posted
cleome, you have a very interesting point of view for someone who (apparently) reads and enjoys super-hero comic books. Where would the genre be without a foundation in the notion that bad-guy violence justifies good-guy violence?
-------------------- Chaim Mattis Keller ckeller@nyc.rr.com Legion-Reference-File Lad
From: New York, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Justice and self protection are very old concepts. Are we supposed to let Hitler destroy whomever he wants because there's a lot of water between him and us? Or serial killers go unpunished?
Personally, my Lord wants me to turn the other cheek because my life's goals aren't based on justice, but on mercy and redemption. BUT I am still mandated to protect the innocent.
Governments, as well as law enforcement groups, unlike individuals, are set up to protect, defend and bring to justice preditors.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I agree with Quis that theoretically I have no desire for anyone to be killed, but I have to say, I'm glad a proud murderer is no longer walking this Earth.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller: cleome, you have a very interesting point of view for someone who (apparently) reads and enjoys super-hero comic books. Where would the genre be without a foundation in the notion that bad-guy violence justifies good-guy violence?
CMK, Dude... the Lefties I know on political blogs wonder about that, too. The ones that know about my "double life," anyway.
To make a long story short, my political views have changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years. But I can still tell fiction from real life, or at least I hope that I can.
Yup. I want my candy and my comforting fantasies, just like everyone else.
Also, FWIW, I'm not a Pacifist, if that's what you're driving at. Pacifists, so far as I know, don't believe in the legitimacy of any armed, violent resistance at all. But I believe that a nation has the right to defend its own borders and its own land. It's the U.S. policy of roaming the world and policing it to secure wealth for multinational corporations that I find morally repugnant and demonstrably destructive to our own physical and moral health.
I don't find the idea of self-defense morally repugnant at all.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: ...Are we supposed to let Hitler destroy whomever he wants because there's a lot of water between him and us...?
Nobody ever seems to carry away the right lesson from the life and career of Hitler. He was nurtured, financed, and loved by powerful Americans for years before he became our enemy. When America's leadership finally turned on him, it's because they were afraid that he had become too powerful. Not because they suddenly loved Jews, the Roma, gays, and the rest of his victims.
The U.S. and Canada both turned a deaf ear to Hitler's victims for YEARS, when they tried to escape Europe. Which speaks volumes of how little they cared about the victims of Hitler's genocide. IBM built much of its wealth helping Hitler organize and co-ordinate his state-sanctioned murder. So far as I know, they've never apologized for this. (And IBM is just one such corporation among many.)
Frankly, I'm sick to death of Hitler being dragged out as an excuse for our foreign policy in modern times. What does it say about us that we continue to fund and support this kind of evil at the expense of our own health and safety?
Our leadership loves money and power for its own sake above all else. Its endless blather about God and "humanitarianism" and what not is just a front, so far as I'm concerned.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
well said, cleome. and good job addressing the excuses and rationalizations - and let's all face it, that's what they were.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:a friend of mine: I remember how I felt when they televised people over seas celebrating the death of Americans, I thought "How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?" Then I watched the news last night and thought " How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?"
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Yeah, that too, Kent.
Relief I can understand, somewhat. But cheering this [bleep] on like it's nothing but a sporting event?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: A trial that would go on for years with the ACLU declaring his rights with millions more dollars spent. And the terrorists trying to capture people to trade for him, school buses, towns, airplanes of people?
quote:Originally posted by Ram Boy I think a trial would have been fairly pointless considering he had already (proudly) taken credit for his actions. Furthermore, besides providing him with an opportunity to spew his hate and intolerance, it would have just stretched out the suffering of all those families who have been patiently waiting for justice.
Good points.
I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the concept that it's okay, legally or morally, to assassinate someone. I still want to believe that we are the "good guys" and that we should be above all of that. I know reality is much more complicated, though.
Saddam Hussein's trial ran for two and a half years from the first hearing until his execution. Is that too long? bin Laden's trial would probably have been shorter, as he took credit for his crimes. (Though it would been next to impossible to find an impartial jury somewhere.) And no one (to my knowledge) was capturing people and ransoming them for Saddam's release.
In other words, the negative outcomes that might have happened from putting bin Laden on trial might not have happened at all.
It's just how I was raised, to believe that even the worst of the worst (and bin Laden certainly qualifies) deserves a fair trial. Due process is what separates the "good guys" from the "bad guys".
But, yes, the assassination was certainly expedient, and a trial would likely have resulted in the same outcome. The difference, I suppose, is that we should not have two systems of justice, one for "lesser" murderers and one for "the worst" murderers. Giving bin Laden a special category, one worthy of assassination instead of due process, elevates him to some other level and undermines our belief in our system of justice, it seems to me.
[ May 02, 2011, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: He Who LSHes ]
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:a friend of mine: I remember how I felt when they televised people over seas celebrating the death of Americans, I thought "How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?" Then I watched the news last night and thought " How depraved does someone have to be to celebrate someone's death?"
Kind of gives a new perspective on the former, doesn't it?
In some ways, I think the catharsis of the celebrations last night was necessary -- necessary for closure as well as to make us feel good about something in a time of economic downturn and political venom that has a lot of people worried and angry. Certain parts of the world may not see it this way, of course, but we can't base all of our reactions on how others perceive us.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
I personally have a hard time understanding why anyone would consider this closure, but I went into the reasons for that upthread.
But I'll add this: how many people even remember, or ever knew, that Bin Laden wasn't even Iraqi, nor were most of the 9/11 attackers? He was from Saudi Arabia, and so were nearly all of his hijacker pals.
We beat the living daylights out of a country (Iraq) that we'd already brutalized with horrible sanctions and an earlier war, and for what? Did it bring back the three thousand dead Americans? (And don't even get me started on Afghanistan.)
No, no. Sorry. This isn't anything like closure, as I understand it, HWW.
And if you ask me, Americans spend far too little time seeing ourselves as others see us.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
As far as I'm concerned, cleome, the war in Iraq is a non-issue insofar as whether or not bin Laden should have been assassinated. I think most rational people realize that bin Laden was the culprit of 9/11 -- he said so. And, yes, you can argue that the US befriended him, propped him up, etc. But, for me, the bottom line is that nothing justifies the murder of 3000+ people.
Knowing that bin Laden "got his" gives many a sense of cathartic release, a feeling that justice has been served, and, yes, closure. Illogical? Yes. But real.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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