posted
Just a few months away, folks. I'm trying to avoid spoilers and trailers and such, but I thought we could use a thread to speculate and opinionate, especially since thoughts about the movie have been finding their way into the Gymll's All Avengers thread, like this gem from Set:
quote:Originally posted by Set: The Black Widow taking the Wasps place as a founding Avenger, for the movie, mildly annoys me, but it might be amusing if they make a nod to the Russian spy teaming up with Captain America, whom other team-members might expect to have some anachronistic problem with her, only to realize that Russians and Americans were allies, back in Cap's day, and he slept through the entire 'godless communist' Red Scare / Cold War and has no idea why an American wouldn't trust a Russian...
I hope against hope that writer/director Joss Whedon sees that the same way as you, Set. The last thing I want is a Millar-style Cap.
But what do you have against the Black Widow replacing the Wasp as a founding Avenger? Just out of curiosity, do you also have a problem with Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym as a founding Avenger?
Personally, I hope Hank and Janet NEVER end up in ANY Avengers movie. Characters who are defined in the minds of fandom by domestic violence have no place in an all-ages superhero movie IMO. And I'm not saying I don't wish that Hank and Janet were defined by something else, but, unfortunately, that's the way it is.
posted
Speaking for myself alone, I like the originals whenever possible. The comics tell some pretty great stories with many to choose from over the past decades. Hollywood has about a %30 success rate in my mind when they change to much.
But, that's just me.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
posted
Hey, to each their own, Rick. That's what makes the world go 'round.
But I'm cautiously confident in Whedon. I loved his first arc of Astonishing X-Men. The rest of his AXM run, well...there's something to be said for quitting while you're ahead...
posted
I think it looks fun so far, and I have no problems with the changes in membership. They cannot faithfully translate any comic 100%...just cannot be done, so ass long as the changes are consistent in the movies themselves I'm okay.
Although I hope they expand the members a little in the next one, even if just in cameos.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Dev, I'm hoping for expansion, too. Pietro and Wanda were two of my favorites before they got dragged through the mud. We'll probably see Carol and Simon, too, though I've never cared for them.
Of course, I'd really like to see Patsy and Jennifer and Monica and Hercules and Dane and Crystal and Sersi, but I'm enough of a realist to know that's not likely (although in Jennifer and Monica's case, there's a slender chance.)
posted
I think that Jennifer being the teams lawyer would be a nice nod to the fans...with hints that there is more to her.
Also, you could have Carol as a SHIELD agent who gets hit with something and become a hero. Easy enough to do, and it would be awesome to see a female character on screen that could go toe to toe with Thor in the sheer power category.
Simon would be easy enough to do visually...at least his original look (not the glowing blue thing.
Dane would be a very easy choice to include...having an archer would mean that having a swordsman on the team would be an easy 'power' as well. Armor, sword, shield and a good brawler attitude.
Patsy would also be an easy one.
Monica would be a more difficult power to do, but having the diversity and just her character alone would be a nice addition.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Just to be clear though, I am thinking Karl Urban in his slightly unshaven mode for Dane. Dude can act. Has the attitude, and can be believable as a brawler that Dane is supposed to be.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: I dunno. I think he might be pretty good in a space opera movie of some type. maybe as a Doctor... OF SPACE!
He was perfect in that role as well. Proving that he is a great actor.
From: Turn around... | Registered: Jul 2003
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: But what do you have against the Black Widow replacing the Wasp as a founding Avenger? Just out of curiosity, do you also have a problem with Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym as a founding Avenger?
Even more so, actually. I like Hank Pym way better than Hawkeye (and I like Hawkeye a lot!).
As for the Wasp, specifically, she added a unique personality and voice to the team, one that cold war spy Natasha really didn't (since much of the team was already terribly serious). If there's only gonna be one female Avenger, I would prefer one that's vivacious and dynamic (and able to stand out in a room with Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk), not one who is by nature quieter and sticks to the shadows. (That being said, this is Joss Whedon, who has made his reputation on butt-kicking female characters like Buffy and River and Echo, so I doubt he'll have 'Tasha being all 'seen not heard' or 'one step behind!')
Both Janet and Wanda, as Avengers, predate the Black Widow by a decade, and, indeed, the Black Widow barely predates Mantis as an Avenger, and Mantis is pretty darn close to the last Avenger I want to see in a movie (right up there with Demolition Man, Starfox and Deathcry).
As for the slap heard 'round the world, Reed has hit Sue and Peter has hit Mary-Jane, and neither of them are defined by that, so I'm not convinced that Hank deserves the level of fan-hate he gets.
It shouldn't have happened, but it did, and it's been dragged out for a decade or so now, while Reed, only a few years ago, sent super-villain 'cape-killers' to arrest his wife, best friend and brother-in-law, and Dan Didio said later of how it would affect his marriage, 'He'll cook her dinner or something and they'll make up, no big deal.'
Pym's as much a 'wife-beater' as Spider-Man is a devil-worshipper for making a deal with the devil to end his marriage.
quote: Personally, I hope Hank and Janet NEVER end up in ANY Avengers movie. Characters who are defined in the minds of fandom by domestic violence have no place in an all-ages superhero movie IMO. And I'm not saying I don't wish that Hank and Janet were defined by something else, but, unfortunately, that's the way it is.
Hank and Jan work fine in the cartoon, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and that's even more of an 'all-ages' sort of deal. As long a narrator doesn't introduce Hank as a wife-beater, there's no reason at all for that to be an issue (or part of whatever continuity the comic or movie is introducing).
Almost *any* comic book character could be unusable, if taken by their worst moment.
Superman shot a porno with Big Barda, back in the day, under the control of an Apocalyptan villain, and he's still usable in kiddie cartoons.
Wolverine murdered a gay superhero (who later got better) and is a deadbeat dad with kids he doesn't even know about, and he's still plastered over lunchboxes and the star of kiddie shows.
Iron Man, oy. Remember that time he beat up half the armored heroes and villains in the world, including an Avenger and a bunch of government agents, and, in the process, killed a Russian superhero by accident? And then lied to the world about Iron Man 'going rogue' to get away with it, and later mindwiped the world to forget about it anyway?
As long as none of that stuff makes it into the movies or cartoons, I think the characters are still usable.
I can't even go to the over-dipped well of blaming the fans for the enduring nature of Hank's fall from grace, because the comic book writers themselves never fail to bring it up, over and over again. The latest issue of Avenger's Academy has Stryker throwing the word 'wife-beater' in his face.
The zombie meme of 'Hank Pym, wife-beater' that somehow failed to stick to Mr. Fantastic or Spider-Man is never gonna die if even the writers who *like* the character keep bringing it back around.
I'm actually conflicted about it. On the one hand, I like that, unlike Peter and Tony and Reed, Hank isn't getting a pass and having his sins swept under the rug and forgotten. It feels more like a hero's journey if the mistakes of one's past are burdens one has to shoulder, and lessons one can never be allowed to forget, rather than the way it normally works in the comics, where the good-guys get to screw up and have any sort of consequences or lasting repercussions conveniently go away.
On the other hand, karmic smackdowns happening so egregiously to Hank, while everyone else skates around him gloating, with equal or worse offenses in their own pasts, seems a bit surreal.
I suppose there's also the question of what *can't* a character (or real person in the real world) 'come back from.' We each draw the line of unforgivable in a different place, I suspect.
In a world full of mind control, evil duplicates, Pym Particle induced psychosis, Mephistophelan deals, blah-blah-blah, it's hard to come up with a baseline for what's out of line. Hank's off-and-on dating a robot with an artificial intelligence based off of the brain patterns of his dead wife, and *that's not even shocking* for the Avengers, since Wanda married a robot with the brain patterns of Simon Williams, and everybody thought it was totally romantic (and politely kept their opinions to themselves when she later went on to date Simon himself)! (Making it seem totally hypocritical that there's been a few side-comments about whether or not it's creepy that Hank and Jocasta are dating...)
[ November 12, 2011, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Set ]
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I think they made the right decision in replacing Wasp with Black Widow. I read a Black Widow story when I was child that was so good that I wanted to become a spy. I love the spy genre and while I know most of it is mythical, a good amount of it is rooted in actual espionage.
As for Hawkeye replacing Hank Pym, I think it has to do more with roles within the team than character backstory. If your team has Tony Stark and Bruce Banner on it I think the sciences are already covered.
-------------------- Go with the good and you'll be like them; go with the evil and you'll be worse than them.- Portuguese Proverb
From: Illinois | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
Well said, Emily. In the unreal world of entertainment, the dirty business of espionage always goes well with a sweet coating of romanticism. Are you, by any chance a fan of the TV show "Alias"?
Set, as is often the case, I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I respect the conviction behind it and the eloquence with which you express it. There is a few places where our minds definitely meet, though:
quote:Originally posted by Set: this is Joss Whedon, who has made his reputation on butt-kicking female characters like Buffy and River and Echo, so I doubt he'll have 'Tasha being all 'seen not heard' or 'one step behind!'
Exactly. And combined with an actress of Scarlett Johansson's caliber, I think a vivid and witty Natasha is at least 99% certain.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I can't even go to the over-dipped well of blaming the fans for the enduring nature of Hank's fall from grace, because the comic book writers themselves never fail to bring it up, over and over again. The latest issue of Avenger's Academy has Stryker throwing the word 'wife-beater' in his face.
The zombie meme of 'Hank Pym, wife-beater' that somehow failed to stick to Mr. Fantastic or Spider-Man is never gonna die if even the writers who *like* the character keep bringing it back around.
I think the writers and editors are ENTIRELY to blame. I won't name names, because I don't want this thread to go off on tangents that would be better suited for the Gymll's forum, but ever since Hank's fall from grace, there have been, on the one hand writers who have tried to "fix" him only to get it terribly, terribly wrong, and, on the other hand, writers who think he's good for nothing but retreads of one of the ugliest, most ill-conceived moments in superhero comics history.
The problem, as I see it, is -- and I hate to admit it, because I *do* like Hank, warts and all -- there's been nothing yet to distinguish him from a million other generic male superheroes than his psychotic episodes, which go all the way back to the late 1960s. It's the proverbial elephant in the room, and writers either ignore it or fixate on it. There have been, as I said before, writers who have tried to take the mess that's been built around him and make him an example of redemption, but their efforts have been cut short either by the premature departures of said writers, the ineptitude of said writers, or editorial interference.
I haven't been following Avengers Academy, so I don't know what tack Christos Gage has been taking, but the example you name of somebody dredging up his past sins yet again in the latest issue is not promising.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I'm actually conflicted about it. On the one hand, I like that, unlike Peter and Tony and Reed, Hank isn't getting a pass and having his sins swept under the rug and forgotten. It feels more like a hero's journey if the mistakes of one's past are burdens one has to shoulder, and lessons one can never be allowed to forget, rather than the way it normally works in the comics, where the good-guys get to screw up and have any sort of consequences or lasting repercussions conveniently go away.
On the other hand, karmic smackdowns happening so egregiously to Hank, while everyone else skates around him gloating, with equal or worse offenses in their own pasts, seems a bit surreal.
Very well put.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I suppose there's also the question of what *can't* a character (or real person in the real world) 'come back from.' We each draw the line of unforgivable in a different place, I suspect.
Yes, and I not only had no problem forgiving Tony Stark for his behavior in the story arc you mentioned...
quote:Originally posted by Set:Iron Man, oy. Remember that time he beat up half the armored heroes and villains in the world, including an Avenger and a bunch of government agents, and, in the process, killed a Russian superhero by accident? And then lied to the world about Iron Man 'going rogue' to get away with it?
...but it is also to me the best and most defining Iron Man story arc. Tony has always had a bit of a pirate in him, and for better or for worse, it's something tangible that DEFINES him. And BTW, I left out the part about the mindwipe because that was the work of another creative team, which pretty much puts what we've been discussing in a nutshell.
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Fanfic Lady: The problem, as I see it, is -- and I hate to admit it, because I *do* like Hank, warts and all -- there's been nothing yet to distinguish him from a million other generic male superheroes than his psychotic episodes, which go all the way back to the late 1960s. It's the proverbial elephant in the room, and writers either ignore it or fixate on it. There have been, as I said before, writers who have tried to take the mess that's been built around him and make him an example of redemption, but their efforts have been cut short either by the premature departures of said writers, the ineptitude of said writers, or editorial interference.
I 100% agree. His biggest problem is that this is his most famous moment.
Reed's had *Galactus* show up at a trial to argue how frikkin' awesome he is despite being kinda/sorta responsible for the Skrull genocide. (Oops, my bad!)
Hank's had a few not entirely terrible moments of coolness, but, for the most part, he's been unfailingly held accountable to that one action, while everybody else gets showered with 'get out of jail free' cards.
When a writer does try to elevate him, as with the terribly over-the-top Scientist Supreme notion, it's just awkward and kind of pathetic, IMO. If the writers would just bloody well drop it and never mention it again, it would be as relevant to the character of Hank Pym as that time that Wolverine stabbed Rachel in the heart because he thought she was being too violent.
quote: I haven't been following Avengers Academy, so I don't know what tack Christos Gage has been taking, but the example you name of somebody dredging up his past sins yet again in the latest issue is not promising.
The character who brought it up was a borderline sociopathic young 'hero' in training who explicitly wants to become an Avenger because it will boost his fame and pave his way to becoming a celebrity (basically, he fancies himself the next Simon Williams, riding Avengers membership straight to Hollywood fame and fortune).
So, while it was annoying to me to see it flung out there, Gage picked the *perfect* character to start slinging mud. It was completely in-character for Stryker to 'go there.'
(And, in that particular scene, Captain America, who was standing next to Pym, leapt to his defense, so it's a far, far cry from the Ultimates version of Hank and Cap...)
quote:but it is also to me the best and most defining Iron Man story arc. Tony has always had a bit of a pirate in him, and for better or for worse, it's something tangible that DEFINES him. And BTW, I left out the part about the mindwipe because that was the work of another creative team, which pretty much puts what we've been discussing in a nutshell.
True, and I looked forward to the fallout of that event, particularly at the end of the Armor Wars, when Tony gave his big speech saying that Iron Man had gone rogue and ducked responsibility, only to bump into Captain America at the mansion, who knew darn well that he had been in the armor the entire time, and there was a brief but tense conversation that implied consequences.
Which, unfortunately, never really happened.
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