posted
This thread is really saddening me as I read through it. I've always enjoyed interacting with Kent/Sean over the past several years when I returned to LW after a long sabbatical (that had absolutely nothing to do with any disillusionment with this site, btw). I've seen his disenchantment developing over the last year or more, and I'm sad that it's gone this far. Sean, I hope you know that I'll always value your friendship if this is truly curtains for you and this site. I still often find myself missing numerous posters who've left over the years for reasons known and unknown. To see someone depart in such acrimonious circumstances is especially disheartening.
The saddest part here, guys, is that you're ALL right! What all of you are feeling surrounding this bombastic issue is dictated by your own individual emotional and logical reactions to it. I can see all sides and find salient points all around. Maybe I'm just too wishy-washy? I dunno. I guess that's why I'd describe myself as a moderate, I suppose.
I'd say from my point of view, however, that this debate is past saving, at least beyond the principle people who disagree with each other. No one's mind is going to be changed from this point, and the pot shots are increasing and escalating. If I were a moderator on this forum, I'd be tempted to close the topic, frankly. If the discourse was more polite and not degenerating, I'd not feel that way, but it simply is degenerating!
Some issues, it seems, are too emotionally-charged and too divisive to control, even on a forum that is one where cooler heads traditionally prevail. I'm not taking one side or the other or placing blame on any one poster over any of the others. Though I started this post lamenting Sean's departure, please do not take that as my endorsing his side over the other, or vice versa.
This is simply escalating out of control with name-calling, insults and character attacks prevailing among the principles. I like all of you guys and don't want to see it go any further. We're past the point where this can be productive, in my opinion.
This forum is foremost about RESPECT. I'd suggest that we respect that, agree to disagree and move on before things get any worse.
Love you all, guys.
-Anthony
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: [QUOTE] In any case, I am done. I've spoken my bit....
I'd hope LW could be something where honest discussion could be appreciated, that we can do more than "Who's your favorite Legionnaire?" or playing games.
But maybe...I'm the one who really does not belong here.
Farewell.
Wow. In just over a year, we found 617 things to post in the "1001 Things That Go Wrong in Kent Shakespeare's Absence" thread. I bet we reach 1001 in the next two weeks!
Save us, Kent, from that horrible fate. Ask yourself, "What would Kent Shakespeare do?"
;-)
-------------------- "Been killed--didn't like it." (Duplicate Damsel, Legion of Super-Heroes #10)
From: Groga | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: I'd say from my point of view, however, that this debate is past saving, at least beyond the principle people who disagree with each other.... If I were a moderator on this forum, I'd be tempted to close the topic, frankly. If the discourse was more polite and not degenerating, I'd not feel that way, but it simply is degenerating!
...I like all of you guys and don't want to see it go any further. We're past the point where this can be productive, in my opinion.
This forum is foremost about RESPECT. I'd suggest that we respect that, agree to disagree and move on before things get any worse.
Lardy, you're right that the conversation is deteriorating. And maybe it would be good to close the thread. But closing it would leave folks to walk away wounded without a place to work toward reconciliation. Maybe reconciliation won't happen...but it might, and it would be good.
-------------------- "Been killed--didn't like it." (Duplicate Damsel, Legion of Super-Heroes #10)
From: Groga | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
LT, I'd rather everyone reconcile, but I'm not seeing things moving anywhere near that goal--in the opposite direction, in fact. I don't have the power to close this thread. I'm not entirely sure if that's the best solution. All I know is that the alternatives are dwindling, IMO.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
The thread has become a little passionate, sure. But that's to be expected when one considers the the scope of the subject being debated.
Everyone will be fine.
Registered: Dec 2006
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
I'm hoping Kent will come back after things have had time to cool down.
Now, if you'll all excuse me, I need to get to work on my new avatar, which naturally will feature a giant hammer and sickle.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: I can see all sides and find salient points all around. Maybe I'm just too wishy-washy? I dunno. I guess that's why I'd describe myself as a moderate, I suppose.
I get accused by my friends of being a fence-sitter all the time and it really frustrates me.
I sometimes feel like saying "What's wrong with seeing both sides of an issue?"
And since I have friends on the right and the left it often leaves me having to argue a point I don't necessarily agree with just to provide some balance to the subject.
I don't think every argument/discussion has two equally valid sides though - for example, I think the argument about civil rights (whether it be racial or sexual or gender or whatever - and yes, I'm including gay marriage in that) only has a right side and a wrong side... and those on the wrong side are just too scared or ignorant or selfish to realise it.
But the discussion in this thread (what I can follow of it - it still basically boils down to "War, war, what is it good for?" right?) is of course a complex one with many sides - a lot of them valid.
I'm too conflicted within my own mind about where I stand on this issue to offer much insight though.
On the one hand, I'm a Hank Hall - wanting to see the dangerous tyrants of the world put out of commission so that the people suffering under them can experience freedom (oh, how I wish Kim Jong Il, Robert Mugabe and that Belarussian dictator would face horrible retribution for their terrible crimes).
But on the other hand I'm a Don Hall - knowing what an awful course of action war is and seriously wondering if the ends ever justify the means. Could the horrific death toll of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan ever justify anything?
Something I'm finding very interesting at the moment, though, is the fantastic sign of democratic change that is occurring in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria and elsewhere around the Middle East. It's a demonstration that the people in those countries are able to bring about regime change on their own (or with structural support from NATO) and don't necessarily need invading foreign forces to do so.
It makes me wonder whether on Earth-2, where the West never invaded either country, Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't also now be relatively peacefully freeing themselves of Saddam Hussein and the Taliban - and therefore saving that planet the hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of dollars that these two endless wars have cost ours.
[ May 05, 2011, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: Blacula ]
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: Now, if you'll all excuse me, I need to get to work on my new avatar, which naturally will feature a giant hammer and sickle.
Hmmm, I always pictured you more as an exotic Bond girl, cleome. You know, the type who starts off all smart and aloofy before James and his big capitalistic "gun" shows you the error of your ways.
(you do have a charmingly indescribable accent, right?)
Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:I'm not angry at anyone here. It's just... I keep rereading my posts now looking for where I ever implied that it was perfectly okay for Bin Laden to do what he did. And... I'm not finding that, anywhere.
You may not be saying it's OK for Osama bin Laden to do what he did, but you definitely seemed to be saying that the fact that the US trained him (and other Muslim fighters) in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets as our proxies made it wrong for the US to seek justice when he turned on the US.
US foreign policy history is hardly perfect. But the specific grievances that Osama bin Laden accused to US of are a completely twisted view of events. His world view has been shaped by people who hate the idea of religious freedom, not by the US government which constitutionally protects such for its citizens.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller: ...You may not be saying it's OK for Osama bin Laden to do what he did, but you definitely seemed to be saying that the fact that the US trained him (and other Muslim fighters) in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets as our proxies made it wrong for the US to seek justice when he turned on the US...
Uh, what do they say over on the Wikipedia boards?
Oh, yeah.
CITATION NEEDED
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Ram Boy:
...(you do have a charmingly indescribable accent, right?)
Yeah, if by "indescribable" you mean "Richard Lewis, only with one nostril plugged up."
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Citation: this quote comes from the very first page of this thread:
quote:The American "leadership" who cultivated a relationship with the man knew all along what he was. So, yes, it is hypocritical [to consider him an enemy after he attacked the US].
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Uh, what?
The hypocrisy comes from cultivating relationships with amoral people and then acting surprised when they turn on you.
The hypocrisy comes from claiming to want peace while repeating this cycle over and over and over again.
The hypocrisy comes from claiming the moral high ground while repeatedly wallowing in the mud with horrible people like Bin Laden for the sake of the almighty dollar.
Really, between your willful distortions here and rickshaw1's dark mutterings about ZOMFG!COMMIES!!11, I'm not real impressed.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I wasn't making an intentional distortion; I genuinely thought that your accusation of hypocrisy was in regard to America's treatment of bin Laden after he turned against the USA, not merely their "surprise" that he turned against the USA.
That said, I still think you're wrong in most of what you're saying here, but as long as you're cool with the fact that the US military got the bastard, I really don't have the will to spread the argument to more general areas of political philosophy.
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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