Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

Genis really should have grown into one of Marvel's greatest heroes and taken his father's place, even exceeding him perhaps. To me, Genis was pretty much THE star of what I thought was an awesome miniseries in Avengers Forever. I know it's hard or even unfair to bind future Avengers writers to events that are shown in a story to be the future, but I really wish this one had come to pass.

I know that the right writer could take over Avengers some day and bring back Genis and make Songbird an Avenger as well, but it's very unlikely with all this damage done. And it's all PAD's fault, I'd say. Yeah, Fabian's the one who killed him, but PAD's the one who poisoned Genis's viability as a truly heroic character. PAD's done a lot more good than bad with characters he's touched, but I'd place this one squarely on the bad side.

In a universe somewhere where Bendis never took over and "disassembled" them and PAD never made Genis crazy, there's an Avengers lineup out there that features Marv, Songbird, a Scarlet Witch who never went crazy and a lot of other favorites we've been missing since the team got all gritty and depressing. I know Bendis's run has been undeniably successful, and it does have it's plusses (like elevating Luke Cage and resurrecting Jessica Drew as a viable character). But the New Avengers are not the Avengers at all. For starters, Wolverine has absolutely no business being there!

So with Blackest Night starting this week and it's focus on dead characters returning on my mind, I thought I might steer the Roundtable toward the topic of death and its obvious impermanence in comics. It seems lately we've had a rash of "resurrected" heroes in our comics, with Kon-El/Superboy, Bart Allen/Kid Flash, Barry Allen/Flash and Steve Rogers/Captain America all coming immediately to mind over the past year.

Barry, in particular, seems the most surprising and unnecessary given the fact he'd been deceased for over two decades and was very effectively replaced by Wally West in the role.

Kon-El and Bart were less surprising, though Kon's death being the exclamation point to a companywide crossover would be moreso than Bart's.

As for Steve Rogers, shit, everyone knew that wasn't going to last long, just as everyone knows that about Bruce Wayne. However, I'm a little surprised at the timing to bring Steve back. Bucky's turn in the red, white & ble seemed to have a lot more gas left in it, so I think Marvel could easily have waited another year or so before flipping that switch.

The larger issue is that death in superhero comics no longer holds any weight at all. It's getting harder and harder to become emotionally invested in the death of a character when we know the odds are against the event holding up. It seems the investment is now more on wondering how long it will be until the character returns more than anything.

I've read that the only deaths that seem to stick are Unlcle Ben's and Gwen Stacy from Spider-man's supporting cast. At the moment I might cautiously add members of the JSA and Titans to that list...though, really, who knows?

For the most part I'm really burned out by the whole thing. I must admit, though, that there have been a few resurrections that have pleased me: Hal Jordan and Ollie Queen primary among those. But there are those that just make me want to scream and tear up comics to vent my frustration: primarily Jean Grey and Norman Osborne.

What do you think about the impermanent nature of death in comics? Are there deaths that have raised your ire for being reversed? Returns that you applauded? How would you like to see deaths handled in the future?

Batman? I thought he was shown to be put back in time, not dead? Did I misunderstand that?

Sales > story

Death can hold weight if it's permanent and dealt with but like any theme, it can become trite and it has. In most cases, I've considered the rebirths a correction, not the problem.

How would a world used to Superman, cope if he were gone? Good story. Nice "elseworlds." Conveniently replace him with 4 new supermans, bad story. Sales gimmick.


Gwen Stacy, done well. This board has discussed before that Legion stories do not spend enough time dealing with the results of disaster and Ferro Lad's death was an opportunity mostly missed that Spiderman didn't. Peter Parker was changed by that death. LSH pretty much went on as if it hadn't happened. One death is known only to a hardcore group of fans and another is comic book canon.


Other deaths I would consider done well and had permanent affects were Supergirl and Flash.

I was thinking about this topic throughout the day, and I can't recall the point at which comic book death became meaningless for me - but it's been a while. It's something of a joke now in the medium, with some characters making comments about how they or someone else came back from the dead.

The problem with eternal life, it has been suggested, is that you wind up with a stagnant society. Old people have to die off to let new ideas take hold, only the impermanence of life lets us appreciate it fully, etc. Refusing to let characters die - major characters, that is - means less room for new faces, an often convoluted and eye-rolling explanation to support the resurrection, and a general inability of the DC and Marvel universes to develop naturally.

I think I would rather miss a character who died, and reread old stories, or have them produce new stories about that character set in the past or elseworlds. Ted Kord's death was well done in that respect, because in the issues leading up to his death, I really came to enjoy the character - then he was gone, and I did feel a bit of a tug on the old heartstrings. (Okay, so he came back in Booster Gold, but I haven't been reading that series, so I don't know if he's really back or if it's a time thing.)

For me, the point at which comic book deaths became meaningless was the resurrection of Jean Grey back in 1984.

That was the rudest awakening for me. Prior to that, I thought comics "meant" something and that the stories carried some weight or significance. I also thought that there was an overall story arc, particularly at Marvel - something akin to a fictionalized history that was meant to take us readers somewhere. I was fully invested in this history: It made the characters and their world all the more real. It showed heroes as being truly heroic when they placed their own lives on the line and, infrequently though it may have happened, when they or their loved ones didn't come back from those sacrifices.

But in one fell swoop, Marvel erased all that. There is no growth in comics because these are fictional, commercial characters meant to sell a product. The stories have no intrinsic value other than "buy the next issue." That was the lesson I learned in 1984.

Oh sure, I denied the lesson. I pretended that it didn't have that much impact - the resurrection had to be a misstep - for a few years. But as time went on and more and more examples of genuine character growth were reversed (anyone remember Wanda and Vision's children?), I came to realize that that was in fact the lesson of Marvel: buy the next issue. Who cares about anything else?

DC's evisceration of the Legion's history during TMK sealed the deal for them, as well.

By then, I was reading a fair amount of comics from so-called independent publishers, and, as the '90s wore on, indies became the bulk of my buying habits. I still checked back in with Marvel and DC from time to time, but found little had changed. The nadir for me came during the much ballyhooed Death of Superman in 1992. The public ate it up. I saw it for what it was: a cheap publicity stunt. I felt like I had at last woken up and seen that the emperor had no clothes, and I was no longer the least bit interested in pretending that he did.

In more recent years, I've watched from the sidelines as Green Lantern died and returned, Green Arrow died and returned, and Bucky - who had long ago died - returned. Now, I simply yawn when I read that Steve Rogers and Barry Allen are back.

The sad part is that some truly wonderful stories have been told regarding characters who have died. The death of Captain America and its aftermath was very well handled. But the inevitable resurrection only cheapens the story and what his friends went through. It means ultimately that there is no growth for these iconic characters.

Perhaps that's as it should be. After all, lack of growth keeps the characters fresh for the next generation of comics readers and film goers (with increasingly greater emphasis on the latter). But it also means that comics have become cheap, shallow, and pointless artifacts in a culture that celebrates celebrity for celebrity's sake.

Sorry if this post comes off as overly bitter. In the end, comics are merely entertainment, and, as long as a good story can be told (as was the case with Bucky's return), then even death can be overridden. But, for the most part, dead characters should stay dead to avoid cheapening the stories and so comics can be taken in new and unexpected directions.

Jean being brought back was definitely a tipping point in the history of this topic, if not the tipping point. The story in which she died had achieved legendary status during what had become one of comics' definitive runs. Claremont and Byrne were spoken of in awe, and all you had to do was point to X-Men #137 (and the entire Dark Phoenix story) and its perfect beauty to illustrate why this was so.

Sure, Jean was hardly the first to have a temporary death. Off the top of my head Professor X had "died" a time or to. But when you're talking about a death that had served as a benchmark in showing how comics had grown up and were capable of delivering real, palpable change to its characters, then we're really entering a different stratosphere.

I was as X-crazy as I could be at the time Jean was brought back, but having such a great story overturned and undermined really gave me pause. I was only about 15 or 16 when X-Factor came out, but I was really hoping the secret fifth female member would turn out to be someone else. I think, in hindsight, this event was the start of my slow decline out of X-craziness. Sure, I soldiered on several more years afterward, but it was around that point that the stories started being more hit-and-miss for me.

Okay, so she's dead again, I guess. But I've no doubt that she'll return very shortly. Marvel (and DC) just won't be able to help itself. And without a doubt, Jean's returned started a crack in the dam that would slowly expand into a gaping hole before eventually there was pretty much no dam at all.

There are two types of death/rebirth scenarios, one in which the character was intended to be dead when the story was written (Jean, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Jason Todd, etc.) and a more recent trend in which the death is planned as a temporary stunt with a return already plotted (Superman's really kicked this off, with Captain America and Batman being more recent examples).

I'm not sure which is worth, to tell you the truth. Is it worse for some comics new guns to come along and decide to undo what are often classic stories? Or is it worse for the money-grabbing conglomerates to reel us in with the illusion of change for the sake of a few extra bucks? Hard to decide. Both are pretty damn despicable.

I suppose I'd have to go with the former, if pressed. Undoing classic stories is the worse thing you can do to a fanbase that is emotionally invested in them. If it was a "good death", or even a phenomenal one, it should be allowed to stand and be sacrosanct. Barry Allen. Jean Grey. Norman Osborn. These are among those that should've been left alone.

But I'm a hypocrite, I suppose, because I approve of some other resurrections:

Hal Jordan. I was okay with it because his death literally came through assassinating his character. Turning Hal into a psychotic killer was just disrespectful.

Ollie Queen. I'm sorry, but dying in a plane explosion because he refused to sever his arm was just lame. And Ollie lends an important, individual voice among the DC pantheon that is just irreplaceable.

Bucky Barnes. Simply put, it was a great story. This was a character that modern readers never really got to know, and his death occurred in flashback, of all things. Basically, the story of his return was much, much better than the story of his death! How often can you say that about a "reborn" character. Actually, I'm more pissed about Steve Rogers' return because it means that Bucky may be shifted out of the limelight than I am about the reversal itself!

I say, if you're a Marvel or DC, simply just find other stories to tell if you can't let your deaths stick. (DC, at least, has shown us since the issue of Final Crisis immediately after the one showing Batman's "death" that Bruce Wayne isn't dead after all. That cheapens the illusion of change currently going on in the Bat-titles, sure, but at least they're upfront about it and not trying to make us think this is anything other than temporary.) And if you do decide to kill someone off, think it through and stick to your guns. Even the most rabid fan has his limits.

There are always exceptions.

Back in the 1980s, Jim Starlin "killed off" the character of Oedi, the cat man, in an issue of Dreadstar. A few issues later, Oedi pops up alive, but it was clear that Starlin intended for that to happen all along. Oedi had faked his death as part of the storyline. It was an original spin on the whole death and resurrection theme.

Huey, I think part of the problem with comics deaths in general is that many of them were intended to be permanent. Jean Grey. Norman Osborne. Bucky Barnes. Barry Allen. Even Hal Jordan probably. But eventually, someone comes along and decides to undo them for the sake of boosting sales and interest in a comic.

I think the underlying problem here is the perception that there's a general lack of imagination and creativity being shown by recycling ideas, and specifically characters. So if Kyle Rayner and Wally West's comics seem to reach a point where sales start lagging, it's time to bring back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen to reignite interest, rather than try to salvage Kyle and Wally with better stories.

This is reflective of the readership, as well. Superhero fans seem to simultaneously want new and bolder stories while also wanting the same old thing they've been reading since they were kids. That's why we're constantly getting the illusion of change (Batman's "death" and replacement by Dick Grayson being the current illusion), followed by the inevitable restoration of the status quo (everyone knows Bruce will be back eventually).

Hell, superheroes don't even typically keep more minor, cosmetic changes (Thor's beard with Simonson, Spidey's black costume, Aquaman's harpoon hand and accompanying costume, even Hal's grey hair on the temples) for any period of time, so how do we expect death to stick?

I think if the Big Two are to evolve and keep strong, they've got to stop using death as a stunt. Either mean it or don't do it in the first place. I'm skeptical that will ever happen. Not as long as readers keep voting favorably with their dollars.

You're right, Lardy, and it goes back to what I said earlier: Comics are a mainstream form of entertainment meant to rake in the bucks, not tell good (or even passable) stories.

This, of course, brings up the question of what exactly is a "good" story. On this thread , I posed the question, What Makes Comics Fun? A related question is, What Makes Comics Stories Good?

I've been bothered by the resurrection of Barry Allen. He died a hero. He was mourned. Wally stepped up and became The Flash. He struggled with the legacy of his fallen uncle/mentor, and emerged a stronger character.

I read Flash comics when I was a kid, but I never really connected to Barry. Then, in my late teens and early twenties, Wally became my Flash. For a while, in the early '90s, it was my favorite book. To me, bringing Barry back is disrespectful to that era.

It seemed to be fans of that era that pretty much badgered the point to bring him back so I don't see the disrespect at least to Flash fans of that era. I do see negatives to the legend.

My impressions of that character's death are different now. When I reread, I'm not sure I'll recall the same emotions I had to first time. I imagine that I will read those scenes with less emotion, if any emotion.

It does cheapen the whole experience for anyone who read the original Barry Allen Flash.

If you come back to life and there's someone who has taken your place, and very nicely too, maybe you should just write your memoirs and set up a superhero academy.

Leaving Barry dead would enhance the connection to the character for me; it's more real if somebody, especially in a dangerous business, dies once in a while. And, like real life, new generations take that place and put their own imprint on the character. It's a natural process.

Which makes me think of something else - have any superheroes died of cancer, or heart attack, or some non-battle related cause? I seem to recall somebody had a brain tumor but don't know who.

FC:
Captain Marvel (Marvel version) died of cancer. He was a fairly tertiary character at the time, 'though.

John Byrne hinted in the first few issues of Alpha Flight that Northstar had AIDS, but the notion got dropped like a hot potato for quite a few years. He wasn't even officially 'outed' until long after Byrne was off the book.

Betsy Ross Banner died of radiation poisoning, as a result of years of exposure to gamma-irradiated freaks, but that was retconned out, apparently.

In Frank Miller's Dark Knight, Alfred dies at the end of a heart attack, but that's kind of Elseworlds-ish, and he was a supporting character, not a superhero.

For me, the dividing line is whether or not the character had a death that was a meaningful part of that character's story (Jean Grey, Captain Marvel, Barry Allen) or was a gimmick meant to enhance *another* character's story or reputation (anyone who died at the hands of Black Adam or Superboy Prime or when Hal Jordan went nuts or in The Bar With No Name at the hands of Scourge, all deaths that were ultimately meaningless to the characters killed, and only meant to highlight the badassness of their killer).

Jean, Barry and Mar-Vell had death scenes that mattered and were specifically crafted. They weren't cannon-fodder, and reversing their deaths is trashing a good story (and all of the good stories that came afterwards, where people like Emma Frost, Wally West or Genis Vell were introduced and slotted into their roles and developed into new, living, breathing characters).

Tara Markov is another character I want to stay dead. I don't care if another earth-manipulator comes along, and I don't care if that earth-manipulator is a clone of Tara Markov, but I want the original Tara Markov to either stay dead, or, if resurrected, to stay true to her characterization, which was of a deeply disturbed psychotic young woman. (While I would prefer her to stay dead, her brother Geo-Force demonstrated in his first appearance the ability to return from the dead when buried in the earth, drawing power from his connection to the earth to come back to life, so it's not *impossible* for his half-sister's earth-connected powerset to include a similar feature.)

Worse, IMO, is when a dead character is brought back and the people who brought them back don't seem to have a brilliant idea of how to immediately use them. A Tara Markov / Terra is back, and has been farting around doing a hell of a lot of not-much, which makes one wonder, why the hell did they bother to bring her back? Why the hell is Hal or Barry back? What vital role are they filling? What niche do they serve?

If something huge, like the return of Hal Jordan or Barry Allen, must occur, there should be a damn Flash series showcasing that return, and the cosmic significance of it, and his relations with his old family, and any issues faced by slotting back into his old role, which has been filled for *decades* by this point.

It shouldn't happen in some other book and then lie around stinking up the place like an abandoned sock. That's just a disservice to the character, to undo the last signifiant appearance of the character (his death) and have nothing planned to one-up that event.

Exactly. Jean Grey was brought back to do nothing more than fill out the X-Factor lineup of original X-Men. I never read any story with her in it after her return that made me say, "wow, I'm so glad they brought her back because this story was great!" Instead, we got to see Scott Summers abandon his wife and child. Marvel had to make his wife a Goblin Queen and his son Cable to eventually gloss over the abandonment. It was a big slap in the face for those of us who grew to care for Madelyn Prior.
And in the end Scott cheats on Jean with Emma Frost just before Jean dies another supposed (but obviously temporary from what I've heard) death. Ugh.

Norman Osborne? Don't get me started! He was brought back as the deus ex machina to bring the mess that was the Clone Saga to a close. Then there was that horrible Gwen Stacy's kids mess. Now, he's the most important figure in the Marvel Universe? Sorry, he's perfect as Spider-man's foil, but he just doesn't work as Marvel's Big Bad. I don't see his gravitas outside of his personal war with Peter Park, which, by the way, ended in Amazing 122!

Hal and Ollie's returns, however, worked really well for me. One literally had his character assassinated, and the other died in a wtf moment airplane explosion. Hal (and Geoff Johns) brought with him a Green Lantern revival like no other that has pretty much made his title the flagship of the DC Universe. Ollie brought back with him a voice with him that was unparalleled in the DCU among so many wooden personalities. The Kevin Smith stories alone made this worthwhile.

The lesson here: if you're gonna erase a good story, make it count and exceed what you're undoing.

Since things are looking bleak for JLA at the moment (Wein's wonderful fill-ins excepted), I thought it would be nice to talk about our favorite JLA stories.

I chose one of fairly recent vintage, from the controversial Joe Kelly era.

I’m generally not bothered by Joe Kelly’s tendency for self-indulgence, partly because his politics are similar to my own, partly because unlike, say, Mark Millar, he means it, maaaaaaan! That said, it is Kelly’s least political, most traditional super-hero story, that is not only my favorite work of his, but my favorite JLA arc of all time.

The Obsidian Age is one of the few super-hero epics to justify its length, what with time travel, mysticism, a near-apocalypse and THREE super-hero teams.

Now, I know what you’re saying: “How is this more than a padded-out revival of the old JLA/JSA/Et Al team-ups?” And the answer is – characterization. Kelly makes full use of the extra space afforded him to achieve the very thing where even some fans of Grant Morrison’s JLA would admit he came up short. Morrison’s run was Gardner Fox on steroids, whereas Kelly’s Obsidian Age (I’ll get to the rest of Kelly’s run shortly) was a shotgun wedding of Steve Engelhart (JLA and Avengers runs!) and the old Challenge of the Super-Friends cartoon. Amidst all the skillfully presented larger-than-life spectacle, there are tons of great character moments, from Batman’s moment of reluctant vulnerability after his team arrives in Atlantis, Nightwing’s bearing of the leadership burden, Manitou’s gradual change of heart...

Ah, yes, Manitou, the 21st Century Apache Chief, complete with “Inukchuk.” So even when Kelly’s not being political, he’s still self-indulgent.

Yes...and?

Self-indulgence is not necessarily bad when writing super-hero comics, especially team books, as long as the writer deeply believes in what he or she is doing. And Kelly...well, like I already said, he means it, maaaaan! Manitou is presented with such conviction that Kelly not only gets away with it, but justifies it! Manitou was not the new Bloodwynd, he could have been the new Firestorm!

The rest of Kelly’s JLA run (also counting JL Elite) is, in my opinion, a collection of diamonds in the rough. Flawed, certainly, but interesting in ways that JLA has never been before Kelly or after Kelly.

But The Obsidian Age? A classic for the ages.

Runners-up would be all of Wein's issues, all of Englehart's issues, Conway's # 200, and Morrison's "Crisis Times Five" arc, the one time I thought that Morrison really hit the bullseye.

I've read almost every JLA story but out of all the comic runs I've done that with, I always consider the time of my life I was reading those stories as a major influence on my reaction at the time for some reason (as opposed to Spider-Man or Thor, where my opinions of certain eras are very similar now to what they were when I was 14).

For example, I don't really have many fond memories of Joe Kelly's run. In fact, I remember wondering why I was even reading it anymore at the time. Which is odd, because I'm actually quite a fan of Joe Kelly's work--specifically his Superman stuff and his recent Spider-Man/independent stuff. I think maybe I don't like his team interactions.

My JLA stories are usually reflective of the eras they were in:

Bronze Age JLA / JSA
I love the JLA / JSA team-ups in the Bronze Age 1970's, much moreso than the original Silver Age ones. I actually think the Silver Age JLA stories by Gardner Fox are the weakest and most formulaic of all of Fox's work. And Fox was definitely a formulaic type of author—Adam Strange and Hawkman showcase that almost as much as the JLA. But with those stories, the mystery and intrigue was part of the reason for checking out the stories in the first place; with the JLA, you’d expect some really cool interactions would take place between these heroes and usually that wasn’t the case. Still, the JLA/JSA team-ups of the Silver Age were better than most JLA stories, but it wasn’t until several years into the title’s existence that things got really awesome. It was a combination of better writing in terms of dialogue and character interaction (the pacing and antagonists were always pretty good) and introduction of “third elements” that made it for me. The best ones IMO of that era were: The Aquarius / Death of Larry Lance story; the Seven Soldiers of Victory and the Freedom Fighters. Most of the other ones were equally as good but those are my three favorites. They are about as perfect as a team-up story could possibly be.

Justice League International
Funny how this has become a controversial era given the characters treatment in recent years, but I still believe there is no denying that the Giffen/DeMatteis/MacGuire run was one of the best JLA eras of all time. My father, a pro-Silver Age reader if there ever was one, has told me many times that this was the best the JLI ever was. I agree it was that good, and in particular it was the first 12 issues that showcase this. Those first 12 issues had something additional the rest of the run did not: balance. It was funny, and it was a buddy comic, but it also had some poignant moments, some incredibly intense and suspenseful moments, and a larger sense of seriousness. Later on, the JLI / JLE would become *too* cute for its own good and I can see why some readers didn’t like this (my father agrees when Beetle started gaining weight, he was long gone as a reader). Giffen did several things really good in addition to what he’s known for: he used global-political conflict as a great background for his stories, much like Ostrander was doing at the time in Firestorm and Suicide Squad; he brought together eras and universes previously never really seen together on a recurring basis and made it seamless (Charlton, Fawcett, Golden Age, Modern, New Gods, new characters, old characters); and he interacted with the rest of the DCU on his terms. It was truly a great era.

Post-Giffen JLA/JLE runs
When I was about 13-14, I began reading comics off the stands rather than just piles of back-issues from the Silver Age and 1970’s. I eventually would start reading every DC and Marvel title, but some of the very first were the JLA and JLE, right after the “Breakdowns” arc ended that era and both runs had great starting points. I still look fondly on those issues and think both titles were very good and very easy to jump into. The JLA had Superman and Dan Jurgens basically coming into Giffen’s old League and restoring some seriousness to it; the JLE brought in several Silver Age Icons like GL (Hal), Flash, Elongated Man, Aquaman, Batman (the first few issues) and then combining them with the heroines of the then recent times, Power Girl, Dr. Light and Crimson Fox. I thought that mix worked wonderfully, a combination of the Iconic Age and the Modern Era. That particular time at DC was incredibly interesting with Eclipso Annuals (which I thought was well done), Hal vs. Guy and Guy going off in another direction (which for a 14 year old, was so exciting), and then Doomsday. It all seemed to just really kick ass…up until Parallax and the end of the JLE’s good stories, a third “Task Force” comic that never worked, and Jurgen’s exit and the JLA becoming a mish-mosh of bad stories, heroes with no purpose and probably the very worst era in JLA history (Overlord? I dare you to suggest otherwise!) But for a brief spell, the Justice League comics really kicked ass! There was also an excellent JSA comic that ran 10 issues during this era and those three (along with my constantly reading Crisis every few months) introduced me to the rest of the DCU whom I didn’t recognize from the Silver Age.

There are more but I’ll stop for now. Great topic, Stealth!

I didn't read the League stories til Morrison restarted the group. I can think of a handful of stories (the cross-over with HAWKMAN & GUY GARDNER:WARROR) prior to that, but nothing to create an opinon.

Morrison's era was part of the big budget, blockbuster, wide-screen, HD movement. It was the DC doing the Ultimates before Millar did the Ultimates, the Authority that begot Elli's Authority. With 6 out of the 7 inital cast members having their own books, it wasn't about character development but action and adventure. Mind you, we got moments that defined/summed up each of our heroes; and when the cast expanded, Grant managed to gives us a peek of The Huntress or Big Barda between all the explosions and lightshows.

Grant did a great job of working within the shared universe that was DC. This was the League for the 90's (at the time, new and full of possibilities.) We saw Wally, Kyle, Connor, and Oracle come into their own as members of the hero community. This wasn't nostalgia, but rather continuing the adventures of DC's heroes, moving them towards the future. (My love of DC's new blood makes me a little biased here I think.)

Waid's run was a nice mix of adventure and psuedo scence. A brief run, it felt more of a placeholder than a true era. The stories were more about the characters' interactions than about their adventures. As charming as it was, it never had the excitement for me that Grant brought previously. Even when Waid filled in for Grant, his stories then seemed more energetic.

Kelly's turn was a good mix of Grant's and Mark's stories. It ran hot and cold for me. I didn't care for the Bruce/Diana suggestion (Wondy gets another new flame,) but it was a sub-plot Kelly handled well and carried for a bit. The Obsidian Age was all kinds of crazy fun, and Trial By Fire was a perfect example of Kelly's run. His single issue stories were a mixed bunch- the Plas/Bats team up was great, the Supes/Luthor parallel of current politics felt hamfisted. His work with Major Disater was fun and interesting (and I wish he got time to play with him more.) Faith was annoying from the start. Kelly's run was enjoyable, but it wasn't memorable.

We'll skip Carlin's every-writer-has-a-League-story fiasco. I truly think that killed the JLA more than any infinite crises could.

The Justice League of America relaunch I've been reading in trade form, so I'm still a bit behind on it. Meltzer was too short to give any real impact, and McDuffie has been too distracted to give any cohesive judgement.

Cobie, I look forward to your thoughts on the Morrison era and beyond, but more importantly, your post has awakened my curiosity enough to give JLI a second chance, even given my general distaste for Giffen. I've requested all four available trades from my library, and I'll share my thoughts on them as I read them. And I hope that maybe my post awakened your curiosity enough to give The Obsidian Age a second chance (glad to hear you like The Obsidian Age, CJ.)

Interestingly enough, as big of a DC guy as I am, I haven't really had the most extensive JLA experience on my resume. The only two eras that I bought the title longterm were during the JLI Giffen/DeMatteis era and the Morrison/Porter run.

Why the JLA hasn't pulled me in consistently is difficult to nail down, but generally (with the above two exceptions) I'd say that JLA often just didn't seem to matter as a title within the larger DCU. It was often just an excuse to put the biggest draws in the DCU into one title with what seemed very little of consequence happening in and of itself. Obviously, there are exceptions, particularly the importance of the JSA crossovers to the DCU's mythology, but there's usually the sense that if you skip JLA you aren't really missing anything. More often than not, what happens in JLA is never even referenced in, say, Batman's books or Superman's books.

If you compare JLA to Marvel's Avengers, I'd say there's a big difference. In my opinion the Avengers has always told stories that mattered and that have become iconic. Obviously, some eras are better regarded than others, but nearly every incarnation has at least yielded something memorable.

I'd say the difference is founded in leeway with character development. Usually, the JLA is stocked with the "Big Guns" who can only be players in the story and can't have really life-changing things happen to them when that's being saved for their own titles.

Avengers at its best mixes their Big Guns with more secondary characters like Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Beast, Wasp, Hank Pym, etc. who can't support their own titles and provide awesome subplot-dovetailing-to-uberplot fodder for character development. Hell, even Thor, Iron Man and Cap tend to have moments and events happen in the Avengers comic that are reflected in their own books or at least enhance their characters with superb roleplaying.

The JLI era got around the usual JLA limitation by predominantly featuring second, third and fourth-tier characters who were late of their own cancelled series or had never had one of their own. Giffen and DeMatteis could do whatever the hell they wanted with them and chose to use that power to work on giving them all distinct personalities. It was a fun, unique experience that had me coming back every month first and foremost to see what these characters would be up to. And when they did use characters like Batman, they used them wisely and gave us priceless moments like his "one punch" of Guy Gardner and his mission "disguised" as Bruce Wayne.

I loved the JLI era a lot and let my then-girlfriend/future-wife borrow the early issues because I knew she would enjoy the humor. I do think it became severely diluted and began to slowly die with Kevin Maguire's departure and the arrival of JLE. Even then, it had its moments and will always be remembered fondly by me.

Morrison fully embraced the Big Guns philosophy and proved that in the hands of a talented enough writer, that approach could definitely work. The Shit was constantly hitting the fan, and Morrison knew how to throw big, impressive threats at these characters, enough to keep readers hanging by the edges of their seats.

Interspersed in Morrison's run were takes on the icons that were very influential. Foremost was Batman as The Man! Never had Batman seemed more badass, even as a normal human among people with godlike powers. For once a take on an icon in the JLA book actually influenced the main books! Of course, many would say that that has been taken too far over the intervening years. But for better or worse, it really mattered, and that was something that JLA rarely did.

As impressive as Morrison was, his stuff did feel distant for me and left me a little cold. There was so much BIG! STORY! going on that I feel Morrison didn't really take the time to emotionally invest readers in the characters. The Tomorrow Woman story was a nice exception, but overall the emotional impact of the adventures was negligible. But the quality of stories was always high and worth your hard-earned money.

I'll post more on JLA soon and highlight some particular stories from other eras and maybe hit these two a little more...

Interesting comparison between JLA and Avengers, Lardy, and, for the most part, I agree, even though I was a huge JLA fan for many years.

There's just something cool about "big guns" like Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Wonder Woman being part of the same organization, where they are peers. This type of relationship is not found in their regular books, where each is a star.

Of course, the JLA was different from most other super-teams in that it was treated like a professional organization and not a club. The Avengers had this distinction as well, but their stories often developed from the personal relationships of the characters (e.g., the Wanda/Vision/Mantis/Swordsman quadrangle); the JLA was strictly professional: Its members kept their private lives out of the book.

There were exceptions of course, such as the Green Arrow/Hawkman feud or the GA/Black Canary romance. If anything, the JLA could have used more of these types of interactions as sometimes the characters did seem too distant, too uninvolved in the stories.

There were also occasional instances in which JLA membership became important in a character's own comic. When Wonder Woman sought to rejoin the JLA, her former teammates monitored her Hercules-like tests in her series. The rarity of such instances, however, furthered the professional attitude of these characters: They were capable, independent heroes. Working together or being influenced by events in the group book called for a special occasion indeed.

My favorite Justice League of America story is called “The Man Who Murdered Santa Claus”. I bought it right before Christmas in 1973 when I was nine years old. It was probably only the second or third JLA issue I ever read. It was the lead story in the first of the 100 page spectacular issues. I remember being out of school for Christmas break and staying with my dad for the day. He was the postmaster of a small rural Missouri town. It was snowing and I was hanging out on a blanket by the radiator in the old one room post office. He gave me some money and I ran across the street to the drug store to purchase the comic, which kept me entertained for the rest of the day.

The story was written by Len Wein and drawn by Dick Dillin. It was fun and horrifying all at the same time. It opened with Superman and Batman getting ready to take a dime store Santa to an orphan’s Christmas party. There was an explosion and the Santa was killed. He died with a key in his hand, wrapped in mistletoe with a note attached that was full of clues. We got glimpses of how the Leauguers were spending Christmas eve – Flash in the future, Elongated Man scuba diving with his wife. Hal Jordan slipped in the shower and knocked himself out as he attempted to answer Superman and Batman’s call. The ring sought out John Stewart to substitute as the Green Lantern for the adventure. This was my first exposure to Stewart and, to this day, my favorite appearance of his.

The clue led the League to St. Louis, where much of the action took place. The team had a conversation on top of the Gateway Arch. That made the story even more relatable to me. St. Louis was only a couple of hours from my home. I had been there and seen the arch on special occasions. It was a thrill thinking that these super heroes were so close to home.

Much of the story focused on Green Arrow and Black Canary trying to teach Red Tornado the meaning of Christmas, and Stewart trying to prove himself to the League. The villain was the Key. It appeared as if everyone was dead but the Phantom Stranger mysteriously appeared, saved the day, and then disappeared. In the epilogue, Black Canary gave Red Tornado a new costume as a Christmas present. Amazing stuff. I was already familiar with Superman and Batman, and I’m sure was drawn to the cover by their images. I finished the story as a fan of Green Arrow, Black Canary, Red Tornado and John Stewart. I was intrigued by this Phantom Stranger guy. That’s what the League has represented to me since then. A place to enjoy a good story with comfortable faces while making new friends along the way.

The fun didn’t stop there, though. The issue also contained a Justice Society reprint. It was my first exposure to them, and that story remains one of my favorite JSA stories. It also reprinted Zatanna’s first guest appearance with the JLA. What a treat. And yet another character that I met for the first time that afternoon and ended up loving for life.

I loved the satellite era - especially when drawn by Perez! JLI was also a lot of fun.

I forgot about this story, but it is a classic! Thanks for the memories, Jerry.

I started reading the JLA a few issues earlier, with # 107--the first half of the JLA/JSA team-up that reintroduced the Freedom Fighters. Like you and the 100-Page Spectacular (# 110, if memory serves), this story introduced me to a plethora of heroes I'd never heard of before: Uncle Sam, the Ray, the Human Bomb (FF), Hourman (JSA), and Red Tornado and Black Canary (JLA), among others. For that reason, it stands out as one of my favorites although, in hindsight, it was probably no better or worse than stories that came before or after. The stories that have been most meaningful to me tend to be stories I read when I was very young, when the whole comics experience was brand new.

Two issues later, Hawkman left--which I regarded as one of the worst comics I ever read at the time. At the age of nine, I was not prepared for real-world changes in comic book heroes. But I think that issue and concurrent events happening in LSH (the wedding of Chuck and Lu, the death of Lyle) helped me understand that even heroes were not above change. (Besides, Hawkman returned a mere eight issues later, in a story far less memorable.)

You know, I just read this story for the first time about three years ago, when I was rereading the late Silver Age / early 1970’s run of JLA. I also thought it was a terrific story, and a great example of a done in one tale that was dynamic, exciting and at moments very poignant. Its Len Wein at his finest. You can basically dig through so many of his 1970’s stories—so often done in one or two-parters, and find some real gems (at DC or Marvel). I also love the use of John Stewart here and think it must have been very exciting to see that when the issue came off the stands. Of course, at this point Green Arrow, Black Canary and Red Tornado were just so engaging to read about. All three were peaking at this point in their publication history from a creative perspective IMO, even though none had their own solo series!

Glad you’re checking out the JLI stories, Stealth! I think you’ll be impressed, at least for the early issues of the run.

As for my opinion of the “JLA” ages, here they are. By this point I was actively reading JLA off the stands along with every other DC comic being published those days, and had been for several years.

The Morrison Era
This was my first exposure to Grant Morrison that caused me to check and see his name (I realized I read some of his more obscure work earlier). It subsequently led me to check out his Doom Patrol, Animal Man, etc. And the reason is, I was completely and utterly blown away by how awesome the Morrison JLA stories were. It was everything that comics were not at that point in time: full-on action and drama, problems on a scale almost incomprehensible and all the major players pitching in. It was kind of like taking a Jack Kirby approach to the traditional JLA-type line-up, but doing so in the modern era and making no apologies for it. And it was awesome. The initial White Martian storyline is one the great JLA storylines of all time, and it has just about every type of great action / suspense / mystery / adventure aspect of comic books in four issues. And it set the stage of what was to come: Morrison taking the over the top science-fiction of the Silver Age or the incredibly dramatic mysteries of the Golden Age and doing them in yet a whole new way. I loved it.

As for the JLAers themselves, it was like a breath of fresh air to see the “Big 7” again, and yet it was the Big 7 of that particular era, including Kyle Rayner (and briefly Conner Hawke). Morrison took the PAD-Aquaman, whom was serious, regal and brooding and firmly entrenched that personality into Aquaman’s role in the JLA. He was no longer a joke here; he was pretty much a potential other leader that could command Superman and Batman. Lardy already mentioned Morrison’s effect on Batman, and it was truly awe-inspiring to behold. I also think Morrison was able to inject more life and personality into Kyle-GL than anyone else in the 90’s; I read every single issue with Kyle as GL and they were often boring and whiney with not much happening; here, Morrison had him doing things. When Morrison later added several others to the mix, it made things even larger scale than before, particularly with Zauriel, Orion and Barda. I also liked that he incorporated Steel as a big gun—Steel being yet another major character of the 1990’s. I also found Huntress’s inclusion interesting, including her dismissal by Batman at the close. And of course, it was truly Grant Morrison who made Plastic Man popular again for the first time since the 1940’s. Plas has become associated with the JLA pretty much as well as any of the Silver Age members (not just Ralph but any of them) and that’s because of Grant. It made me a fan of the character for the first time, even though it was a gradual, begrudging process. Grant also had a great issue with the Atom that I loved.

The major criticism that can be wagered against Morrison is the lack of character moments in the series. That’s understandable to a degree but not quite true. For example, Flash, GL and Aquaman in the Rock of Ages storyline had some subtle character moments throughout, interacting with one another, even if it wasn’t Earth-shattering stuff. If anything, I think Morrison (in his kooky comics as a living breathing history persona) was simply following the Gardner Fox approach to JLA: story over characterization. Just like his X-Men was the polar opposite. After all, there is no middle ground with Grant.

So yeah, I loved it. Is it my favorite era of all time? Well, no, but I wouldn’t complain if he became ongoing writer of JLA again.

The Mark Waid Era
A strange thing happened in the 1990’s/ early part of this decade. Mark Waid, who was basically one of the great writers of the 1990’s and someone whose name on a cover could almost guaranty me reading it right away, became a writer whose work I increasingly began to dislike. And it might have actually happened when he took over JLA. To back up, I’ll reiterate I loved Waid’s stuff, particularly his Flash work. When he stepped in for Grant and did the Adam Strange story in the late teens of JLA, I was floored by how excellent it was. One of the best JLA/Adam Strange stories of all time. He then did a story about numbers and luck, with the Atom guest-starring and it was equally as good. Just damn good comics that made me think between Grant and Waid, the DCU was experiencing a “Great Recovery” after years of annoyingly-bad stories across the board. But when Waid took over for Grant and slimmed the membership back down to tell more personal, character-driven stories…well, it basically was boring.

It wasn’t terrible by any means. But something was lost and it was incredibly noticeable. It had lost the excitement factor; the tension; the edge of your seat feeling. It was like a stud horse going lame. And it was noticeable almost immediately. Kyle became whiney again. Aquaman became a background player. Martian Manhunter became “good ol’ J’onn J’onnz, heart and soul of the JLA…yawn…’scuse me while I’m bored to tears”. And then Batman went from being the most effective and badass hero of them all to being just a plain asshole. Because much like Marvel’s greatest failures of *this* decade, a good writer will do something extreme with a character and another writer will try to follow-up but do it in an even more extreme way—or worse, do it without the original essence used—and it just doesn’t work. And all the good Morrison had done with Batman helped take the “Batman is a guy that doesn’t play with others” and turned it into “Batman is a Dick”. By the time Waid left, all of the hoopla surrounding the JLA was gone; the title had basically been deflated to what it was prior to Morrison.

The Joe Kelly Era
Perhaps I will give this a second try based on comments in this thread. And perhaps because Waid was such a letdown after Morrison, it was unfair to Joe Kelly to step in and in the sense of many readers such as me, be given the responsibility to ‘get this ship back on course’. To be honest, I don’t so much remember the actual stories (other than the bigger ones) but I remember scenes and characters. For example, I think Kelly’s strongest usage was with Plastic Man, and Kelly took what Grant started and made Plas even more endearing, even giving him a cool relationship with Batman that made me wish he could do some Brave and Bold stories with the two. He also did a great job with some other random characters, like Jason Blood, that I thought was cool. But on the other hand, I found Faith extremely annoying and I hated his usage of Green Arrow and Hawkgirl which just rang so false to me. I did, however, also find Manitou Raven to be really interesting, and I really liked Dawn, his wife—and was interested afterwards to see her continue on as Manitou Dawn after Raven’s death. I found the Obsidian Age to be exciting, remember thinking it was dragging on too long. Of course, Kelly was trying to find an exciting and interesting way to restore Aquaman and Atlantis back to life after they so stupidly were destroyed in the awful Our Worlds at War miniseries. Major Disaster coming on was something I initially thought was cool but ultimately began to wonder why he even bothered.

I’m a fan of Joe Kelly’s work, and lately in a big way. I first became so because I thought his run on Action Comics was really ground-breaking at the time, and in fact think Action #775 is probably the best Superman story in the last 20 years. However, his X-Men work was pretty lackluster, and I never read his Deadpool stuff. Cut to the modern era, where I think his Spider-Man stuff is the absolute best Amazing Spider-Man material being produced; and his independent work such as Four Eyes is really unique and well-done. I even met Joe Kelly in San Diego when I was a little too embarrassed to bother him and Caliente decided I was being really geeky and shy and forced me to push my way into the line and say hi, using her charms to distract him to come over and talk to me and then we took a picture together. It was really cool.

But his JLA run never was something that jumped out at me. Then again, maybe that second look is all it will take. Especially without the Waid stuff in my mind beforehand and without me being at college and being all distracted his time.

Post Joe Kelly, every writer has a JLA story
Failure. The Denny O’Neal gorilla story was almost the worst JLA story ever—until the John Byrne Doom Patrol one. Awful. Cancellation was indeed imminent.

Crisis of Conscience
Enter Geoff “don’t let the internet fool you, I’m really as good as people say I am” Johns, and the best JLA story to be published in years. Sure, Identity Crisis created all kinds of terrible retcons in JLA history that were designed to shock and awe you, much like an George Bush era press release (in other words, if you like Identity Crisis, I’m actually comparing you to being one of Dick Cheney’s interns). But Geoff came in and added some characterization; some sense of progress and understanding; dynamics and excitement; Red Tornado being awesome again; Zatanna having a point of view (wow, who’d have thunk it?), and so many other things. Not only did Geoff use the classic line-up, he did it in the vacuum of modern events—and he did it well! Too bad it was just one story-arc and it led into Infinite Crisis and beyond. Because it sure was exciting.