Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Re-Reading the Legion: Archives #2

That's one of the many bizarre things about the current version, that they seem to acknowledge the Proty-Garth idea by giving Garth the personality associated with Protyless Garth, but resurrection story is presumably supposed to have happened in this continuity. It really is a complete mess.

Given the variations on a theme Otto Binder practiced before Adventure Comics #247 - including Strange Adventures #60 and #62, and Adventure Comics #187 if he wrote that - and the number of times Hamilton used things like Thar/Tharr, it would be worth the time IMHO, to search Hamilton's older stories for a precursor to this tale.

This revival method might just work with beings of comparable sentience, but the Legionnaires don't realize that yet. So cows and squirrels are out, but Proty, unbeknown to the Legion, is really a being of advanced consciousness, so the revival worked. That's how I'm thinking about it at this point.

Perhaps all Proteans are in love with Saturn Girl. She is their iron goddess and they will gladly sacrifice themselves for her and her happiness.

Yeah, I definitely think that's the best way of understanding it.

As far as Proty's actions, the way I've always interpreted the situation as that the Proteans definitely wanted a plant within the Legion, but that Proty actually threw things off by apparently sacrificing himself, therefore the need to send Proty II as a replacement. It wasn't until alter that the Proteans realized that Proty had survived as a part of new Garth's consciousness.

It's actually an interesting feature of a lot of Golden Age science fiction, which seems to have bled over into comics influenced by that era, that terms like "galaxy", "universe", "constellation", "solar system", etc., all seem to be used kind of randomly and often interchangeably.



As Ex Nihil has pointed out, apparently in the 30th century "Uranus" is at least sometimes known by one of its early alternate names, "Herschel".



Actually, it's not even clear that being sucked out of a spaceship is really scientifically accurate, rather than just a sci fi trope. Similarly, there's no real scientific reason to think people explode when exposed to vacuum, as is also often depicted.

It's all about the rate of change of pressure whether you get sucked out/explode or not. As soon as equilibrium is reached, you won't get pulled any more. And pressure changes tend to cause weak spots to fail more than "whole floors of windows blow out" sort of things.

It's not quite false, but it *is* exaggerated. And not necessarily quite in line with the way it's depicted - if you get sucked out into a vacuum, you're actually slightly better off just exhaling straight away, since the damage caused by you resisting it is greater than if you just let your lungs empty. Less force that way. [Also, vacuum is a brilliant insulator - thermos flasks work using a thin layer of vacuum enclosed within glass - so the problem is keeping spaceships cool. It's next to impossible to freeze if the power goes out - you'd cook first.]

But in the story in question, that other Protean dude said, "Garth you are not. Protean you are. Ever since the resurrection." Also, Ayla says she was never really fooled. This says to me that Garth is gone, baby gone and only Proty is left. It must have been Eltro's/Mon-El's invulnerability that allowed them to share consciousness in one body. In a non-invulnerable being, one life force is traded completely for the other.

But then the story doesn't really work for me, because it does seem to screw up a lot of the character's history in that case, particularly stuff like the Garth/Mekt relationship, which really makes little sense if "Garth" isn't really Garth at all.

Hmmm. Good point.

I always thought that Proty was an amalgam of Garth and Proty.

Because of the lightning or maybe Proty was such an awesome shapeshifter he became mostly Garth, even on the inside.

Imra probably would never be fooled, but in order to fool others, he'd have to assume Garth's personality, voice, etc.

Well, I suppose it works if Proty-Garth genuinely thinks he's all Garth. Sort of like having reverse amnesia - instead of forgetting his own memories, he remembers somebody else's.

I've been thinking about EDE's post. If it's Proty's mind in Garth's body, then wouldn't he still be telepathic? He could've used his telepathy to collect memories of Garth from his family and friends in order to aid his imposture. He would want to mold his personality and behavior to match Garth's as seen thru their eyes. Maybe after a while, he sort of became Garth's personality, personal baggage and all.

Except that his behavior is supposed to be quite different post-Resurrection than pre-Resurrection, which is why SW6 Garth has a much different personality.

It just seems that it makes the most sense if you assume that basically the same thing happens to him as Mon-El. With Mon, after he comes back, he's still in there but the addition of the extra personality makes him more moody and depressive than he was before. With Garth, the effect of the addition of Proty's personality makes him less brash and reckless than he was before the transition, but if Garth is still in there, that explains why he still has all of Garth's emotional commitments, such as wanting to reform his brother and stuff.

I do agree that what the other Protean says seems to completely contradict this, however.

Which could be explained by the Proteans inability to understand the process themselves? Maybe they can't sense Garth telepathically so they don't believe he exists.

Which is ironic because Imra can't either but this makes her love and believe in him.

Btw, in case anyone missed the announcement in the other thread, the reading for tomorrow is actually Jimmy Olsen #72, while Adventure #313 is Friday.

This is a wonderful point of contention. It assumes two things: 1) the Proteans knew what they were talking about, and 2) they were being completely honest.

I don't have the story at hand, but, as I recall, they were trying to convince Garth to do something, correct? Go off with them and search for the Soul of Antares, or such? If so, they may have constructed their argument to best support their claim ("You are not Garth; therefore, you must come with us"). They may even have believed it themselves.

I also love it that we'll never know exactly how much of Garth was Proty. Like a lot of issues in real life (life begins/does not begin at conception, homosexuality is/is not a choice), we are left to interpret the evidence ourselves and come to a conclusion we can live with. It's likely that Garth himself did not fully know where he ended and Proty began.

Maybe they wanted to play up the heroism/self-sacrifice/deep love of Saturn Girl's willingness to sacrifice herself.

On the whole Garth/Proty thing -

Which personality would you rather have in the team book (considering the personalities of the other Legionnaires): the more mature and thoughtful Garth after Proty, or the immature, hotheaded and impulsive SW6 Garth (which was supposed to be Garth's "real" personality)?

It depends entirely on how they are written. I grew up with Garth as the lovable loser who could never quite pull off the leadership thing, so that's the Garth I'm most comfortable with. On the other hand, given the nature of his powers, a "hot-headed" personality sometimes works well, especially on the cartoon series.

The hotheaded cartoon Garth had his good moments. I remember SW6 Garth being a major pain and potential liability because of his lack of maturity.

I know that SW6 Imra made some comment about Garth acting like he used to, but then, later the Timetrapper said that Garth was taken from a slightly earlier time than when he lost his arm. Granted, that's open to interpretation, but the resurrection seems like long before he lost his arm.

A lot of people say that Imra had to have known since she's a telepath, but if she had that oath about not reading other members' minds back then, she may have never read the real Garth's mind until after he became Proty and after they started a relationship, which wasn't really made evident for some time. Maybe #337? or was there an earlier reference?

Ah, the first of the Jimmy Olsen Legion stories. I know the Legion Archives reprint two of them (one here, one in the next), but there's at least one or two more fairly prominent Legion stories in Jimmy's series, plus two important LOSV stories as well. Before we get into the story, some thoughts on Jimmy Olsen, the series, specifically: it is sorely missed.

There is no doubt there are a lot of bad Jimmy Olsen stories; but when you get in there and read them all you'll see there are far more good ones. The key factor is that the series itself knew it was innately silly. It was designed to have heart, be critically important to continuity and offer some high octane science-fiction adventure, but above all else, it was a comedy! And with that sensibility, it was FUN. The industry today lacks so many comedy super-hero stories; for 20+ years, Jimmy Olsen held that role. I think DC, given its penchant for "been there, done that grim and gritty comics" could really use a funny Jimmy Olsen series. Imagine Giff / Dematteas / Maguire on it? Or the guys doing Deadpool? Or Roger Langridge, who does the brilliant Popeye series? It could be brilliant! And a welcome fun part of the Superman series of books. Alas, DC would rather have Superman dealing with rape, doubting his devotion to the USA, crying all the time and whatever other weak stories they've given him these last 10+ years. I'd love a comedic adventure Jimmy Olsen series.

Anyway, back to the story at hand. This marks Jerry Siegel's return to the Legion after what feels like almost a year. He clearly loves the franchise as well.

Jimmy's transformations coming alive is one of those stories that *had to happen*. I like Fat Boy Olsen, and how pissed he looks.

I admit I do like when Superman, and by extension the Legion, play pranks on people. Nowadays people need to lighten up. This story is kind of amusing and charming in that regard.

Proty II is introduced! I wonder...did Jerry already plan for Proty to play the Wolf Man and then when Proty died a few weeks prior this screwed up his story? And therefore, they needed a quick fix so viola, Proty II? I have a feeling that is the case--we got Proty II by accident.

Colossal Boy once again feels older brother-ish / noble here. Between this and sacrificing himself for Ayla, I'm starting to like his Silver Age self!

As Pofobo said, Dirk is contractually obligated to appear in all LSH takes and therefore does so! As does the leading lady herself, Saturn Girl.

The Subs show up for the ceremony! The Legion must be wondering why since they don't know about them yet! Oops? Surely this leads to the Legion discovering them in the next story.

Jimmy's joining, like Pete being able to attend a meeting, gets at the "club feel" of the early Legion as we've discussed at length in the past. (Eryk has a few really good posts on this over the years). In that sense, I enjoy his inclusion as an Honorary Legionnaire.

As with all Jimmy stories, this one is short and sweet, which is appreciated.

Not necessarily, I don't think. Although Proty's "life force" entered Garth's body, he'd've been hampered I think, by the latter's physical brain structure, unlikely wired correctly for telepathic communication.

However, Proty would've had access to Garth's memories in a manner very similar to the storyline currently playing out in Superior Spider-Man.

I'm still of the opinion that Proty was so shocked by the transformation that his own conscious mind was subsumed to that of brain structure and memories he inherited. I'd posit that up until the 5YL timeframe, he thought he actually was Garth, just different somehow, owing to his drifting apparat from pal Sun Biy and closer to Saturn Girl, in terms of temperment.

^ that's how I've always seen it as well.

As do all great comic books.