It really is, from BoP to Wonder Woman, the level of discourse over there has dropped to an all time low. At least with people wanting the return of Hal in the GL books there was some real passion, fire, HEAT if you will.
Now, its more like a few people on each board decide they don't like something, and because they don't like one aspect (such as Babs in a wheelchair in BoP) it suddenly means the writer is no good.
And thats just one board. Doom Patrol, etal have suffered the same thing.
I still go there, still try to talk and have a bit of fun, but the ratio of effort to fun is so low its becoming a chore rather than a fun place to visit and talk.
I love legionworld. The last couple of months just hanging out, shooting the shit, having fun with the gang was great. But occasionally, I want to talk about the other books of DC in a place that has more activity than Gymll's.
Its depressing.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
I guess I've contributed to that.
Posted by future king on :
I never ever signed up as a member there. Not sure why just never felt the urge to. Becoming a member of this site really was key for me because it's always been my favourite comic and seems to bring out the little kid in me.
Making these awesome friendships along the way on here is really just icing on the cake for me. Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
It's been awesome having you here, FK!
As for going to the DC message boards, I don't do it for the same reason I don't eat glass or hit myself in the head with a hammer!
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
I don't go over their much anymore if at all, and when I did I mostly just posted in the Legion forum.
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
I haven't posted at the DCMBs regularly since 2003, when a lot of us jumped ship to join Legion World (and a couple of sites in between).
LW provides my Legion fix. It's a more positive and intelligent approach to all things Legion (and many other things, really).
DCMB posters are complaining about Babs Gordon being in a wheelchair?! She's only been in that wheelchair for 23 years or so. Rick's description reminds me of how little some people know about comics or comics history. Unfortunately, those people can spread their ignorance far and wide via the Internet.
Posted by profh0011 on :
I recall the DC boards as one of the first Message Boards I used to hang out at. There was a recurring thing that kept happening there... Someone would start a "controvesial" thread, it would suddenly explode from 1 page to 10 or 20... and 24 hours later, the moderator would WIPE the thread.
The other recurring thing was, every so often, they'd RE-FORMAT the entire site. And it seemed to me, each time they would, at least HALF of the intelligent posters would vanish, never to be seen again. And this happened multiple times. So with each change, the level of intelligence would KEEP-- GOING-- DOWN, DOWN, DOWN!!!
It kinda reminds me of my neighborhood over the decades. Each time it hits a new low, and I'd figure, how could it possibly get any worse than this? --IT WOULD.
I joined here, I think, when this was first set up (or shortly after) and I recall a strong sense of almost paranoia of keeping certain people from the DC boards in finding out about this place. Quite understandable.
I miss the old CAPTAIN COMICS site. I found that some years back, and for awhile, it was a fun (and generally well-behaved) place. Then some time back, they lost their host, had to re-locate, in the process the entire format of the site changed completely... and it lost its charm. I quit the place within about a month, only time I've done that when there wasn't anyone causing trouble.
The MASTERWORKS board sort of filled in for that for a while. Lots of intelligent posters and threads there... but only in the "Blammo" section (movies, music, etc. etc.). NOT the comics sections. The comics sections there are lorded over by some of the most HATEFUL, ARROGANT, DISRUPTIVE "fans" I've ever run across... and the 2 moderators ENCOURAGE and contribute to the problem.
2 months ago I stopped posting there. The other day, I was inspired to post something... and one of the other members "quoted" my post-- and CHANGED WHAT I SAID IN THE QUOTE. (How rude can you get?) Today, suddenly, I can't sign in! I mean-- WTF???
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: DCMB posters are complaining about Babs Gordon being in a wheelchair?! She's only been in that wheelchair for 23 years or so.
I get the feeling that the gist of the argument is that it seems off somehow that a woman *surrounded* by people who could cure her (magically, using Amazonian purple ray healing, Atlantean tech, Waynetech, etc., etc.) is still in the chair.
I get where they are coming from, and I even posted to such a thread that the problem isn't that all of Barbara's superhero friends are soul-crushingly horrible people for not helping her, or that she's incredibly thick for not asking them to do so, but that it's a problem with a shared continuity universe.
Babs works really well in her little Gotham-esque grim-and-gritty actions-have-consequences section of the DCU, with Batman, Nightwing, etc. and where the coolest super-power among her circle of friends is Black Canary's ability to scream real loud.
Put her in the same universe with people who can create exoskeletal armors capable of going toe-to-toe with Doomsday, Amazons able to raise the dead, Zatanna and her 'If I can say it backwards, I can do it' powers, etc., and the 'setting logic' that keeps her in the wheelchair kind of starts to wobble precipitiously.
Even without magic or 'purple healing rays' or ridiculous First World or Durlan or future tech, Cyborg, Steel *or* Mr. Terrific could probably have her walking (exoskeletally or bionically) in a couple of days, if they *wanted to.*
Just as crossovers with different sets of characters have caused all sorts of problems for the Legion (see, Superboy, Pocket Universe), putting Batman and Oracle, etc. in a shared continuity where people can click a button and teleport to the Justice League Satellite and back (why, exactly, are you swinging on a rope, Bruce, or letting Bane break you back, when you can *teleport at will?*), tends to demolish suspension of disbelief in their grittier and more grounded 'street-level' section of the DCU.
Crisis, IMO, did it totally backwards.
Instead of crunching all the worlds together, I think they would have strengthened the DCU by putting the Bat-folk and the Super-folk and the Marvel-folk and the Green Lantern-folk in different universes, and brought them together for crossovers through dimensional travel, the way they used to do JLA/JSA teamups.
Batman can fight someone like Bane, and never once would it be an issue that he could teleport away, or, with *a word* have one of four Flashes, five Green Lanterns or a dozen Kryptonians show up from across the planet and help him in less time it takes for Bane to say, 'Aw, crap.' Gotham can get ravaged by earthquake and plague, and it would never be a question why he doesn't care enough about the people of Gotham to lift a finger to call someone who could either stop it, or fix it.
But, instead, we got the shared continuity, where nobody shows up to help Batman (or Oracle) because it would mess up the story, nevermind that it makes every superhero who failed to help look like a colossal jerk, willing to let thousands die rather than lift a finger to help, and Bats himself look like he's either too proud, or too stupid, to use his JLA communicator and call for backup to save lives.
I prefer to think of Oracle as living in her own continuity, with the Bat-folk and some street-level characters like the Birds of Prey, where it's just not possible for Dr. Fate to pop over and transmigrate her soul into a healthier body cloned by Cadmus technology, or any of the *hundeds* of possible ways she could be put back on her feet.
Instead of Babs, and a bewildering number of her so-called friends, being either staggeringly dumb, or utterly heartless, I'd rather just pretend that she lives in a grittier less four-color, more 'actions have consequences' world where it isn't that easy to cure her, and that it's perfectly logical that she's still in the chair.
It makes stories like the Killing Joke, or Bane breaking the Bat, more potent if it's not something that could have been easily avoided (or fixed in a couple of pages by having a woman in a half-tux and fishnets say, 'niaga klaW'). The writers obviously agree, since they don't have these things fixed, but since the Birds of Prey/Batman *are* in a universe where these things can be dismissed as easily as making a phone call to someone they already talk to on a weekly basis, just makes it harder to take these situations seriously.
I mean, really, how 'powerful' a story is it that Babs is in a wheelchair, when the rules of the setting make it abundantly clear that she doesn't have to be? She's not a cripple by circumstances, she's a cripple by choice, and that makes any dramatic impact of her being a cripple pretty much meaningless.
The reader can blame the Joker for putting her in that chair, but as long as she's talking on a daily basis with people who could cure her if she bothered to ask them, it becomes sloppy writing (that just makes her, and all of her so-called friends, look bad) that's kept her in that chair.
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
All good points, Set. Thanks for the clarification.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The "shared universe" idea has always generated these kinds of problems of characters who make no sense once you mix them in with other characters. Cf. Martian Manhunter of the early 60s, who was trapped on Earth with no way to get back to his native Mars, despite being on a super-team that was regularly engaging in interstellar travel.
Or the original JSA, where writers had to somehow make plots that would convincingly challenge a nigh omnipotent character like the Spectre while not overwhelming the guy who is really tough for a short guy.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
yeah. these are all good examples of why I favor limited continuity rather than tightly-knit universes. Stan Lee's gimmick has long been out of control, IMHO.
Batman, as another example, could have so much access to alien tech that his own inventions would pale in comparison. Moreover, his villains could level Gotham getting their hands on some. To read the Bat-books (even when they're readable) and even partially suspend disbelief to enjoy them, it seems to me you have to (consciously or not) accept a certain disconnect from a grand, unified 'universe.'
Similarly, I'm vaguely recalling a 1980s story where the Outsiders were the only ones who could save the day from some menace from space; one would have to assume that the thousands of other super-powered people on Earth were all somehow unavailable. Lots of comics stories don't work if you give them too much thought.
But back to the DC boards, I've dabbled in them here and there, but they never had the draw, the community I feel here (except for the LSH forum, ironically enough).
Posted by cleome on :
I tried to create a new I.D. over there last year, at the suggestion of somebody over here. It didn't work, and I promptly forgot about the place.
Posted by Power Boy on :
they used to pick on me.
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: they used to pick on me.
I saw we go back and pick on them then...picking on my friends...the nerve. Posted by cleome on :
Yeah, really. What did Power Boy do, anyway?
Getting back to the original post: I will say it's incorrect that fans "suddenly" decided that they didn't like Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair. The women over at WFA have been complaining about her being shot and crippled for years. Which I totally get, actually. I never liked that development in the first place. It was just as gratuitous as the death of Supergirl in Crisis. Posted by Dev Em on :
I personally like her as Oracle...but that has no bearing on whether she is crippled or not. Heal her next issue for all I care, just keep her in her current role.
The problem is the same as other things that are "wrong" with the Marvel and DC Universes.
The Joker would have been put to death years ago by some nation...I don't care how crafty he is...assassinations are carried out all the time. Someone somewhere would have put a hit on him and he would be gone.
The Flash, and Superman should never have to even blink before taking out their "enemies"
Any number of heroes should have no problems with their villians...yet they do. In turn there are villians that should just slaughter certain heroes without a second thought...but they don't.
No death/maiming should last longer than a few panels...yet they do.
Otherwise you have a utoppia with characters like this running around...and that my friends makes for boring reading.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Well, she's too old for "BatGIRL" now, and anyway, she's been much better written for the last two decades as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl, IMO.
As for her being in a wheelchair... The Chief, Robotman, Cyborg, Xavier, Robotman II... women aren't the only ones in a wheelchair, hurt, maimed or killed. If anything, she stands out so much more now than she ever did as Batgirl. She's actually someone of real standing in the DCU, with fingers everywhere, rather than the dilettante debutante.
But to hear the yahoo's over on the BoP boards, it's an inconceivable insult that she hasn't been instantly healed and back to swinging on a rope from her yellow purse.
But, it's that kind of whining that's driving me from DCMB's. And thats a real shame, for as much as I love legion, even that board is flattern'a pancake. There's no fun or enjoyment over there anymore, its just people picking one of two camps, and yelling at each other. And god forbid someone start a thread for fun that isn't a trivia thread.
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
quote:...women aren't the only ones in a wheelchair, hurt, maimed or killed...
Overall, however, women characters make up a tiny portion of the superhero 'verse, relative to men. That's why some of us feel so protective of them.
Even Alan Moore decided in retrospect that "cripple the b*tch" (as one DC exec so memorably put it ) wasn't such a great idea.
Posted by Legion Tracker on :
HEY! What's with all the whinin' on this thread? HUH?
;-)
<from one who never visits the DC message boards and has no business even posting on this thread....>
Posted by cleome on :
Hey, I'm proud of my whining!
I just try to concentrate it in forty or fifty key place, rather than all over the net.
Posted by Set on :
Like so many female characters, she wasn't kidnapped/shot/hurt/killed to advance *her* story, but to amp up the bad-guy as a serious threat, and to advance the story of the male hero. It's a go-to writers stunt, to endanger a woman or child (or both, in the case of Frank Castle's family), to motivate the hero and whip up the audience with a desire to see the bad-guy get his comeuppance.
In her case, the turn to Oracle from 'retired bat-clone who works in a library,' actually *did* lead to greater development and exposure for the character, but that sure wasn't the original authors intent. That was a later author making lemonade from lemons.
These days, there's nothing about the wheelchair that has anything to do with her job. She could regain the ability to stand and walk around and yet still choose to be Oracle, and consider her Batgirl days 'in the field' a thing of the happily-forgotten past, noting that she's done more good, and filled a more vital role as the one and only Oracle than she did as Batclone four of fifteen.
The wiki article on Barbara/Oracle is actually pretty neat, with various women working at DC expressing their opinions (ranging from disgust, support and / or disappointment) for the Killing Joke storyline and it's treatment of Barbara, and Kim Yale and John Ostrander (at Yale's prompting) leading the charge to re-invent Barbara as Oracle over the next few years.
Posted by Blacula on :
In 23 years I'm still going to be complaining about the fact Judd Winick had Lilith (a telepath) not realise she was dealing with a ROBOT when he killed her! Posted by rickshaw1 on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Like so many female characters, she wasn't kidnapped/shot/hurt/killed to advance *her* story, but to amp up the bad-guy as a serious threat, and to advance the story of the male hero. It's a go-to writers stunt, to endanger a woman or child (or both, in the case of Frank Castle's family), to motivate the hero and whip up the audience with a desire to see the bad-guy get his comeuppance.
In her case, the turn to Oracle from 'retired bat-clone who works in a library,' actually *did* lead to greater development and exposure for the character, but that sure wasn't the original authors intent. That was a later author making lemonade from lemons.
These days, there's nothing about the wheelchair that has anything to do with her job. She could regain the ability to stand and walk around and yet still choose to be Oracle, and consider her Batgirl days 'in the field' a thing of the happily-forgotten past, noting that she's done more good, and filled a more vital role as the one and only Oracle than she did as Batclone four of fifteen.
The wiki article on Barbara/Oracle is actually pretty neat, with various women working at DC expressing their opinions (ranging from disgust, support and / or disappointment) for the Killing Joke storyline and it's treatment of Barbara, and Kim Yale and John Ostrander (at Yale's prompting) leading the charge to re-invent Barbara as Oracle over the next few years.
Well, this wasn't just to talk about BoP, but more of an overall picture of the DCMB. You get thet same stuff over at Doom Patrol, Wonder Woman, GL, GA, Flash... the list goes on and on.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: It's been awesome having you here, FK!
As for going to the DC message boards, I don't do it for the same reason I don't eat glass or hit myself in the head with a hammer!
Ditto friend!
But .... I rather enjoy hitting myself in the head with a hammer!
HEY, that should be my new avatar saying! Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: they used to pick on me.
Hey, anyone who picks on Power Boy has to answer to me first!!!
I say we go over there, I hold 'em down while you pour fireants into their navels. Why, tarrin' too good for 'em!!! <says while channeling rickshaw1 and shaking fist> Posted by Set on :
This thread has been mentioned over at the DC boards. There's even a link.
I won't link back to it, because that might cross the streams and cause the universe to explode.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: In 23 years I'm still going to be complaining about the fact Judd Winick had Lilith (a telepath) not realise she was dealing with a ROBOT when he killed her!
don't worry. It's only DC "continuity." She'll be back sooner or later, and the robot thing will be retconned way. It's only a matter of time.
Always liked Lilith. I'd heard she was dead, but never read the story in question.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: This thread has been mentioned over at the DC boards. There's even a link.
I won't link back to it, because that might cross the streams and cause the universe to explode.
yeah, every so often, someone takes a potshot at us. no biggie.
Posted by future king on :
That's fine. I punch back harder though. Just sayin'.
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: This thread has been mentioned over at the DC boards. There's even a link.
I won't link back to it, because that might cross the streams and cause the universe to explode.
I looked, I saw, I left. No big surprise with the thread over there. Exactly what I thought.
>waves<
Hi there. Posted by rickshaw1 on :
It was started by the resident banned poster. 'bout once a quarter he picks something to post about us to get a rise, really to try and bait us into conversing with him again.
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
A lot of good points have been raised about Barbara Gordon. I have to admit, I'd never thought of her injury as being detrimental to female characters or realized how absurd it is that she's in still a wheelchair.
I remember when The Killing Joke came out -- it was during the period when DC was trying to reinvent itself with "darker" versions of its heroes. Green Lantern was revealed to be a drunk driver, Hawkman a murderer, etc. 5YL was just around the corner.
In that context, Babs' crippling came off as just another example of "reality" slapping DC's heroes in the face.
I don't read comics at all these days, so my comments may be made in ignorance. However, I like the idea of a character who has sustained a debilitating injury still making a positive impact in the world. Other wheelchair-bound characters like Prof. X and the Chief were introduced that way. Babs is the only character I can think of who had a long and successful career before her injury -- a career that was taken away from her. I think she represents all the people whose lives have been irrevocably changed by some idiot or through no fault of their own (e.g., Gabrielle Giffords). Yes, what happened to her was unfair and tragic. But she has chosen to make the best of what she has left.
Maybe that's why DC keeps her in the wheelchair.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Well, someone posted that Didio said that she sold much better as Oracle. In a for profit business, thats the main driving force. some characters have things happen to them, just like real life. Its not fair that someone gets MS, or Cancer, or even very scarring acne, but thats the way life is. For each and every comic character to never have anything bad happen to them would quickly be boring.
As for Babs, walking, not walking, I don't care as long as she continues to grow. But honestly, she's done better as Oracle than she ever did as Batgirl. She headlines a nearly all female team that sells well, something no other all/nearly all female group has ever done before.
But, its not just the BoP places. Even on the other board people are noticing the level of animosity there, the fact that fun seems to be verboten. This thread might be seen as nasty to some, but maybe, even with the person that started this there, folks will notice. A change there would be nice. I don't know how many people still post there, but the number of oldtimers seems to be diminishing while the short post count people post with much greater animosity. And seem to glory in picking fights and posting nasty.
I think my original post is accurate. Right now, the work put in is not worth the reward received.
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
Yes, I know that profit is always at the center of DC's motives. Still, comic book characters have an impact on readers, particularly children, and I like to think that promoting a positive influence also informs a company's decisions.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: But, its not just the BoP places. Even on the other board people are noticing the level of animosity there, the fact that fun seems to be verboten. This thread might be seen as nasty to some, but maybe, even with the person that started this there, folks will notice. A change there would be nice. I don't know how many people still post there, but the number of oldtimers seems to be diminishing while the short post count people post with much greater animosity. And seem to glory in picking fights and posting nasty.
I think my original post is accurate. Right now, the work put in is not worth the reward received.
I'm not sure that posting a thread here pointing out the problems with the DCMBs is particularly productive, however. If it's not fun, don't post there. Or, if you think it would actually change things, start a thread there about why you are unhappy. Starting a thread here on what's wrong with the DCMBs is a bit like talking about someone behind their backs, knowing that they'll overhear.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I actually have. Its quickly run down and then ignored.
And I wasn't doing this to talk behind their backs. I have no problem saying it to peoples faces. Thing is, if I do and even take amazingly great pains to not hurt feelings, its still gonna turn into "You hypocrite, you are doing the very thing you say is wrong." and all genuine conversation ends as the fighting starts. I've seen it too many times.
And its not like other boards haven't been mentioned here before.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
Rick, I strongly advise just to let it go; don't go there if it bothers you. Anonymous board either need patrolling, or to convert to a non-anonymous format. Otherwise they become trolldoms.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The way I see it, posting on the DCMBs is a lot like reading DC Comics. In both cases, it's generally more frustrating than pleasurable. So I could continue to read DC Comics, and then spend a bunch of time posting about how I'm not enjoying them on message boards, or I can find things that I actually do enjoy. The same goes with message boards. You can complain about the DCMBs there or here, but what does it really accomplish?
That's one of the reasons Nightcrawler is really awesome. Rather than simply complaining, he started a whole new board for those disenchanted with the DCMBs back when they changed format. And he's worked hard to keep this a place where we can have both fun and serious discussions, without a lot of the obnoxiousness associated with other boards.
[ April 24, 2011, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: The way I see it, posting on the DCMBs is a lot like reading DC Comics. In both cases, it's generally more frustrating than pleasurable. So I could continue to read DC Comics, and then spend a bunch of time posting about how I'm not enjoying them on message boards, or I can find things that I actually do enjoy. The same goes with message boards. You can complain about the DCMBs there or here, but what does it really does accomplish?
That's one of the reasons Nightcrawler is really awesome. Rather than simply complaining, he started a whole new board for those disenchanted with the DCMBs back when they changed format. And he's worked hard to keep this a place where we can have both fun and serious discussions, without a lot of the obnoxiousness associated with other boards.
>like<
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
Amen, Eryk. Posted by Emily Sivana on :
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: Yes, I know that profit is always at the center of DC's motives. Still, comic book characters have an impact on readers, particularly children, and I like to think that promoting a positive influence also informs a company's decisions.
I kind of hope that Barbara is providing some inspiration to children in wheelchairs, the way that Daredevil is inspiring to blind children.
Posted by He Who LSHes on :
quote:Originally posted by Emily Sivana:
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: Yes, I know that profit is always at the center of DC's motives. Still, comic book characters have an impact on readers, particularly children, and I like to think that promoting a positive influence also informs a company's decisions.
I kind of hope that Barbara is providing some inspiration to children in wheelchairs, the way that Daredevil is inspiring to blind children.
Me, too, Emily.
Let's not forget that, whatever corporate intentions lie behind our heroes, the message they give to their readers is entirely different and more profound.
Posted by Dev Em on :
I agree. John and Kim took a character that nobody seemed to know what to do with, or at least what to do with her after The Killing Joke, and turned her into a positive and extremely important character in not only the Bat mythos...but hte entire DCU at large.
The motivations behind what initially happened to her can be debated endlessly...face it, none of us were in any of the meetings to know exactly what was said, and how it was meant when said...if it was said at all. Things can seem vastly different years later, and especially by a creator who has othing positive to say about anything anyway. The fact remains that she is a good character...regardless of if she can walk or not.
Posted by Jerry on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: The way I see it, posting on the DCMBs is a lot like reading DC Comics. In both cases, it's generally more frustrating than pleasurable. So I could continue to read DC Comics, and then spend a bunch of time posting about how I'm not enjoying them on message boards, or I can find things that I actually do enjoy. The same goes with message boards. You can complain about the DCMBs there or here, but what does it really accomplish?
That's one of the reasons Nightcrawler is really awesome. Rather than simply complaining, he started a whole new board for those disenchanted with the DCMBs back when they changed format. And he's worked hard to keep this a place where we can have both fun and serious discussions, without a lot of the obnoxiousness associated with other boards.
Which raises the question of how many internet posters really enjoy reading comic books any more. Most forums are more full of complaints than anything else. I occasionally browse the DC message boards but stopped posting a long time ago. I'm a huge Wonder Woman fan and just couldn't bear the negative tone of the Wonder Woman boards. Each new writer was barraged with negative attacks. I thoroughly enjoyed the writing of Phil Jimenez, Greg Rucka, and Gail Simone. I'm enthralled with the mystery and tone of the current "new direction". Wonder Woman's book has been graced by one amazingly talented artist after another for years. You wouldn't know that by hanging around the message boards. It seems like "fans" have this impossible standard for the character. Their love for the character is based on some imaginary concept they have for her rather than any actual story that they ever read about her. Sure, I get upset with editorial decisions at times. Overall, though, the joy of reading comics books remains in the reading of comic books. It feels like the joy for too many fans has devolved into complaining about comic books.
Posted by profh0011 on :
The story I heard was, THE KILLING JOKE was conceived as one of the "final" Earth-1 stories. It was gonna be the LAST appearance of Batgirl, EVER. I mean, if you look at BATMAN: YEAR ONE, Frank Miller seems to have WIPED Barbara from existence!
The "problem" was, Brian Bolland was SO SLOW, it took years longer to get published than intended. And so, when it finally came out, instead of being an "Earth-1" story, it was a "New DCU" story.
You know, when I consider how many of DC's characters have had their histories completely re-written, and re-told, COMPLETELY OUT OF SEQUENCE, over the last 25 years, it's amazing their histories make as much sense as they do.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
^Wow, fascinating Prof, I never heard that before!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I knew that the original plan after Crisis was to eliminate Babs from continuity, and some sort of miscommunication led to her being used post-Crisis, but I didn't realize Killing Joke was supposed to be a "final Earth-1" type story. Definitely interesting.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I'd heard that Babs being shot was not Moore's idea, that he was told to include it to make it an 'important' event. Batman and the Joker both laughing at the end doesn't work very well in the context of the shooting.... but it does work pretty well as a 'last Earth-1' story (with one or the other, that is. not both).
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I don't know, for me it did work. It was the dark absurdity that made it work. Like when people are thinking about something at a wake and laugh. it's completely inappropriate, and that's way its so funny to someone.
Course, anyone here that knows me knows I can be highly inappropriate, so maybe it was just me.
Posted by cleome on :
So just for the heck of it, I tried registering over there again last week.
I don't remember why I got rejected last time I tried, but this time they demanded a "unique email address."
Uh, whatever. I juggle more than enough emails and passwords at this point. It seems kind of silly to create another for the sole purpose of being allowed into a space that I likely won't frequent all that much.
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) wasn't such a great idea.
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