Just a few months away, folks. I'm trying to avoid spoilers and trailers and such, but I thought we could use a thread to speculate and opinionate, especially since thoughts about the movie have been finding their way into the Gymll's All Avengers thread, like this gem from Set:
quote:Originally posted by Set: The Black Widow taking the Wasps place as a founding Avenger, for the movie, mildly annoys me, but it might be amusing if they make a nod to the Russian spy teaming up with Captain America, whom other team-members might expect to have some anachronistic problem with her, only to realize that Russians and Americans were allies, back in Cap's day, and he slept through the entire 'godless communist' Red Scare / Cold War and has no idea why an American wouldn't trust a Russian...
I hope against hope that writer/director Joss Whedon sees that the same way as you, Set. The last thing I want is a Millar-style Cap.
But what do you have against the Black Widow replacing the Wasp as a founding Avenger? Just out of curiosity, do you also have a problem with Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym as a founding Avenger?
Personally, I hope Hank and Janet NEVER end up in ANY Avengers movie. Characters who are defined in the minds of fandom by domestic violence have no place in an all-ages superhero movie IMO. And I'm not saying I don't wish that Hank and Janet were defined by something else, but, unfortunately, that's the way it is.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Speaking for myself alone, I like the originals whenever possible. The comics tell some pretty great stories with many to choose from over the past decades. Hollywood has about a %30 success rate in my mind when they change to much.
But, that's just me. Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Hey, to each their own, Rick. That's what makes the world go 'round.
But I'm cautiously confident in Whedon. I loved his first arc of Astonishing X-Men. The rest of his AXM run, well...there's something to be said for quitting while you're ahead...
Posted by Dev - Em on :
I think it looks fun so far, and I have no problems with the changes in membership. They cannot faithfully translate any comic 100%...just cannot be done, so ass long as the changes are consistent in the movies themselves I'm okay.
Although I hope they expand the members a little in the next one, even if just in cameos.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Dev, I'm hoping for expansion, too. Pietro and Wanda were two of my favorites before they got dragged through the mud. We'll probably see Carol and Simon, too, though I've never cared for them.
Of course, I'd really like to see Patsy and Jennifer and Monica and Hercules and Dane and Crystal and Sersi, but I'm enough of a realist to know that's not likely (although in Jennifer and Monica's case, there's a slender chance.)
Posted by Dev - Em on :
I think that Jennifer being the teams lawyer would be a nice nod to the fans...with hints that there is more to her.
Also, you could have Carol as a SHIELD agent who gets hit with something and become a hero. Easy enough to do, and it would be awesome to see a female character on screen that could go toe to toe with Thor in the sheer power category.
Simon would be easy enough to do visually...at least his original look (not the glowing blue thing.
Dane would be a very easy choice to include...having an archer would mean that having a swordsman on the team would be an easy 'power' as well. Armor, sword, shield and a good brawler attitude.
Patsy would also be an easy one.
Monica would be a more difficult power to do, but having the diversity and just her character alone would be a nice addition.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Just to be clear though, I am thinking Karl Urban in his slightly unshaven mode for Dane. Dude can act. Has the attitude, and can be believable as a brawler that Dane is supposed to be.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I Karl Urban.
Unfortunately, the Judge Dredd franchise has got him sewn up unless the Dredd relaunch is a flop.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
True...but that is my ultimate casting choice for him.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I dunno. I think he might be pretty good in a space opera movie of some type. maybe as a Doctor... OF SPACE!
Posted by Dev - Em on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: I dunno. I think he might be pretty good in a space opera movie of some type. maybe as a Doctor... OF SPACE!
He was perfect in that role as well. Proving that he is a great actor.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: But what do you have against the Black Widow replacing the Wasp as a founding Avenger? Just out of curiosity, do you also have a problem with Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym as a founding Avenger?
Even more so, actually. I like Hank Pym way better than Hawkeye (and I like Hawkeye a lot!).
As for the Wasp, specifically, she added a unique personality and voice to the team, one that cold war spy Natasha really didn't (since much of the team was already terribly serious). If there's only gonna be one female Avenger, I would prefer one that's vivacious and dynamic (and able to stand out in a room with Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk), not one who is by nature quieter and sticks to the shadows. (That being said, this is Joss Whedon, who has made his reputation on butt-kicking female characters like Buffy and River and Echo, so I doubt he'll have 'Tasha being all 'seen not heard' or 'one step behind!')
Both Janet and Wanda, as Avengers, predate the Black Widow by a decade, and, indeed, the Black Widow barely predates Mantis as an Avenger, and Mantis is pretty darn close to the last Avenger I want to see in a movie (right up there with Demolition Man, Starfox and Deathcry).
As for the slap heard 'round the world, Reed has hit Sue and Peter has hit Mary-Jane, and neither of them are defined by that, so I'm not convinced that Hank deserves the level of fan-hate he gets.
It shouldn't have happened, but it did, and it's been dragged out for a decade or so now, while Reed, only a few years ago, sent super-villain 'cape-killers' to arrest his wife, best friend and brother-in-law, and Dan Didio said later of how it would affect his marriage, 'He'll cook her dinner or something and they'll make up, no big deal.'
Pym's as much a 'wife-beater' as Spider-Man is a devil-worshipper for making a deal with the devil to end his marriage.
quote: Personally, I hope Hank and Janet NEVER end up in ANY Avengers movie. Characters who are defined in the minds of fandom by domestic violence have no place in an all-ages superhero movie IMO. And I'm not saying I don't wish that Hank and Janet were defined by something else, but, unfortunately, that's the way it is.
Hank and Jan work fine in the cartoon, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and that's even more of an 'all-ages' sort of deal. As long a narrator doesn't introduce Hank as a wife-beater, there's no reason at all for that to be an issue (or part of whatever continuity the comic or movie is introducing).
Almost *any* comic book character could be unusable, if taken by their worst moment.
Superman shot a porno with Big Barda, back in the day, under the control of an Apocalyptan villain, and he's still usable in kiddie cartoons.
Wolverine murdered a gay superhero (who later got better) and is a deadbeat dad with kids he doesn't even know about, and he's still plastered over lunchboxes and the star of kiddie shows.
Iron Man, oy. Remember that time he beat up half the armored heroes and villains in the world, including an Avenger and a bunch of government agents, and, in the process, killed a Russian superhero by accident? And then lied to the world about Iron Man 'going rogue' to get away with it, and later mindwiped the world to forget about it anyway?
As long as none of that stuff makes it into the movies or cartoons, I think the characters are still usable.
I can't even go to the over-dipped well of blaming the fans for the enduring nature of Hank's fall from grace, because the comic book writers themselves never fail to bring it up, over and over again. The latest issue of Avenger's Academy has Stryker throwing the word 'wife-beater' in his face.
The zombie meme of 'Hank Pym, wife-beater' that somehow failed to stick to Mr. Fantastic or Spider-Man is never gonna die if even the writers who *like* the character keep bringing it back around.
I'm actually conflicted about it. On the one hand, I like that, unlike Peter and Tony and Reed, Hank isn't getting a pass and having his sins swept under the rug and forgotten. It feels more like a hero's journey if the mistakes of one's past are burdens one has to shoulder, and lessons one can never be allowed to forget, rather than the way it normally works in the comics, where the good-guys get to screw up and have any sort of consequences or lasting repercussions conveniently go away.
On the other hand, karmic smackdowns happening so egregiously to Hank, while everyone else skates around him gloating, with equal or worse offenses in their own pasts, seems a bit surreal.
I suppose there's also the question of what *can't* a character (or real person in the real world) 'come back from.' We each draw the line of unforgivable in a different place, I suspect.
In a world full of mind control, evil duplicates, Pym Particle induced psychosis, Mephistophelan deals, blah-blah-blah, it's hard to come up with a baseline for what's out of line. Hank's off-and-on dating a robot with an artificial intelligence based off of the brain patterns of his dead wife, and *that's not even shocking* for the Avengers, since Wanda married a robot with the brain patterns of Simon Williams, and everybody thought it was totally romantic (and politely kept their opinions to themselves when she later went on to date Simon himself)! (Making it seem totally hypocritical that there's been a few side-comments about whether or not it's creepy that Hank and Jocasta are dating...)
[ November 12, 2011, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by Emily Sivana on :
I think they made the right decision in replacing Wasp with Black Widow. I read a Black Widow story when I was child that was so good that I wanted to become a spy. I love the spy genre and while I know most of it is mythical, a good amount of it is rooted in actual espionage.
As for Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym, I think it has to do more with roles within the team than character backstory. If your team has Tony Stark and Bruce Banner on it I think the sciences are already covered.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Well said, Emily. In the unreal world of entertainment, the dirty business of espionage always goes well with a sweet coating of romanticism. Are you, by any chance a fan of the TV show "Alias"?
Set, as is often the case, I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I respect the conviction behind it and the eloquence with which you express it. There is a few places where our minds definitely meet, though:
quote:Originally posted by Set: this is Joss Whedon, who has made his reputation on butt-kicking female characters like Buffy and River and Echo, so I doubt he'll have 'Tasha being all 'seen not heard' or 'one step behind!'
Exactly. And combined with an actress of Scarlett Johansson's caliber, I think a vivid and witty Natasha is at least 99% certain.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I can't even go to the over-dipped well of blaming the fans for the enduring nature of Hank's fall from grace, because the comic book writers themselves never fail to bring it up, over and over again. The latest issue of Avenger's Academy has Stryker throwing the word 'wife-beater' in his face.
The zombie meme of 'Hank Pym, wife-beater' that somehow failed to stick to Mr. Fantastic or Spider-Man is never gonna die if even the writers who *like* the character keep bringing it back around.
I think the writers and editors are ENTIRELY to blame. I won't name names, because I don't want this thread to go off on tangents that would be better suited for the Gymll's forum, but ever since Hank's fall from grace, there have been, on the one hand writers who have tried to "fix" him only to get it terribly, terribly wrong, and, on the other hand, writers who think he's good for nothing but retreads of one of the ugliest, most ill-conceived moments in superhero comics history.
The problem, as I see it, is -- and I hate to admit it, because I *do* like Hank, warts and all -- there's been nothing yet to distinguish him from a million other generic male superheroes than his psychotic episodes, which go all the way back to the late 1960s. It's the proverbial elephant in the room, and writers either ignore it or fixate on it. There have been, as I said before, writers who have tried to take the mess that's been built around him and make him an example of redemption, but their efforts have been cut short either by the premature departures of said writers, the ineptitude of said writers, or editorial interference.
I haven't been following Avengers Academy, so I don't know what tack Christos Gage has been taking, but the example you name of somebody dredging up his past sins yet again in the latest issue is not promising.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I'm actually conflicted about it. On the one hand, I like that, unlike Peter and Tony and Reed, Hank isn't getting a pass and having his sins swept under the rug and forgotten. It feels more like a hero's journey if the mistakes of one's past are burdens one has to shoulder, and lessons one can never be allowed to forget, rather than the way it normally works in the comics, where the good-guys get to screw up and have any sort of consequences or lasting repercussions conveniently go away.
On the other hand, karmic smackdowns happening so egregiously to Hank, while everyone else skates around him gloating, with equal or worse offenses in their own pasts, seems a bit surreal.
Very well put.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I suppose there's also the question of what *can't* a character (or real person in the real world) 'come back from.' We each draw the line of unforgivable in a different place, I suspect.
Yes, and I not only had no problem forgiving Tony Stark for his behavior in the story arc you mentioned...
quote:Originally posted by Set:Iron Man, oy. Remember that time he beat up half the armored heroes and villains in the world, including an Avenger and a bunch of government agents, and, in the process, killed a Russian superhero by accident? And then lied to the world about Iron Man 'going rogue' to get away with it?
...but it is also to me the best and most defining Iron Man story arc. Tony has always had a bit of a pirate in him, and for better or for worse, it's something tangible that DEFINES him. And BTW, I left out the part about the mindwipe because that was the work of another creative team, which pretty much puts what we've been discussing in a nutshell.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: The problem, as I see it, is -- and I hate to admit it, because I *do* like Hank, warts and all -- there's been nothing yet to distinguish him from a million other generic male superheroes than his psychotic episodes, which go all the way back to the late 1960s. It's the proverbial elephant in the room, and writers either ignore it or fixate on it. There have been, as I said before, writers who have tried to take the mess that's been built around him and make him an example of redemption, but their efforts have been cut short either by the premature departures of said writers, the ineptitude of said writers, or editorial interference.
I 100% agree. His biggest problem is that this is his most famous moment.
Reed's had *Galactus* show up at a trial to argue how frikkin' awesome he is despite being kinda/sorta responsible for the Skrull genocide. (Oops, my bad!)
Hank's had a few not entirely terrible moments of coolness, but, for the most part, he's been unfailingly held accountable to that one action, while everybody else gets showered with 'get out of jail free' cards.
When a writer does try to elevate him, as with the terribly over-the-top Scientist Supreme notion, it's just awkward and kind of pathetic, IMO. If the writers would just bloody well drop it and never mention it again, it would be as relevant to the character of Hank Pym as that time that Wolverine stabbed Rachel in the heart because he thought she was being too violent.
quote: I haven't been following Avengers Academy, so I don't know what tack Christos Gage has been taking, but the example you name of somebody dredging up his past sins yet again in the latest issue is not promising.
The character who brought it up was a borderline sociopathic young 'hero' in training who explicitly wants to become an Avenger because it will boost his fame and pave his way to becoming a celebrity (basically, he fancies himself the next Simon Williams, riding Avengers membership straight to Hollywood fame and fortune).
So, while it was annoying to me to see it flung out there, Gage picked the *perfect* character to start slinging mud. It was completely in-character for Stryker to 'go there.'
(And, in that particular scene, Captain America, who was standing next to Pym, leapt to his defense, so it's a far, far cry from the Ultimates version of Hank and Cap...)
quote:but it is also to me the best and most defining Iron Man story arc. Tony has always had a bit of a pirate in him, and for better or for worse, it's something tangible that DEFINES him. And BTW, I left out the part about the mindwipe because that was the work of another creative team, which pretty much puts what we've been discussing in a nutshell.
True, and I looked forward to the fallout of that event, particularly at the end of the Armor Wars, when Tony gave his big speech saying that Iron Man had gone rogue and ducked responsibility, only to bump into Captain America at the mansion, who knew darn well that he had been in the armor the entire time, and there was a brief but tense conversation that implied consequences.
Which, unfortunately, never really happened.
Posted by Emily Sivana on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: Well said, Emily. In the unreal world of entertainment, the dirty business of espionage always goes well with a sweet coating of romanticism. Are you, by any chance a fan of the TV show "Alias"?
I never saw it, but I am aware that real espionage is not as exciting as in the movies and TV. When I wrote a character as a spy for the LMB he was basically a glorified accountant. However, fantasy does have it's place, especially when it comes to the development of new technology. The CIA has took cues from James Bond movies when it comes to technology.
If the movie is successful though, we could see changes in roster in sequels. Since Spider-Man and X-Men are still possessed by other studios until if and when Disney buys back the film rights, we could see a good amount of Avengers getting the spot-light.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Hate to say it, but I think Johhanson is really good at having good boobs. She could easily not have been in IM2 and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. And pretty much anything else I've seen her in could have been done better by other actress'. Sorry, not real impressed by her. the one scene where she stalked out of the room in IM2 was...overwrought? I guess you could say.
Just ain't my thing, I guess.
I would much more have preferred a Janet closer to her origins as a slightly spoiled but sweetly good hearted rich girl along the lines of Hepburn in Bringing Up Baby...but can kick assterisk.
Posted by Set on :
Johanssen is pretty, but not every woman in the world looks hot in a black leather catsuit.
Diana Riggs-as-Emma Peel? Hot.
Michelle Pfieffer-as-Catwoman? Hot.
Kate Beckinsale-in-Underworld? Hot.
Carrie Anne Moss-as-Trinity? Hot.
Scarlet Johanssen-as-Black Widow? Not so much.
What little I've seen of Anne Hathaway-as-Catwoman? Again, not so much.
Scarlet's pretty, but I think she looks better dressed up than slinking around in a catsuit.
Catsuit's ain't for everyone...
Posted by future king on :
Does anyone have a recent clip to share? There certainly seems to be quite a lot of buzz happening around this movie.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Johanssen is pretty, but not every woman in the world looks hot in a black leather catsuit.
Diana Riggs-as-Emma Peel? Hot.
Michelle Pfieffer-as-Catwoman? Hot.
Kate Beckinsale-in-Underworld? Hot.
Carrie Anne Moss-as-Trinity? Hot.
Scarlet Johanssen-as-Black Widow? Not so much.
What little I've seen of Anne Hathaway-as-Catwoman? Again, not so much.
Scarlet's pretty, but I think she looks better dressed up than slinking around in a catsuit.
Catsuit's ain't for everyone...
You forgot to include Lee Meriwether as Catwoman to that list! I'm sure it was just an oversite on your part. Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Julie Newmar!
Posted by future king on :
Agreed, Julie was hot (if a bit strange) as Catwoman. Lee only did that one Batman movie but MAN she left an impression on me!
Let's just say I prefer her posterior in that catsuit over Newmar's! I'm Greek after all ... you understand. Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
It actually makes sense I guess.
Posted by Anita Cocktail on :
Finally saw a nice long preview of it. Lookin' good!
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I'm sure the preview was great, but I avoid previews these days, because they give away too much.
Less than two months to go. Can't wait.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
One week and counting!!!!!!
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Yesterday, me and the whole fam rewatched Captain America and Iron Man 2 as our excitement for the Avengers movie builds.
Posted by KidChaos on :
It was released in Europe already, I guess.
Great reviews, as in being called the best movie of the year so far. That's encouraging!
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I thought it was pretty decent.
Not perfect, but good.
Yeah, some of the jokes fell flat and the aliens were pretty much cyphers (that's not a spoiler -- they appear at the very beginning), and Jeremy Renner lacks the charisma necessary for Hawkeye, but other than that, thumbs up all over.
I've seen reviews complaining that it takes too long to get going. I have no problem with the pace picking up slowly and the set pieces each topping the one before. Straight-ahead non-stop popcorn thrills give me a headache.
I know Scarlett Johansson is not everybody's idea of Natasha, but I think she was brilliant -- witty, classy, and sharp. The boys, except for the aformentioned Renner, were all fine, especially Downey and Ruffalo. And thank God we got Boy Scout Cap instead of Ultimate Cap.
I think Whedon did the very best he could given the tall order he was given. The sky's the limit from this point on, although I had a mixed reaction to the final "stinger" scene...
Click Here For A SpoilerThanos? Please, please, please, God, let the sequel be based on Avengers Annual # 7 and not the Infinity Fricking Gauntlet! Posted by Set on :
Just saw it, and wow, my doubts about Whedon working on this are laid to rest. It was pretty amazing.
Natasha and Clint *could* have come across as completely out of their depth, on a team with Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk, but instead really got to shine. Black Widow's spycraft is awesome to see.
The movie was filled with fun lines, without descending into slapstick. The Hulk was surprisingly funny, at times.
Posted by SharkLad on :
An amazing film... at one point, I thought to myself, "They really pulled it off"... really made me long for a Justice League film...
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Natasha and Clint *could* have come across as completely out of their depth, on a team with Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk, but instead really got to shine. Black Widow's spycraft is awesome to see.
quote:Originally posted by SharkLad: An amazing film... at one point, I thought to myself, "They really pulled it off"
Posted by Set on :
The helicarrier taking off was, for me, the geektech moment that the various Transformers movies failed to ever deliver. Cap handing Fury $10 after was funny, as well.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Agreed on the helicarrier scene.
And I laughed when...
Click Here For A Spoiler...Hulk creamed Loki and said, "Puny god." I hope Hulk has more lines in the sequel. Posted by Quislet, Esq on :
I really liked it too. (being a DC fan, I can't say I loved it ) For me, I did not pick up any plot holes while watching it and there were no times where a character did something only because the plot demanded it. I would definitely recommend seeing this on the big screen.
I really loved Click Here For A SpoilerNatasha's interrogation scenes. I am glad about how they used Black Widow when she easily could have been just the token female.
I am already thinking of seeing it on the big screen one more time.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: And I laughed when...
Click Here For A Spoiler...Hulk creamed Loki and said, "Puny god." I hope Hulk has more lines in the sequel.
Oh, thanks! Everybody in the theatre was laughing too loud after the 'gorilla tests tourister luggage' scene to make out what Hulk said!
Marvel has really set the bar unrealistically high for DC, for when they get around to making a Justice League movie...
Posted by matlock on :
I saw it with my son today, we both really liked it a lot! It wasn't terribly deep but it was really fun all things considered.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Saw it with the kids today and LOVED it! Hell, if Marvel's Avengers (and most other) comics were this fun, I'd be buyin' the HELL outta them!
It's probably the best of all the comic book movie crop at bringing out what is unique about superhero action. It was unreal seeing all those iconic movie characters in one film! The subtle moment after Cap breaks up the Thor/Iron Man fight with the Avengers' Big Three standing in the same frame was a "wow" moment for a classic Avengers fan like myself.
At first blush, I'd still rank it behind Spider-man 2, the Nolan Batman films and possibly the original Superman, but it was a tremendous success for me. Loved how all the Avengers had their share of moments and how Joss Whedon injected his trademark humor to keep things lively.
And, oh yeah, Hulk stole the movie! Posted by Lard Lad on :
P.S. The second secret scene was HILARIOUS!!! Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Lardy's right, the Big Three scene gave me gooseflesh, in a good way.
Posted by Dave Hackett on :
How Kid-friendly is it?
Posted by Quislet, Esq on :
Dave,
I think it is pretty kid friendly. There is a lot of rampaging destruction where if it were real there would be lots of dead people. From what I remember there is only one on-screen death and one scene Click Here For A Spoiler where a guy gets stabbed in the face around his eye. Although you don't actually see the actual penetration part of the stabbing As far a sex goes, there is an inital scene with Black Widow where there is an element of sex. But I would say it was on par with the scene in Superman II where you see Lois & Clark in bed.
Posted by Jerry on :
I hardly ever go see big blockbuster movies on opening weekend, but decided to make an exception for this. I went to the 10:00 a.m matinee, saw it in 3D, and bought an $8.00 Sprite and some Raisinettes. It was a quite the event. It's playing back to back on four screens at the local multiplex. All the shows seem to be selling out or close to it. Lots of people lined up in Marvel tee-shirts, and I saw a few kids toting along Captain America shields and Mighty Thor hammers.
The movie itself was a lot of fun. The casting is just great all around. The effects were top notch. The movie had humor and heart.
[ May 06, 2012, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Took Carol and Sam to see it. I'd give it a solid b. A bit ... soulless.... at times, but then again, it was much better than I thought it would be. The trademark "Hero's fight, then team up" was there, but thats where I got the soulless from. Just didn't get that the "connection" that pulled them together for real was that important to them in their life, ya know.
Entertaining, and I'll buy the video, but I wouldn't go back to the theatre for it.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Dave Hackett: How Kid-friendly is it?
My 9-year-old kept saying, "dad, this is SO awesome!" So I'd say it's pretty friendly for that age and thereabouts.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about secret scene number one (see the spoiler box below for my opinion on it.)
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: I thought it was pretty decent.
Not perfect, but good.
Yeah, some of the jokes fell flat and the aliens were pretty much cyphers (that's not a spoiler -- they appear at the very beginning), and Jeremy Renner lacks the charisma necessary for Hawkeye, but other than that, thumbs up all over.
I've seen reviews complaining that it takes too long to get going. I have no problem with the pace picking up slowly and the set pieces each topping the one before. Straight-ahead non-stop popcorn thrills give me a headache.
I know Scarlett Johansson is not everybody's idea of Natasha, but I think she was brilliant -- witty, classy, and sharp. The boys, except for the aformentioned Renner, were all fine, especially Downey and Ruffalo. And thank God we got Boy Scout Cap instead of Ultimate Cap.
I think Whedon did the very best he could given the tall order he was given. The sky's the limit from this point on, although I had a mixed reaction to the final "stinger" scene...
Click Here For A SpoilerThanos? Please, please, please, God, let the sequel be based on Avengers Annual # 7 and not the Infinity Fricking Gauntlet!
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
So I got a chance to sneak off from work today and go see it (three whole hours of it!). I have to say I really loved it! It was well done on a multitude of levels where I could enjoy it as an adult, and yet it had me totally feeling like a kid again at different places.
I actually thought Whedon paced the film pretty perfectly like Fanfie said, and there was a pretty great balance of character / subtle moments with all-out action to the superhero-ey-ist max. There was also a very great balance of the Avengers themselves with the ground-level characters, and with Loki too.
The acting was absolutely fantastic and really made the whole thing for me. While everyone was pretty great, some real A+’s have to go to:
- Mark Ruffalo, giving probably the best Bruce Banner performance of all time. He basically revitalized the Hulk for me, even more than how well done the Hulk himself was. Which, by the way, he was—the Hulk was the breakout star of the show.
- Scarlet Johansson was actually pretty damn fantastic. Her role was not only strong but filled with subtleties. She made Natasha stand shoulder to shoulder with the big guns, yet her character was never so over the top that she was unrelatable.
- Tom Hiddleston as Loki was also fantastic. He’s a bit overshadowed by the rest of the cast, but its too his credit that ever scene he was in worked for me. If Loki was played by a bad actor, the movie would have bombed. The opposite happened here.
- Robert Downey Jr. continues to be my favorite actor in a superhero role. He’s just fantastic. He’s so good, in fact, that I could watch him eat food all day.
- And Clark Gregg as Agent Coulson was pretty damn terrific! He really was fantastic here, and the character went from being ‘a really awesome kind of favorite’ to a favorite. Plus…fyi big spoiler so don’t ruin it for yourself…
Click Here For A SpoilerI was shocked when he died, even though I should have seen it coming! That could have been a huge cliché but both he and Joss Whedon made it work. Tremendous scene. I wonder how many 9 year olds mourned?
Meanwhile, everyone else was also pretty good. Cap & Thor were also great, Fury was better than I expected to be honest, and Cobie Smoulders (my girl from How I Met Your Mother) is so incredibly beautiful that whenever she appears on screen my heart almost bursts out of my chest. Stellan Skarsgaard was also great in his little role.
My one casting / acting issue would be that we didn’t really get enough Hawkeye scenes to let Jeremy Renner show his stuff. I’m not all that familiar with the actor but I felt he was perhaps a bit limited in his usage here.
I loved the embracement of continuity from the past films as well—referencing Banner becoming the Hulk because they were trying to replicate the super-soldier serum; Cap’s history with the cosmic cube; Jane Foster being protected. And I really loved that Gwenneth Paltrow kindly took the time to play a solid cameo during two parts. That suddenly makes me really like her.
Plus, the movie was loaded with little easter egg subtleties that referenced both the films and the comics. A great one is that when Cap & Iron Man are arguing, and Cap tells Tony that he’s always fighting for no one but himself, Tony throws back in his face that he’s just a science experiment who only gets his heroism “from a bottle”. Fantastic nod to “Demon in a Bottle!” It actually took me a few seconds to realize that! I have a feeling there are a bunch of those moments I’ll get on the second viewing.
I really thought Whedon did a good job. And I’m not really the biggest Whedon fan. But his humor added a nice element to the movie that let viewers know to sit back and enjoy the show. Even Cap had funny moments! He portrayed the Hulk so well that I desperately want a Joss Whedon directed, Mark Ruffalo acted Hulk movie!
As for two after credits scenes:
Click Here For A SpoilerThanos! Yes! I totally did not see that coming!
Click Here For A SpoilerThe second scene was hilarious! Funny and brilliantly done. And yet, without getting too over the top about it—it was so Marvel. Heroes doing regular things, feeling regular exhaustion.
So let’s summarize: Fun. Exciting. Well-acted. Well-directed. Makes me feel like a kid but pleases me as an adult. Pretty damn great if you ask me.
Here’s hoping the next one has Hank & Jan!
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Excellent review, Cobie.
I'd be interested in seeing your thoughts on how they could possibly make Hank & Jan work without falling into the obvious traps; I assume you've read the discussion on that very subject between Set and myself on Page 1 of this thread.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Actually, after thinking about it a bit I think the solution is pretty simple. Namely, keep it simple. The way to approach them is to reflect how they were in their earliest years without getting into all the subsequent ridiculous nonsense that followed them. This is exactly the approach they took with Iron Man in the first film: almost half the movie was based on his 12 page origin; it worked because they kept it simple and stuck to the basics about what made them great.
I'd say with Hank & Jan they should resist the obvious cliches of the bickering yet lovable couple, which has always been a reflection of bad writing. On the more extreme side, forget the abusive shit all together, leaving it for poor writers (and asshole writers with no originality).
I'd say open with the idea of a funny, adventuring partnership that is kind of becoming a couple and therefore you can't help but love: Ant-Man and the Wasp.
As the movie goes on, Hank has his doubts about proving himself, and in the second act, despite Tony & Banner assuring him it's unnecessary, he dabbles with his powers to become Giant Man. It doesn't need to be harped, and can be seen as an awesome development, yet subtly implies the change comes from a bad place. At movies end, Hank has his big moment where he wins his battle by being intelligent and clever--that strength & power are good, but only a shallow thing compared to how you use them. Hank emerges, a competent hero whose self-confidence is firm.
Meanwhile, Janet is the quintessential flighty, wealthy fashionista with a sense of humor, though when the going gets tough we see the real her: smart, courageous and capable. Hank even chastises her for not taking things seriously when she tells him midway through that he doesn't need to enhance his powers. Perhaps Natasha isn't too sure of her because she doesn't take her seriously (and she flirts with Tony, Thor and Cap, the last becoming uncomfortable). But while she is part comedy relief in the beginning, by the films end her arc is completed by showing just how serious she can be when the chips are down--perhaps even saving the day (but at the least showing she is not only smart & brave but a true leader).
Hank & Jan both succeed on their own but lend each other the support to do it. In the end, a nice romantic kiss moment would be quite welcome.
They'd each work best with all the others on screen. The Wasp proving her mettle to Thor and Cap just works for me. Hank thinking up a solution that Tony hadn't considered does too.
And I want Tony to call Hank 'high pockets'.
I heard years ago talk of Eva Longoria and Nathan Fillian in the roles. That would actually have really worked for me.
(You always get me to think out long posts--I love it!)
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I wont say who bought the big one, but I do have to wonder if it was a LMD, since they carefully mentioned it in the movie for no apparent reason.
Posted by Set on :
Re-introducing Hank and Jan for the modern day, I'd at least borrow from Ultimate Jan, that she's got powers innately, not merely as a result of being tinkered on by Hank. (I'm not sure if they can use the word 'mutant,' because of Fox owning the X-Men movie rights, 'though.)
Jan's father could end up hiring grad-student-from-hell Pym to come up with a solution for his daughters tendency to zap people she touches (more elegant than wearing a rubber suit). Pym, having just finished PHDs in entomology, computer networking and particle physics, is intrigued by the offer of having his student loans paid off and Janet's unique condition. And so they meet, and being Pym, his 'cure' involves Pym particles (allowing her to shunt excess energy to wherever the excess mass goes when they shrink), tying their 'origins' together.
.
I think the coolest thing about Ruffalo's Banner is that he was more like the Bill Bixby Banner, a bit jaded with his situation, while the movie Banners have been a bit closer to their origin, and been much less in ownership of their 'condition.' (Son, you got a condition...) I would *not* have liked Banner being portrayed as meek or easily cowed or afraid of 'the Other Guy,' and this interpretation of Banner was neat in that he seemed very aware of how close he was to being a 'person of mass destruction.' Even in the room with Thor, Captain America, Iron Man and surrounded by SHIELD agents, Banner never looked intimidated, and even came across as intimidating, himself.
I like that Whedon used as many characters as he did. Pepper Potts wasn't needed in this movie, and yet her presence was a welcome sight.
I read an interview with the director after Captain America, and he mentioned that the script called for Cap to crack some jokes, but that Chris Evans objected, saying that they were out of character, and that somebody else should crack the jokes while Cap stayed 'the straight man.' When I initially heard how funny this movie was going to be, I was afraid that Cap would be out of character, to 'fit in' with a more Iron Man level of quippyness. (Joss is known for his characters witty banter, after all!) I was happy to see that this was not the case. Cap remained pretty serious, and I'm glad that the 'most be funny because it worked in Iron Man!' mandate didn't get spread out to mangle the characterization of everyone else.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Just got back with the family from seeing this.
Joss Whedon did a great job with this.
Thor coming back to Earth was touched on in an almost throwaway line from Loki.
Mark Ruffalo was brilliant as Banner. Just the right amounts of everything to make his 'revelation' believable. The Hulk was unbelievably fun in this movie. I do really hope they give him a chance at a solo shot with some real villains to smash. A re-imagined U-Foes could be fun...Maybe a Wrecking Crew.
The rest of the cast was great. RDJ continues to chew through any scene that he is in. I really cannot ever see another actor taking over for him eventually.
Like the reveal in the credits as to who was pulling the strings.
Loved the final scene as well. Too funny. Glad they decided to include it.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Re: Hank & Jan, there was a scene I had planned for my now-discounted "Stern-verse" Avengers stories where a super-powerful villain has Hawkeye cornered, and Hank as Giant-Man sneaks up behind the villain and does essentially what you-know-who did to you-know-who-else in one of the most memorable scenes of the Avengers movie (the scene Set referred to earlier in this thread as the gorilla and the luggage scene.)
Posted by Dev - Em on :
I think Dane should be introduced as a SHIELD Agent (ala Widow and Hawkeye). Master of all things knife and sword related.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I'd rather see Dane with an origin more faithful to his comics one. He could still work for SHIELD, but as a timid scientist turned reluctant swashbuckler.
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
I finally saw it last night, and I loved it. My favorite line was Thor's sheepish, "He's adopted."
Only disappointment: I expected that the serpentine thing that was shown in the trailer would be the Midgard Serpent. Turned out it was just one of the alien invader ships.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I skipped the trailers, so I was taken completely by surprise by the serpent-ships. Weirdly enough, they reminded me of Marrina's true form from the opening issues of the Walt Simonson run of the Avengers comic -- an impressive visual to be sure, thanks to John Buscema, but far from one of the high points of nearly 50 years of Avengers mythos.
Eh, probably just a coincidence. Posted by Lard Lad on :
I actually thought the ships were more fish-y than serpent-y! They were a very cool visual!
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
They do have fish heads, that's true...
Click Here For A SpoilerFish heads, fish heads, roly poly fish heads Fish heads, fish heads, eat 'em up, yum Posted by Quislet, Esq on :
I do have a complaint about the Avengers movie. Chris Evans was not shirtless in it. I feel ripped off.
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
Yes, in the movie they were definitely fish-like. Iron Man even made a "Jonah" reference. But you couldn't tell that from the trailer.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
An acquaintance e-mailed something interesting to me. But don't open the spoiler box unless you've seen the movie.
Click Here For A SpoilerSomeone wrote in with this comment on Tom Brevoort's Blog: Joss Whedon has actually, in the last few days, mentioned... "For me, the greatest Avengers was the Avengers Annual that Jim Starlin did." Posted by Dev - Em on :
Interesting...veddy interesting.
Posted by Power Boy on :
I know I'm late to the party but how cool were Hawkeye and Black Widow!
Posted by Power Boy on :
I thought those big ships were really cool too.
Posted by Power Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
- Scarlet Johansson was actually pretty damn fantastic. Her role was not only strong but filled with subtleties. She made Natasha stand shoulder to shoulder with the big guns, yet her character was never so over the top that she was unrelatable.
- Tom Hiddleston as Loki was also fantastic. He’s a bit overshadowed by the rest of the cast, but its too his credit that ever scene he was in worked for me. If Loki was played by a bad actor, the movie would have bombed. The opposite happened here.
Click Here For A SpoilerThe second scene was hilarious! Funny and brilliantly done. And yet, without getting too over the top about it—it was so Marvel. Heroes doing regular things, feeling regular exhaustion.
Here’s hoping the next one has Hank & Jan!
Hiddleston was a great Loki, he almost has me rooting for him (like I was in Thor)
I didn't get to see the second scene! I left when the lights came up ...
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: I know I'm late to the party...
It's never too late to join THIS party!!
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: ...but how cool were Hawkeye and Black Widow!
I'm delighted that all the Scarlett haters have been left eating crow. Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Marvel: Six hero's to equal one DC hero!
Posted by Ann Hebistand on :
Oh, Mr. Whedon, I'll do anything to get a role in the sequel...anything...
Posted by Quislet, Esq on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: I didn't get to see the second scene! I left when the lights came up ...
Do you plan on seeing the movie again or do you want it spoiled?
Posted by Legion Tracker on :
Wasn't the dialogue in that second ending scene brilliant?
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Yeppers. Could not have been worded any better.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq: Dave,
I think it is pretty kid friendly. There is a lot of rampaging destruction where if it were real there would be lots of dead people. From what I remember there is only one on-screen death and one scene Click Here For A Spoiler where a guy gets stabbed in the face around his eye. Although you don't actually see the actual penetration part of the stabbing
I'm just now catching up with the thread since I saw the movie today, so if my comments overlap with others, I'll edit my posts as I go along.
A few other deaths I noticed:
Click Here For A SpoilerHawkeye kills at least two guards while under Loki's control, and one of Loki's soldiers falls out of the helli-carrier while fighting Cap. Also, it wasn't clear to me if the guy whose eye gets plucked out dies or not.
While watching these scenes, the thought occurred to me that modern audiences are probably more sophisticated than they were when I was reading Avengers stories as a kid (and well into adulthood). Most kids these days probably realize people die in armed conflict, and heroes don't always have time to spare the lives of their enemies.
In fact, that's probably also a concession of translating the book to film. Super-hero tropes such as "heroes don't kill" would probably throw most viewers out of the story.
Although it's not shown, and the newscast at the end makes no mention of this, a lot of civilians had to die when all the carnage happened in Manhattan.
[ May 14, 2012, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: While everyone was pretty great, some real A+’s have to go to:
- Mark Ruffalo, giving probably the best Bruce Banner performance of all time. He basically revitalized the Hulk for me, even more than how well done the Hulk himself was. Which, by the way, he was—the Hulk was the breakout star of the show.
100 percent agreed. Ruffalo has emerged as my favorite portayer or Hulk/Banner, even eclipsing Bill Bixby.
Ruffalo was an inspired casting choice. He comes across as a middle-aged, frumpy scientist, not a Hollywood-handsome hero, as Banner is usually protrayed. Physically, he seems out of place with Downey, Evans, and the rest, but personality wise, he stole the show. He was utterly credible as a guy who is trying not to lose control in a situation where he and everyone else should be tense all the time.
The Hulk has never been one of my favorite characters, and yet, my favorite scene in the whole move . . .
Click Here For A Spoiler. . . was Hulk bashing the floor with Loki!
It's the kind of thing we all feel like doing to someone at some point, and it reminds me why Hulk is so popular: He lets readers vicariously vent their rage.
quote: - Scarlet Johansson was actually pretty damn fantastic. Her role was not only strong but filled with subtleties. She made Natasha stand shoulder to shoulder with the big guns, yet her character was never so over the top that she was unrelatable.
Also agreed. Johansson really pulled off the fake damsel in distress bit in her scene with Loki.
quote: - Tom Hiddleston as Loki was also fantastic. He’s a bit overshadowed by the rest of the cast, but its too his credit that ever scene he was in worked for me. If Loki was played by a bad actor, the movie would have bombed. The opposite happened here.
Yeah. The one issue I have with casting is that Hiddleston came over as a more convincing god than Hemsworth did. Loki is just delicious: spoiled, egotistical, a prince of the realm in every sense. Everything from his accent to his smile reeked of superiority. Thor not so much. (And yes, Thor is a good guy, but he was too humble, and his accent seemed forced.)
I agree with your other casting comments, too.
[ May 14, 2012, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: I know I'm late to the party but how cool were Hawkeye and Black Widow!
I liked both of these characters, although I felt there were too many shots of Hawkeye activating his bow to make him seem powerful.
Hawkeye was totally unlike the comic book version (or at least how I imagined him), but it worked. He's a brooding loner type, it seems, who spends more time observing than talking. I loved how they played up the HawkEYE aspect, making his visual acuteness an asset in non-archery ways.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Legion Tracker: Wasn't the dialogue in that second ending scene brilliant?
And the action topped anything in the rest of the movie.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: Hawkeye was totally unlike the comic book version (or at least how I imagined him), but it worked. He's a brooding loner type, it seems, who spends more time observing than talking.
Now that you mention it, this was a different sort of Hawkeye, and I'm not sure it would have been to my taste even with a different actor. The peevish motormouth of the Silver Age might be a bit much by modern standards, but I think there could have been a middle ground, maybe something closer to his characterization of the early mid-80s, around the time he co-founded the West Coast Avengers...
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
What impressed me about Hawkeye and the Black Widow is that both stood their ground and came off as credible SHIELD agents and heroes -- a tough thing to do in movie populated by Downey, Evans, Hemsworth, and Ruffalo, actors whose characters had starred in their own feature films, not to mention Samuel L. Jackson, whose distinct personality dominates every scene he's in.
It would have been easy for Hawkeye and Natasha to fade into the background, but they didn't. They came off as heroes equal to the rest, each having something unique to contribute.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Its also a nod to the actors, writers and director that the relationship *between* the two felt very strong and layered. It was definitely a hook for each one to humanize them (and Hawkeye quickly after being 'bad' for so long).
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Saw it again last night in 3D... added very little to the experience... crazy amount of previews, including Amazing Spider-Man and Dark Knight Rises... not looking forward to DKR as much as I thought would be...
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I was thinking of watching it in 3D, Sharky, but you've just saved me the effort. (Though I may see the film again in regular format.)
I had to sit through 20 minutes of previews before the film started. This is why I go to movies so rarely these days. Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
<------ likes the previews
Posted by SharkLad on :
I love previews... not to get this thread off-topic, but Prometheus looks bad ass... and Brave looks like a lot of fun...
Posted by Power Boy on :
I love Charlize Theron ... I'd roll back for her.
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I'm not On Topic Angel, but it looks like I'll have to deputize for her.
Please continue the discussions on other summer movies here. Posted by He Who Wanders on :
(I hope no one minds if I sneak in one last off-topic comment, since it relates to those posted above . . . I don't mind previews, but twenty minutes strikes me as excessive. But then I hate commercials: I won't sit through a 15-second Youtube commercial to watch a music video.)
ON-TOPIC: I don't mind what's-her-name as She-Hulk, but I hope Shulkie isn't a priority for the next movie. I'd rather see Wanda and the Vision before later comics members are introduced. (Though Kelsey Grammer as The Beast would be a nice crossover.)
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
Much as I love She-Hulk (at least when she was written by Roger Stern), I doubt that the enthusiasm of one C-List actress would be enough to make the character a priority for the filmmakers.
I don't think it would be unrealistic to assume that we probably won't see She-Hulk in an Avengers movie until about 2025.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I think the only way we'll see Shulkie is in the last 20 minutes of a Hulk movie 'everything including the kitchen sink' type sequence.
Posted by lancesrealm on :
I finally saw this yesterday. I took my 11 yr old boy, and we both loved it!
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
One of a few movies I could watch again and again and I was never really interested in the characters or impressed by the previous, non-Iron Man movies. Everyone said Downey would steal it, but I really think it balanced well.
That Hulk-Thor scene is solidly planted in my memory and that's saying a lot with my memory.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I saw the movie again the other day--free at the college where I teach! It still holds up well, with all the humor in the right places.
I agree, the movie is balanced and each of the leads holds his or her own with Downey. Hemsworth is growing on me as Thor; initially, I thought he was too weak looking and the accent forced.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Out on video next week.
Posted by Set on :
It doesn't look like the video being released on the 25th will have the 'director's cut' extras cut from the movie, since the run time is listed as 143 minutes, same as the 'cut' version that was shown on-screen.
I really, really want to see the director's cut stuff, which (rumors suggest) includes a bit more on Captain America adjusting to the modern day, including a previous meeting with the waitress at the end who speaks up for him, and a reunion with Peggy Carter (from the Captain America movie), who, most likely, is in no condition to remember him...
Posted by matlock on :
We got the Blu-Ray/DVD combo and the extra Captain America bits are on the Blu-Ray as part of the deleted scenes. There's some poignant moments there. Almost as good: more Bruce Banner/Harry Dean Stanton interaction.
Overall I was a little underwhelmed at the extras. There's a director's commentary I haven't listened to yet but I'd have liked a bit more behind-the-scenes stuff. To be honest the extras on the Blu-Ray are more on par with what you'd have gotten on a decent DVD a few years back.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
Yeah, the Blu Ray could have had a lot more in the way of extras.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Okay, I got the movie for sam and we watched it together.
gotta say, on second viewing, the movies seems a lot...clunkier. A lot of the dialog was great, but then there were some real...well, shitty is the best word, spots. And unfortunately, a lot of it was the Cap stuff. Look, I don't make it bones about trying to translate a 1940's character into the ought/eens being difficult, but some things just didn't fit.
Example 1-- "Son, just don't!" or something like that. Cap, Hawk and Widow were taking a Quinjet and there's some maintanence/pilot guy on the ship. He's gonna object to them taking it and Evans as Cap says the previous. It might work in the comics, where the reader puts it into more...."heroic" context. But in the movie, the Guy seems a might...lightweight to be saying that, especially the 'son...' part. Just sayin.
Example 2- Cap makes the heroic pose while telling cops where to place officers and assist the random innocent civilians. Then, when they doubt him, he proceeds to beat up a few badguys and they jump to. Yes, I know, Cap is the "ulitmate" leader in the MU comics proper. But the same problem as above is here, as well as Evans just seems to light and slight to pull off cap in this movie.
Other things, like "puny god" were hifrickin'larious. But there were definitely some clunky parts.
Posted by Dev - Em on :
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Karl Urban.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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