posted
Well, Kent, I guess you won't be seeing this response, but, for the benefit of anyone else who's still reading, here goes.
No one ever said you, cleome, or anyone else were "not allowed" to bring in other contexts. You did so just fine. But airing your views means inviting a response from others who agree with you, disagree with you, and (yes) misunderstand you. That's the risk we all take.
Did I misunderstand your views? Did I "deflect" them into something I could more easily "dismiss"? I dunno. It's possible. I'm working through the paradigms of my own understanding of the world, as we all are.
Communication is a difficult process, at best. In order to communicate effectively, the sender must work through the messages in one's own brain that distract, distort, protect the ego, and find the right words for the audience. Unfortunately, the receiver has to go through the same process. It's all very messy and can easily go awry.
That's why it requires patience and a willingness to explain and explain again. A willingness to stick with an issue until the truth that is being conveyed is uncovered.
Unfortunately, you seem to be out of patience. This is unfortunate.
It is also unfortunate that you've had to put up with "plenty of people [who] are so well insulated into unconditional support of the status quo that there is no room for question, and any challenge to said way of thinking must be twisted into a shape that makes it easier to dismiss out of hand."
If this is your opinion of me, I think you've gravely misunderstood my intent (which may be my fault). If it's your opinion of LW, I think you're dead wrong.
Look, you're an intelligent guy, too, and you obviously know more about foreign policy and U.S. history than most of us. But rather than using this as an opportunity to educate us, you lose your temper and resign. You complaign that others misunderstand your views, yet you went to great lengths to demolish Candlelight's views a page ago. This gives the impression that you can dish it out but you can't take it.
But what do I know? I'm just one of those insular people who dismisses things I don't like to hear.
I'm sorry if it was my post that drove you away from LW.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Out of respect to you, He Who LSHes, I will reply on my way out the door. Yes, I was heated before, but I'm still heading out, and not entirely because of this thread. This was just the straw on the camel's back.
2 pages ago, I thought I was addressing my issues with Candle one-by-one, in a reasonably cohesive way. In return, between then and my last post, I saw only a collection of efforts by several people to boil my content down into a bare-bones summary... a summary which not only did I not intend, but looking back at my post, I could find no basis at all for.
I realize despite my general effort/intention to civilly rebut Candle, there were some things I could have phrased better. But I did address her points, not merely boil them down into a bundle and shunt them aside, as it seems like most people (other than cleome) were doing, even Quis (although less so).
And yes, Rick's more blatant dismissal attempt (no matter how he tries to back away from it, after getting called on it) did bleed over into my other responses, especially into my 'farewell.' Not so much into my response to you (I should have separated them into two posts; I certainly can see in retrospect how, despite my "***" separation, the two could seem linked). Rather than "dish it out but not take it," I saw virtually no effort (except for Quis, somewhat) to address me as thoughtfully as I think/thought I had approached Candle. Instead, I got a caricature, a straw man of what I said. Hardly an apples-apples comparison as to what is being dished, in my view.
Imagine if someone boiled down your posts into "He Who LSHes is glad to see a dead Arab," with no further context or explanation, not then the name of the Arab in question. That's what happens when you reduce things too far. That's how it seemed you, Rick and even Quis were reducing me.
So yes, not only the group of you collectively, but some of your posts appeared to me as deflection and/or false reductionism. Perhaps not as blatant as Rick's, but deflection nonetheless. Combined with the content of your reply, and the similar reductionism down to 'America bashing,' it truly came across like a compartmentalization of what I said into terms easier for you to dismiss. And essentially doing it as a group suggested (and frankly still suggests) no room for negotiation.
I would gladly stay and join in a meaningful dialogue, but it seems to me of questionable point. Either (a) I am a greater failure than I realize as a communicator, or (b) my snap judgment on the cultural reinforcement which at least several of you share does insulate at least some of you from what I have to say.
So, with no one listening, it seemed like a good place to leave. Yes, communication is inexact and can be difficult, but it also requires a bridge to meet halfway on. I really do not see such a bridge. Nor can I be the only one to try to make the crossing. And despite the goodwill of your last post, it comes as too little, too late. The ship has sailed.
But if you want to dish it out at me, fine. I'll stop by now and again to read it all. Say what you will, tear me apart. Whatever you want. It really seems you don't actually need me here to construct a position for me anyway.
Legion World has usually been a magnificent place, a place to relax, have fun and bond with friends. But in the past year or so, in my perception at least, there have been people who have lessened my appreciation for being here, particularly on the LSH forum. Yes, I could debate them and hold my ground over and over again, but frankly that's not why I come here. Yes, a political threat is inherently a more contentious type of thread, and one should expect some back-and-forth, and I did. And I would stay and clarify, overcome misunderstandings, if I saw even the slightest intention of reciprocality, but I am not going to explain anything again and again when the only listening going on is mining for content in order to misrepresent. Please note that I did make such an attempt with Quis; he's the only one who made the effort. And, by his own words, he seems to be out of this thread.
Rick's ridiculous "Let's see you do better! Nyah!" challenge, combined with some of his other recent Rickisms, and the realization that no one (except cleome, who was already of a like mind) could even be bothered to address one single salient point I'd raised - yet everyone (again, except cleome) made the effort to misrepresent me - leads me to believe there is no point to even try here. I've tried to think well of Rick over the years, despite some of the things he's come up with, but this time his BS was the last straw. Not your post on its own, HWL, incidentally. And thank you for the bulk of your last post.
(and Rick, it's hard to buy that "meant well" line in the context of the parameters you were trying to impose. Whether you admit it or not, to us or yourself, you were trying to steer/control the discussion to the very generalizations you made in your last post. Take it as name-calling if you need to, but BS is BS. If you don't want to be called on it, don't do it)
If I ever return to LW, sure, I'll join in the fun little games, add in my jokes and such. But other than those of you I've met in real life, and a few whom I would still like to meet, I'll know better than to try to engage in a genuine, mutual discussion.
And lastly, I will apologize to Candle if I stepped too far in my response to you.
take care, one and all.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Kent,
Damn.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: and yet one of the greatest mass murdering systems the world has ever known, communism...
And this is the point where I pretty much lose interest in your arguments, Dude. Because this doesn't really have squat to do with what I'm talking about.
Disliking my native land's foreign policy has exactly jack to do with any desire to idolize the government of the former Soviet Union.
Please.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: ...Thanks for the link to Andrea LeBlanc's article, "America after Osama bin Laden." She is correct that bin Laden's death ultimately changes nothing. It does not bring back her husband or the others lost in 9/11...
No problem. I think it's important to keep this kind of thing in mind. Some people do take the high road, no matter how badly they're hurting. I'm not saying that I could do it, in the same possition. But I would like to believe that it's possible.
quote:...But I have to ask, how would closure or justice look to you?
I don't know that it's achievable. How many people are still trying to argue about Vietnam? The U.S. Civil War? I don't even know that I have words for what that would look like.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm very happy that Osama Bid Laden is dead. On the one hand, I aspire to be the kind of person who never wishes death on anyone, but on the other hand, if I personally saw Osama Bin Laden across the room, I might actually have tried to kill him.
But I think we've moved quite a bit off topic here in terms of tone, if not subject matter.
Both Kent and Cleome bring up good points and they are certainly valid points. Their comments are certainly not worthy of being dismissed. Sure, the thread is mainly about Osama Bin Laden, but it isn’t too far of a step to talk about the War on Terror, and therefore, it certainly isn’t much farther of a step to discuss the more complex factors that feed into the War on Terror. Sure, most of the country is delighted he’s dead, and teenagers were cheering in the streets and lots of people we all know (maybe even some of us) have wished they riddled his body with bullets or dragged it from the back of a horse through the streets or something. But just because there is a sense of elation right now, doesn’t give us cause to ignore or dismiss more complex and difficult ideas. There is no “we deserve this” in this thread; we’re all adults and any topic may breed some intellectual discourse. It’s good that opposing viewpoints, especially those that really get into the more abstract notions, are added to the discourse.
It’s clear there are some opposing views here and that’s fine. They are all equally relevant.
Thank You for this, Cobie.
I'm not angry at anyone here. It's just... I keep rereading my posts now looking for where I ever implied that it was perfectly okay for Bin Laden to do what he did. And... I'm not finding that, anywhere.
That's a little dispiriting, you know. Writing one thing and having it reach the other person's screen as something else entirely.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Unfortunately Cleome, that is the way of the internet. Things that would come across one way if we were to actually be in the same room and talking to each other, seem to loose something in the interpretation by others through the portal of our monitors. The blessing of being able to meet and converse with people from everywhere is also the curse of not having the true intonations of things said (typed) in cyberspace. Intonation can change a sentence in dramatic ways...and the internal intonations a reader gives your sentences dictates how they 'hear' them.
As far as Osama Bin Laden, I too am glad that this man is gone, and no longer out there trying to think of new ways to try and kill anyone that he thought deserved it...which seems to be most of the worlds population. We armed the him and the Afghans, and that totally bit us in the arse. Will we (the USofA) do something like that again...unfortunatelyit's a likely scenario. Unless there is a massive retooling of our government...which I do not see happening any time soon...again unfortunately.
My personal political views have changed drasticvally over the years, and the changes seem to be happening faster and more severe the older I get. Funny thing is, my Liberal friends would think I am conservative, and my Conservative friends would think I am liberal...when in truth, they are both correct. My views are my own and almost guarenteed to offend someone I know...ah well.
I try to keep up with things (world politics and the like), but in todays day and age of information overload...plus raising two kids (and trying to figure out how to help my daughter with 'new math' - which is in and of itself a full time undertaking)) and doing the other things that I like to do (or need to do), I just do not have the time I'd like to devote to it...or the other 15+ things I want to get into doing more of.
I lost a lot of the blind flag waving view way back when I took a class in college about Japan...and got a whole new perspective of WWII, and why they did what they did. Made me fully realize that history is a skewed thing...something that I had known before, but that really opened my eyes.
As a matter of fact, some of my posts have been misrepresented in previous discussions. I have tried to address those misrepresentations while not judging too quickly the people who made them. I've tried to give everyone the benefit of a doubt while acknowledging that I may be partly responsible for the misunderstanding.
You say no one was listening. Well, we were, in fact, listening -- perhaps not in the manner you wanted. Frankly, you do come off as a bit contemptuous toward those who disagree with you and condescending over our inability to grasp the finer points of your point-by-point rebuttals. And now that you are leaving and (apparently) not going to respond to any further "dishing out" you get to claim the high road. Frankly, this seems self-serving.
I find it ironic that it took a thread about Osama bin Laden to bring all this to the fore. LW as a collective has weathered discussions on politics, outing, and every conceivable LSH topic. So, it took a dead terrorist to bring out heated exchanges, differing views and "reductions" of those views to make you quit.
I almost regret starting this thread. It was intended just to let people know the breaking news as I had learned it. Earlier, some of us had discussed the recent lack of excitement on the board. I had no idea that this thread would overcompensate by putting people at logger-heads.
Bin Laden is not worth it.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Rick's ridiculous "Let's see you do better! Nyah!" challenge, combined with some of his other recent Rickisms, and the realization that no one (except cleome, who was already of a like mind) could even be bothered to address one single salient point I'd raised - yet everyone (again, except cleome) made the effort to misrepresent me - leads me to believe there is no point to even try here. I've tried to think well of Rick over the years, despite some of the things he's come up with, but this time his BS was the last straw. Not your post on its own, HWL, incidentally. And thank you for the bulk of your last post.
(and Rick, it's hard to buy that "meant well" line in the context of the parameters you were trying to impose. Whether you admit it or not, to us or yourself, you were trying to steer/control the discussion to the very generalizations you made in your last post. Take it as name-calling if you need to, but BS is BS. If you don't want to be called on it, don't do it)
If I ever return to LW, sure, I'll join in the fun little games, add in my jokes and such. But other than those of you I've met in real life, and a few whom I would still like to meet, I'll know better than to try to engage in a genuine, mutual discussion."
Well, thats dramatic.
so, setting aside the personal attack on me, which I haven't done to you, by the way, lets get to the meet of this.
"of like mind".
that's the real crux of the matter.
Even in threads I haven't been a part of, you've been much more contentious lately with other posters here that haven't agreed with you. But this thread must be the straw because people here much more respected and liked than I am ... are not agreeing with you. They aren't saying you are wrong, just not agreeing with you.
You seem to have wanted everyone to be on board the Kent bandwagon, and some very well respected members aren't. Well, thats the real problem with other people, isn't it? they tend to have opinions of their own that don't necessarily jibe with yours.
Most people here just put up with me. I'm the odd man out voice than can be counted on for a laugh at best, joked about at worst. "Oh, it's just a Rickism." to paraphrase you.
And lem'me tell ya, it ain't always easy coming to a place you mostly like, but know that your ideas and beliefs are generally disliked or made fun of by those you like.
But, you claim to be open minded here, you better be able to back it up. You, Kent, think I'm closeminded...but I'm willing to listen, and over time I've tried to adapt to the spirit of the place. I may not agree, but I'm willing to listen. You are the one deciding to leave the conversation. Well, not everyone is gonna listen every time you speak. Thats life.
As for my "bs"... the real bs here, Kent, is you cutting and running instead of civilly, politely, but firmly standing your ground. Of taking a potshot and then leaving before getting a response.
And by the way, this is much less a response than what I had originally typed... agian. Hellfire, brimstone, cats lying with dogs... I had a really good number about pimento cheese as well, but you wont see it.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: and yet one of the greatest mass murdering systems the world has ever known, communism...
And this is the point where I pretty much lose interest in your arguments, Dude. Because this doesn't really have squat to do with what I'm talking about.
Disliking my native land's foreign policy has exactly jack to do with any desire to idolize the government of the former Soviet Union.
Please.
Then you really didn't get that I was referring to your posting history here as a person of the "Populace", for the little guy, a hater of big government and corporations.
You really didn't make the connection between a government that made all those claims to be for the little guy, the worker, and yet still managed to wrack up an impressive mass murder record?
to quote you...
please.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em:
My personal political views have changed drastically over the years, and the changes seem to be happening faster and more severe the older I get. Funny thing is, my Liberal friends would think I am conservative, and my Conservative friends would think I am liberal...when in truth, they are both correct. My views are my own and almost guaranteed to offend someone I know...
Kinda rambled about nothing here...but oh well.
Not really. I think I get where you're coming from, Dev.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Then you really didn't get that I was referring to your posting history here as a person of the "Populace", for the little guy, a hater of big government and corporations.
You really didn't make the connection between a government that made all those claims to be for the little guy, the worker, and yet still managed to wrack up an impressive mass murder record?...
Oooh, I'm a'scared now.
Are you gonna' dig up Zombie J. Edgar Hoover to come after me, O Great One?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Last night I tried to write my thoughts about this issue. I was up until 2:30 AM before deciding to delete the whole thing. I realized some things:
(1) I cared enough about interacting with you all about this to stay up until 2:30 on a work night. (2) Although I have convictions about all this, I couldn't get my thoughts in writing clearly and thoroughly enough to even agree with what I wrote. When I would reread it, I found point after point that I could argue with or felt needed further exploration. It's not that I didn't know my own mind or can't express my thinking clearly (or that it was the wee hours of the morning), it's that the issue has so many complexities that I couldn't cover everything I wanted to in a concise presentation. (And I think much of the conflict here comes from the difficulty of getting the nuances in such lengthy posts.) (3) I realized that if I'd published something here, then I'd have had to defend it. And I couldn't even defend it to myself.
I've read every post on this thread. I don't recall even one that I've completely disagreed with. I'm impressed with everyone's ability to state their case, but I also feel that no one has managed to make a definitive analysis. And I'm sure that no one would claim that was their goal.
Unfortunately, it's too easy for us to feel that disagreement with or misunderstanding of our statements of conviction is an attack on our selves, and we react in defense. We know the reality of that dynamic, especially in written internet forums, but we still get hooked. And then dialogue turns into attack or retreat.
It's that very human part of us which, without humility and the hard work of love, can escalate into war and terrorism. Perhaps Osama's death, with its questions about vengeance, violence, morals, patriotism, etc., is nudging deeper parts of ourselves than we realize.
-------------------- "Been killed--didn't like it." (Duplicate Damsel, Legion of Super-Heroes #10)
From: Groga | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em: [QB] My personal political views have changed drasticvally over the years, and the changes seem to be happening faster and more severe the older I get. Funny thing is, my Liberal friends would think I am conservative, and my Conservative friends would think I am liberal...when in truth, they are both correct. My views are my own and almost guarenteed to offend someone I know...ah well. QB]
That describes me too, Dev.
-------------------- "Been killed--didn't like it." (Duplicate Damsel, Legion of Super-Heroes #10)
From: Groga | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Absolutely, LT. And, I'm frankly glad to see it. We've been at war for ten years. The nature of war is that it involves horrible, violent, ugly things. Some may think the ends justify the means. Others may think that we've sold our souls and the soul of our nation by stooping to the level of our enemy. For too much of this war we've been content to let our professional military get their hands bloody while we watch from the comfort of our living rooms. I'm pretty confused about my own feelings and have had a hard time finding my voice. I'm glad to see some thunder and emotion finally coming to the surface.
-------------------- No regrets, Coyote.
From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2003
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