Legion World Forums LEGION CLUBHOUSE The Legion of Super-Heroes Visionaries of Tomorrow So Shooter WAS in fact fired from legion (Interview)

It seems that Shooter was INDEED fired form Legion and re-hired back when Rich Johnston announced it in his column.

Here's a very interesting interview about Shooter's misadventures with DC and Didio.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18623

Clearly, in the eyes of DC's management, petty interpersonal politics matter more than the quality of their product.

I don't think Mr. Shooter comes across looking good himself.

I've thought the covers were really good... particularly starting this month...

I guess Shooter really is tough to work with... Mort was really hard on him, too, back in the day...

I still wish we could see more SnM after # 50.

He's always been nice to me...

Jim Shooter's never had a reputation for being easy to work with in the first place, and I can understand his bitterness.

At the #47 thread, I mentioned that I don't think the things Shooter said in the article were all that bad. Yeah, many of us are Manapul fans (Fanapuls?)
so it's hard to hear Shooter criticize him, but put yourself in Shooter's position. He's seen scads of artists over the years, of all qualities. He's seen countless production issues. I think he's qualified to say what he's said.

However, he seems to be the first to call himself a complainer. That's not good. I'm surprised they cancel a beloved series just to get rid of the writer. That just doesn't seem true somehow.

I'm not so sure "Super Lad" would have been a great idea. IMHO, Superboy/man Prime was always a crummy character (especially now as a ruthless villain) and just waters down the integrity of the Superman mythos. Extra "Supers" might help sell a few more issues, but in the long run, the Legion would probably suffer script-wise (more than it already has) from a mandated psuedo Superboy.

I'm a little disappointed that Geoff Johns felt the need to off Rond Vidar in Lo3W in favor of a super - Daxamite Sodam Yat? Rond seemed to be the more interesting character with a more interesting history to work upon. With the amazing plethora of characters in the Legion, a dominating Super doesn't have to be necessary.

I thought the same thing. It's not so much he's rude or arrogant or insulting, just unprofessional. But to each his own...

Well, we only have Mr. Shooter's version in this interview. I'm sure Dan Didio would tell a different version.

I agree.

I have mixed feelings about the interview. In some ways, I appreciate Shooter's candor. It provides a revealing insider's glimpse of what may have gone wrong. If I were doing research on the Legion, I might find this information valuable.

On the other hand, his criticisms of his collaborator and the company he worked for come off as self-serving and insensitive. I have no idea how Francis might feel about these comments, but I wouldn't appreciate my weaknesses (real or imagined) being discussed publicly by a collaborator. Shooter comes off as condescending by suggesting that Francis may become one of the greats someday if he fixes the things that Shooter feels are wrong with his art.

Likewise, his suggestion that the company cancelled the series out of spite aimed toward him comes off as petty and arrogant. Shooter may be right (who knows?), but it sounds as if he should be telling these thoughts to a friend (or therapist) instead of a reporter.

Having read it, after reading the response to it, I'm rather surprised by how many *nice* things he has to say about Francis, praising his hard work and his being 'incapable of drawing a dull scene.' He's critical, but, unlike his references to Didio, he actually seems to *like* Francis and think he's headed for great things.

Gosh, am I glad to not see 'Super Lad.'

If they'd somehow found a way to bring in Conner Kent or Laurel Kent as a pre-existing 'House of El' character, or even do something sneaky like bring in a new Sensor Girl who actually *was* a super-senses only Krypto-spawn, I'd be fine with that, because I *like* those pre-established characters, but to just slap an S on some new character and expect the Superfans to roll over and splash out money is disrespectful, IMO.

And now, I kinda get the heavy, heavy use of Ultra Boy. I'll bet biscuits to quatloo that some of those kickass Ultra Boy action scenes were originally written as 'let's establish SuperLad as a kickass new character!' scenes...

I don't know. I think somebody like Shooter who has been in the industry for many decades has the right to say his honest opinion about a relatively new artist. It's not condescending everytime an experienced professional tells somebody young a way to improve his work. This man has lead the Legion, later Marvel Comics, later Valiant to incredible heigths. Maybe his criticism could have been done in a more private way - but when this criticism is intermingled with the accolade of saying FJM can become one of the greats - then I guess this public criticism is not all that bad...

I don't know. I think somebody like Shooter who has been in the industry for many decades has the right to say his honest opinion about a relatively new artist. It's not condescending everytime an experienced professional tells somebody young a way to improve his work. This man has lead the Legion, later Marvel Comics, later Valiant to incredible heigths. Maybe his criticism could have been done in a more private way - but when this criticism is intermingled with the accolade of saying FJM can become one of the greats - then I guess this public criticism is not all that bad... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, but you say that directly to the artist or writer. When you say it in an interview, you make the artist or writer look bad.

At first, reading his comments on FJM, I thought it was insulting. But as I read them more, he was commenting on the work and what he thought would improve the art. That comes from being in the business, from being an editor. His actual words were rather diplomatic and constructive.

That he said them in the interview seemed odd to me.

In isolation the comments seem very harsh and uncaring but coupled with the post Francis (hey, at what point do we get to use first names?) made that showed us the dialogue between him and Shooter in constructing a scene, the comments come to me as very open. I don't see any arrogance, or lack of appreciation for FJM, just as someone wrote, lack of tact, of understanding of the interpretation of the public words by those without intimate knowledge of the relationship between the two artists.

I don't know that I would want my boss being so open even if that openness stated I had the potential to be one of the greats but then, I never will. Manipul's interpretation is the only important one I suppose.

Well he was brought in to improve the book and give the fans a treat for the 50th anni...the sales went down and the fan base didn't exactly unify over the run...I'd say DC gave him more than enough opportunity to fix the book, 13 months is a long time. Plus, DC already has had a point hammered home of what they can do to improve sales.

To say this is entirely DC being unfair with Shooter is not true IMO...other than the fact that they didn't give him a chance to write the Legion that he helped to create in the first place...that's the only thing they did that was unfair to him....but they do that to almost everyone.

While there may be lower selling boooks that DC isn't cancelling, those books tend to have fan bases extremely happy with the book they are getting, plus I've heard they do well in trades and alternative markets...and that is most certainly not the case with the Legion. There are a great number of very vocal fans that are extremely unhappy with this run....unlike say, the group of fans that read Jonah Hex. There's also the fact that some of the lower selling books DC is continuing are attempts to bring back genres that have lost favor with the modern audience, or attract new readers.

With the Legion there is a far better selling alternative available, that seems to be attracting new readers, and generally has the approval of a large segment of fans.

Going back to JS's comments on "Super Lad". This follows broadly what happened in the animated series with Superman X and followed on from Supergirl's tenure in the book. The Con discussions about a Superman/Legion title were driven by DiDio so it is clearly his view that the Legion need an S.

Did Super Lad get dropped because of royalty issues as Shooter interpreted or is it more likely that given the decision to cancel, the introduction of an S character would have been pointless.

It does make me feel a little uneasy about the 'redeem Prime' plot in Lo3W. Is Prime the replacement for Super Lad?

I still think the cancellation is more to do with the outcome of Lo3W than Shooter. That Lo3W is running so late makes the situation look rediculous from the outside but presumably DC weren't aware of the delays when scheduling #50 as the last Shooter issue.

That whole 'Super Lad' thing makes me wonder what a nightmare it must be to work in that environment.

"Write me a treatment for a year and a half or so."

Write, write, write. Plonk.

"Wow! That's a whole lotta stuff. Did I ask for all this stuff? Anyway, rewrite it to center around a new character that we're tentatively calling To Be Announced Lad or Not-Super-Boy."

Rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Plonk.

"Oh, you're done? Crud, I forgot to mention, get rid of any reference to Not-Super-Boy, the Siegel estate's lawyers are all up in my grill about my obviously baiting them by saying 'Superboy' all the time. Also write out Karate Casualty and Triplicate Corpse, 'cause, uh, we're gonna send them to a big, big party, where they will live happily ever after. Really."

click, click, BANG!

I guess that since Francis has posted here, it makes him "one of us."

Yes, I don't believe Shooter meant any harm in his comments, but the issue of tact is a big one. Tact is merely the skill of avoiding giving offense in delicate situations, and few things are more delicate to an artist or writer (or any other creative individual) than public appraisal of his or her work. When such appraisal comes from someone of Shooter's stature or reputation in the industry, it can be magnified for better or worse.

http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18656

In a follow-up story, Shooter has clarified that his comments on Francis sounded harsher than he meant them to, although he didn't precisely retract those comments.

Better stay away from 'Action' and it's current storyline!
There's super Kandorians everywhere!
I wonder if the development in Action is what changed DC's desire for a Legion Super Lad?

And I've always been kind of fond of the 'diluted' Superman world. I just don't believe that less if always more.

I like big guns around because the villians are so huge and many and organized and etc..
If you're going to keep the bad guys small powered or singletons or whatever, a Matter Eater Lad might be okay but a New Gods/Darkseid attack needs everything the heroes can throw!

And I agree with Set, BANG.

Maybe DC should treat the Legion especially like a Vertigo book or an Elseworld Forever thing.
Then, the writers could use whomever they want and not try to blend with the rest of DC.

Poor Shooter and fjm!
This seems like a mess all the way around.

So, in the "never satisfied" category, this time I'll say that Shooter is being too harsh on hisself.

I learn so much about the legion members with the little off-hand comments made by Shooter's characters or as many here have noted, their dorms, their thought balloons...

I will miss not knowing what this story was meant to be but I've enjoyed the story immensely. I have reread each Shooter issue at least three times to see the little clues and characterisations, something I've not done in a long long time. In a few issues he has done what he's done better than any other creator IMO, introduced new characters with staying power.

I think Shooter and Waid are both guilty of dragging things out too long, making things that should have been done in an issue or two go on for issues and issues and issues. I do wonder if it's all about making it fit into collections. I do wonder if TPTB made things go the way they did, interfering with the writers' intentions.

Meanwhile, the art has been very good.

Farewell Threeboot!

It wouldn't surprise me if a Dev-Em shows up in the "New Krypton" story, or if he got shunted into the future as the future Power Boy.