posted
Well, at least now I understand where you are coming from.
Everything you say may be true (or it may not be, for all I know . . . you are speculating on what the powers that be will get out of bin Laden's death. Likewise, your broad generalization of who the powers that be are and their motives does not support your argument). But none of that matters to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11. None of them asked for that to happen. None of them deserved it.
Jay Taber makes good points, too. However, I still think it's a significant accomplishment that bin Laden is no longer out there, claiming victory for murdering innocent people.
And, for the record, I'm still not sure that justice was served or closure was found. But I think that's what the celebrators are hoping for.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:a friend of mine: I remember how I felt when they televised people over seas celebrating the death of Americans, I thought "How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?" Then I watched the news last night and thought " How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?"
I have been thinking the same thing. However, I also see two distinguishing factors. One being that no one here is firing guns into the air (although I wouldn't be surprised if someone did). The second and most distinguishing factor (for me) is that the people here are cheering for the death of an admitted mass murderer who would do it again while the people in the Middle East were cheering the deaths of innocent men, women, and children.
-------------------- Five billion years from now the Sun will go nova and obliterate the Earth. Don't sweat the small stuff!
From: Boston | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: A trial that would go on for years with the ACLU declaring his rights with millions more dollars spent. And the terrorists trying to capture people to trade for him, school buses, towns, airplanes of people?
quote:Originally posted by Ram Boy I think a trial would have been fairly pointless considering he had already (proudly) taken credit for his actions. Furthermore, besides providing him with an opportunity to spew his hate and intolerance, it would have just stretched out the suffering of all those families who have been patiently waiting for justice.
Good points.
I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the concept that it's okay, legally or morally, to assassinate someone. I still want to believe that we are the "good guys" and that we should be above all of that. I know reality is much more complicated, though.
Saddam Hussein's trial ran for two and a half years from the first hearing until his execution. Is that too long? bin Laden's trial would probably have been shorter, as he took credit for his crimes. (Though it would been next to impossible to find an impartial jury somewhere.) And no one (to my knowledge) was capturing people and ransoming them for Saddam's release.
In other words, the negative outcomes that might have happened from putting bin Laden on trial might not have happened at all.
It's just how I was raised, to believe that even the worst of the worst (and bin Laden certainly qualifies) deserves a fair trial. Due process is what separates the "good guys" from the "bad guys".
But, yes, the assassination was certainly expedient, and a trial would likely have resulted in the same outcome. The difference, I suppose, is that we should not have two systems of justice, one for "lesser" murderers and one for "the worst" murderers. Giving bin Laden a special category, one worthy of assassination instead of due process, elevates him to some other level and undermines our belief in our system of justice, it seems to me.
I agree with you He Who Wanders.
And Candlelight, I would add that the ACLU would be in the right if the government did not give Osama Bin Laden the same rights that we all have. The 14th Amendment says, in the relevant part, that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law or deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. And the Framers of the amendment used "person" and not "citizen" even though they defined who was a citizen in the previous sentence. This says to me that the rights of the US Constitution apply to noncitizens as well as US citizens.
-------------------- Five billion years from now the Sun will go nova and obliterate the Earth. Don't sweat the small stuff!
From: Boston | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: Likewise, your broad generalization of who the powers that be are and their motives does not support your argument).
Well, Professor, if you want more specifics, we could start with companies like Boeing, and the various and sundry politicians they keep tucked in their pockets. You could also do worse than to read some more of Jay Taber's posts. I'll forward you some other stuff, if you're really interested. In terms of cold cash, and seeing how and where both major American political parties get their money, a site like Open Secrets is always good.
TBH, I don't think it takes much in the way of mental gymnastics to grasp that weapons manufacturers stand to lose a great deal if peace becomes more prevalent than war, and if the American defense budget were to start shrinking. But then again, I'm just stating my thoughts here, not trying to win a debate.
quote:But none of that matters to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11...
And I really wish you wouldn't harp on this "asked for it" or "deserved it" business. I don't recall saying anywhere that anyone in New York City deserved the events on September 11th. Despising what happened to the dead on the other side of the world --who seem to be repeatedly rendered invisible in these discussions despite the fact that they greatly outnumber the NYC dead-- is not an assertion that anyone here deserved their fate. Seeing the attack as not an isolated incident but the logical outgrowth of how America wages war isn't, either.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq: I have been thinking the same thing. However, I also see two distinguishing factors. One being that no one here is firing guns into the air (although I wouldn't be surprised if someone did). The second and most distinguishing factor (for me) is that the people here are cheering for the death of an admitted mass murderer who would do it again while the people in the Middle East were cheering the deaths of innocent men, women, and children.
I can't really take any consolation in the ignorance of my fellow Americans. If they really are blissfully unaware of all the people we killed to get Bin Laden, (not to mention all the people he killed with our approval, once upon a time) it doesn't really speak well of them.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
and yet one of the greatest mass murdering systems the world has ever known, communism, was started by people, and one person in particular that said they were all for "the people". How many died under Lenin and Stalin? But, they were for the people... as long as the people did exactly what they said, when they said, and kissed their asses without ever saying anything.
Every one here has said that yes, America has problems and that we aren't perfect. Our government frequently gets in bed with one bad guy to quell another bad guy, and has to deal with the consequences.
Okay.
You are completely, totally, 100% right. You win. You have taken the arguement.
And?
Again, you are wanting us to hairshirt over the "millions" killed. Guess what, we do feel crappy about it. America overwhelmingly said as a nation that it wasn't the innocent muslims that were at fault, but the bugnuts extremists. we bent over backwards in this country to make sure that the rights of those percieved as middle eastern were not trampled on as the Japanese Americans were in WWII.
HOWEVER... Bin Laden was NOT the sole purpose, as so many have stated, for the war in Iraq. 18 violated UN resolutions, a man and his sons that held rape chambers, held parties where men were encouraged to run themselves onto swords, where people disappeared off the street and were never seen again, were a pretty girl could mean that her family was slaughtered if they refused to turn her over for the rulers sexual depravities, and OIL! were.
thats reality. You may not like it, you may loath it, and no one here is demanding that you change. But its reality, its your opinion, and others are entitled to theirs just as much as you are yours.
However, 3000 plus people that had nothing to do with HIS jihad except for working living, and sleeping in towers that were only symbols of wealth and power to people outside this country for the most part, were murdered for attention. for "look at me look at me give me attention". When my five year old son does that I quietly correct him. When a spoiled shit rich kid with religious extreme views and millions of dollars pitches a snit, people die.
I wouldn't have killed him.
I would have brought him back here to this country, I would have built on the site of his attrocity a prison that would hold one inmate, Bin Laden. He would have never seen another living soul again. He would have been fed one time a day. Medical? Uh Oh. Nope. For however long he lived, he would never again have the ability to share his twisted, warped, depraved views with anyone again. he would never have seen the light of day again, never been allowed to see anyone in person. And when he died, the place would have been collapsed on top of him.
And IF any of his followers decided to kidnap one person in his name, it would have been collapsed on him instantly. No reprieves.
The attention he wanted so bad would have been forever denied him.
And yes, I'm viscous when it comes to the people of this country, or any other for that matter that have to live under the heel and hell of someone like that. And I have zero problems with it.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Well, Professor, if you want more specifics, we could start with companies like Boeing, and the various and sundry politicians they keep tucked in their pockets. You could also do worse than to read some more of Jay Taber's posts. I'll forward you some other stuff, if you're really interested. In terms of cold cash, and seeing how and where both major American political parties get their money, a site like Open Secrets is always good.
Oh, I have no doubt that companies profit from the war and that some companies bribe government officials to get military contracts, as the blog in the first link states.
Still, I think this is getting off-topic as it has little or nothing to do with Osama bin Laden targeting innocent people.
bin Laden could not get revenge on the people who keep the war machine going, apparently, so he chose to take his hatred out on those he could target: men, women, and children who were just going about their lives, going to work, supporting their families, going to daycare, etc.
In bin Laden's worldview, there are no innocents. We are all the Great Satan. This is a convenient conclusion that allows one (in one's own mind) to get away with anything. Kent took Candlelight to task for relying on the Nazi analogy, but I think it's relevant here. The Nazis saw Jews -- and anyone who was not Aryan -- as less than human, no more than vermin, ready to be exterminated at their discretion. bin Laden's worldview seems to have been the same for anyone who was not Muslim (though, as pointed out above, he killed Muslims, too).
People like him don't need a war machine to fan the flames of their hatred. They would find their own ways of doing so. At least, that's my opinion, and my conclusion from the limited research I've done into the minds of murderers and Nazis.
And I'm just stating my thoughts, too.
quote:
quote:But none of that matters to the people who lost loved ones in 9/11...[/qb]
I'll concede this point. Thanks for the link to Andrea LeBlanc's article, "America after Osama bin Laden." She is correct that bin Laden's death ultimately changes nothing. It does not bring back her husband or the others lost in 9/11.
quote:And I really wish you wouldn't harp on this "asked for it" or "deserved it" business. I don't recall saying anywhere that anyone in New York City deserved the events on September 11th. Despising what happened to the dead on the other side of the world --who seem to be repeatedly rendered invisible in these discussions despite the fact that they greatly outnumber the NYC dead-- is not an assertion that anyone here deserved their fate. Seeing the attack as not an isolated incident but the logical outgrowth of how America wages war isn't, either.
OK, fine.
But I have to ask, how would closure or justice look to you?
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Your basic argument seems to be that the people celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden are ignoring the US's (government and corporate) own liability in originally friending Osama Bin Laden and the multitude of deaths in Afghanistan & Iraq. That is a valid argument. And for the most part I agree that the US (government and corporate) has made some pretty rotten deals with people they shouldn't have and that the vast majority of Americans are ignorant of this. And that it is understandable that people in the Middle East and elsewhere have legitimate reasons to hate the US.
And that terror, terrorism, and the "war on terror" are not going to stop because Bin Laden is dead.
But it does seem like you are forgetting/excusing Bin Laden's own actions. He Who Wanders made a good analogy with the guy shooting up the McDonalds. Assuming that the gunman is killed, you will have some people just relieved that the ordeal is over and you will have some people who still have anger towards the gunman. You will also have people who will look at the gunman's circumstances and have some understanding and even sympathy for the gunman. And yes, we should look into the person who sold him the gun to see if the seller should have known not to sell to this guy but did anyway. But in all of that, the gunman still has the ultimate responsibility for his actions and the consequences. Even if the gun dealer should not have sold the guy the gun, that doesn't lessen the guy's responsibility to not kill people with it.
-------------------- Five billion years from now the Sun will go nova and obliterate the Earth. Don't sweat the small stuff!
From: Boston | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: I wrote out a rather long and heated response to this, Kent, but it sounded much angrier than I liked.
I wish you had, Rick. You may have come across more honest and respectable than you did with what you posted.
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: So, instead, I'm not going to try to match anything point by poiint.
no, of course not That would take too much effort. And, as you demonstrate, you are not so much interested in the exchange of ideas as dismissing mine.
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Instead, I'm going to ask you: What's your solution. A real workable solution that will satisfy every party involved and not lead to the creation of more murderous nutcases.
No, that is not what you are asking. You are looking for grounds to dismiss what I posted by:
1) making an unreasonable demand, thus rationalizing your dismissal of my point of view by not meeting it, or
2) if I did put forward some sort of meta-platform, you could then dismiss me as being a sheer ideologue.
3) if I did put something forward, you could mine it (and if need be twist it) to discredit the entire package.
Don't even pretend one has to put forward a complete set of alternatives in order to discuss the status quo. That is not only unreasonable, but it is disrespectful, a blatant attempt to steer the conversation to somewhere you can exert control.
It's a cheap ploy. If you want to dismiss me, be honest about it. Don't hide behind excuses. And don't pretend my voice doesn't matter just because you don't want to listen. We have disagreed in the past, Rick, but i have NEVER dismissed your opinion the way you are trying to do now. NEVER.
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: But, I'd like details. Not just "I don't have the perfect solution, no one does." because its easy to throw stones, but that's not what I'm looking for.
Of course it's not. Again, you're looking for an excuse to dismiss me.
I refuse to participate in your kangaroo court. You are not my judge, and I do not accept your frankly dishonest and disrespectful attempts to pigeon-hole my opinion.
For a guy who periodically claims to be the champion of critical thinking, you have shown yourself to be only interested in control. This is low, Rick.
[ May 04, 2011, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq: This is my last bit on this thread.
Kent & cleome,
Your basic argument seems to be that the people celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden are ignoring the US's (government and corporate) own liability in originally friending Osama Bin Laden and the multitude of deaths in Afghanistan & Iraq. That is a valid argument. And for the most part I agree that the US (government and corporate) has made some pretty rotten deals with people they shouldn't have and that the vast majority of Americans are ignorant of this. And that it is understandable that people in the Middle East and elsewhere have legitimate reasons to hate the US.
And that terror, terrorism, and the "war on terror" are not going to stop because Bin Laden is dead.
But it does seem like you are forgetting/excusing Bin Laden's own actions. He Who Wanders made a good analogy with the guy shooting up the McDonalds. Assuming that the gunman is killed, you will have some people just relieved that the ordeal is over and you will have some people who still have anger towards the gunman. You will also have people who will look at the gunman's circumstances and have some understanding and even sympathy for the gunman. And yes, we should look into the person who sold him the gun to see if the seller should have known not to sell to this guy but did anyway. But in all of that, the gunman still has the ultimate responsibility for his actions and the consequences. Even if the gun dealer should not have sold the guy the gun, that doesn't lessen the guy's responsibility to not kill people with it.
Thanks, Quis.
No, I am not saying to forget. I'm just cautioning on several fronts:
1. finding excuses as to why certain people should just be assassinated at whim sends us down a slippery slope. Today, bin Laden, tomorrow, anyone who disagrees with Official X.
2. Going down that slippery slop, especially in concert with blind nationalism, is far more likely to result in a Hitler than any external boogeyman.
3. Rationalizations and excuses can make us sleep at night, but blind us to the polarization of those who do not buy into our foundational assumptions.
4. exceptionalism also feeds this. Yes, we mourn 3,000 dead. But by ignoring comparables - or worse situations - we aid such polarization, and even radicalization.
5. reducing the Villain Du Jour to a simple caricature, and even false comparisons with other villains (even if both are equally evil, but in importantly different ways), aids and abets the propaganda machine to keep us distracted. And blinds us from the next villain until it may be too late.
6. If we don't start questioning and reexamining our way of life on a systematic level, we are going to be prone to repetition and escalation.
7. all these lead us merrily down the road further towards Empire. Turning a blind eye to everything we excuse only fuels the fire.
Yes, by all means, hold the gunman of analogy responsible. I've never said anything other than that. But by compartmentalizing one villain as uniquely bad, while ignoring many others, does nothing to make us safer or better off.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: We are dealing with a mass murderer, here. The problem I see in your response and Kent's is that you both seem to want to ignore this fact while pointing the finger at the things the U.S. has done wrong.
You're an intelligent guy, but this comes across like you are deflecting something you did not want to hear into something you can more easily dismiss.
I have seen nothing in my posts of cleome's that suggest ignoring anything.
And frankly, reducing it into a false either/or also seems problematic. Why does any discussion have to be *just* about bin Laden, when ignoring important context favors the very myopia cleome and I are attempting to address?
especially when some people are free to bring in Hitler et al, or engage in complete speculation, while cleome and I are not allowed to bring in any context?
The way you phrase it in terms of pointing fingers at the US also seems to try to pigeon-hole our point of view as 'America bashing,' as if all of America is at fault for a corrupt and violence-producing foreign policy (when indeed said policies undermine many American ideals).
Again, a double-standard (not necessarily by you, but by many), in that criticizing foreign and corporate policies is 'anti-American' yet criticizing domestic policies somehow automatically equals patriotism.
I for one am quite sick of double standards.
***
In any case, I am done. I've spoken my bit, and if some people choose to misinterpret me further, so be it.
I should realize by now that plenty of people are so well insulated into unconditional support of the status quo that there is no room for question, and any challenge to said way of thinking must be twisted into a shape that makes it easier to dismiss out of hand.
I'm disappointed, of course, but hardly surprised.
Fine, ignore anything you want to. Pretend it isn't somehow relevant. Just don't be surprised when it happens again - and even escalates.
I'd hope LW could be something where honest discussion could be appreciated, that we can do more than "Who's your favorite Legionnaire?" or playing games.
But maybe along the lines of the old song, "Everyone's Out of Step but Johnny," I'm the one who really does not belong here.
posted
As I stated earlier in the thread, I'm very happy that Osama Bid Laden is dead. On the one hand, I aspire to be the kind of person who never wishes death on anyone, but on the other hand, if I personally saw Osama Bin Laden across the room, I might actually have tried to kill him.
But I think we've moved quite a bit off topic here in terms of tone, if not subject matter.
Both Kent and Cleome bring up good points and they are certainly valid points. Their comments are certainly not worthy of being dismissed. Sure, the thread is mainly about Osama Bin Laden, but it isn’t too far of a step to talk about the War on Terror, and therefore, it certainly isn’t much farther of a step to discuss the more complex factors that feed into the War on Terror. Sure, most of the country is delighted he’s dead, and teenagers were cheering in the streets and lots of people we all know (maybe even some of us) have wished they riddled his body with bullets or dragged it from the back of a horse through the streets or something. But just because there is a sense of elation right now, doesn’t give us cause to ignore or dismiss more complex and difficult ideas. There is no “we deserve this” in this thread; we’re all adults and any topic may breed some intellectual discourse. It’s good that opposing viewpoints, especially those that really get into the more abstract notions, are added to the discourse.
It’s clear there are some opposing views here and that’s fine. They are all equally relevant.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
So now you are down to namecalling. I'm being dishonest and disingenuous. funny, I thought i was trying to be civil.
so, okay.
First, I haven't dismissed your opinion. Its just that, an opinion. funny thing is, when i have one here, its immediately bashed by some as being a kind of neocon hatemongering. Not said in so many words, but thats the intent. Your opinion is yours, an matters as much as anybodies else's, mine included, which is to say, worth jack.
Second, No, I wasn't trying to find a way to belittle or dismiss your opinion. I was genuinely asking. Because, like I stated above, its very easy to sling opinions for a superior attitude when you offer no viable solutions to anything other than over done, over stated platitudes that help no one, but salve your own conscience.
Third, yes, america does what other countries have to do, do business with bad people, cause, here's the thing, there ain't no good ones. Everyone is bad in some form or other. We even had congress tell they cia that they couldn't use 'bad people' as informants, operatives, etc... and look how well that turned out. Fear made them pass laws that seperated the various agencies so that they could not communicate, and use knowledge to form a working intel system that could lead to the prevention of things like 911. It was all under the banner "for the greater good, protecting people from the evil agencies". Except, when the CIA can't tell the FBI that known terrorists are headed for the US, and cannot legally operate inside the US..and the FBI isn't supposed to be gathering intel from outside our borders... then who the hell is gonna be able to do the job? Again, Jack Nobody.
So, I asked for a working solution that helps everyone, and doesn't hurt anyone. But, as you correctly surmissed, it isn't possible. Someone, somewhere, is gonna be hurt. Wanna end the dependence on oil? Great. Except, not everyone in america lives New York with mass transit to a job where they get to sit at a computer all day. Some of us live out in the coutryside, and our livelihood depends on having the means to travel about. Should we be forced to move into town to live? Communists did that. Should we loose our homes, which we struggle mightily with paying for because some vocal minority group decides that the country needs to go green and wants gas prices at five and six dollars a gallon? All in the name of helping us? Thanks, but no thanks.
For ever product out there, there is someone hurt. Thats the way the world, at this point, works. Its not a Utopia, and as long as humans are humans and not emotionless, heartless, unfeeling robots, it will continue that way.
No one is pretending we didn't have a hand in Bin Laden getting his start. But, we are but one step in many that created a mass baby/child/man/woman murderer. I'm not going to feel sorry for him. And if others are turned to Jihad racialism extremist murdering to prove a point, then I think, IN MY OPINION, that they had bad wiring in the head to begin with, and have no compunction about them being put down.
When a dog is rabid, you put it down. When a racoon is rabid, you put it down. When a "human" shows that they have no concern for innocent life, and state that their goal is to encourage/sponsor/ create even more death, destruction, and pain and suffering... a bullet is cheap.
As for your farewell, if thats the case its a shame. I've been on the receiving end of many a differing viewpoint here. When I first got here, I was a very blunt statement maker. I learned that I was in a place that was kind enough to let me say things, even if they truly didn't want to hear it and it would have no effect. But, I tried to learn to play well with others and say things without some of the rancor i felt coming through.
And that, more than anything, was what changed my mind about posting in such a fashion as I mentioned earlier, not some lame ass attempt to make you, Cleome, or anyone else look bad. But even when i try to be nice, its still taken as a shot. Maybe you do need to think about it before resorting to namecalling.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
