipus as well, so if anything, you should be mad at Shooter for borrowing from the classics! Look, it's done all the time in all forms of media, and here, I think Shooter did a good job presenting and reformatting the idea.

But the truer source of both of your objections is probably what this story represents to Hank Pym and especially where it will eventually go. I can't defend that, but as Cobie says, the damage started way before Shooter. Englehart contributed, and it all really started with Roy Thomas. Here in this story, at least, it is explained that Hank's behavior was caused by Ultron altering his memory. But Shooter was definitely building on what others had done with the character before him, for better or worse.

Before all of this, I thought Shooter just chose to piss on the character out of the blue. Just as Michelinie and Layton chose to build on what we had been shown of Tony Stark to bring him to alcoholism, Shooter did the same with Hank and his mental issues. I'm sure there are still some old school Iron Man fans who wished that had never happened. Lots of people have praised both stories (especially Tony's, admittedly). I've said myself before that both Tony's alcoholism and Hank's domestic abuse helped me in some small way growing up with a father who was both an alcoholic and abusive. So there's part of me that will always defend Shooter on that point to some degree.

I recall an editor's note in the finale of that story telling Steve to "get on it" or something like that. Maybe he would have had the timing of his split with Marvel been what it was. It's kind of a shame as it would have been hella fun!

Yeah, I think when it comes to Hank Pym, it'll always be a little hard to reach a consensus, as I've clearly stated I have an emotional and somewhat unreasonable opinion on all these stories with him that tends to sharply influence how I view a lot of things. It is what it is, I guess. But as always, I appreciate the opposing viewpoint! And the nod to Frankenstein, a novel I love (unlike the boring Dracula), is a good point and one I admit I haven't really considered before, obvious as it is.

I'm interested in your thoughts on Korvac as you continue as I tend to have a pretty positive view of the storyline. I loved it as a youngster and while its not the be-all, end-all story for me that it is for some others, I still enjoyed it when I last reread it.

I, on the other hand, loathe The Korvac Saga. The first time I read it, I almost threw the trade across the room. The once-in-a-blue-moon re-reads haven't changed my mind.

Shooter's creepy sexual politics go all the way back to his original Legion run -- I'd say the very first instance would have to be the ending of the Taurus Gang story, with Quanto taking it upon himself to change Mystelor for what he perceives to be the better.

Lardy, I'm surprised you didn't say anything about my comment on Wanda being overwhelmed by the ants and how she'd never have been so weak when written by Englehart.

Oops, I actually meant to! My counterpoint is: How would she hex a swarm of ants crawling and stinging all over her? I'm not saying she couldn't, but her power is typically shown to work over a distance.



Well, I'll be getting to it soon enough, after I read 163-166 and the Avengers and Two-In-One annuals. I hope whichever one of you I end up disagreeing with about Korvac won't feel betrayed....

No reason to worry about either of us feeling betrayed, Lardy. We've always been very respectful of each others' opinions.

Regarding Wanda, I think you make a valid point. Upon reflection, my issue is more with the dialogue that Shooter gives her, which, IIRC, goes something like: "Aaaah! Help! Get them off me!" The strong, regal Wanda of the Englehart era would never have talked like that or turned helpless so easily.

Her power is generally pretty awesome at giving horriblerottenverybadnogood luck to a single target at a time.

It would depend on the environment around her, but she might be able to cause a water sprinkler to go off, or a similar area effect to disperse the swarm, but it's not like hexing one of 10,000 ants to trip and smash into another ant would have much of an effect on the swarm as a whole.

Still, outside? Freak gust of wind, or something, perhaps. Indoors? Fire suppression system goes off and sprays halon gas all over the place. It's not like she'd be helpless at a swarm coming at her, but she does seem to have to be able to concentrate to focus her power, and 'covered with biting ants' is probably not conducive to concentration...

Or maybe she's got chaos magic or reality manipulation this week and turn them all into tiny mutant ant-people who serve her will or say 'No. More. Ants!' Hard to say, depending on how terribly she's being written.