Apparently enough to kill for... Posted by Dev Em on :
People like this is why we need a very regulated death penelty.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Death penalty hell, just take'm out and do to them what they did to those folk. Better yet, do it like in the old days when they would have been hung from the gallows and let the entire town watch.
(and please, no comments about racism. I don't give a rat's ass about their skin color. They beat six people to death and then stabbed them. One woman wasn't even recognizable by her dental records.)
Posted by Beagz on :
Sorry, people.
But after what those animals did, death is too good for them.
Posted by Blacula on :
Sorry - but as disgusting as the things those people did are... I see only a very fine line between them and a couple of the comments in this thread.
Normally I'm against the death penalty but when I read that article I thought that maybe its not such a bad thing when its employed fairly and as humanely as possible?
But to read that some people here would actually *like* to see dead bodies hanging in the middle of their town (!), or that these people be tortured before death... well there goes any illusion of a civilised society.
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: People like this is why we need a very regulated death penelty.
Posted by Beagz on :
Not necessarily "tortured."
But they should be forced to look at the before and after photos of their work.
And they should be forced to hear about their victims, and witness some of the anguish those families are forced to go through.
Not that it would make a big impact on them, but maybe a little of it would soak in through all that rage and hatred.
If that's classified as "torture," then so be it.
Posted by Pov on :
The thing is, the death penalty's too humane for sickos like this. They bashed six people to death with bats. And the worst they would face is death by lethal injection, probably.
I say fire up Old Sparky and forget to wet the sponge, ala "Green Mile"...
And Blackie... "Do unto others", my friend.
These animals weren't showing any pretense of civility in their actions. They deserve none in return.
Posted by Beagz on :
Serving some actual hard time, working in fields, contributing back to society, might not be so bad, either.
(And if William Wayne Justice doesn't like it, he can join 'em!!!!! William Wayne Justice was the one that ruled "black and white televisions were cruel and unusual punishment, therefore all the televisions in prison must be color" or something along those lines.)
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
No, I'd say any claim to a "civilized" society was shot to hell when they beat to death, then stabbed to death six people over a friggin' xbox.
That is the line of demarcation for a civilized society.
And back in the old days, those bodies were hung in the town square to show others what happened when you did something like that. It wasn't for fun or amusement, and it wasn't torture for torture's sake. It was a warning.
And no matter what people think, the bad old days weren't as bad then as it is now. The ratio of crime to pop steadily increased over the last century.
Seems to me one of the reasons was that people started getting the idea that "Hey, i can murder someone and the worst i get is twelve years with good behavior."
Little to no consequences means people are even freer to commit henious acts and think they can get away with it.
I have no sympathy for them. My sympathy is reserved for the people they MURDERED!
Posted by Blacula on :
Dev Em - my initial post was not in reference to your comment.
Beagz - I wouldn't classify the punishment you described as torture, far from it. In fact its a form of punishment/rehabilitation I am in complete support of. Its still too early to say whether this method whereby the victims of crime confront their perpetrators is having much effect but so far the results seem to be positive for both sides. My house-mate went to a confrontation/reconciliation session with a serial house-burglar (not quite the same crime as the above case I grant you) which was attended not only by many of the other victims but by some of the perpetrators family as well. He said he found it to be a very interesting and cathartic experience and really felt the criminal had learned something from it. He was also struck by how bad things were for the criminal's otherwise perfectly normal/respectable family whom he considered to be the 'silent victims' in the whole affair.
Pov - Its not often that I hear the death penalty described as 'too humane'! Are you seriously suggesting someone bludgens these guys to death with baseball bats? Is that something *you* would be prepared to do? I would be 1000 times more scared of someone who could do that in a calm and clinical executorial manner than these guys who probably did it while in the heat of anger or while high on drink or drugs or something. Also, I find it a bit disturbing that you would twist Jesus' ultimate message of peace "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" into a mantra of revenge...! Finally, we're supposed to be better than animals. These guys may not be, but that doesn't mean we should sink to their level.
Rickshaw1 - I don't have access to the statistics on the crime to population ratio that you do but I cannot believe for a second that hanging dead bodies in the street for *everyone* to see could have any effect other than a *BAD* one! After all, public executions are still fairly common in some Middle-Eastern countries... and look how well they're doing! And I find it a bit scary that you consider death to be a punishment of 'little to no consequence'. Are you suggesting we return to the Dark Ages and start boiling alive our criminals or something?
Also, can everyone please quit suggesting that these people were just killed for their X-Box. That was just the journalist coming up with a catchy headline and by reading the article it is obvious that there was a lot more to it than that.
Now before anyone goes painting me as a bleeding-heart, liberal peace-nick - I'm not! My politics may lean a little left but on most issues I'm fairly middle-of-the-road. I'm just very wary of the burning-pitchfork, mob-revenge mentality that always seems to creep out when horrible events like this occur.
And yes I do have complete and total sympathy for the victims in this case, and their families, and hope that the criminals get prosecuted to the full extent of the law!
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Twelve years with time off for good behavior IS little to no consequence. They would still be alive. Their victims are DEAD!
And why do you keep *everyone*-ing. Yes, everyone. From little kids to adults. You kill someone for no good reason, you get punished like the no good you are. Simple.
No one held a gun to those animals heads and made them beat someone to death. And while you may be more scared of someone that could do it in a calm and clinical manner, i suggest you watch or read "the Virginian". Hard times make hard choices. And this is one of the hardest times i can think of when it comes to crime.
[ August 10, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: rickshaw1 ]
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: And why do you keep *everyone*-ing.
Confused. Are you referring to my use of the word 'everyone'? If so, why? I only used it twice in my post and in completely different circumstances. Or are you referring to the stars? Some people italicise or bold the words they want to emphasise, I put stars around them. Is that a problem?
Anyway, maybe I'm missing something but where are you getting this '12 years with time off for good behaviour' information. It can't be in reference to this case because they've only just been arrested and are therefore nowhere near sentencing. And I highly doubt that Florida just has a standard 12 year sentence for all crimes of this nature. No, the best these guys can hope for if found guilty is either life in prison (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is at least 20 years) or else the death penalty (assuming Florida has it). Those punishments are a far cry from "little to no consequence".
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Yes, everyone. From little kids to adults. You kill someone for no good reason, you get punished like the no good you are.
Except that the people you're actually punishing with your plan are all the innocent adults and children who really don't want to see dead bodies hanging from the lampposts of their town. The criminals will in fact be too kinda *dead* to notice.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
A few things here.
1st- no lampost. Have a gallows just like they used to have. It served a purpose. The body hung for a time so that those in the community could see that a) someone had been punished for their grevious transgressions, and b) so that young to old, people SAW what happened to those that randomly killed people for exceedingly stupid reasons.
2nd- yes, young and old. But as to the young...why would you not want them to see the manner of justice? Because they are young? Well, when is the appropriate age to start seeing the way the world works. Here in America the legal age is Eighteen. Should they be protected from every little thing until they are eighteen? If so, how do you teach them the differences between right and wrong, because you can't talk about wrong, it might "scar" them. And if you do wait until eighteen, how are they going to know how to be an adult in this world? They are just magically invested with adult experience and knowledge?
No, sorry, the world doesn't work this way. Childhood is for learning. It is for gathering the experiences and knowledge that you will use AS an adult to be a responsible member of the community.
Teaching isn't punishing. But, punishing can be teaching.
Posted by Dev Em on :
My three, almost four, year old does not need to see a person hanging in the street (gallows or lamppost)
She is not old enough to fully understand death, or the fact that someone can be killed for their crimes. She will soon enough, but not at this age.
The one funeral home she did go to led to a discusion that really went nowhere. She just did not comprehend this fact of life yet. And that is a good thing. She's innocent of death right now. That will be shattered soon enough in her life, when the time requires it.
It's not up to others to force me to "teach" my daughter things befoe she is ready to understand them.
It's bad enough that two of her best friends in the world have different forms of cancer. Both are younger than her, and both have been sick for more than a year. That took months of explanations to even to get her to start to actually comprehend what was going on.
Even then, she took the next logical step for a child and thought I had cancer (or was sick like her friends) because I too have to take medicine everyday (Diabetic).
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
And that is exactly the point at which you, as a responsible parent, decide whether or not to take your child past the area those bodies can be seen.
See, you have a responsibility as well. No one disputes that. In this day and age, it's refreshing to find someone that actually DOES acknowledge that they have responsibilities.
But to not have punishment shown in the open light is to stick it in the darkness, to hide behind prison walls where anything may happen. Things need to be shown, so that all know what has happened. What has taken place. Not hidden in the dark and made shameful. Its not shameful to demand an accounting, what is shameful is allowing murderers that brutally beat six people to death fifteen years of life IF they were to receive the death penalty, and have the people of that state pay for them.
Posted by Dev Em on :
Where exactly would you have these bodies on display at.
To have them in public areas means that there are places that I could not go with my child. I should not have to inconvenience myself to travel somewhere to avoid seeing a dead body.
Not to mention that I may just not want to see a dead body when I go out to eat with my wife...nothing to do with my daughter. Nice romantic stroll through the park...don't look over there though.
Of course I have a responsibility as a parent. I too wish more people accepted this when they decide to have children.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Shouldn't have to inconvience yourself?
There is a price to pay for freedom, and a price to pay for justice in society. Not wanting it because you might have to go a block or two out of the way to eat at your favorite chinese food restuarant? Now that is not a good arguement.
Thats like saying "well, i don't think we should track down those that don't pay their taxes. It only costs money in gas for them to do that."
No, everyone gets inconvienced at times to make society work. I have had to stand for jury duty before. Its not something most people want to do, but it is a price of Democracy.
Posted by Dev Em on :
Not the same thing at all. It's not solely about being inconvenienced.
I pay taxes, and expect the government to make sure everyone pays theirs as well. I think the police should do more about tracking down known criminals that have warrants for their arrest. I think Police have the right to give chase is a criminal speeds off when they attempt to pull them over.
This has nothing to do with our government doing their jobs, it has to do with not wanting to see criminal bodies hanging in the streets.
I would not be alone in not wanting my child to see these things. This would have a negative impact on businesses in the areas that the bodies are at. There's no getting around it.
Now, back to the question I asked you...where would you like to see the bodies at? The local mall...outside the courthouse...next to a church...across the street from a grade school?
Also...how long do we leave the corpses out there...are they exposed to the elements...what about public health issues...vandalism...
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Right outside the courthouse. I don't care if it is in the heart of the town, city, state, country, world.
And long enough for any and all that need to see it to see it. I'd say three weeks would be good.
Give the weather and the birds and the insect enough time to really do a good job on them.
But don't worry, it seems that more and more people don't want to be "inconvienced" like you. More and more aren't willing to even get up off their sorry asses and vote, much less do anything to contribute to society. More and more want everyone else to think for them, do for them, pay for them...basically, more and more want to be sheep led to the slaughter because they are not willing to actively engage themselves in the workings of society.
I had many people tell me that they hated clinton, but didn't vote. I have had many people tell me they hate Bush, but didn't vote. The simplest way to get your voice heard in america, and people don't want to be bothered, or inconvienced.
God we have become a sloven country.
Dev-em, this may not be you at all, other than not wanting your kids exposed to 'bodies', but it is all to true for more americans than not. And that is a fact. Less than half the eligible Americans vote in elections.
The rest of the world is killing itself trying to get to this country, for those basic liberties, for the best system of Justice in the world when applied correctly, and most of us here don't want to be inconvienced.
That is the true shame of america. Not that we would leave MURDERERS who used baseball bats to bludgeon innocent people to death hanging from the gallows.
Posted by Dev Em on :
I agree that the punks that did this should be put to death.
I've voted in every election I have been able to since turning 18...I may not always know everything about the candidates,,,but I generally know enough to make a decision.
Personally...if it was just me...I wouldn't really care. I just tend to think of children more because I have one, and also work with kids at my church.
The one thing to take into account is that there are groupss out there that would stop it before it started. Not that I agree with the tactics of such groups...they're there.
I am however for public executions, if it was highly regulated to insure guilt (such in this case if they are fould guilty...Dahmer...Gacy, etc). It could be a way to compensate the families of the victims. Make it pay for view...
And for those out there that say "who would throw the switch...". I would, and sleep very well at night.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Agreed.
Posted by Blacula on :
I find some of the ideas presented in this thread to be quite scary (and I can't believe no one else has piped up to comment about them as well) so I'm going to drop out of this conversation now with these 2 final thoughts...
I completely disagree with nearly everything rickshaw1 has written here
and
I'm really glad I don't live in the same town as him in case some of his warped ideas ever come to pass.
[ August 15, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Blacula ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
And thats quite all right with me Blacula. That is what america is about...the right to believe different things.
It scares me that you want to live in a world where murderers will eventually be free to kill innocent people again just to salve your concience, that you don't want to have the burden of tough choices, that you want innocent people to bear the burden of over $300,000 a year to house one prisoner (from the last figures i saw).
That scares me a lot more than someone that has the fortitude to make the tough decisions in life, and not lay them off at the feet of others.
And I as well retire from this discussion. I think the salient points have been made.
Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: I find some of the ideas presented in this thread to be quite scary (and I can't believe no one else has piped up to comment about them as well) so I'm going to drop out of this conversation now with these 2 final thoughts...
I completely disagree with nearly everything rickshaw1 has written here
and
I'm really glad I don't live in the same town as him in case some of his warped ideas ever come to pass.
Blacula, I'll pipe up since you asked. I agree with you. The reason I haven't said anything is because I find what has been written here to be truly scary as well. This talk of hanging bodies in public squares is barbaric at best. At first I just thought it was outrageousness for the sake of argument. However, when it continued with obvious sincerity, I became very troubled. I tried to ignore this thread, hoping it would just end and be forgotten about. I speak up now only to let you know, Blacula, that you are not the only one who feels this way.
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