Anybody surprised by this news event? He's been in power since 1959! For more details just look it up in both Yahoo News or the CNN website. Check out a recent Wikipedia article edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Retirement
Here's some trivia to share with you: Castro persecuted a cartoonist who was very critical of his regime.Months after coming to power this cartoonist fled to the U.S.A. and stayed until his death in 1998.This cartoonist is none other than the creator of the popular MAD Magazine feature Spy VS.Spy-Antonio Prohias!! Posted by Teronna on :
Well. I used to think that the end of Castro's rule would mean democracy for Cuba, but now that his brother is taking over? I'm not so sure.
Though I did think that the only thing that would make him give up the presidency would be his death.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Castro is a killer/murderer. Many cubans fled because it was his way or death. Democracy in Cuba would be a great thing.
Don't believe the hype about Castro. Him like Che killed thousands. He's up there with Stalin.
Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
I don't know a lot about Cuban politics, but I have a hunch that brother Castro won't last long. Fidel was an icon (for better or for worse), but his brother seems only to have the name in common. He doesn't have the people's fear or respect. I think Cuba is probably in for some major changes -- sooner, rather than later.
Posted by doublechinner on :
Jorge, I imagine you have much more knowledge/info on this than I do. Still, as I thought about this today, I was shocked that he actually officially resigned. Now, don't get me wrong, he will no doubt remain a power behind the throne. Still, how many despotic, totalitarian dicatators have actually "stepped down" voluntarily? Stalin died. Mao died. Brezhnev died. Hitler died. Mugabe died. And so on. And yet Fidel Castro steps down. It's a remarkable event, given the lack of historical antecedent.
Posted by Vee on :
I believe stepping down is a tactical decision by Castro. He has probably determined that by stepping down (following the recent Chinese model) he can continue to control the direction of the country from behind the scenes. He will continue to be a member of the "parliament" as well as the politboro and central council. From those positions of power he will still wield enourmous influence.
I expect little change initially whether Raul is elevated to the Presidency or Carlos Lago or one of the other 2nd generation communists is moved up. What I will be looking for is if and when they decide to allow students, who have been agitating for it, to study abroad and to have access to the internet unfettered. Once this happens, it will be the beginning of the end for this brutual regime.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Vee, not defending Castro or anything (he's evil). But I know a few guys that were able to go to Europe for jobs after college. They studied IT (information technology) and because Cuba didn't have many jobs to offer they were given the oppurtunity to move to Europe. Belgium specifically and I think some in Spain. Ofcourse they got married and began families and have no wish to return.
I also think Fidel will be runnings things behind the scenes. But Fidel was a very tough smart man. I don't think the other communist will be able to replace Castro effectively. Atleast I hope not.
Vee, you were born there right?
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I disagree with none of the assessments of Castro here, but I would point out that even without Raul, it's not an all-or-nothing scenario, Castros/communists-or-democracy.
Remember that Castro rose to power by overthrowing a US-backed dictator, too. For most Cubans, as I understand it, life didn't change that much; only one elite replaced another. The old elite, and their children and grandchildren, waiting in the wings in south Florida do not give the impression that they any more demcracy-oriented than any other Cuban regime; they seem to expect they will just power-boat back to Cuba someday and resume their own regime.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Things did change between one dictator and another. There is no elite at all. The thing is even the people who weren't elite fell down a few rungs. My family wasn't rich in Cuba. Lower middle class or right above poor. That changed. It got worse. It got worse for everybody.
There is nothing to strive for. Atleast poor people here(or in other countries) have hope to escape that situation. In Cuba there is no hope.
In Florida there isn't an old elite. Not everyone who left Cuba was rich. Infact very few were. The Cubans in Florida are people who came here with nothing and have done quite well for themselves.
I actually don't ever want to go to Cuba. I was born here and am quite happy. I don't even want to visit. Bad taste in my mouth and all of that. I don't know anyone who wants to move back. But I do have family over there...and I would like to see them stop sufferring. Because when we talk to them...they tell us they are sufferring. And all my friends with family over there have the same story.
Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
I'd love to go to Cuba...once the dictatorship is over, Fidel or no Fidel. I just hope that whatever happens and whoever is in power, that the transition to democratic rule is a nonviolent one. I teach a seventh grade Geography class, and it's a little depressing to teach that all of Latin America is (at least on paper) democratic except for Cuba. So much progress from civil war and authoritarian rule in Latin America since the 80s, and none in Cuba (or Haiti, but that's a different thread). I wonder what Kennedy or any of the other presidents that Fidel has outlasted would say if they knew he would still be in power through the 21st century.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I agree armsfalloffboy. I just want Cuba to have a real democracy. They don't have to be best friends with the USA. Infact they are closer to Europe who still does business with them.
As for non-violent revolution? In Portugal they had one of those. I think it's called Revolution of Flowers? The Cuban people are just terrified to revolt because Fidel has killed so many of them.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
You guys should become Canadian we can vacation in Cuba all we want. It's relatively cheap too. Funny that none of the poor Cubans are allowed into the 5 star resorts with the Canadians and Europeans.
I'm thinking of a prohibition era newsreel where it showed Babe Ruth wintering at a Havana casino pounding back the rum while shooting some craps (gotta keep that swing going in the off-season). I bet you that normal Cubans weren't allowed at the that resort either.
I find the whole execution of communist revolution hypocritical. Just an excuse to replace a bunch of Sugar Barons and their Old Church Allies with a new party of Communist cronies.
But maybe Castro providing universal education has provided the average Cuban the academic and philosophical tools to realize that the stated goals of the revolution are not what it has produced. I'm pretty sure that you can't fool people that are educated. I know there's been recent reports of the younger educated class asking difficult to answer questions to the Cuban officials. If this is the case, some of them are ready for a real democracy.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Tamper Lad, I agree with what you say. For the most part Cuba is well educated. Though I've seen some Cubans arrive here in Tampa that are not as educated as I thought and are a bit trashy.
One of my cousins have just arrived a few months back. She said the education is good but it is not as good as you would think. Some people get a pass no matter what. Much like American education some people who don't deserve to graduate are just pushed through the system. (her mother is a teacher and she is a nurse) She also said she agrees about some of them being trashy. She said the combination of being poor and desperate for so long affects some in bad ways. Doesn't matter what education they received. Which I can totally understand.
But compared to most Latin American countries Cuba has very good education.
Posted by RED-001 on :
Anybody care to comment on my little bit of trivia? Well let me tell you that Castro is the type with no sense of humor,no interest in press freedoms,and no appetite for criticism or artful satire!
Do you find it odd for a national leader like Fidel Castro to relentlessly persecute cartoonist like Antonio Prohias?
All this can found in the 2001 book Spy VS.Spy-The Complete Casebook along with Prohias' pre-Spy cartoons!
Posted by Vee on :
Red, thanks for the trivia. I had no idea that the creator of Spy VS Spy was a Cuban exile. But no, I don't find it odd that Castro relentlessly persecuted him and others. Castro and his cohorts have never permitted any sort of dissent. Making fun of him, his family or the government has always been considered a crime against the state in Castro's Cuba.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: You guys should become Canadian we can vacation in Cuba all we want. It's relatively cheap too. Funny that none of the poor Cubans are allowed into the 5 star resorts with the Canadians and Europeans.
Sorry but I don't really find that too funny. They are not allowed in so that they don't get contaminated by mingling with the "wrong sorts of people" (i.e. anyone that thinks there may be something better than the system Castro has imposed)
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: I'm thinking of a prohibition era newsreel where it showed Babe Ruth wintering at a Havana casino pounding back the rum while shooting some craps (gotta keep that swing going in the off-season). I bet you that normal Cubans weren't allowed at the that resort either.
And you would be on the losing end of that bet. Cubans, pre Castro were not prohibited from entering any business establishment. Tropicana and many of the other casinos were patronized by Cubans but, as with all touristy attractions, the bulk of their business was from Americans and Europeans in Cuba on vacation or business. [/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: But maybe Castro providing universal education has provided the average Cuban the academic and philosophical tools to realize that the stated goals of the revolution are not what it has produced. I'm pretty sure that you can't fool people that are educated. I know there's been recent reports of the younger educated class asking difficult to answer questions to the Cuban officials. If this is the case, some of them are ready for a real democracy.
Just want to clear up some major misconception based on lies promulgated by Castro's regime.
Lie #1 ~ "Castro gave universal education to the Cubans." While he didn't take it away, he didn't "give" it. Cuba had a very liberal educational system pre-Castro. Anyone that wanted to attend college (after completing their 5 year Secondary education) was able to do so WITHOUT REGARD TO COST. College tuition was based on a sliding scale depending on ability to pay. Once you passed the entrance exams (which everyone was required to take) you simply had to demonstrate a financial need and your tuititon was set according to your ability to pay. Many people attended free of cost.
Lie #2 ~ "Castro provided free health care." Again he simply did not take it away but Cuba had free health care before Castro was born. Hospitals were government run and the care was free. All licensed physicians were required to work one day per week in the govenment hospitals providing pro bono health care. There were also private "clinicas" which you paid to join if you chose to do so. These private hospitals provided a full range of health care like the public facilities but offered more "pampering" (i.e. private rooms, the physician of your choice, etc.) The public hospitals remain today just like then but the "clinicas" were all forced to close down or were seized by the government as were most private businesses.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I disagree with none of the assessments of Castro here, but I would point out that even without Raul, it's not an all-or-nothing scenario, Castros/communists-or-democracy.
Remember that Castro rose to power by overthrowing a US-backed dictator, too. For most Cubans, as I understand it, life didn't change that much; only one elite replaced another.
Sorry to say this Kent, but it appears you are poorly informed. Things changed quite a lot when Castro took power. You are correct that Castro overthrew a dictator, Fulgencio Batista, and had lots of public support. However, what he gave the people was much worse than what he promised.
Under Batista, you could study your chosen field of academics, work in whatever job you chose, travel abroad at will, save money and better your life, buy property...in other words, life in Cuba was much like that in the US. In fact, the two countries were so similar demographically that many US companies used Cuba to test market their products before releasing them to the public in the US.
The one thing you couldn't do was agitate against Batista. If you did, you risked being jailed. As long as you weren't actively working to overthrow him or calling for his removal from the rooftops, you were very unlikely to have any problems.
All of that has changed under Castro. You don't own anything of value. It all belongs to the "people". You can't buy a house, you are given a place to live by the govenment. In many cases that place may be a single family house taken from someone else which you will now share with three other families.
You can't choose your profession. The government decides what you can and cannot become. If they need doctors, you are trained to be a doctor. If they need plumbers, you are trained to be a plumber.
Your job is provided by the govenment and it can take it away whenever it wants...for whatever reason it wants. When the govenment needs to harvest sugar cane, all city workers are "asked" to "volunteer" a week harvesting cane. If you don't "volunteer" and particpate in the harvest, your supervisor will inquire about your failure to attend and you'd better have a damn good reason or you will pay some sort of price. It could be being transfered to the night shift, or loss of a promotion, or even dismissal.
You are required to vote in national and regional elections. Failure to do so is a crime and can also affect your life significantly. Of course, you only have one slate of candidates for which to vote and you can not write in someone else. The slate is composed of official party candidates. You have no options. (Ever wondered why the voter turnout in Cuba is so high? Now you know.)
There is a Committee For the Defense of the Revolution which has a representative in each neighborhood. They are charged with keeping an eye on their neighbors and reporting any activities "detrimental to the revolution" As an example, early on in Castro regime, metal & glass containers were scarce. People were required to recycle cans and bottles for reuse. As an act of civil disobedience, many people crushed the cans and broke the bottles. If they were caught doing so by the Committeememebr they could be jailed, or lose their ration coupons, or lose their jobs. The committee mebers spied on everyone in the neighborhood and reported any suspicious activities to the govenment.
In schools, children were taught that it was important to report their parents if they were involved in any counter revolutionary activities (like breaking bottles) so that thye government could "get their parents the help and re-education they needed."
Children were also taught that there was no God for them to count on or trust in. They could only depend on Castro and the government. How did they get this message across to these kids? Quite simple. Teachers would tell their students to close their eyes and ask God for some candy (which was in scarce supply and hardly ever available for kids to enjoy) Of course when they opened their eyes, there was no candy. Then the teacher would tell them to close their eyes and ask Fidel for some candy. While these little kids did as they were told, the teacher would walk around and place a candy on each desk. And so the lesson was taught.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: The old elite, and their children and grandchildren, waiting in the wings in south Florida do not give the impression that they any more demcracy-oriented than any other Cuban regime; they seem to expect they will just power-boat back to Cuba someday and resume their own regime.
This may be true for some but it's very unfair of you to paint all the Cuban exiles with the same brush. First of all, very very very few Cubans came here with more than the clothes on their backs.
When my parents, brother and I left Cuba in 1962 we were allowed to leave with one change of clothes each. My mother was allowed to take one piece of personal jewelry with her. She was forced to choose between her engagement ring and her wedding band. All four of us were strip searched in the middle of terminal to ensure that we didn't have anything of value hidden away on our bodies. This was done to everyone that was leaving because we were branded "guzanos" (worms) and considered traitors to the revolution.
No one came here as a wealthy emigre. Everything that the "old elite" has was earned here by hard work. My father was a commercial artist and my mother a stay at home mom in Cuba. Once here, she went to work in factories to help put food on our table, working the overnight shift so she could be home when we awoke & went off to school and still be there when we came home. She would leave for work after feeding us dinner just as my dad made it home from his job in NYC. We hardly would classify as wealthy by any means.
Does the exile community have plans for Cuba once Castro is gone? Sure, lots and lots of plans and ideas. Everyone has their own thoughts and you can hear dozens and dozens debated and argued every day at hundreds of little coffee shops and restaurants in Miami and all of the world. We're no different than the typical American. Everyone in the US has their own thoughts about the the government should be like. Some just talk about it, some vote based on it, and a small handful run for office and try to implement it. The same will happen one day in Cuba I imagine.
As for me? I believe that the Cubans that were fortunate enough to escape the horror that is Castro's Cuba have a responsibility to help those that were left behind. When the change comes (and I hope it is soon and it is peaceful) we should use the resources we have been able to acquire to help re-establish a civil democratic society in Cuba. But the ones to make the decisions about their governance should be those that lived through hell in Cuba for the past 49 years. We're the lucky ones for all we went through and for all we left behind.
Posted by Tamper Lad on :
Oh no you misunderstand me Vee, I'm no fan of Communist Revolutionaries who hypocritically justify brutal actions in the name of revolutionary ideals that were abandoned as they got even a whiff of power. I used the word funny as an ironic criticism of the regime.
The resorts they've opened since the collapse of the artificial Communist trading system (where eastern Europe paid many times the world market price for sugar and the USSR gave away oil) collapsed has undoubtedly been the main source of the Castro government's foreign balance of payments.
Since I find it disturbing that the employees of resorts would be chosen by the government solely on loyalty to political ideology. I would not vacation in one of those resorts.
A vacation spot with a similar hypocrisy I would not vacation at are the resort casinos in the Maldives. The government there is only too happy to take in foreign gambling dollars on the beaches but the native population is not allowed into the resorts because of the strict Islamic laws (including a prohibition on gambling) they live under.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Tamper Lad: The resorts they've opened since the collapse of the artificial Communist trading system (where eastern Europe paid many times the world market price for sugar and the USSR gave away oil) collapsed has undoubtedly been the main source of the Castro government's foreign balance of payments.
You are exactly right. This is what has allowed Castro to survive the almost 50 year trade embargo after the collapse of the Soviet empire. One has to wonder if there would have been significant changes by now had all of this money not begun to flow into the country and helped to prop up Castro's regime.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
Thanks for the post Vee. You know much more about it than I do. I was born in the US in 75. My parents came about 10 years before that (seperately). Actually my father came over in the early 70s when him and group of fishermen jumped off the boat to swim twenty miles to Mexico. Some of the fisherman were shot while swimming away by the guards on the ship. His brother was executed in 89 during the Ochoa fiasco.
You lived there and know much more about than I do. I get a bit passionate about it just because people don't know all the atrocities Fidel and Che committed. When I see someone with a Save Tibet sticker defending Che or Castro I just get really confused.
It's nice to see Cubans like you want to help the Cubans there. I admit my family has largely cut ties. Most of my family came over so I guess we were lucky. Thanks for the info.
RED, I didn't even know who the cartoonist was (though I've heard of Spy vs. Spy). Interesting info. thanks.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I was never describing all Cuban exiles, merely the elite. I am aware of the differnce, and I think I have been unfairly mischaracterized.
Thank you, Vee and Jorge, for your perspectives. They partially agree and partially disagree with other things I have heard from Cuban exiles and their descendants.
I am not going to debate the issues further because they are clearly subjects you both feel more pationate about than I, and I have no wish to be mischaracterized again.
Posted by Vee on :
Jorge, I know what you mean about people defending Che or Castro. I recall getting into numerous arguements with people when Castro was treated like a conquering hero at the Abyssinian Baptist Church in NYC when he visited New York to address the UN. This was around the time that that Nelson Mandela had just been freed from jail in South Africa (or just before that, I can't be sure)
I remember asking one person who was defending the church congregation and community leaders for treating him as a saint how they would feel if a Cuban congregation in Miami had hosted one of the white South African Presidents at their church and treated him that way. They were dumbfounded and immediately claimed that it wasn't the same thing at all. Then they accused me of being racist for even suggesting it.
It's curious how blind some people can be to the truth when they don't want to see it. Castro and all his cohorts (including Che) are as evil as can be. They have tortured and killed thousands upon thousands of Cubans in the past 49 years and caused untold misery to millions. They have fomented vicious revolutions across Central & South America which have caused thousands of other deaths and kept millions more in fear and despair.
How do you rank evil? I don't know that you can. But I do know that Fidel and company rank up there with the most evil men of all time.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I was never describing all Cuban exiles, merely the elite. I am aware of the differnce, and I think I have been unfairly mischaracterized.
Thank you, Vee and Jorge, for your perspectives. They partially agree and partially disagree with other things I have heard from Cuban exiles and their descendants.
I am not going to debate the issues further because they are clearly subjects you both feel more pationate about than I, and I have no wish to be mischaracterized again.
If I misunderstood and mischaracterized your comments then I apologize, Kent. It certainly was not my intention to do so.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
thanks, Vee. I didn't think you would do so deliberately, but looking back on what I posted, I can see how one could make the leap.
I grew up across the street from a Cuban exile family; they were no more wealthy or 'elite' than you or I.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Funny that none of the poor Cubans are allowed into the 5 star resorts with the Canadians and Europeans.![[Smile]](smile.gif)