quote:

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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
What they made Green Arrow do in Cry Justice has put me off the character. I don't foresee ever reading Green Arrow again.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
I have not read Longbow Hunters. So I don't know the circumstances around those killings. Were they as premeditated as the murder of Prometheus or did they occur in the heat or immediate aftermath of battle?

More than the killing of Prometheus, it was having Green Arrow say "justice" right after. I screamed (in my mind) "That's not justice! That is revenge!"

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Ollie has killed before, under Grell and Dixon. His hunt in Cry For Justice isn't that out of character, tho this particular killing was more premeditated.

The cover for issue #3, and Ollie's surviving an arrow to the head leads to learning the forest of Star City has healing powers. It does progress the story, so it's not totally misleading.

This new series chock full of navel gazing. The pacing is drawn out, too much of Ollie's inner monolouge is rehashed guilt. There's one more GA issue in my future- anything less than stellar and I drop the book.

I stop buying Green Arrow.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
When CJ drops Green Arrow, you know the title sucks.

For me personally, I've got the ability to forget pretty quickly what other creators have done with characters. So while I hate "Cry for Justice" and was appalled by it, it wouldn't put me off Ollie permanently.

What I can't forgive is a really crappy story. And that was what this was. Bad pacing, non-stop guilt-brooding, an annoying Ollie/Hal confrontation, a girl on the verge of getting raped (DC sure loves its rapists--I suspect some of the editors must fantasize about this?), corrupt businessmen exploiting a broken down city, etc. It's a series of cliches with no real meat to it.

They are obviously trying to copy what Grell did before and it comes off as unoriginal. They are invoking Katrina-ridden New Orleans in a way that rather than being poignant, comes of as exploitation (or at the very least, are trying to invoke 1980's era Los Angeles which feels outdated).

There were a lot of criticisms of Winnick on Green Arrow, and many of them valid, but in my opinion, whatever he did, he always was able to make it stand on it's own. He was carving out his own era in GA history. This feels like aping the past and just not being good enough to pull it off.
 

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Posted by Chief Taylor on :
 
Thing is, I'm not entirely clear whether the Grell-era Ollie Queen stories are still in continuity. The reaction Ollie got to killing Prometheus makes me think that it might not.

In any case I gave the first couple issues a flip-thru. Even though I like the art style, I could tell that this wasn't a real must-have. Online reviews have backed this up.

I SO want a good Ollie Queen book because he is one of my very most favorite DCU characters. It looks like I'm not getting one any time soon. Kevin Smith brought Ollie back with a bang, Brad Meltzer's arc was pretty decent and the early Winick issues were very good. But after Winick's first year, it quickly turned into a sea of "meh" at best. And even a new direction and creative team haven't bailed Ollie out.

Actually, on second thought, there is a terrific Green Arrow comic being published right now! It's called "Hawkeye and Mockingbird", and it's being published by Marvel!
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
Isn't that the one where the writer boasted that it was 99% free of dead cats compared to any other archer related comic?
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 
The Grell penned GA is/isn't in continuity, more so than any pre-Crisis/IC histories. Under Grell, Ollie was more real world urban vigilante, a real Avenging Archer. When Dixon took over, it was mentioned Ollie had killed a man once before, and he retreated to an ashram to make peace with it. Dixon had Ollie kill a second time (mentioned in story) and ending up at the same ashram, this time by mistake. It led to meeting Connor and his eventual death.

Since GA:Reborn (see: Kevin Smith's QUIVER arc) his killings have not been mentioned, merely alluded to when a character, usually Dinah, wants to point out how dark Ollie's becoming. Said killings have always been spur of the moment, life v. death situations. His hunting of Prometheus shows more forethought, deliberation, and selfish revenge than true justice, almost the opposite of his previous breaches of that particular moral code.

I can see Ollie crossing the line. He uses a bow and arrow! He developed his skills as a hunter. Under Grell, Ollie would stalk the most vile criminals, make a hard decision to take a life, and move on. He didn't relish the choice, but didn't agonize over it either. Ollie would shed his guilt faster than a tear for the men he killed (not that many,) seeing his work as means to protect and serve. Simple man, simple motif, simple justice.

Krull has Oliver bemoaning his current lot in life- something he brought about all on his own by killing Prometheus and revealing his ID (scarcely secret tho it may be.) This isn't a hardened hero, a lone man seeking to save a world from corruption. This is a weak man, wallowing in self pity, avoiding his life rather than stepping up to be the hero he claims to be. Fine for an arc, but drag this out much longer, without a SERIOUS slap to the face by Speedy, and this becomes a sad tale of misplaced misery.

Krull brought energy to the Titans during his BL mini. His wrap up of the GA/BC series had the same level of energy, excitement, verve. This new series lacks all of that. Sadly, it's probably timed to pace itself with Brightest Day (good book on it's own) and that's where DC is going wrong.

If Ollie is going to distance himself from the rest of the DCU, then distance his book. If Krull is as good a writer as he's been, the book will do just fine. Stand or fall, let Green Arrow be Green Arrow.

[ September 02, 2010, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: CJ Taylor ]
 

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Posted by CJ Taylor on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
Actually, on second thought, there is a terrific Green Arrow comic being published right now! It's called "Hawkeye and Mockingbird", and it's being published by Marvel!

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quote:

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Originally posted by CJ Taylor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
Actually, on second thought, there is a terrific Green Arrow comic being published right now! It's called "Hawkeye and Mockingbird", and it's being published by Marvel!

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Hawkeye is great! He's no GA. Ollie is a hunter, Clint an action junkie. Ollie is a vigilante, Cline a super hero. I want my GA stories to involve ethical quagmires, blacks and whites and grays grounded on a level we can all appreciate. Hawkeye should be an over the top adrenaline rush, colourful adventures played out on a scale we all dream of, scaring us as often as exciting us.

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Ollie and Clint have a lot of obvious but superficial similarities. You're right especially in that they lend themselves to very different kinds of stories. In any case I've always been attracted to both of them as characters. I guess it's their combination of roguishness and being able to fight alongside of the Big Guns despite not having any powers (not including Clint's run as Goliath).

In a way, though, Clint's a lot like Ollie used to be pre-Grell. No, Clint doesn't have Ollie's politics, but their gimmicks and especially their wisecracking wit and hotheadedness echo each other a lot. Pre-Grell (and beginning with Adams/O'Neil), Ollie's adventures weren't all that much in the street-level vein outside of the classic GL/GA runs. Mostly, he was a member of the JLA hanging out in a satellite and taking on super menaces with them. He was Mr. JLA for a long time like Clint is and was Mr. Avenger.

Ironically, Hawkeye's main squeeze has also been a bird-themed blond lady! I don't know how intentional this was when they were first paired up, but it's kinda hard to ignore!

So in a way the "Hawkeye & Mockingbird" can read at least superficially like the Bronze Age version of Ollie. So I'll continue to contend that it's the best GA book currently on the stands!
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
I normally hate seeing heroes kill and think it's a real tarnishing on the DCU that nearly every so-called 'hero' they've got these days has killed someone at one time or another.

And I have definitely never been a fan of any Oliver's killings in the past (except maybe that first one back in the... 70s I think which was an accident and which he immediately repented for at that monastery).

However, I have no problem with his killing of Prometheus. In fact I applaud it. Prometheus was an almost unstoppable serial killing freak who had already killed off way too many good DCU characters. There was only one way to see him stopped and Ollie found it. (Until a writer brings him back some day.) I wish Batman would do the same to the Joker and put us all out of that story/panel-hogging misery once and for all too!

In the real world I'm an opponent of the death penalty because I beleive that even the minutest risk of error is too great. In comics, however, where we are in no doubt of a character's guilt or innocence I do believe that the worst of the worst should be executed (ie Joker, Prometheus, Mr Zazz, a few others).

Regarding Green Arrow's current book - I haven't even looked at the previews. My ship of interest in this character (and his family) sailed a long time ago (thankyou Mr Winick). Very much a shame since if it hadn't been for Ollie and the wonderful way he was written/drawn in the old JLofA book I would not be a comic fan today.
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
I can't say I agree with you in the terms of Prometheus' deserved death.

He was a monster, a psychopath, yes.

But there are other ways to make a person suffer without killing them. Ways that can leave them BEGGING to be killed.
 

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Posted by Arachne on :
 
But was it about making him suffer, or was it about making sure he could never kill again?

ETA: Never read the story myself, so I don't know the answer to that question.
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
Good point. I should've realized that. Just disregard my last post.
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
GREEN ARROW (DCnU) # 1


Looks like Ollie's got a pretty sizeable reboot going on here.

He's younger, hipper, richer and has some fun backup folks he's working with.

The 3 new villains look promising, and the last page assured I will be back for # 2. No guarantees after that though, despite an unbeatable Jurgens/Perez art team.
 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
Sorry, I found Green Arrow #1 CRAP-tacular!!
Pure & utter garbage.
Even Perez's faboo inks could not save Jurgen's rushed pencils or Krul's bland, by-the-numbers script.
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
GASP!!!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
GASP!!! Time to stop being polite and start getting real!
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
GASP! Green Arrow is horrible?! How can this-my sarcasm isn't even worth this.
 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
GASP!! I'm starting to feel bad that I was so honest, but guys, it just really sucked!!
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
GASP!!! I thought it was just okay (it was in my 'NOT BUYING # 2' stack)... until the end, which caught me!

Rhino, surely you liked the all-new all-now all-young Oliver?
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
GASP!!! Plus the writer looks like THIS:



 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
That doesn't work on me.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
GASP!!! Pull no punches reviews space-rawk!
 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
Sure he was cute, but his dialogue with the CEO of his company has been done a gazillion times before in Batman, the hot, yet brainy computer chick is a total Oracle/Aleph(Global Frequency) rip-off, Krul's attempt at "hip-young" slang was laughable and the trio of edgy, media fueled villians were uninteresting.(when I saw one had electrical powers, I was hoping they would turn out to be a Legion founders homage-but no)
I'd say my biggest problem was with Krul's dialogue-so stiff & cliche!!
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
Hmmm. You have swayed me!

GREEN ARROW goes in the NO # 2 pile!!

TAKE *THAT*, JT Krul and your adorablesauce face!!!!
 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
Worst line:
Green Arrow-"You're right. I have a lot of toys...but I don't play games!"
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
TASTE THAT CHEESE, JT Krul!!!!



 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
I'd still do him. I bet he's a power bottom!
 

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Posted by Maltshop von Sockhop on :
 
I hope so!!!! TAKE THAT CHEESE, JT KRUL!!!

*cackles nefariously*
 

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Posted by SharkLad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by lil'rhino:
Sorry, I found Green Arrow #1 CRAP-tacular!!
Pure & utter garbage.
Even Perez's faboo inks could not save Jurgen's rushed pencils or Krul's bland, by-the-numbers script.

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My thoughts exactly... worst of the bunch so far...
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Fresh off the pull no punches review by Rhino last night, I read Green Arrow with a keen eye! What I saw in my own opinion was a series that is at conflict within itself: a fantastic artist in Dan Jurgens trying to create a fresh, dynamic take on Green Arrow, with a writer in J.T. Krul who just can’t seem to find his voice.

First off, I really like the fact that with Green Arrow they got rid of his signature goatee, hood / hat and some other aspects. In 1970 or so they made a major change to his look and it was long overdue again. If they’re going to update Green Arrow, half-measures won’t work; its time to go for it.

With that in mind, I was even more thrilled by Dan Jurgen’s artwork, which I felt really was terrific all issue! Some great spy-action type moments in Paris, with a dynamic Green Arrow battling some weird super-villains. The composition was a balance between big superhero poses with tight multi-grid panels on some pages. I’ve always been a fan of Jurgen’s artwork so I enjoyed this. I’m not sure what Perez’s inks add to the pencils other than the expectation of a top-notch job (the guy’s a legend, no bones about it); however, I’ve always thought Jurgen’s very best inker was Brett Breeding. I’d love to see them work together again.

Meanwhile while a word balloon-less issue would have probably read great, the dialogue felt all wrong all issue here. It was disjointed, erratic and full of clichés. Compounded on that, Rhino revealed several big flaws such as the stereotypical CEO who argues with the company owner (Tony Stark has one of these every five years) and the mysterious woman who is an obvious Oracle analogue. Maybe these characters will grow interesting as time goes on; maybe not.

The brash opinionated pontiff is a role that has become part of the heart and soul of Green Arrow so I can’t fault Krul for playing that up. But it should be scaled back with a hint of subtly. That is, of course, unless Krul & Jurgens are purposely trying to show that this younger Green Arrow is still a bit too naïve and unrefined in his political and social opinions, but its too hard to figure out what the writers intentions may be.

The ending had Jurgen’s interesting a new slew of villains as he is apt to do (he’s definitely one of those artists that loves creating new designs for bad guys). Am I really curious to keep going. Well…eh. Enough to buy a few more issues, definitely.

Cobie Comparison: Did I enjoy it more than Justice League #1? No, I thought it missed the mark in two many places from a writing standpoint, so it was not more enjoyable than Justice League. I think between Rhino & Lash’s posts, I fall somewhere in the middle.
 

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Posted by Debbie T. Tastic on :
 
Now I never said I loved it or anything... It was on my 'NO for # 2' list until the last page got me curious about the slew of new villains.

But I def liked it better than LULZrhino.

I'm torn on # 2. I'll see how my funds go next month.
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
I must be the only person in the world who liked Green Arrow, except maybe J.T. Krul's mom. This despite the flaws which other people have pointed out - the dialogue, the trying so hard to be trendy and techy (and it took forever for Supercharge to charge up). Sure it's totally unrealistic, the superstar industrialist, rich, young and handsome, too with an array of unbelievable tools; maybe it reminds me of the 1960s and I'm 10 years old again. Don't look too closely, because the Q-Pad is probably manufactured by slave labour.

The thing is, I've always really really wanted to like Green Arrow but haven't much liked the book in recent years. I like the concept, how he's essentially Batman without the angsty past and anger. Ollie seems to be having more fun with playing superhero. You can see his downfall coming, he's going to get turfed out or ruined by Emerson, then he'll be poor fighting for the poor. Maybe.

Anyways, I think I'll keep it for a while and I hope Rhino will still love me, regardless of my taste in comics.
 

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Posted by Dr. Tot Rocket on :
 
GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!!!

Looks like GREEN ARROW will be co-written by KEITH GIFFEN and DAN JURGENS as of # 4.

Looks like I'm sticking around for it.
 

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Posted by Dr. Tot Rocket on :
 
And JT himself just confirmed his exit from GA over on his Facebook page! Rejoice, Rhino!!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Tot Rocket:
And JT himself just confirmed his exit from GA over on his Facebook page!

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quote:

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In the DC Comics offices, on one particular wall, sits a white board, tracking each of the new 52 series, split into a number of sections.

Whether the writing and the art are comic in on schedule, the nature of the reviews the book is receiving and any perceived tone or story problems.

As simple as it sounds, books are marked Green (good to go), Yellow (needs fill-in issues to stay on schedule, editorial review), Red (on the chopping block) or ‘X’ (cancelled).

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Posted by Dr. Tot Rocket on :
 
Just so they know, this freelancer is well-prepared to co-pitch a MATTER-EATER LAD: THE SERIES comic, a MLL'Ester joint!
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
Giff and Jurgens? That's good enough news.

Sign me up for MEL: THE SERIES too.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I read #1 last night expecting not to like it based on the negative buzz, but I found that while it had its flaws, I overall enjoyed it. Maybe part of this was that I like Dan Jurgens' art--that never hurts.

I think it was that I enjoyed reading a version of Ollie that didn't have all that character's baggage and, well, who was younger. It's not that I have anything against older characters at all, but it seems that after a good start with Kevin Smith that Ollie just fell into a mess with different writers either having no idea what to do with him or making poor choices like all of that stuff that spun out of Cry for Justice. Basically, too much crappy stuff had been done with Ollie and his "family" to really be recovered from other than to start over.

I LOVE Marvel (Hawkeye) and DC's main archers when they're done right, and all-too-often, they are subject to misstep after misstep. Ollie's character here isn't as complex as the one we've known all these years. The only baggage he appears to have is some mysterious tragedy that happened that he feels he could have prevented. Maybe he'll emerge as more of the cranky liberal we're all familiar with. Maybe he won't. Having a clean slate could do him a world of good.

I liked that the book had a slightly retro feel to it. there was nothing terribly angsty in it. We're introduced to some new supporting cast and a subplot or two. We see an old school super villain battle in which Ollie shows his competence at what he does. Yes, it was definitely on the vanilla side and without much of an edge, but maybe that's just what Ollie needs at the moment to cleanse the palate after what came before. It kinda worked for me, at least.

I'm going to try to pick up the book at least until I see what Giffen and Jurgens bring to the table as writers. It's decent now, and I anticipate it'll be that much better when they take over.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Wow! This just in! So I guess Giffen/Jurgens were fill-ins? Ann's run on DD was a classic, so DC has my attention, at least!
 

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Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
J'adore Nocenti!
I guess I'll be givin' this title another shot.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Also thrilled! Love Nocenti and have been hoping for her to do a nice long run on a comic for years! Green Arrow seems like a perfect fit for her among DC's characters!
 

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Posted by LASHbrain on :
 
Wow, this is kind of a big deal here. DC's bringing not only sexy back but lots of long-lost creators!
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
Issue #2: pretty much more of the same, Ollie fighting a jet-setting gang who do snuff videos on youtube and create general mayhem. We learn that Q-Corp was Ollie's father's company. Ollie shoots hoops with an NBA star, has another run-in with the boss, and shows off some high-tech gear.

I spent most of the issue trying to imagine how his bow retracts to such a compact form.

At this point, Oliver Queen is a young version of Bruce Wayne without the psycho angst (as far as we know) - rich vigilante, no super-powers, lots of physical training and tech. He seems to view his Green Arrow as more of a game than a focused mission like Batman.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
While #2 was almost exactly the same as #1, I kind of liked it a bit more for some reason. I'm really digging the artwork, so perhaps seeing Ollie in action against a wide variety of new super villains did it for me.

I'm really just eagerly awaiting Nocenti's arrival (someone should tell Fanfie!), but I'm hoping these issues still give me some enjoyment. I think Krul has one more and then Giffen joins Jurgens, so that should be a fun few issues too.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
A little birdie did tell me, Cobie, and I'm guardedly optimistic.

What I liked about Ann's Daredevil was the way she mixed supernatural elements into the crime drama. Don't know if Green Arrow will afford her the chance to do that, but we shall see. I'm certainly intrigued by what her take on Ollie will be.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Ann Nocenti's views on Ollie

I have to say, at first I thought she was being a bit harsh, but I quickly came around to agreeing with her. Now I'm really looking forward to her arrival.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Wow, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reactions to Nocenti's comments!
 

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Posted by Fat Cramer on :
 
Well, I didn't find her harsh at all, I pretty much agreed with her as well. Don't know if I'll enjoy her swashbuckler version, unless she has Ollie learning a lot of tough lessons. At this point, he's young and full of potential. As Nocenti said, he needs chutzpah to carry off his Green Arrow game; however, we learned in Red Hood that he ripped off Roy Harper, so maybe he has too much chutzpah. Not that I'd want that changed, I'd just like to see him tempered, matured, deepened over time - for me, that's where the interest is in the Green Arrow character. If he just stays a swashbuckler, yawn.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
FC, Nocenti put Daredevil through some VERY tough, life-altering lessons, so I have faith she'll do the same for Green Arrow.

I really wish Marvel would collect her entire DD run, instead of just the Typhoid Mary arc and the early issues of the road trip arc. I've said this in another thread, but it was the closest Marvel came in the late 80s to publish its own equivalent of DC's proto-Vertigo books.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Gotta love a DD writer who pits him against Mephisto!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Nocenti's DD run is my Dad's favorite in the characters history (including Miller and even Wally Wood) so her return to comics may be enough for him to read Green Arrow!
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Lardy, yes indeed! It made perfect sense, and I'm sure other writers were tempted to do it before, but it was Nocenti who took the plunge and made a triumphant achievement.

Cobie, your Dad rocks!!
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Man! I wish I had some idea where I've stored my old DDs! I'd LOVE to reread Nocenti's run. I remember how friggin' AWESOME that Inferno(?) tie-in was! The rest of the "event" was pretty shitty, but that double-sized Nocenti-written issue was TerRIFfic!

Fickles (which, btw, is SO much better than "Fanfie"! ), did you like Romita Jr.'s art at that point? I recall you've been outspoken about your distaste for his blocky style that debuted around that run and continues to this day.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Lardy, I think JR Jr's style worked perfectly for Daredevil, particularly with the kind of moody, creepy, atmospheric scripts Nocenti was writing. It's when he tries to do straight-ahead superheroics, like his second Uncanny X-Men run or his recent Avengers run, that I think he fails utterly.

Totally agree on the Inferno tie-ins BTW.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I recall he drew Mephisto differently than ANYone else--very creepy and otherworldly! I'd liken it to Simonson's reimagining of Surtur in his classic thor run. Too bad both depictions fell by the wayside....
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Again, I totally agree. His Mephisto was like something out of a nightmare, where most Mephisto interpretations are utterly lacking in menace (excepting John Buscema, who drew Mephisto's first appearance.)
 

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Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
 
Guys, I have a question.

I'm not truly sure of all the details, but, I read that Green Arrow was raped by the woman called Shado, and everyone treated it like Ollie cheated on Black Canary.

Then, in the Blackest Night issue, did they retcon it as consensual sex?
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Pretty sure that wasn't rape, Sarky. IIRC, it was basically Ollie being Ollie.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Thats how I remember it too.

Given how that era of GA did not shy away from that topic, there wouldnt be that much ambiguity.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I think he was injured or something, and she was caring for him while he healed up and....baung-chikka-WAOW-WAOW!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Thats why Ollie always gets injured!
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
Ollie was delirious from pain medications and so on at the time he first had sex with Shado, so the quality of his consent is questionable (hence the 'rape' interpretation).

One thing that's always bugged me about fandom's view of Ollie in the 90s was that he was a cheat on Dinah. Critics of the character always use that fault to disparage him but until that hack Judd Winick came along YEARS after the rumor started and had him cheat with Black Lightning's niece, Ollie had never actually done so.

The closest he ever got was the Shado 'rape' and a moment at a party when a teen stalker named Maryanne kissed him by surprise (which, in grand soap opera fashion, also happened to be the moment Dinah walked in and saw them).

You'd think a new Green Arrow writer would take the opportunity to put that malicious rumor to rest and build the character up. But no, Judd Winick never met a DC character he couldn't damage in some way so in his very first story with the character he goes out of his way to turn a false accusation against Ollie into a true one in the most sensationalistic way possible. And then the army of Green Arrow haters (of which there seem to be a lot, especially if you hang out on a Birds of Prey board) had even more reason to hate him. Gee, thanks Judd.

Judd Winick & Green Arrow = when bad writing happens to good characters.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
Shado and Ollie had a definite connection. While I don't have perfect recall of the story in question, it seemed inevitable that something like this would eventually happen between them. In any case I don't ever recall Ollie ever expressing that he was violated. He definitely felt guilt over its implications for him and Dinah, though.

(Winnick certainly ran with the womanizing take, though.)
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
Shado and Ollie definitely had a 'connection' but IMO it was always more as kindred archer/warrior spirits than as 'lovers'. It's also true that the scene in question was vague (hence my referring to the rape as an 'interpretation') and that Ollie (as far as I recall) never referred to it as rape or reported it as such. But then, a rape doesn't have to be reported to exist.

I actually think the scene could be read either way and am not a strong advocate for either interpretation over the other.

One thing I do feel strongly about though is that it was an intense, vulnerable moment for Ollie when he was not in full control of his senses and thoughts, and it shouldn't be held up as evidence by the legion of Ollie-haters who want to paint him as a cad.

(Not that I'm saying anyone here was doing so but if you ask any Green Arrow-hater out there for a reason why and 9 times out of 10 they'll give you this one.)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
<= Not a hater at all.

I've always liked Green Arrow, and Hawkeye as well at Marvel. Both are similar for obvious reasons and because, well, their personalities have been more distinct than most of their heroic brethren. I love their swashbuckling sensibilities and the real passion they seem to put into what they do.

Between the two, I've definitely been partial to Ollie. Doesn't hurt at all that Ollie had a long solo run with Mike Grell at the writing helm. Since then, he was killed off and mostly handled hideously ever since. I liked Kevin Smith's stories, had mixed feelings about Meltzer's arc and Winnick finally drove me off the book after a fairly strong start to his run.

So with all that in mind, I'm not so sure that even Grell's version has ever seemed like a monogamous type. **I always loved him and Dinah as a couple, though.** It always seemed inevitable that Ollie was going to stray eventually, and when Shado showed up, I knew something would eventually happen between them. I think maybe Mike was afraid to make it outright cheating in the end, so he created the scenario as it happened to smooth it over somewhat.

Heroes like Ollie's type are thrillseekers by nature. I distinguish this type from Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and many others in a way. Ollie was originally a rich guy who was not driven by some profound tragedy that drove what he did. This is not to lessen his heroism, but he is still primarily a thrillseeker living a testosterone-driven fantasy. He's less likely to live by society's rules and may ultimately not be satisfied in a monogamous relationship.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that he needs to **** anything that moves like Winnick seemed to have him do, but his not being able to keep a monogamous relationship seems to fit his character profile, IMO. I think he genuinely loves Dinah, but there's a narcissism there that will make it harder for him than most to truly commit, I think.
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 
Lardy, Blacula, both you guys make really good points. I haven't read most of the stories in question, as what little I've read of the Grell run was not to my liking -- I found it too self-consciously "adult" and "serious" (I really wish Grell had been given Batman instead of Green Arrow.) To be perfectly honest, nobody since Denny O'Neil really seems to "get" Ollie IMO. The one who came closest for me was Mike W. Barr in the 1983 mini-series that Trevor Von Eeden drew, but even there Ollie was a bit too mellow.

It's a really hard balancing act for a writer between the devil-may-care thrill-seeker and the self-appointed savior of the downtrodden. Some talented (and some not-so-talented) writers have tried and failed; it's therefore inevitable that Ollie often comes off as a caricature. Nocenti is facing a considerable challenge, but I think she's up to the task.
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
I'm curious to see what Ann does as well. Difference is, this ain't the same Ollie! He's been de-aged and is much more of a clean slate. I suppose it had to be done, though, because Ollie's character had been ripped to shreds over the last few years.

I couldn't stick with the current series beyond issue 2 the way it was, so I'm awaiting next week's issue 7 to see if she can revitalize the character. I'm hopeful!
 

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Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
 

quote:

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Orignally posted by Lard Lad:
Difference is, this ain't the same Ollie! He's been de-aged and is much more of a clean slate. I suppose it had to be done, though, because Ollie's character had been ripped to shreds over the last few years.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:
I didn't much like the first Nocenti arc, although thinking about it she may have been saying something about how women will sell their souls - or abandon their independence - for the illusion of love. (Assuming true love would not demand you give up your independence....) In that sense, the story was interesting, and Green Arrow was more or less superfluous, or interchangeable with any guy who happened along to challenge Daddy.

However, I thought Issue #10 (a done-in-one story!) was a big notch above the initial arc. Ironically, again, Green Arrow himself was somewhat irrelevant - only the agent to uncover and move the story along. A news reporter or determined nosy parker could have done the same (except knock out the big bad monster with a fancy arrow).

Arrow prevents a young woman from committing suicide when she runs her motorcycle off a bridge. Thankful? No. She is, or thinks she is, a robot and wants to end it. Ollie Queen investigates and finds a company selling domestic robots. He investigates further as Green Arrow and finds this company giving people robotic body parts, some a few, some a lot - and a chip which suppresses emotions and memories. The owner claims that people come to him because they're tired of their humanity. Are they? Are they robots or humans at this point? They don't know, and GA and the reader are left guessing. The story ends with a visit to Robots Anonymous, a group where these robot/human mixes can go to be open about their adaptations.

It's a very interesting take on the post-human idea.

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