cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
I'm going to start bawling in a minute, or worse.
Getting offline now.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I don't mean to make you upset, cleome. You have strong views, and so do I. So far, it's been a civil discussion (I thought).
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Most of the crowd at the White House were college students, so I don't and didn't have a problem with them, as kids tend to be like that.
And most of the time, they weren't chanting about bin what's his face.
He was trained by the US to fight the Russians, who were trying to take over Afganistan. We train allies to fight their enemies, a lot. That's what France did for us during the Revolution. bin Laden chose to take that training and use it to bully and murder his own people and neighboring peoples and peoples like us. HE chose to do what he did, just like Hitler.
I'm completely aware of how the rest of the world responded to Hitler and the Nazis in the beginning. The US rejection of Jewish refuges. He hid and lied and few saw the evil or understood the monstressness of his plans.
You may want to forget him and what he fostered by I NEVER want to forget. We MUST remember and judge ALL terror by it!
I dislike American greed and our using of others; Super Capitalism is a curse on the world. But that is NOT the issue here.
He was a mass murderer, and the leader of mass murderers. He's dead now, and we'll see what his organizations of psychos does.
We KNOW the al Quida would have taken hostages for trade because they've already done it. They do it all of the time, all over the world. It's one of their major tactics.
And many of the 911 families didn't get closure. The ones I saw interviewed said that Laden was just a player, not the whole thing and they made perfect sense.
Lastly, what makes people think that we're 'better' than anyone else, that we're somehow limited, or straight-jacketed in how we respond to things? I think that's arrogant and slightly ridiculous.
With wolves, if a pup shows itself to be unruly, aggressive and untrainable, the alpha male, it's father, makes a judgement call for the good of the pack, and puts the cub down with a quick break to the neck.
bin Laden was a confessed mass murder with great influence on others. He NEEDED to be put down, quickly and cleanly. He was treated with more respect than his victims. imo and with malice to no one here
You're probably right that al Quaida would have taken hostages to free bin Laden, given their history.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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And Iam Legion - I agree and disagree. I hate that bin Laden is getting so much recognition, of any kind.
But evil needs a face and a name. It MUST remain in the light. We HAVE to know that's it's in the faces of people, that it's very, very real and personal and stopable.
To triumph, evil only needs us to turn a blind and forgetful eye.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
and somewhere in Iraq, an even stronger case rooted in the same logic is being made based upon the 100,000+ civilian victims there.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: He was trained by the US to fight the Russians, who were trying to take over Afganistan. We train allies to fight their enemies, a lot. That's what France did for us during the Revolution. bin Laden chose to take that training and use it to bully and murder his own people and neighboring peoples and peoples like us.
and how would we have reacted if France started building military bases over here? Bad analogy, Candle.
one does not have to remotely agree with bin Laden's motivations, but ignoring them blinds us from rise of the next batch of bin Ladens. If identifying our current loose-cannon 'allies' now saves thousands (or even millions) of lives in the future, then it's a worthy exercise to understand (and again, understanding =/= agreement). Propping up the oversimplified caricature of the Bad Guy Du Jour does nothing except feed mass ignorance.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: HE chose to do what he did, just like Hitler.
lame. seriously.
again, overuse of of Hitler hyperbole does nothing but dumb down our collective understanding of the world. Great for blind nationalism, I'll grant, but not much good otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: I'm completely aware of how the rest of the world responded to Hitler and the Nazis in the beginning. The US rejection of Jewish refuges.
based on what you write and how use use the Hitler hyperbole, it seems a bit short of "complete."
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: He hid and lied and few saw the evil or understood the monstressness of his plans.
except for the Final Solution itself, not really. And as vile as the Final Solution was, there were plenty of other things that were openly known. The death camps were an escalation, certainly, but hardly an anomaly.
There was widespread agreement, and very little questioning, that certain types of people (not just Jews) 'NEEDED' to be contained and isolated (at a minimum), quickly and cleanly.
I've been looking at newspapers of the 1930s. A lot of monstrous Nazi programs and proposals were quite well in the open, with Western officials downplaying it all. People knew what was going on more than we give credit for, more than we conveniently excuse today. And, like today, those inconveniently drawing the attention were being portrayed as radical, nutjobs, etc. Just as Greens or social justice people get portrayed today.
Moreover, IBM, Dow Chemical, an investment bankers were well aware. People like Prescott Bush helped smooth the way for Hitler.
If you really want a Hitler analogy, look at the excuse-making being made for corporate greed. That was what was defending Naziism, and that's what is covering up for the worst of abuses done today.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: You may want to forget him and what he fostered by I NEVER want to forget. We MUST remember and judge ALL terror by it!
It's not about forgetting (and frankly, that inaccurate representation of others' views does not strengthen your position). It's about drawing all the connections, not just the ones the powers that be want you to see.
We need to move beyond the Orwellian Five Minute Hate (look it up if you don't get the reference) if we really don't just want to move from one prefab Republic-serial-villain to another. And let's face it, there will be a new villain propped up sooner or later.
Containing our collective scorn towards only certain types of abuses enables the soft-selling of others. Buying a big fancy diamond engagement ring gives de Beers a free pass on their own crimes against humanity, as but one example. While that may seem far afield, from the Hitler analogy you so love, it is not that different from the warnings sounded - and ignored - in the 30s. Waiting for 'official' condemnations abets the real Hitlers, who often have the full support of our 'leaders,' just as corporate giants do today.
If bin Laden's death campaign had been tied to an economically viable product (other than arms production), he would not have been the poster boy for terror, and you'd be painted as a whacko for bringing him up.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: I dislike American greed and our using of others, the Super Capitalism is a curse on the world. But this is NOT the issue here.
Actually, it is. Saying it is not removes vital context, and reduces our understanding to a caricature. Not unlike Nazi propaganda techniques, actually, so there's another Hitlerism you overlooked.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: He was a mass murderer, and the leader of mass murderers.
the same could be said for many. Including many of our own leaders. Again, 100,000+ dead civilians in Iraq, as but one example.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: We KNOW the al Quida would have taken hostages for trade because they've already done it. They do it all of the time, all over the world. It's one of their major tactics.
there is a big difference between "we know" and "I believe based upon sporadic evidence filtered and spun by those who want to keep me distracted."
pretty much all al Qaeda hostage-taking has been in a handful of countries, places where hostilities have directly been going on. It's a pretty big step to say they can do (and have done) it everywhere at any time.
if executions are to be based upon far-fetched guesswork, then anything can be excused against anyone. One can nuke Portland because it's full of granola-eating radical hippies who *might* overthrow corporate 'democracy." We've seen it on TV and the Internet, so it must be true.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: Lastly, what makes people think that we're 'better' than anyone else, that we're somehow limited, or straight-jacketed in how we respond to things? I think that's arrogance and slightly ridiculous.
for once, we agree.
the excuses being made for execution can be easily made against us, on a whole host of topics. Simply because they are invisible in American discourse does not mean they are not there.
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: bin Laden was a confessed mass murder with great influence on others. He NEEDED to be put down, quickly and cleanly. He was treated with more respect than his victims.
great. If that's the standard, where does it stop? Why stop with one convenient target?
it reminds me of the slippery slope Kermit Roosevelt and the Dulles brothers sent us down when we as a nation really got going in the assassination/overthrow business. Any flimsy excuse became a great reason to do so. And it's left a lot of the bad blood we are stuck with today. Iran, for instance, all because the Anglo-Iranian oil company didn't want to give Iran the same profit-sharing the Saudis got - is all the strife in Iran of the past six decades really worth it?
and even outside of government, Union Carbide killed 10,000 people in one day. A few execs 30 years later, got a slap on the wrist. Is it really any better, whether 3k die by premeditation than 3-4 times as many dying for profiteering?
Even aside from negligence (or even pollution). far more die in resource wars in Africa, all to supply us oil, diamonds, uranium or other things we can safely pretend come to us bloodless, because there is no bin Laden poster boy attached to them.
If excuse-making is okay, and executions are based on convenience and inventing arbitrary standards on the spot, then enviro-activists are justified in doing anything they want against BP, the nuke industry and plenty of others.
All I see from the excuse-making is defense of the same might-makes-right mentality that is only going to give us more and more bin Ladens, many of whom we will not be able to identify by their mode of dress or color of skin. Bombing nations to kingdom come seems more like a recipe to breed plenty more bin Ladens, and even if we fool our own populace to ignore the resource/control aspects, it is foolish to assume our victims will adopt our rationalizations.
so great, bin Laden's dead. Dance in the streets if you want to. Maybe his org is crippled; maybe it's going to abduct my cousin Billy. But I really don't expect anything to change, when all the mechanisms are still in place. We as a nation still train terrorists to be our allies; some of them are likely to turn against us sooner or later.
Reducing and reconstructing one figurehead to an anomaly still seems more like excuse-making to feel better, and still distances ourselves from the larger issues.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I wrote out a rather long and heated response to this, Kent, but it sounded much angrier than I liked.
So, instead, I'm not going to try to match anything point by poiint.
Instead, I'm going to ask you: What's your solution. A real workable solution that will satisfy every party involved and not lead to the creation of more murderous nutcases.
But, I'd like details. Not just "I don't have the perfect solution, no one does." because its easy to throw stones, but that's not what I'm looking for.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
That's your response to what he wrote, rickshaw1? A variation of the childish, "Oh, yeah? Let's see YOU do better! Nyah!" shtick that's rampant on every political board in existence?
Between that and your comment here yesterday: I'm giving two thumbs down.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: I don't mean to make you upset, cleome. You have strong views, and so do I. So far, it's been a civil discussion (I thought).
That's exactly what made me throw up my hands and run, Dude. I feel like civilized, educated people are telling me that millions of dead, wounded, impoverished human beings in the ME aren't important here-- that we should just sweep them aside like so much trash;that what America did (and is still doing, daily) to these people is justified because we had to get the bad guy, the oil, whatever.
And that absolutely breaks my heart. If that's what civilization really amounts to, I think it's time for me to pack up a knapsack and go live in the woods alone.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Then you missed both points. But then, you frequently do with me.
Point 1) Its easy to sit back and throw stones at glass houses, but to offer real solution instead of just sitting on the sidelines and slinging arrows matters more. Its easy to say "america bad, we do more better now", anyone can do it. But unless you are actively providing better solutions, unless you are making the choice to walk the halls of power and push through what actually will make the world a better place, you are just an enabler. You use evil oil products every day, unless you live in a cave and drink stream water and eat raw plants and animals. The big companies can only do what they do, the big politicians can only do what they do, because it is DEMANDED of them. The product is demanded. Stop making oil, stop importing oil and its products, and the country would openly revolt. So, I ask for a real, genuine, workable solution.
Point 2) He's dead. Time to close the book, move on for both this country and every other nation, group, persecuted religious group that he targeted, etc. And when his disciples show up, stop them too. Yes, it will create hard feeling in some people, a small minority. Thats part of the "sometimes there's only the lesser sin option".
As to your thumbs down comment... perhaps you should do something really wild and step outside your own perspective. Isn't that what you are always telling me to do?
My opinion is just that, my opinion. Its only right for me. Ditto for you.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
I've never liked the tired old trope of "We have met the enemy and he is us" as it's frequently used in these discussions, rickshaw1. Too often, it's used to peddle the same old saw that you bring up here: Oh, woe! The corporations are slaves to us! They do these things because we MAKE them do it! Oh, woe!
I've been "in that perspective" my whole life, Dude. It's the majority perspective, among both liberals and conservatives and sloughing it off was/is a lifetime's work. It's that pervasive.
Your perspective is not new to me. I just don't like it.
Seriously, I expect that if Kent comes back to you with a five-point plan about how to dismantle the war machine and curb corporate power, you'll respond with a lot of concern about how it's unworkable because somebody somewhere in American might lose their job. That's how these discussions usually go. I can see the pattern pretty well after two years on this board.
It kind of floors me, common though it is on the internet and IRL. You can live contentedly with millions of foreigners being murdered in cold blood with our tax dollars. Yet if some Americans were to lose their jobs and need an expanded assistance program for one, five, or ten years while industry retools itself to deal with change, you'd consider it the end of the world.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by He Who LSHes: I don't mean to make you upset, cleome. You have strong views, and so do I. So far, it's been a civil discussion (I thought).
That's exactly what made me throw up my hands and run, Dude. I feel like civilized, educated people are telling me that millions of dead, wounded, impoverished human beings in the ME aren't important here-- that we should just sweep them aside like so much trash;that what America did (and is still doing, daily) to these people is justified because we had to get the bad guy, the oil, whatever.
And that absolutely breaks my heart. If that's what civilization really amounts to, I think it's time for me to pack up a knapsack and go live in the woods alone.
I have no idea how you read that into my response, cleome. Yes, "millions of dead, wounded, and impoverished human beings" in the Middle East and elsewhere is a tradedy. But what does that have to do with Osama bin Laden murdering thousands of people, including his supposed own people, Muslims?
We are dealing with a mass murderer, here. The problem I see in your response and Kent's is that you both seem to want to ignore this fact while pointing the finger at the things the U.S. has done wrong. Has the U.S. done terrible things? Yes. Do people around the globe have justifiable reasons for hating the things we've done? Surely. Did we bring all of this on ourselves? Well . . . no.
To be frank, I'm not sure I understand the basis of your (or Kent's) complaints. Exactly what are you saying? Millions of people in the Middle East are suffering, so we should NOT rejoice in bid Laden's death? I fail to see the logical connection.
To my mind, bin Laden was no different than a nutcase who walks into a McDonald's and blows people away because he was fired from his job six months ago. (This really happened, btw.) Do we blame his boss? Society in general? His abusive parents? Do we have to feel bad because the SWAT team shot him down?
I'm really not sure what sort of reaction you are expecting or advocating.
The U.S. has done terrible things, yes. Does that justify the senseless slaughter of 3000+ men, women, and children? Absolutely not.
Should we sympathize with the men, women, and children in the Middle East who are suffering? Should we try to help them? Of course.
But, in my mind, this has nothing to do with celebrations over bin Laden's death.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
To be blunt, HWL:
You talk about closure and justice, and IMHO neither word is applicable in this situation. Because the machine that created Bin Laden and the people who run that machine are still very much with us. If they've learned anything from his death, it's that they can continue to proceed as they always have, wasting the lives and money of people further down the food chain in order to further cement their own power and wealth-- because we don't have the power to stop them from doing it.
I cannot and will not cheer for that, or equate it with any kind of justice.
quote:"So What As the military establishment celebrates the assassination of bin Laden, those who’ve followed the al Qaeda saga might rightly answer, so what. A ten-year war to kill a guy the FBI had in its sights ten years ago, before 9/11? Seems like a pretty lame excuse for flag-waving.
With our social infrastructure in freefall due in large part to the needlessly bloated military budget, the consolation of another bogeyman biting the dust hardly seems worth all the excitement." -- Jay Taber, 5/3/11
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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