Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities The All Avengers Thread

As you know form those recent Facebook free-for-alls we had among me, you, Lash, Dev, Pov, etc., I've already read the Celestial Madonna saga. But when reading said saga prompted this Avengers binge, I decided to talk about it in chronological order, rather than start with it and then backtrack. Can't wait to get to it, though!



Yeah, it's hard to see it ending any other way, but I can't help but be curious how Neal would have done it. He was such a big contributor to the story that it's hard not to wonder.

Do you agree that 96, Neal's last, was the most awe-inspiring part of the storyline, though?

Fanfie, I think Mooney inked 1-2 of Kane's issues somewhere along the way. I'll have to remember which ones.

He mostly inked Romita and himself, and did the Big John issues in the Schemer / Kingpin story. He also did a bunch of MTU issues.

And Lardy, #96 was superb. It's the first time the Avengers really jump feet first into a space battle, and it definitely set the pace for future stories.

I'll have to reread for more specifics though. I remember Vision shining like he had all saga.

BTW, I've been debating getting some Defenders Masterworks for a while, especially Vol. 2 as it replicates the Avengers/Defenders War in some of its contents. However, I found a good deal on the first 2 volumes on eBay ($35 for the pair together and free shipping), so I went ahead and bought it. Both retail at $60 apiece! Plus, Vol. 2 contains ten issues other than the A/D War-related ones. I'll be curious to see what Hawkeye was up to over there after he left!

Lardy, I certainly look forward to finding out what you think of those Defenders issues. I recently looked at a Defenders re-read I started but never finished in another thread, and I said there that issues #1-5 were really, really good.

Marvel Masterworks: Avengers Vol. 12 (collects Avengers 112-119 & Defenders 8-11)

Review part one: Avengers 112-115

As Fickles/Le Ficque pointed out, the issues between, say, Hawkeye's departure in 109 and the Avengers/Defenders War are a mixed bag at best. (We covered the sub-par Magneto story that appeared in 110-111 last time.)

Issue 112 is notable mostly because it features the first appearance of Mantis, albeit only in a three-panel teaser. It's also the last issue drawn by Don Heck in his brief return as Avengers artist before Bob Brown takes over for awhile. Mantis appears first in a different costume here than what we would see her in henceforth. Same color scheme, but more like an elegant Asian gown and with an ornamental headpiece. No protruding hair/antennae either.

Otherwise, we have a rather forgettable villain in the Lion-God. What could have been an intriguing look at the Panther's responsibilities and the controversy about his name and the real-life Black Panthers amounts to another simple mind control scenario and an unremarkable battle with an unremarkable foe who no one remembers.

Plus, it's frustrating to see the Black Widow join last issue only to leave at the end of this one, especially to go back to her man Daredevil. I know better things are to come for her with the Avengers at a future date, but this was barely a tease.

Issue 113 is an interesting and forward-thinking issue, though a little clumsy and heavy-handed at times. Here, Englehart builds on the notion that the public knowledge of the Scarlet Witch/Vision romance would be controversial and actually lead to violence among extremists who oppose the pairing of a human with an artificial being. I like the idea because it's not hard to see Englehart's underlying allegory, so we can see he's really talking about interracial or homosexual couplings, both of which were targets of hate crimes fairly frequently at the time.

He takes things a step further by having the hate group actually be suicide bombers! Sure, it's kind of comic-booky, as "the Living Bombs" wear helmets with push handles on top to set off their devices, but each and every one of them actually kills themselves before the story is over. Of course, if it were told these days, we'd have bone and sinew drawn in sickening detail, but we're spared any graphic depictions in those more innocent times. So just a generic explosion mostly, but the effect is taken, even if the sheer horror of their actions is downplayed.

I think that for a Comics Code-approved book, this one may have been pretty daring. I have no idea if fandom responded to it as such in the lettercols and fanzines of the time, but in a way it was just as bold as the drug issues in Amazing Spider-man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow and such. I'm sure this was overlooked largely because of the use of allegory instead of just outright using gay or interracial lovers being persecuted and that the suicide bombers weren't used in a relatable terrorist scenario. But sometimes, presenting readers with a scenario and letting them draw their own parallels is just as effective.

Don't get me wrong--this is NOT one of those all-time must-read stories. It IS flawed and could have been a lot better done, but I appreciate what Englehart attempted to do here.

Before I leave the issue, I should mention that during the climax, the bombers are trying to intervene as T'Challa, Dr. Don Blake and Tony Stark combine their skills to operate on the Vision after the bombers damaged him. There's a great panel where the readers and the two characters themselves realize that Blake and Stark know each other's secret. I was a little surprised because I didn't think that their secret I.D.s were mutually revealed until sometime around Stern's run. It's possible, though, that I'm right because something happens soon during the Avengers/Defenders War that might put the cat back in the bag if I understood it right.

Issue 114 features the full intro of Mantis and the reveal of her pairing with the Swordsman. Mantis enters in dramatic fashion as she intervenes in a skirmish between Wanda and some construction workers. Seems Wanda isn't feeling the love for humans after the attempt on the Vision's life by suicide bombers, and she runs into some into some oafs who egg her on about it. She hexes one, but he gets up and pimp-slaps her! Mantis appears and kicks his ass, then helps Wanda back to Avengers Mansion.

Swordsman follows them inside and announces that he wants another chance with the Avengers after his earlier betrayal of them, explaining that his love for Mantis has reformed him. Everyone but Cap is convinced to give him a chance and Mantis stays on as well, though not actually joining. My favorite bit is how Mantis kisses all the guy Avengers and leaves lipstick on their faces! That panel of cap with lipstick on his chin looking perplexed and Thor with it on his lips looking blissful is hilarious!

The rest of the issue plays out like an old Adventure era issue of the LSH as a new member is eyed with suspicion and seemingly is revealed as a snake until the altruistic motivations behind their siding with the bad guy (in this case, the return of the not-missed Lion-God) is revealed, and they help save the day. However, the last panel shows that Cap still has his doubts.

So this was overall a formulaic story that is enhanced by the significance of these two characters joining and the knowledge of what lies ahead with them. I think it's a good showcase for both Mantis and Swordsman, and all of the Avengers have nice moments. One good one I liked was the quick sequence where Vision fights Cap and Iron Man to prove he's recovered from his injuries from the suicide bombers.

I wasn't all that familiar with artist Bob Brown prior to this Masterworks edition. When a fill-in issue of Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run featured his art, I didn't recognize the name. But he did competent work there, and I think he did really good work on 113-115. Particularly, issue 114 was pretty much masterful. He really brought Mantis alive for me here and made her an intriguing and distinctive character. (And quite beautiful, lest I forget! ) I think he nails pretty much every panel and page in the issue, even if the Lion-God isn't any more memorable for it. And later....when we get to the Avengers/Defenders War? Well, it's pretty obvious that Bob and Sal Buscema are both really inspired! But I'm getting ahead of myself...

Next is issue 115, which features the Avengers flying to England to search for their missing former member the Black Knight. Instead, they encounter an impenetrable magical barrier around his castle and get attacked by some underground dwellers who think the Avengers put up the barrier.

*sigh* Not much to enjoy here in what is very much a stereotypical adventure against subterranean "troglodytes" (so named), replete with broken English and a giant underground monster. The only cool part for me was that Black Panther gets to save the day, utilizing his own particular skill set. Plus, the Avengers actually get the troglodytes some help and a chance to integrate with the surface world in the end, which is a fairly unusual outcome.

What is more significant is that the issue ends with a 3-page Prologue to the Avengers/Defenders War, introducing the intriguing villain match-up of Loki and Dormammu and the seeds of their master plan involving the mysterious Evil Eye. A scintillating teaser to what is a really enjoyable crossover!

So! I talked so much about these "unremarkable" issues, that I feel the need to give the Avengers/Defenders war it's own post! Stay tuned for Part 2 of the review of this Masterworks coming soon to a Legion World near you!

Wow, Lardy, you've really put those issues, especially 113, in a new light. I'll have to go back and re-read them now. Thank you for another excellent review. Looking forward to your thoughts on the Avengers/Defenders War.

And I wonder if Cobie might know the fan response to 113 at the time. Oh, Cobie...

Marvel Masterworks: Avengers Vol. 12 (collects Avengers 112-119 & Defenders 8-11)

Review Part Two: Avengers/Defenders War (thru chapter 8)

So it seems like I've been waiting FOREVER to read the Avengers/Defenders War! I remember getting a taste of it way, WAY back when I read through a small stash of comics my dad had when I was a kid. (Dad wasn't an avid comics reader as an adult, but he would randomly pick up and read some. I think reading some of what he brought home may have planted the seeds of my life-long comics obsession!) This turned out to be Avengers #117, which featured the battle between Cap and the Sub-Mariner on the cover. It was the only part of the crossover I ever got to read, but I could tell there was a lot that came before and after that story. And now--what, 35 years or so later?--I finally got to read the whole thing and re-experience the one issue I had read.

So...where to begin? The Masterworks continues where the Prologue left off by reprinting the 4-page first chapter from Defenders #8. This 4-pager sets up both teams' involvement perfectly by starting with the Black Knight's plight of having been turned into stone in a previous adventure with the Defenders. The Defenders are trying to reverse his situation, and the Avengers are trying to figure out whatever happened to their former member with their only clue being that Doctor Strange was involved. Dormammu and Loki alter a message sent from the Knight to Strange and alter it so that Strange and the Defenders feel they must retrieve the pieces of an object called the Evil Eye to reverse his condition. Dormammu, however, plans to use the assembled device to cause his Dark Dimension to swallow ours. Loki's in it to regain his eyesight, having been blinded in a previous adventurein Thor's book.

So, quickly, things begin to hit the fan in Avengers #116. The Avengers arrive at Strange's Sanctum seeking answers but are cast out by Strange's automatic mystic defenses, Strange himself being unaware of their presence. The Avengers leave to decide their next move, while the Defenders proceed on their quest for the parts of the Eye. Then, Loki decides to play both sides in case Dormammu is duping him by approaching the Avengers and spinning what the Defenders are doing as a quest for their own personal power.

And really, I was amazed by how much sense all of this made in terms of how the circumstances lined up and how well crafted the plot was. It worked because the Defenders worked secretly and were completely unknown to the Avengers at the time. Plus, each one of its members were mysterious or known to work at cross-purposes to the Avengers on various occasions. I mean, Namor had tried to conquer the surface world on occasion. The Silver Surfer helped Galactus destroy worlds. The Hulk, though a founding Avenger, was at best a wild card and at worst a menace hunted by the military. Strange was enigmatic. A prior character known as the Valkyrie had fought the Avengers. And then there was Hawkeye, the Avenger who left in a snit with a chip on his shoulder. And, as far as the Avengers knew, the Defenders were responsible for the Black Knight's plight and were doing everything to keep the Avengers away. I'd say for a hero vs. hero epic, this is one of the better, more believable set-ups, and I appreciate Englehart's effort to craft the scenario so well as to make suspending disbelief not required to enjoy it.

In the same issue we have the first battle: the Silver Surfer vs. Vision& the Scarlet Witch. First of all, how can anyone read this and not dig a battle over and in a volcano, huh? For a nine-page scenario, it's pretty fun, with the caveat that Wanda is knocked out of it pretty quickly and ends up being a distraction for Vizh in the form of damsel in distress to allow Mr. Radd to win the piece in question. It's interesting that Vizh was able to go toe-to-toe with the Surfer for a while. I think if the battle were prolonged, Surfer would have prevailed, but it says something about Vision's power levels for him to last a while against a cosmic being and duke it out in a volcano, no less!

The story continues with Defenders #9 as Sufer brings news to Strange of the defenders opposition. Continuing to reinforce the believability of their being at odds, Strange discovers that Loki has been at Avengers mansion. their natural assumption is that Loki is that Loki's pulling their strings (and it's not untrue either!). Plus, he discovers that known villain the Swordsman is suddenly within their ranks. I love the plausibility!

This issue features 2 matchups, the first being Iron Man vs. Hawkeye. Steve's decision to have Hawkeye be among the defenders when this conflict starts was obviously a stroke of genius on Englehart's part as writer of both books. Last we saw Hawkeye, he was alone and pissed off at the Avengers, so having him on the other side in this conflict sets up a lot of pathos. And here, Hawkeye fights all-out and DIRTY in order to defeat Iron Man, something fueled not so much by the supposed involvement of Loki but by his own anger of how he perceived the Avengers wronged him.

This one's particularly intriguing because in Hawkeye's brief pre-Avengers published criminal career, he fought Iron Man. First, Hawkeye uses a potent acid arrow to put Iron Man in danger, and then he deflects Iron Man's repulsors to cause a construction site to collapse and endanger some passersby. While Iron Man saves them, Hawkeye gets away with the piece of the Eye!

Englehart may have gone a bit too far having Hawkeye endanger civilians, but I suppose you could argue that Hawkeye knew Iron Man would be able to save everybody. Hawkeye also has always had a stubborn, reckless streak, so you could see him using extreme methods to win a fight he had little chance of winning.

Next, is an intriguing match of Dr. Strange vs. Mantis & Black Panther. This should be a major mismatch, but Englehart makes Mantis and Panther look respectable in defeat. They may have actually gotten the upper hand on Strange if not for some hillbilly shooting at them for trespassing.

But from here the pattern is clear: the Defenders are going to win every battle to serve the larger plot of all the pieces of the Eye being brought together to bring Dormammu's plan to fruition. It's one of the few flaws in the storyline. In retrospect, I can see how Steve found a way to balance things out in the end in a manner I will explain at that point.

At long last, I got to read Avengers 117 again, the same book I'd read so many years ago! It was interesting to see what things I remembered perfectly and others forgotten but remembered with the re-read.

One thing that rung a bell was the opening two pages featuring Dormammu and Loki who conveniently summarized the plot and mesmerized younger me, particularly by making me wonder if the flaming head guy was somehow the Human torch!

Then, we go right into the first bout of the issue between Swordsman and Valkrie. It was interesting to re-read this portion and recall it as I did so because I'd forgotten this aspect of the issue. But as I read this issue, it all came back to me! It was a weird moment to realize that I'd actually read an adventure featuring the Swordsman before his death. It went a long way to explain why I'd always been kind of fascinated with him, knowing now that somewhere deep in my consciousness was the memory of this great battle with the chick with the metal bra!

As I read further, I remembered that in my child mind, I feared for the Swordsman's safety after that part of the story was over. I probably glossed over the fact that we see the Valkyrie make sure he gets medical attention. I think emotionally, I thought the Swordsman may have died in that battle. I think I definitely saw the Defender characters as the bad guys at the time.

Beyond that, it's interesting to me that Swordy killed the Nazi guy who shot him. No one can really blame him for doing it, but being that super-heroes--and Avengers--didn't kill, it's interesting that there were no apparent repercussions for his actions or even any subsequent mention of it that I know of.

The issue concludes with Cap vs. Namor. I remembered this part of the issue pretty well. Not the blow-by-blow, but certainly the gist of it. One thing I definitely remembered was Sunfire's appearance and intervention. When I eventually got into the X-Men, I clearly remembered Sunfire and the haughtiness in Giant-Size 1 being consistent from his appearance here.

I like how the fight defies expectations by having Cap and Namor put there heads together and realize that they smelled a rat in all of this. Considering the story still had one bout to go and was just over halfway done, I like that Englehart had his heroes start to suss things out and work together. It especially makes sense here given the pair's established history together in WW2. Englehart again shows he's a smart writer who considers believability in his plot and characters.

I must say that Bob Brown and Sal Buscema really knocked themselves out in their respective Avengers and Defenders chapters. Their storytelling is rock-solid and dynamic, delivering this big story with all of their considerable skills. I don't know if it's the nostalgia, but Brown particularly knocks himself out on 117! It's just so beautiful and perfectly choreographed that I can see how the skillful work he did made such an impression even on the young version of me who was still in elementary school. What an absolute treat to rediscover this story and have it not only meet, but exceed my expectations!

Well, here's another long review--gotta conclude the Masterwork write-up next time!

Bravo, Lardy! Freaking awesome review of the first three-fourths of the original superhero crossover event, and one of my favorite events ever. In fact, it's probably my third favorite event of all time, behind only X-Cutioner's Song at #2 and Operation Galactic Storm at #1.

I can't really add anything, except to say I was grinning and nodding in agreement throughout my read of your review. Can't wait for the final installment.

Yeah, Fickles....I can't express ENOUGH how terrifically executed this crossover was! Yes, I know it helped that we only had one writer for the whole shebang and that that factor is invaluable, but even in similar instances, it's rare to see such amazing execution. Sal and Bob's styles complemented each other's very well without either aping the other. To me, this innovator of inter-title, multiple month events is the standard that all others should be judged by. The plot is rock-solid and flows so perfectly from what both titles (I'm presuming here on the Defenders part since I haven't read that title's lead-ins yet) had been doing up until that point. In many other cases one title dictates the storyline and the other is dragged in unnaturally. Not so the case here. I wish all crossovers could be this great!

They sure don't make 'em like they used to.

Marvel Masterworks: Avengers Vol. 12 (collects Avengers 112-119 & Defenders 8-11)

Review Part Three: Avengers/Defenders War (chapters 9-12) + Avengers 119


So it all comes together in Defenders #10 as we have the final bout in the first half of the issue and both teams finally uniting in the second half.

The final bout is easily the most awaited by most fans, I'd wager, as Thor takes on the Hulk! The two meet before getting the word from Cap and Namor that something screwy is going on, and before long it's apparent that these titans are pretty evenly matched. there are some great moments, like hulk spinning Thor into the ground like a screw and Hulk trying to catch Thor's hammer and not understanding why it throws him to the ground and can't lift it. Finally, the two end up in a stand-off clench that they are described as holding for over an hour....before the arrival of the rest of the Avengers and Defenders breaks it up! We'll never know which one would prevail...

Flashback to how the two teams finally got together as Cap and Namor arrived with the other Avengers at Strange's Sanctum, and both sides hash things out. I like that Englehart lingers on this for a few pages, especially a great dialogue-less splash page that pairs all the characters that had fought each other in the bouts. Their body language says a lot about how they are resolving their differences.

Except Hawkeye, of course! On the next page he takes some shots at his fellow Avengers, especially the Swordsman. Good ol' Hawkeye--still mad as hell and still a bit of a wanker to cover all of his own problems!

So they rush to Thor and Hulk and explain what's going on, Strange figuring out Dormammu's involvement in the process. Unfortunately, they brought all of the pieces of the Evil Eye, and Dormammu snatches them, puts them together and starts merging his dimension with ours-with hellish results!

So this leads to the big climax against Dormammu in Avengers #118. We see ordinary people turning into monsters and familiar cityscapes becoming smoldering fire and brimstone. Nick Fury and SHIELD show up, so our heroes can get to the core of the problem and go to Dormammu's dimension. Just to make sure everyone knows this is a cosmic event, the watcher shows up! Then our heroes have to fight thru Mindless Ones just to get to the real baddies.

There's a one-page montage that made me think of Cobie. It features various Marvel characters reacting to the Dark Dimension incursion. In addition to likelies such as Spidey and the FF, we see such offbeat characters as Dr. Doom, Dracula, Thanos and Man-Thing. LOVE it!

So the heroes finally reach Dormammu and Loki (who is captive because his treachery was discovered), Dormammu takes out all of the Defenders in one blast. At first, I was a little pissed by this move on Englehart's part, but as I mentioned in the last review, I think he did this to kind of balance the scales for the Defenders winning all of the bouts that had a winner. Plus, the Defenders would have the epilogue in Defenders 11 all to themselves, so there's a sense of balance overall.

Unfortunately, all but one of the Avengers fall very quickly (including Vizh, who is strangely frozen with fear when entrapped by quicksand--which lays the seeds for more to come with him later)except for the Scarlet Witch! With a little timely help from Loki, it's Wanda who saves the day and causes the Evil Eye to backfire on Dormammu, saving the day in the proverbial nick.

I've heard a lot about Englehart turning Wanda into a powerful Avenger, but up until this moment, she'd pretty much been a doormat under his pen, always getting felled by stray blasts, playing damsel in distress and even getting pimp-slapped every once in a while. So I liked that she finally gets a moment here and delivers the final blow against a worldbeater like Dormammu.

So we end on what is actually the epilogue to the whole thing in Defenders #11. Though billed as "Part 12" of the War, the teams part ways on the second page (after Strange cats a spell to undo all the damage to Earth, erasing everyone but the Avengers' memory of the Defenders in the process, to keep their existence secret) and what remains is for the Defenders to finish what they started and rescue the Black Knight.

Mystic shenanigans send the Defenders back to the Crusades where the Black Knight's soul has been drawn to fight Modred. It's all actually kind of confusing, being as a footnote says this situation was set up in Marvel Super heroes #17. Black Knight summarizes it, but it's not clear whether he's in his own body or an ancestor's body or something else entirely. (In the end, he decides to stay in the era, and though this isn't made explicit, I THINK his body's still turned to stone in present day?) So the Defenders fight some goofy gnome-trolls who are somehow able to give the likes of Hulk and Silver Surfer more than they can handle....right.

So if it sounds like Defenders 11 is a bit of a let-down, I'd say it definitely is. It's really mislabeled as an essential part of the War and could've been skipped over entirely as a chapter in the larger epic. It's definitely an epilogue or follow-up of sorts to the roots of the festivities, but the previous chapter was the true climax. It's a decent adventure, though a little goofy, and we at least know the Black Knight's status and where the Evil Eye ends up.

More interestingly, the last page makes it look like a new Defenders is on the horizon, as Namor, Hulk, Surfer and Hawkeye all apparently depart the team, leaving only Strange and Valkyrie. I'll be curious to read further eventually in my Defenders Masterworks to see what happens next with the group.

The Masterworks ends with Avengers 119. We get to see some more follow-up to the War as the Avengers figure out what to do with Loki, who's been driven insane (but no longer blind) by the Evil Eye's backfire.

Meanwhile, they've been invited to a Halloween festival in Rutland. Going by some references throughout this Masterwork, it's apparently become somewhat of a tradition for various Marvel series to visit this festival yearly and have some significant adventures. (I'm assuming this is/was a RL thing like Mardi Gras? Never heard of it!) Turns out, the Collector has used the festival to trap the Avengers and "collect" them, oddly enough.

The story is fairly fun but mostly forgettable. The best parts are the quieter scenes between Vizh & Wanda and Swordy & Mantis. Developing those pairings and adding complications will be a big part of what Englehart will do over the next couple of years, so it's good to see the seeds here. The end is interesting as Loki is left to "pass the remainder of his days" in an isolated cabin near Rutland. I wonder how long that lasted? Not long, I'd wager.

Again, Brown and Sal Buscema do a fine job in these stories, particularly the issues that are direct continuations of the War. Sal's epilogue is more of a mixed bag but still pretty good overall. Brown's issue 119 is a bit below par because it's inked by Don Heck. Heck really overpowers Brown's style with his own to the point where it looks more like Heck's work overall. Heck has a really thick line, and it's definitely not among my favorite Avengers styles so far. But overall, the art was outstanding in this Masterworks. Sal and Bob really delivered--though my soft spot will always be for Brown's work on 117 (see last review) above all else!

Wanda's moment of glory at the climax of the Avengers/Defenders War is definitely where she comes into her own, but while Lardy makes valid points about Englehart's portrayals of her in previous issues, I still think that he set out from the very beginning to make her stronger, otherwise, she wouldn't have had the splash page of Englehart's very first issue all to herself. But I also think it had to be a gradual thing. If she had suddenly been at the level she was at the climax of the Avengers/Defenders War, it wouldn't have been convincing IMO. And there's LOTS more evolution to come.

The Rutland superhero Halloween celebration was indeed a RL tradition, though Cobie probably knows more about it than I do.

Regarding Don Heck's inks, I never liked his style of inking. As Lardy said, it was too thick-lined. I would also say it was angular and fragmented. And, unfortunately, it wouldn't be the last Englehart issue to be badly inked by Heck.

Yeah, I didn't mean that comment as harshly as it may have looked. From the start Englehart definitely took a shine to her (and even mentioned her in his Masterworks introductions as being a personal project when he came on). And he immediately gives her some depth and dimensions, giving her positive and negative moments. But it was nice to see her being much more than a doormat at the climax of a huge storyline to the point where she delivered the decisive blow. It felt good to finally see it!

Thanks for clarifying that, Lardy. And, yes, it sure did feel good.

Lots of great comments going on this thread, and I’m loving the reviews Lardy! Your review of the Avengers / Defenders War was so enthralling that suddenly I’m feeling an urge to reread it myself. (Note – while I’ve read the Avengers only issues a few times, I’ve only ever once read the whole thing in the right order, and that was when I was about 13 years old. I don’t really remember it all that well).

Sal Buscema has always been a favorite of mine (as any true Spidey fan should say), but I’m super curious about Bob Brown’s artwork given your high praise.

The one-page montage in the finale to the War which made you think of me is a page I can clearly depict in my mind as its exactly the kind of thing I love about comics of that magnitude. I clearly remember first seeing that and being totally perplexed by Dracula’s inclusion, as I at that time never even heard of Tomb of Dracula.



I love this statement and agree with it. Marvel set out to make a memorable event and exceeded everyone’s expectations—even when reading these issues decades later. And you hit right on a few reasons why: one writer with probably almost no editorially involvement, with two steller artists doing their sections allowed for a coherent story to be told from start to finish. Equally as important is Steve took all the prior happenings in the MU and the characters various odd relationships with each other to shape the way they interacted at the beginning of the story—AND THEN, was smart enough to allow them to adjust their perspectives as the story went on, so it made sense and logically flowed from one part to the next. It’s a masterful use of pacing.



Steve’s treatment of Wanda is perhaps the major highlight of his entire run. He really took special care with her, and unfortunately so many later writers would get her all wrong. I wish Wanda got the same treatment Bob Harras gave so many others in the 90’s but instead she just kind of lingered in WCA. While not as criminal as her treatment by some, other writers haven’t “done her wrong”, many of them simply don’t know what to do with her at all, so she kind of just lingers along.



That’s a great question, and honestly, I don’t know. I’m not sure how fandom would have responded to that issue in particular, though from what I understand, the Englehart era in general was a big success for Marvel. While DC was still struggling with superhero sales in the mid-70’s, Marvel was really successful with its core superhero books, especially the superhero teams. By the time Avengers #113 rolled around though, there had been quite a few shocking things depicted in Marvel comics in the last few years, so I’m not sure it would have been anything too jarring. You had Conan slicing people down, Buscema’s Thor smashing monsters and giants to death, Dracula killing people and calling Blade the “n-word”, the aforementioned Harry Osborn drug issues but even more, the full blown acid overdose in the Death of Gwen Stacy four years later, and a whole other bunch of pretty serious things. Comics in general were trending towards more realistic and violent things happening, albeit without the needless blood & gore that the next few decades loved.

FYI, if anyone is interested, my Dad stopped collecting comics sometime around 1970 or 1971. So he was long gone by now. He would resume collecting again sometime in 1980-81, and of course, the first thing he would do is collect all the old Marvel titles from the Silver Age. The Avengers was one of those series that had huge gaps in it from the whole seventies, which I helped him fill during my teenage years. While we had the Avengers / Defenders War issues, we didn’t get most of the Celestial Madonna story until I was about 17 or so. The first issue of that saga I ever read was Giant-Sized Avengers #2, which we randomly got and which blew me away; I immediately gave it to my Dad and he loved it, even though he had no clue who Mantis was. He had never known the Swordsman joined the Avengers and died in the 70’s. It was like a whole world opened up to us where we were like “what the heck actually happened during these years?” What a thrill it was to discover a whole hell of a lot did, and they were actually probably the best years the Avengers had.


I never liked Heck as an inker either. As a penciler, I loved his Silver Age Iron Man. But his inking could be too domineering over another penciler.


The Rutland, Vermont thing was started sometime in the early 70’s as a bit of an in-joke between Gerry Conway, Len Wein and Steve Englehart along with Glynis Wein, Len’s then wife who was a letterer at Marvel. (Possibly Marv Wolfman too?). Basically, every year there would be a random issue where a hero would go to Rutland during Halloween and experience the superhero parade. This is based on a real life tradition up there that Conway & company attended and got treated like royalty. Usually, the writers would all be there on-panel during the story. They wrote a whole series of these stories year after year. The parade was started by Tom Fagan, who also appeared in many of these stories.

What is really unique is that they appear in both DC and Marvel comics, and in a sense create the first inter-company ongoing crossover between the two companies. There is at least one issue of Justice League there, and during that issue we find out Felix Faust stole Steve’s car when it went missing in an issue of Thor.

It started as soon as Englehart left. Conway and Shooter regressed her to the level she'd been before Englehart. That's one of the reasons I don't understand why so many people consider Shooter's first run so great. Shooter may have created some great female characters as a teenager writing the Legion, but as a grown-up working for Marvel, he couldn't write female characters convincingly at all.




Yeah, I love the way Harras wrote female characters. I wish Harras could have written Wanda, Monica, Janet, and Jennifer.



I hate to admit this, but, Children's Crusade patchwork or no, I think she's past the point of no return.

I hope you do! I'd LOVE to see what you think on a fresh re-read!



I wouldn't say he's always been a favorite, but I've often admired his work. The stand-outs for me are his run on the latter part of Simonson's Thor run after Walt stopped doing the art and the parts of his Spectacular Spider-Man run with Conway and then DeMatteis. I think particularly that Sal and J.M. did a Spidey run that's so awesome and criminally underlooked.

His earlier art on the Avengers and Defenders here is definitely an eye-opener. I like the softer line he has here compared to his later work. I wouldn't say I prefer it, but it's definitely very pleasing to the eye.



I think I'll think of you from now on every time I see such a montage!



I honestly can't recall the last crossover "event" that was satisfying at all. Well, yeah I can: The Sinestro Corps War. But if you look back at that one, you can see how GL and GLC mostly had their own separate storylines under a unified whole, so there was room for creativity and to tell whole stories under the same umbrella. But they're very rare. Extremely rare, even.

But part of what you said is mirrored by something Englehart said in his intro. While Roy Thomas would start with a plot and add character bits later, Englehart would start with the characters, add plot and then make the two mesh. I think that's a common thread in most comics I admire.

I enjoyed, especially, how Englehart wrote about his journey with Mantis. He said he created her to be one thing, basically as kind of a bimbo to cause tension with the males and the existing relationships, but the character herself had other ideas and caused her to become much more. Yeah, she eventually caused some tension in the Vision/Scarlet Witch relationship anyway, but it came from and went in a much different direction than he'd ever intended because the character demanded it!



It was my luck to first encounter Wanda's character under the more skillful pen as such writers as Roger Stern and Englehart (the latter during his Vision/Scarlet Witch series and then on to WCA). I'd hate to have discovered her during the later eras (especially Bendis).



I may be overstating it, but it certainly struck me that Steve used suicide bombers and had a decent allegory for racism, etc. In his intro, Steve said he's been told he was the first to ever use suicide bombers in comics.



The way I'm discovering them myself these days, I can relate!



Hilarious!

The Tom Fagan guy appeared in 119, btw.

Similarly, recently reading up on Mantis, I discovered that Steve continued Mantis's story at other companies calling her by different names and presumably altering her appearance to avoid legal action. One was in a JLA story, and the other on some indie book he did.

As I'll get to those runs before too terribly long, I'll certainly let you know what I think. It'll be interesting since we differ in our opinions on runs at least as often as we agree!

That we do, Lardy, that we do.

Marvel Masterworks: Avengers Vol. 13 (collects Avengers 120-128, Giant Size Avengers 1, Captain Marvel 33 & Fantastic Four 150)

So here, we enter the next phase of Englehart's run, where for my money, Mantis really emerges front-and-center as the biggest star of the book and (obviously) continues to do so until her storyline is completed in the following set of issues. All this from a character who, as Wanda reminds us at one point (in one of her delightfully catty moments in the volume), wasn't even an Avenger at the time and was allowed to stay because she was the Swordsman's woman. In all, I'd say the character interplay dwarfed these stories overall, which were otherwise pretty average.

We begin with the three-part battle against Zodiac in Avengers 120-122. I think I've read only one other Zodiac story before, one that Englehart himself later did in his run on West Coast Avengers. Prior to that, I only knew them from their interesting and colorful profile in the old Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. Though my memory is fuzzy, I'm pretty sure the later WCA story was superior to this one. I think part of the problem is that the Avengers really seem like they should wipe the floor with Zodiac as presented here. But instead, they struggle, mostly because of a rather unimpressive solar weapon that actually shows up again in the immediate subsequent stories. There are still some good scenes in the struggle, especially the rooftop battle that leaves Mantis in peril in the cliffhanger to 121. Some of the scenes in space are pretty good, too, though I'm not sure that Thor's hammer could have been neutralized the way it was so that it couldn't return to him.

The best part about the story was how it lead into the following 2-parter in issues 123-124 with Libra's claim that he is Mantis's father! I LOVE a good origin story, and we get a pretty interesting one here as Libra tells his part of her backstory. Mantis, however, fights his claims with all her might as she has absolutely no memory of what he claims. So rather than give us all we need to know about Mantis in one big info-dump, Englehart actually builds her mystery up even more and keeps us anticipating how it will all come together. (Having read the Celestial Madonna saga prior to this big reading project, said saga inspiring me to do so, I know it all pays off beautifully!)

These two issues are, hands down, my favorite of this latest Masterworks. It's probably no coincidence that it is the most Mantis-centric story to date in the run. I know you guys claim Wanda's the star of Englehart's run, but it's hard to argue against Mantis as such instead. Maybe I'll think differently once her story ends and Wanda commands more of Englehart's attention. I mean, Mantis has a great scene in 123 where she takes on the Avengers as she lashes out against Libra's claims and pretty much takes all of them out! I think I'm in love! Seriously, it's arguably one of the best scenes any Avenger has ever had when you consider the power levels involved.

The next story is a 2-part crossover between Avengers 125 and Captain Marvel 33. In 125 Thanos' forces are invading Earth with mayhem on their mind. What ensues is a space battle that evokes the great Avengers 96 in the penultimate issue of the Kree/Skrull War storyline. (The captions even reference it!) It's interesting that the Avengers destroy several ships, presumably killing the invaders aboard. It's a pretty healthy space-action issue, though not quite at Neal Adams' level.

The conclusion is clearly Mar-Vell's story, which is appropriate in his own book, but it nonetheless features a prominent role for Mantis while the other Avengers barely cameo. (This certainly does nothing to dissuade my view of her preeminence in this era.) My main impression, seeing Starlin's art for the first time in a while, was how very George Perez-like his style was. However, knowing that Perez didn't develop the style as we know it now until a bit later, I'm left wondering if maybe Perez was influenced by Starlin in his evolution? In any case, like Neal Adams, Starlin was a pioneer ahead of his time. His style back then still looks bold and cutting edge even now.

Next up is Giant Size Avengers 1, which revealed that the Golden Age Whizzer and Miss America.....are Wanda and Pietro's parents! Well, that got overturned later, didn't it? Honestly, I knew this before but this chapter in the Maximoff family story had drifted from my thoughts for a while. Since Roy Thomas wrote this, I can see why he did it. The man loves him some Golden Age characters, so the urge to tie the twins to a pair of them must've been irresistible. I wonder how long this was in Marvel's "bible" or if it was just something Roy came up with. I guess it's kind of a shame the story was eventually undone because it's a pretty charming and well-thought-out idea. Plus, Whizzer comes off very sweet and made a better dad than ol' Magnus. I know that this story had some better sequels later on.

Issue 126 made for a good standalone that pitted the Avengers against Klaw and Solarr. We have a pretty tense scenario where the Avengers in the love quadrangle, plus Black Panther and an outrageously racist diplomat, are held hostage and threatened to start being killed off unless T'Challa abdicates his throne to Klaw. It was pretty well executed, complete with a twist ending. And in the end, T'Challa leaves the group to return to Wakanda, something he's been struggling with during the whole read. Though he had some good moments, it's arguable that Panther was the most neglected member during Englehart's run to this point.

We also get indications that Cap's about to leave as well, as in hindsight he's about to go through his brief run as 'Nomad'. Englehart was currently scripting Cap's book as well, so his comings and goings were well-coordinated. I like the scenes where Englehart has Cap seeking council with Iron Man and Thor about his disillusionment. This is one of the formative moments in what would continue to be the Avengers triumvirate.

Next, we have another crossover, this time between Avengers 127 and FF 150. The occasion is the wedding of Quicksilver and Crystal, and the pathos is the unresolved issues between Wando and Pietro over her relationship with the Vision. Remarkably, the siblings do NOT make up in time for the wedding! I mean, Ultron showing up and riling up the Alpha Primitives didn't help, but Wanda is noticeably absent from all those scenes of well-wishing and adoration when the two lovebirds finally tie the knot! Hell, even Johnny Storm appears happy in the end for Crystal, but any resolution for the mutant siblings is left hanging! Pretty hardcore for an otherwise-happy event!

Finally, we are left with Avengers 128, and Agatha Harkness transitioning directly from being Franklin Richards' nanny to Wanda's trainer in the mystic arts, which was a neat idea. Wanda faces a bad dude named Necrodamus and triumphs in the end, just as Harkness planned.

In the same issue we see Mantis formally dump the Swordsman and pursue the Vision in earnest. Swordy comes off quite the sad sack/sore loser and frankly has a worrisome tantrum where he actually threatens to kill her! Honestly, as needy and borderline psychotic as he comes off, I can't completely blame Mantis for dumping him and seeking greener (and yellower and redder) pastures! As she hits on Vizh, you can actually understand why she's drawn to him, but Vision resists temptation and refuses to cheat on Wanda, even though you could understand it if he had with how flaky Wanda has acted.

Again, even as the main plots vary in their strength, I don't see how anyone could be anything but riveted by the soap opera playing out among those two couples in these stories. You have: Mantis--the sultry, mysterious temptress, Wanda--the catty (sounds better than "Bitchy" ), insecure crusader, Vision--the clueless, innocent philosopher and Swordsman--the bumbling, heart-on-his-sleeve dumpster fire! Like any really good soap, the characterization and progression of the quadrangle are absolutely addicting! I can only imagine that readers at the time had no idea where it would all end up! Truthfully, I kinda wish I didn't, so I could be just as surprised by how things turned out as they were!

The art is a bit inconsistent as Bob Brown and John Buscema tag-team between issues 120 and 126, neither penciling more than 2 consecutive issues. As Fickles mentions, we unfortunately get Don Heck inks on three of those issues. On the plus side, Dave Cockrum returns on inks for issues 124-126 and again shows his talent for embellishing, making those issues the best looking in the set, in my opinion.

Rich Buckler did GS 1, and while I normally dig Rich's stuff, I wasn't too fond of the Kirby riff Rich employed for that story. Rich's own style is excellent and memorable to me, so I don't understand why he felt the need to ape Kirby here. I can only assume it's because the story features Golden Age characters? Rich drew FF 150, as well, and the Kirby influence was still there but much less pronounced--a bit surprising as it would've been more appropriate on the book Kirby defined as much as any other at Marvel.

127-128 feature Sal Buscema, as he would once again become the regular Avengers artist, this time with Joe Staton in a collaboration that would become familiar. They would anchor the book at least through the regular issues of the Celestial Madonna arc and start here in solid fashion.

The last page of 128 teases Kang and an cosmic event that would herald the conclusion of Mantis's long story arc. Reading these stories made me realize that I need to re-read the Celestial Madonna story again (rather than just recap what I read a couple of months ago), so that I can say goodbye to our fair Mantis properly in the sequence it was intended. So....


....to be continued!

Lardy, I'm glad somebody else likes the idea of the two Golden Age heroes as Wanda and Pietro's parents. I think that, in hindsight, the eventual reveal of Magneto as their real father doomed both characters.

I love the Avengers/Captain Marvel crossover. Good point about the fate of Thanos' alien army, though.

I like the first part of the Avengers/FF crossover, but I think the second part is terrible, with Gerry Conway using little Franklin Richards as a deus ex machina just as Steve Englehart was introducing an intriguing new twist on Ultron.

Yeah, hard to argue with that, eh?

Also hard to argue with the "truth". It makes more sense and is less seemingly random than Thomas's idea. Other than their circumstances, there's the physical resemblance between Pietro and Magnus.

Speaking of that, I'm wondering how early Magnus ever appeared without his helmet. I'm pretty sure he did at least as early as the Thomas/Adams X-Men run, if not earlier. I suppose you could explain Magneto's hair as simply being grey, though, as it's arguable he was intended to be an older man, even before Claremont revealed he was a child in a Nazi concentration camp.

For most of their careers, Wanda and Pietro were Avengers characters and will always be associated more as such. So in a way, it worked better for them to have ties to that history, in a sideways sort of way with the Whizzer and Miss America, than it ever did for them to be tied into their brief run as X-Men characters.



Good point, there. Part 2 definitely becomes much more of a FF story. I mean, it's fair as it's their book and a milestone at that. But Ultron, who's always been a prime Avengers villain, was poorly served by Conway's conclusion. And the Franklin deus ex machine literally came out of nowhere. Anyone reading this as I did would be very confused by it, and I doubt regular FF readers were terribly impressed. I'm sure it didn't help that this was a normal-sized issue, and half only half was dedicated to resolving the conflict, while the rest showed the wedding.

I can't guarantee it, but I believe it was during the Thomas/Adams X-Men run. I'll never forget that great part where the scientist in the Savage Land turns out to be Magneto: "Perhaps clothes do make the man."



Yeah, it might have been better executed if they'd had more pages, although even at his best, Conway was never in the same league of writer as Englehart at his best, IMO.

Hey: Did anyone read the "Celestial Quest" mini that Englehart did back circa the early 2000s? Obviously, it is of interest since Steve returned to Mantis in the story. I'd never heard of it until stumbling across its existence recently. Is it vintage Englehart and worth picking up?