Legion World Forums LEGION COMPANION Dr. Gym'll's Cultural Rarities Lardy's Roundtable (Gym'll's Ed.): Grant Morrison

I think Hector's shining moment was in JSA #50. That was the issue where he defeats Mordru and shows him that someday the Legion is going to kick his @$$ too. On the other hand, that was Obsidian's absolute worst moment. But then the JSA's kids have had some of the worst treatment of any characters in comicdom.

For me, JSA died back when Goyer left the FIRST time (back in JSA #25 - actually, was that Sadowski's last issue too, come to think of it?). The issues afterward degenerated rapidly, and when Goyer apparently returned for Stealing Thunder ( link to a post I made at the time ), it got worse rather than better.

For some bizarre reason, I hung on to #53 in the hope it would get better again, but it never did. That cured me of doing that forever - when a title gets bad these days, I drop it quickly.

Oh, and Kyle Baker's apparently done a Hawkman reboot strip to appear somewhere or other. There's a few preview pages here: http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=536689#Post536689

I love JSA, although "Thy Kingdom Come" storyline nearly did it in (I dropped it for that) and I'm kinda wanting to pass judgment on the current arc to see how the Marvels are treated (huge fan, but HATE the current direction and want DC to correct themselves asap, but not sure if that is happening here or not and my enjoyment of the story depends a lot on where Mary is at the end).

Anyways, there is some confusion as to when this issue takes place. In issue #24 (the most recent one) Billy mentions that Mary disappeared after the war with Darkseid and still has Black Adam's powers in her. Then she shows up in the horribly designed outfit from Final Crisis (not the black one she wore in Countdown or on the cover of #25). So some confusion there.

but the dialogue indicated this actually takes place after Final Crisis.

As for the Hawks, I only read them in JSA and one arc of the Hawkman book. They aren't my favorites but I do like seeing them around (and I don't know why Kendra is in JLA, she never struck me as someone who really made that "next step" but maybe I missed something).

I don't want them to mess with the Hawks anymore because the poor Hawks have been messed up too much already.

As for Hector, yeah, I miss him. The death of Hector was really pointless as his relationship with the others added to the character of Dr. Fate IMO. Still, the way I choose to read his "death" is simply that he and Lyta are taken to another dimension by their son and get to spend the rest of their lives there. Happy and safe and with the son I don't think they ever knew.

DC Editorial's a mess right now. In FC the Hawks definitely bite it, Mr. Terrific vanishes and Mary Marvel is cured of DeSaad's possession (Super Young Team, btw, survive).

In JSA, which specifically mentions it's after the war with Darkseid, the Hawks and Terrific are around and Mary's still in her "Black Mary" persona. sigh.

For the record, Silver Age Katar the space-cop was always my favourite Hawkman (Loved those World's Finest back-ups), but I didn't mind Carter's resurrection in JSA. Until he became Conan the Hawkbarian, that is. Then I was more than ready for Katar to come back.

Anyone else read the "Legend of Hawkman" mini, that was a great depiction of Katar and Shiera that I'd love to see come back.

Yeah, it sounds like DC continuity is more messed up than ever, Rouge.

But back to JSA, they have gotten a lot of things very, very right since the revival began. A few examples:

1) Bringing back Rick Tyler as Hourman and finding a way to bring back Rex as well! This is an example of a JSA child being treated well after Keith Giffen tried to kill him off as a stunt in that Eclipso series (along with several others). And bringing back Rex righted one of the worst wrongs of Zero Hour.

2) Mr. Terrific. I'm so glad someone was paying attention to what Ostrander did with this imaginative take on a new Terrific. As great as it was, Johns and Goyer elevated an obscure character to great heights and produced not just one of the great black characters, but one of the best new characters PERIOD to emerge in the last decade or so! (That stuff in FC better not f*** that up!)

3) The continued survival and central roles of Alan Scott, Ted Grant and Jay Garrick. These three (along with Carter Hall) continue to be strong flag-bearers of the JSA and for DC history.

4) The sense of a huge extended family. It distinguishes the JSA from any other title out there. The JSA look out for each other and the generations of legacy heroes. That's one thing Geoff's early issues of the current series underlined very well. And it's a big reason why I won't be dropping the title when Geoff leaves.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure there're many more if I sit down and think about it.

Your thoughts?

I've loved JSA almost all the way through but it hasn't always been perfect. I do think the book was stronger on a monthly basis when Goyer was co-writing but the quality has remained relatively strong. I think since the current relaunch though, its floundered quite a bit. Particularly this last storyarc.

I thought what Geoff Johns did with Hawkman was nothing short of extraordinary, and it makes me scratch my head to wonder why DC would try to screw that up again.

For whatever reason, I like most versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl (or Hawkwoman). I also like the complexity of their history.

latecomer to the party...

I loved the Tim Truman mini, but would rather have seen that retconned in rather than reintro the Hawks as if they were just coming to Earth. If the ongoing series absolutely had to that, I'd have rather seen either extended flashbacks, or just plain set in the DCU of a few years beforehand.

As it was, both story and art of the ongoing left me cold; I did not care when they killed of Shayera, and the Zero Hour 'merged' Hawkman struck me as particularly lame. Only in recent years has Johns made it work (sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).

If there had to be a third incarnation, I like the idea of Kendra better than a revamped Shayera. If I were re-introing Hawkman in the immediate post-Crisis era, I'd find a way to make continuity between 2 or three eras of Hawks without having to retread old tires, so to speak.

I never liked Hector Hall very much, especially not as Dr. Fate. A second-rate character, in my opinion, who should stay dead.

I've laways loved JSA, but not always what's been done with it. I found the previous JSA series rather lukewarm (I've only read the 1st 2 trades plus #51, the Legion cameo), and it seemed like Just Another SH Book rather than THE Classic Team of All Time.

Kent, that's a fairly small sampling of JSA reading to make that judgement, I think, but I can respect that. I'm guessing that maybe part of your problem with JSA is it's NOT the classic lineup. Most original JSAers are dead. Do you think that played into it at all for you?

Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)

I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.

Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say. Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!

I expect another retcon soon though. The JSA are simply getting too far removed from the current generation to maintain the "Sons and Daughters" aspect of the current heroes, even with the Krakul explanation.

She probably also got a boost from being retconned in as a JLoA founder, too.

I think that's a combination of "no-one liked the original retcon" (that turned BC into her own daughter), JLA wasn't selling very much at the time of the original retcon, and it was done in Secret Origins, IIRC, which wasn't a particularly high-profile series itself. I suspect a lot of people were fooled into thinking that the BC in the JLA had always been a separate character to the JSA BC; and that those who knew otherwise didn't notice ANY of the retcons.

...for about five minutes [Although she appeared beside her daughter in past-set series like JLA:Y1 and JLA Incarnations. Wasn't it James Robinson who tried to retcon her name to "Diana", to distinguish her from the younger "Dinah", or was that just the same sort of carelessness that led to him writing a whole Times Past issue involving "Allen Scott"?]

Incidentally, didn't someone involved say that, if the retcon had been cemented-in in time, she would have been sent into Limbo with most of the JSA shortly after the Crisis?

You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.

I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.

I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.

But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.

After years of discussing it and thinking about it (usually on LW), I think right now I'd be fully in support of something to further distance the Golden Age/JSA (still firmly planted in WWII) from modern times.

I thought the Justice Experience was a great step in that direction. I also thought the idea that certain individuals stayed within their own eras too worked well:
Challengers of the Unknown - 1957-1968 (then travel forward in time)
Blackhawks - 1940 - all the way up through the 1960's
Congo Bill - 1943-1950's, becomes Congorilla in 1959, essentially immortal thereafter.

Meanwhile, certain Golden Agers, like Plastic Man, are naturally immortal.

Now that would be a cool weekly series. Explaining the history of the DCU while applying a 'moving timeline' to the modern era with only the vaguest connections but still keeping a relevant 'passing of the torch'. Yet with a good story not mired in useless minutiae of continuity

The JSAers are the parents of the Infinity generation. Most of them were men. And they had their aging slowed. That I get.

But the wives of the JSAers, the mothers of the Infinitors, must have been in their 40's & 50's to give birth to children younger than me. Ugh!

Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.


1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.

2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.

3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.

4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.


You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.

I'm pretty sure the fandom hounds would be unleashed if a middle generation were ret-conned in. The Justice Experience was a good idea, but they weren't related to anyone. I'd have to say I'd be against this retcon because DC is already drowning in a 50-ft deep retcon pool with like only one arm floatie keeping it above water!

Yeah, I often get those wtf moments when I realize the JSAers kids are pretty much all younger than ME!!! As I see it there are two non-"lost generation" solutions:

1) Portray the JSA's kids as being in their early '40s or so.

or

2) Show a lost "casebook" story (a softer ret-con) which shows how at some point a magic spell or something was put on the classic JSAers that caused both them AND any children they would have to age at a slower rate than the rest of humanity. They aren't immortal or anything, but perhaps their expected lifespan would be maybe 50 years longer than everyone else.

Neither is a perfect solution, but I think they're less intrusive solutions than ret-conning in another generation of characters.

I thought about this long and hard over the Summer, when I was planning my excel spreadsheet multi-tab document “How to Fix the DC Universe?”, which was when I was at my angriest towards the company. Yes, I really did this Then I started to have fun with it and was wondering how to kind of explain away some of this stuff without making it too messy. Honestly, I don’t think that can be done. But what I was considering:

Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects

Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)

1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.

Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues

Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War

Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.

1968 – since this is essentially the end of the Silver Age, a story would be inserted in which the JSA, their children, and specific characters are sent forward in time. Coming in place would be the Justice Experience, the 1970’s Starman, and any other characters that might be applicable specifically to the 1970’s / Bronze Age.

This leaves open the 80’s & 90’s as potential “open eras” for retconned heroes.

We then flash-forward to the ‘moving timeline’, which cannot ever be given specific dates to be tied down to. What we know is:

25 years ago – Superboy

Also during this time the Justice Society appear forward through time. A great story could then explain how they resume their identities, sometime in their 50’s, with their children still toddlers. (thus, in the current time, it explains their ages). I see King Faraday as this immortal super-spy, active since the 1950’s, so maybe he, Plastic Man and a few others still alive from the 1950’s, help get them situated with identities and stuff on the ground they are not superheroes. So they are in retirement essentially again.

12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world

10 years ago – Flash II, Green Lantern II – basically all the characters of the Silver Age now firmly planted within the moving timeline

9 years ago to today – the basic history of the DCU within a 9 year period (or even less, no need to make it a full 9 years). Of course, as the decades expand, cramming all those adventures into this small period presents its own problems, but the readership appears unwilling to move on.

To explain all of this, and why the JSA is moved forward in time presents a few other opportunities: to explain the history of Superboy (Superman when he was a boy), to even show the Challengers of the Unknown in their era (like CJ mentions), and other things. To give a basic timeline, and even showcase some DCUers who have been active since the 1940’s, like Plastic Man.

You could also then have Booster Gold’s comic tie-in, having him visit various time periods and see things in a disjointed way (which is complicated and could be fun).

You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.

You could have a few Legionnaires appearing to create a connection there. Perhaps some moving backwards through time? (That’s always a cool thing). Like Dawnstar, Shady and Wildfire, or whoever.

So you’d have lots of characters scattered throughout time, some meeting at different points, working against a common enemy (Vandal Savage is good but he’s been done to death), so there is a real storyline here. But in the background of this epic storyline the JSA / generational problem is fixed, Superboy is firmly established and characters truly specific to a particularly era are allocated to that era. End it all with a ‘history of the DCU’ index, make it like 80’s pages, charge a crazy $6.99 price since you know people will buy it and essentially make it the new DC bible.

They key would be it needs to be done as a great story first and foremost, and the focus should not be specifically on continuity. Just like Lost uses complex plot-devices, this could easily be done.

This could work, while making for an interesting weekly or maxi-series. One element that should probably need to happen is to establish that as the era of Superman, etc. starts, the JSA are either inactive, retired or missing for some time. There's always been a gap of time between the JSA's era and the JLA's as a way to make the current generation of heroes not seem less special. So if DC were to go with this approach, I'd suggest having the JSA reappear in their time jump a couple of years into the current heroic era. Maybe their kids were more like pre-teens or in their early teens when they reappeared instead of toddlers?

Less the lineup and more the feel and characterization. I expect JSA to be better than the average team-book if I'm going to spend money on it.

My point exactly - it worked better just making it "all along" without the rediculous explanation.

Agreed... technically, by the time that could be enacted, they should be great-grandparents.

JSA is the WW2 'Greatest Geenration."
Their kids should generally be Baby Boomers, mostly born in the 50s, but a few on either side.
The grandkids should be born from the early 1970s all the way though the 1990s, but mostly around the mid-1980s.
A fourth generation should be coming of age nowadays, with a few already well into their 20s or so.

Some 'slipage' is acceptable, of course... espeically if you let a few of the old guard remain magically younger.

I'd hate to see a generation just automatically inserted; I cannot imagine DC handling that well at all. I'd rather see it tried out in an Esleworlds/parallele Earth situation where all DC characters are fit into their proper eras (a Silver Age JLA and Doom Patrol, too), and work out the kinks before imposing it on the 'main' DCU... sort of like how Robinson's "Golden Age" was handled.

Some good ideas, but I hate to see characters subbing for others in past eras just to 'fit.' The WW2 Wonder Woman should be *a* Diana (even if not the curent Diana), not her mother. There should be a WW2 Superman, even if no one but the JSA is allowed to remember him. There should be a Silver Age JLA. The classic Hal/Ollie stories belong in the early 70s, not in the mid-late 90s.

I'd rather see a vaguely "Groundhog Day" scenario where just a few of the heroes realize they and even their supporting casts are not aging, even though decades have been going by. They may craft theories and guesses, but never really know for sure (too much is over-explained in comics already).

My dream scenario for resetting the DC Universe goes something like this:

DC announces that is will cancel all titles (except Action and Detective) in six months. The writers all have a chance to finish up ongoing storylines. Then, one year after the cancellations, the DC Universe will relaunch with all new, starting from scratch, versions of their main franchises - with some new titles and characters added.

In the interim year, DC will publish several ongoing series and mini-series that take place on an alternate Earth – maybe we could call it Earth DC. Earth DC is a real time Earth. It starts with the Justice Society forming in the early 1940’s with the cast as originally presented in All Star Comics. These characters age as normal. This JSA appears in all new adventures, set in the 40’s, in a new All Star Comics. Superman and Batman appear, for the interim year, in Action and Detective adventures set during the World War II era. The Dick Grayson version of Robin is a key character in terms of demarcation of the passing of time. I would introduce him as a ten year old in 1944. Whenever you wonder how old somebody is, your refer back to that reference as an anchor point.

For the interim year, DC will publish a team super-hero series set in each decade up through the present. These series would have some basis in how stories of that era were originally presented, but may have to substitute legacy characters for the Golden Age heroes who aged.

The titles and line-ups:

1950’s – Teen Titans – Starting in 1950 with Robin, Supergirl (blue skirt Kara); Sandy, and Star Spangled Kid. These kids are kind of mentored by the still active JSA. A very young Dinah Lance sometimes accompanies her mother on mentoring duties and serves as a young sidekick and foil to the older Teen Titans.

Super-Heroes are outlawed in the mid 1950’s and most go into seclusion or retirement. Both the JSA and Teen Titans disband. Superman marries Lois and Batman marries Selina during the late 50’s seclusion era.

1960’s – Justice League of America – Nightwing (Dick) and Superwoman (Kara) fill the roles of Batman and Superman in this resurgence of super-heroes. Wonder Woman is Diana from the original JSA. As an Amazon, she does not age. Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (Hal), Flash (Barry), and Aquaman are founders. The team stays together for about 15 years with the new members being added at approximately the rate and times they were in the original series. Green Arrow, Atom, Red Tornado, Elongated Man, Zatana, etc. The Thanagarian Hawks join. The JLA Black Canary is the daughter of the JSA version. The one addition would be Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) who marries Nightwing.

1970’s – Justice League International – As the old League folds, Zatanna forms a new team that includes John Stewart, Jade, Huntress (Helena Wayne), Black Lightning, Red Star and some of the Global Guardian characters.

1980’s – Titans – They start out as teens featuring Flamebird (Jim Grayson, son of Nightwing and Batgirl), Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), Aqualad, Kid Flash (Wally), and Speedy. They are eventually joined by Power Girl (daughter of Superwoman), Lilith, Mal and Karen, Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven.

1990’s – Justice, Inc – A new team that carries over with a few of the Titan members as adults. Power Girl is still around. Aqualad is now Tempest, Speedy is Arsenal. The anchor of the team is Superman II, the son of Clark and Lois. Vixen joins. Green Lantern is now Kyle. They mentor the Young Justice team Tim, Cassie, Bart, and Conner. (Note: Superman II is one of the sons of Lois and Clark – his older brother disappeared mysteriously in the 1960’s).


2000’s – Justice Society International – A legacy team set in modern times. Some of the Young Justice kids grew up. There is new Batman from Argentina. Nightshade (the daughter of Flamebird and Starefire) is a member; One of the powerhouse characters is Indigo, the son of Power Girl and Tempest. A time displaced Nura Nal and Thom Kallor are part of the team. They reveal that the lost son of Superman is in the 31st century serving with the Legion.

The other ongoing series for the interim year would be a title called “Passages”. It would print stories about things like the death of Batman and Superman or the break up of the Justice Society and the Justice League. There would be one shots and some three issues mini series featuring solo adventures of the Earth DC characters set in the appropriate decade.

After the relaunch of the new DC Universe, the top two selling of the Earth DC series would be continued. Earth DC would still be featured in occasional specials for nostalgia buffs as the new DC Universe takes hold.

Have to say I'm not thrilled with this idea, or a general reboot (sorry, but I think the legion showed that reboots are bad).

Mainly I think that it becomes too ridiculous. It reminds me of when they tried to re-into Captain Marvel in the 70's. I appreciate them wanting to keep the WWII stories intact, but having a portion of the town stuck is Suspendium and all that was just, bad, in my opinion. I just don't like that story.

You could explain why the heroes don't age (or age slowly as has already been done) but doing that with their wives and then including their supporting cast is just too much.

I don't know what the solution is, I like the history and generational aspect of the DCU and I do agree that some stories really only work in certain time periods. But for those you just, don't think about it?

I will say this, I think that there are not enough generations between the original JSA'ers and the younguns (esp the surviving Infinators) but there are too many generations after the Silver Agers (or there are about to be, early reports make it look like Damian will be Robin, so that's four Robins (if you don't count Stephanie) for Batman so far).

Anyways, I really don't think there is a good solution for this problem, I think the most important aspect however is for the characters and stories to continue to move forward. I really think the things that kill a book most is when the writers spend too much time explaining what is going on or what has changed rather than moving the stories forward. (I feel that this is really what killed the Legion, not the removal of Superboy, but the constant retconning to try and explain how things had changed).