PopCultureShock has the cover and first five pages to Countdown posted for preview. But they are having bandwidth issues. I've managed to get copies of the images so we can review them here. Thank the folks over at PCS and rate it if you are interested.
Now the preview:
[ March 22, 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Lightning Lad ]
Posted by RTVU2 on :
i really hope that isn't ted bats is holding on the cover...
thanks LL!
Posted by Princess Crujectra on :
It kinda looks like it... the eyes have a sort of goggle quality to them. If it is, I hope he gets a cleaner send off than poor Sue Dibny. Oh wait... of course he will... he's a man
[ March 22, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Princess Crujectra ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Anytime. And I hope the same. I'd hate to see BB taken out.
But then I wonder. Wasn't the original Crisis how he was introduced into the mainstream DCU? Maybe DC has lost the rights to all those Charlton characters and now have to find a way to get rid of them. Posted by RTVU2 on :
or maybe this is a way to reinvent/update Ted.
I really like what DC is doing now in its books. With the inter connections that you see but pick up on.
Like Morrisons 3 part JLA:Classified can be a precusor to 7 Soliders. Elements intro in that story were later seen as the Sheeda in 7 Soliders.
Spoliers here!
s p a c e
If you have been reading the azz and lee Superman, O.M.A.C. just made an apperance. All the stuff happening from the Titans to the JSA to the JLA to the Outsiders to IC are all interconnected and in continuity with each other in a good way. Great stories and art on their own but read all togethere provides a richer story telling experenice.
Was all that clear? I've been sick -congenstaion and cough - all last week until now and still on my meds Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I also hope that's not Ted on the cover - although even if it is, he doesn't have to be dead, right?
Either way, I'm glad he ditched that new black suit he's got over in JLA:Classified.
Posted by Yellow King on :
That's some interesting speculation there LL. It makes me wonder about the terms of DC's acquisition of the Charleton characters.
Maybe they're setting up a return of the real Blue Beetle (the guy that flies and shoots red rays from his hands and had a real 'jones' for commies - I was quite disappointed with Ditko's BB reboot).
Yeah right, just like we'll see the real Captain Atom instead of the Cap reboot we've got now.
Posted by Princess Crujectra on :
quote:Originally posted by RTVU2: or maybe this is a way to reinvent/update Ted.
Well, doesn't Kyle Rayner need a new identity? The Green Beetle? Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
Yeah, I think it's gotta be Ted.
I also think they should have stayed with "DC Countdown" as a title.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Someone already spilled the beans about who Batman is holding and why (They saw an advance copy of this book.)
S P I O L E R -
SPOILED:Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) dies in this story.
Blue Beetle is one of my all-time favorite characters and I'll be extremely displeased if Ted is in fact killed for good. Done right, I think he could give Spider-Man a run for his money.
And since they just published an Action Heroes Archive, I doubt that they lost the license. Or at least, I hope they didn't.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
**sigh** This is pulling me right in. I like that more serious portrayal of Beetle (vs. Giffen's).
Posted by matlock on :
Well, that's one more thing for me to skip buying. Thanks as always DC!
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Um...Don't read the following if you don't want to know. But...
S P O I L E R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
F i l l i n g
u p
s p a c e
...um...um...um...
quote:Posted by kswolf:
Beetle is shot in the back of the head by Maxwell Lord. It happens on panel, and we even see an exit wound in the front of Beetle's skull. He's definitely dead. Max, by the way, is revealed to be the new "King" of Checkmate.
By the way Ty, if you haven't read it, yourself, I've heard that Dan Garrett's scarab appears, and is in some way connected to Shazam's Rock of Eternity. Maybe they'll revive Ted through mystical means, involving the scarab, and turn him into a supernatural type hero. There's at least some hope, at least. Why show the scarab, if it doesn't have some sort of purpose?
[ March 24, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Is it DC's intent to totally screw up any fun the Giffen and DeMattis JL is giving us? What's next? Fire and Ice in a murder/suicide pact? Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
You gotta wonder if Keith knew about this beforehand as well.
Posted by Pov on :
MotherF*CK.
'scusee, 'scusee... pardon.
Gary ain't kidding. If you don't want it spoiled, do NOT highlight his spoiler.
^#$%#$*%##$%%(^$#^$#@*(!
(Man, I am one weak-willed moron... Definitely not GL material! )
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Aw, don't be too hard on yourself Bri. You have better willpower than me. Posted by RTVU2 on :
i read it too.
WOW.
Posted by SiliconDream on :
Yeah, it does kind of seem like somebody high up hates poor Keith. I just hope he keeps on plugging on Justice League, ignoring all this--maybe it'll develop its own pocket universe by literary momentum and that'll precipitate the real upcoming Crisis.
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
Well there goes my chance of getting it. DC and Marvel are getting less and less of my money.
Posted by Blacula on :
NOOOOOooooo....
I saw that box and thought 'Don't highlight it! Don't highlight it! Don't highlight it' So what did I do? Highlight it! Ugh! I could never be a GL either! Posted by Nightcrawler on :
For those who read my spoiler and are pissed off by it, there's a petition you can sign. This sort of thing saved Spider-Girl's series twice and may have helped bring Donna Troy back.
Click on this link only if you read the spoiler.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
And here's an additional 11-pages of story.
DO NOT CLICK THIS LINK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
And for those of you who really want to know everything (like me ), click here to read a play-by-play of the entire issue.
Do I really have to say this is a MEGA-SPOILER?
Posted by Star Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: click here to read a play-by-play of the entire issue.
I don't know whether to thank you or not, Gary... Posted by Doc Nimbus on :
Eeeeeeep! Must..... resist.....
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Oh what the hell. I'm all alone at work on a Friday. Can't get any more depressed than over what I've already read and heard. *click link*
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
*sigh*
At least the art looked good.
And can someone tell me, what has happened to Wonder Woman's sight? I've not read a WW story since I was Byrned. Did she lose her sight recently?
Posted by matlock on :
Well, having read all the spoilers and the preview and all, this is either more cheap death for not much purpose, or worse a cynical fakeout death. What's kind of sad is that the first time DC needed to clean out the grim/gritty crap it was Giffen who came sailing to the rescue? Who's going to do it next time?
Posted by RTVU2 on :
Hey LL,
Wondy had a big battle with a revived by Circe Medusa. Medusa called upon her favored good Ares to do a public battle with Wondy, but not before attacking her embassy stuff and turning a child of a staffer into stone.
So the do public battle and it gets played on television across the world. They battle, Wondy gets a hit, medusa gets a hit, wondy chops of some snake hair, and then medusa gives Wondy a very bad blow where she would have to look at Medusa and be turned to stone. Seeing that there is nothing left to do, Wondy sees the snakes she had chopped of Medusa earlier. She takes them and gouges them into her eyes so she becomes blind. Medusa is so taken aback by this move that it allows Wondy to gain the upper hand,take her sword and cut Medusa's head off. From the blood of Medusa comes the black Peaguas (sp?) she has been flying on.
This blindness is a mystical blindness and can't be cured by the purple healing ray or anything like that.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Thanks for the synopsis VU! Makes me wonder if they'll clear up her blindness before Countdown.
Posted by RTVU2 on :
Just read everything and some more comments on the other website.
I am not disapppointed. This stuff happens all the time. It happend with Crisis, Zero Hour, Amargeddon 2001. All this stuff is cylical. I have no probelm wiht what happened. This is the first part, the first morsel, or what is to come. I look forward to seeing how everything else gets played out and what they really have in store for us. All those writers set stuff up where we are all thinking one way but go off in a different direction.
Let's see what happens.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
You know, this news might make my father, who bought his first comic off the rack in 1960, quit comics. I'm shocked. I'm definately not going to tell him. That character is one of his all-time favorites.
Sigh.
Posted by Yellow King on :
I haven't read the spolier yet (but I plan on it) but my thought is that this isn't the end of BB but is instead the first action in a Blue Beetle power-up. Having read that there's a minor Dan Garret connection makes me hope they're going to tie in a closer connection between the two guys.
Posted by Reboot on :
Anyone see why I've sworn off DC Comics yet?
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Anyone see why I've sworn off DC Comics yet?
As if Marvel is any better? Posted by Yellow King on :
Ok, read the breakdown at Superherochat and that isn't a just a little throwaway scene with the scarab. Cool.
...and just for the record and probably because I've never mentioned it before...but I really hate Captain Marvel.
...is it safe to talk about the article at SHC? I don't want to damage this as a discussion thread for new readers any more than necessary.
Posted by Pov on :
quote:As if Marvel is any better?
*cough*HawkeyeWandaVision*cough*
[ March 25, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Pov ]
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Anyone see why I've sworn off DC Comics yet?
As if Marvel is any better?
As long as you avoid books with the words "Bendis," "Straczynski" or "Waid" on them
[ March 25, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot:
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: Anyone see why I've sworn off DC Comics yet?
As if Marvel is any better?
As long as you avoid books with the words "Bendis," "Straczynski" or "Waid" on them
You forgot the ones that use "X" in their title or to spell their name to make it "unique". Posted by Beagz on :
OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!
I just HAD to read the spoiler!! I can't believe it!!
THEY KILLED CAPTAIN KIRK!!!!!!!
Oh wait ... wrong series.
Anyway, I'd love to see a more serious slant on this. Maybe DC is attempting to make the character a bit more serious than has been written in the past. I think a rather serious series would kick butt!! And, unfortunately, take more of my money. But that's okay, seeing as to how I'm still dropping series. Posted by Pov on :
I'm suddenly very afear'd fer Capt. Carrot & his amazing Zoo Crew! Posted by matlock on :
Aren't there enough "serious" characters around already?
Posted by MLLASH on :
MORE than enough, which is why books like Marvel's current SHE-HULK and Giffen/Maguire's JLA minis tend to be my favorites.
I'm rereading their first mini right now. Pure excellence. Busted out laughing agai when L-Ron says, "Have a reasonably bearable day" and asked Billy Batson if Billy and Captain Marvel were dating.
I was TRYING not to let Sue's fate ruin the current Giff/Mags arc in JLA classified... but now I have bad news about 2 more of the castmembers to deal with. *sigh*
But I guess Giffen shouldn't have said he would never do JLA again.... Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Pov: I'm suddenly very afear'd fer Capt. Carrot & his amazing Zoo Crew!
Not to worry! I've heard the rumor that Captain Carrot and the gang will be major characters in 2006!
Uh... that's a good thing right... Posted by Danny Blaine on :
I've read the spoilers and I have to admit, I'm pretty excited to be a DC fan right now.
I'm most anxious about the return of Donna Troy. Hopefully, Lilith won't be far behind...
Posted by Beagz on :
I agree that DC has plenty of serious characters, but somehow I just liked this one when he played it straight, so to speak.
He's not a bumbling boob ... or at least, he doesn't have to be. He ran his own business and made a nice fortune. I don't think it was quite the level of the Wayne fortune, but still ...
I think you can have fun with a character, but still maintain him or her as a serious one.
You could still have some of the off-the-wall antics with one team-up. But neither of those two have to be just one constant joke.
'sides, didn't this one particular character play it straight in BoP?
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Yellow King: ...and just for the record and probably because I've never mentioned it before...but I really hate Captain Marvel.
Out of curiosity, why?
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: For those who read my spoiler and are pissed off by it, there's a petition you can sign. This sort of thing saved Spider-Girl's series twice and may have helped bring Donna Troy back.
DC claims they always had it in mind to bring her back, as hinted in the last panels of the Titans/Young Justice mini, but who knows for sure?
I think I'm going to hold off on any kind of petition thing until I know whether DC intends this to be for "real" or "comic book real".
Posted by ferroboy on :
quote:Originally posted by SiliconDream: Yeah, it does kind of seem like somebody high up hates poor Keith. I just hope he keeps on plugging on Justice League, ignoring all this--maybe it'll develop its own pocket universe by literary momentum and that'll precipitate the real upcoming Crisis.
Maybe Levitz is having his revenge for the TMK Legion. Posted by SiliconDream on :
"Blow up Earth, will you? Take this! Ha, right in the Dibny!"
Posted by Yellow King on :
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner:
quote:Originally posted by Yellow King: ...and just for the record and probably because I've never mentioned it before...but I really hate Captain Marvel.
Out of curiosity, why?
I just never liked Cap and I never liked Beck's artwork. DC got the rights to Fawcett and shoved him into everything and I got so sick of him that I think I developed an allergy. I didn't like the silly cartoon world of a supposedly serious hero and I always thought the stories were horribly weak anyway.
..or maybe I just didn't like the cartoonish art and that stupid talking tiger...over the years it's grown on me so that I don't automatically detest all of it but I still don't like Cap, he's an arrogant prick. That and I really don't like mixing magic into science fiction. Forcing Billy and company into a more serious fictional universe just ruined whatever charm they had and added a great deal of unecessary clutter to the DCverse.
I really disliked Thunder in the Legion but realized that she was there for a reason so I gave her a chance. She's no Supergirl but she did have the potential.
Oddly enough Captain Marvel Jr. almost made it into being a cool character despite the name and Mary Marvel is a superb subject for "Good Girl" art.
So what I really meant there is that it looks like they're going to tie the Scarab to the Rock of Eternity somehow and I'm so excited to see an element from the Golden Age Blue Beetle brought back into the light that I'm willing to set aside my resistance to all things Shazam and get the book anyway. I mean it depends on what happens here but if this is the powerup/reboot I suspect it is then it's possible I could buy my first copy of Blue Beetle since ...what?..1966 or '67.
Posted by Yellow King on :
...and I just discovered that the Blue Beetle I was buying as a little kid was a reboot himself. Blue union suit, red gloves and red goggles it seems he'd gotten himself reimagined before it was popular and everyone else started doing it.
So now that I've thouroughly confused myself I'll shut up.
Posted by Star Boy on :
For those that have never had the pleasure: The Original(ish) Blue Beetle in scratchy stereophonic glory! The Blue Beetle at Radio Lovers Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Wow! Thanks Wayne! I love that stuff! Great website!
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
So whats the difference in the "new, true cover", other than the title?
Posted by Pov on :
Nada. Posted by Reboot on :
Just in a chat with a guy who just got spoiled on Countdown (quoted with permission):
quote:And...other things to talk about: DC Countdown. In the name of Our Lord Magneto, why?
Damn you, DC. Damn you all to H*ll.
Who's the idiot responsible for this?
Me: Blame Geoff Johns, Judd Winick, Greg Rucka and Dan DiDido BTW.
While I liked Johns’ early Avengers issues (pre-Vegas), his DC stuff, I not like so much, between his abuse of Impulse, and the Green Lantern whitewash, and now he’s part of this?
If DC wants to do "dark/gritty/mature" stories that involve heroes’ wives being raped and killed, or heroes being brutally murdered, I’d have a lot less of a problem with it if it wasn’t the fun characters from the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League that kept getting screwed over like this.
Posted by Yellow King on :
Wonderful SB!! Thanks.
...and that's my point about Blue Beetle, he has a serious history and predates the Silver Age by quite a bit. Nowhere in the current incarnation of the character do we get a hint of this.
Legacy characters are just fine by me but I do want at least a passing mention of it once in a while. For instance Nightwing mentions being trained by Batman several times a year. Yeah, This Beetle recieved the old Beetle's blessing in an origin story but after that it got dropped and forgotten.
I may be the only one but I am certainly looking forward to this. Justice for Dan Garret! Finally.
Posted by Jorg-EM on :
Regarding Beetle as the boob. Jurgen's JLA did a good job not to show him as the boob but still was comic relief.
he's suppossed to be cool & funny like Spider Man...and he became Rodney Dangerfield. doh! Which I didn't mind the Giffen/DeMatteis version at all but they could've used him more seriously elsewhere.
All he needs is a few cool guest star roles in Batman.
Booster Gold was also bad for the Beetle cause he's always been a joke kinda.
Mister Miracle on the other hand would've been a cooler partner.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
You know, my Dad and me just completed our GOLDEN AGE Blue Beetle collection too.
I agree with Jorg--he's supposed to be cool and funny like Spider-Man, but NOT Rodney Dangerfield. I loved Giffen's JLI, but I thought Beetle started to kind of get the shaft as he went on. I'd like to see him played a little straiter, which is actually what Giffen has been doing in his two latest series. I liked the way Jurgens portrayed him in the pre-Doomsday JLI/A and Dixon did in BoP.
Ah...I just hope this isn't the end of Ted Kord.
Posted by Reboot on :
I was half awake when I followed a link to Pop Culture Shock, the site that hosts Tim O'Neil's comic remixes. I laughed out loud at the front page. I moved to page two. I was confused. Where were the jokes? This wasn't very funny. Page three. Still no jokes. Hmm.
At this point the penny dropped that I was not reading one of Tim's parodies. I was in fact reading a genuine preview of a DC comic. But with a title like COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE CRISIS, you can hardly blame me for getting confused.
I gawped in disbelief for a bit, and then headed off in search of coffee.
Posted by Rurouni KJS on :
Why did I read the spoiler? Although I had a feeling something like that was coming, I'm still upset.
More and more, I think killing off characters is a lousy thing:
"It's a helluva thing, killing a man. You not only kill everything he was, but everything he's ever gonna be." from the film Unforgiven.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
I knew it when they first released the pic. I even said so over at DC.
But dang it, why am i always right about the bad stuff?
Never the good stuff.
Posted by profh0011 on :
"When you kill a man, you better LOOK at him!" --from HANG 'EM HIGH
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Two days before arriving in stores on March 30, the Countdown to Infinite Crisis Special has sold out at DC Comics.
DC is rushing the comic back to press for a second printing with a new, variant cover by Jim Lee and Alex Ross that reveals the shadowy figure in Batman's arms as the Blue Beetle.
Scheduled to arrive in stores on April 13, Countdown to Infinite Crisis Second Printing will have a cover price of $1.99, and will include the full story written by Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka and Judd Winick with art by Rags Morales and Michael Bair, Ed Benes, Ivan Reis and Marc Campos, Phil Jimenez and Andy Lanning, and Jesus Saiz and Jimmy Palmiotti.
"Even with the new price of $1.99, Countdown is the single best value in comics today," said Bob Wayne, DC's VP -- Sales. "As the four miniseries that follow start to reach stores, retailers will want to have Countdown in stock, so we recommend that they place orders for this second printing now."
Basically double the price to reveal the body? I guess we are full blown back to the days of alternate covers now.
Posted by matlock on :
I decided to keep my dollar rather than buy this book. I did see it rated a blurb on the front of the Living section of USA Today though the blurb implied that DC was killing off a grand old character from the 30's which is a little off the mark.
Posted by RTVU2 on :
I bought it and I am not disappointed at all. For a buck you get a great story and the beginings of something huge that is about to drop.
[ March 30, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: RTVU2 ]
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Well, the original Blue Beetle first appeared in Mystery Men #1 in 1939 so not much of a stretch. Except, of course, our BB is not the same one, but he inherited the mantle. And it was in USA Today. It doesn't take too much to confuse their readers so why split hairs. Posted by Reboot on :
Plus, of course, Jim Lee said @ the time the solicit was released that the final cover would show who it was. Clearly, the chance for some extra €$£ was too much for DC
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: Basically double the price to reveal the body? I guess we are full blown back to the days of alternate covers now.
True, but at least this is a second printing and not a variant.
Really no point in getting both.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
But it is a variant. It will have a different cover and that classifies it as a variant. Not that I'll get it. Unless I can pick it up for 50% off through DCBS.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
I guess I tend to see true variants as appearing at the same time as the original, while one's that don't are just "different". But one's mileage may vary.
But they do use the word "variant" in the article, so what do I know?
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
I don't know if Wizard just threw this together or if they actually already have the cover, but I just got this in an e-mail advertising the sale of the second printing.
[ March 30, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Lightning Lad ]
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I've never been a "screw DC" kinda person or a "I'll never buy another comic again!" kinda person and I don't even give a crap about Blue Beetle, but this story sucked. It's like "Emerald Twilight" where you can't help but feel editorial edict all over the story. This book is just a big ad for the upcoming new series that are coming out - nothing more, nothing less. It just pissed over an entire era of DC's history -- a great one too, imo.
I never bought the "Checkmate" book - I'd like to hear from fans of that old book about this reemergence of this government agency. Personally, the whole "government agency that doesn't trust meta-humans and has secret files on them" thing strikes me as "been there, done that." There's also really no reason why anyone would be so distrusting of DC's heroes. At least in the cartoon, they had the excuse of the "brainwased by Darkseid Superman" as a good reason.
Posted by Vee on :
Well...I guess I see this differently. While never a huge fan I've always liked Ted Kord but always hated that he and Booster were played for comedic relief as boobs (no...not those type of boobs, Cobie...get your mind out of the gutter! ) Very much like in the Subs special, I hate seeing valiant, though not all powerful, heroes made to look like nothing but fools nad laughing stocks. Heorism has nothing to do with how powerful one is but what one does with the talents and courage one has.
I felt this issue did a great job of showing BB's true heroism. He proved himself to be the equal of some extraordinarily talented detectives and uncovered a tremndous threat to the DCU hero community. Not only did he discover it, but is able to destroy the database in the process which must cause some problems for Lord's master plan.
I hate that he's been killed but Ted met his death in a truly heroic manner. When his moment of glory arrived he was more than equal to the task.
"There is no greater love than to give one's life up for one friends"
PS: I do suspect that there will be a new Blue Beetle at the end of this. Ted himself sets the stage for the new BB's arrival. I think it will come out of the Day of Vengence mini involving the magic portion of the DCU and will be somehow magical in nature. Why else would the scarab be needed by the Old Wizard?
Posted by RTVU2 on :
quote:Originally posted by DrakeB3004: I never bought the "Checkmate" book - I'd like to hear from fans of that old book about this reemergence of this government agency. Personally, the whole "government agency that doesn't trust meta-humans and has secret files on them" thing strikes me as "been there, done that." There's also really no reason why anyone would be so distrusting of DC's heroes. At least in the cartoon, they had the excuse of the "brainwased by Darkseid Superman" as a good reason.
Actually the Checkmate thing has been going on for awhile in the Batman Books. Checkmate has been protrayed more of a loose cannon kinda place. Sasha Bordeaux - the Bodyguard - is now a Checkmate agent and I though the Huntress was a Queen along with Amanda Waller.
One thing that no one has metioned is the DC Corporate logos that appear on the bottom of the screen Ted is at. I see Camdus, Star Labs, OMAC, Task Force X and DEO. What are the other two? The Winged M and Progene Tech?
Posted by Reboot on :
Shouldn't it have been Task Force Omega, as it was at last report?
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Besides losing BB and other obvious criticisms of where DC is headed with this, did anyone else enjoy the artwork? I thought for the five (it was five wasn't it) different artists working on the book that it came through very artisically sound. I didn't even realize I was seeing more than one artist's work until at least halfway through.
Posted by Blacula on :
I agree Lightning Lad. The art in this issue was *excellent*! And they flowed together seamlessly.
Even Ivan Reis, who I'd been very unimpressed with in the past, did good in my eyes. I'm a little less upset about him taking over the Titans now. And Phil Jiminez brought his A-game too! This guy can be very hit or miss with me (I think a lot of that may have to do with his inkers though) but his work was superb here.
Poor Ted Kord! And Maxwell Lord! And Skeets! And the Giffen-era Justice League! I guess this is officially the last nail in their coffin now. R.I.P.
Posted by Stargazer on :
I did enjoy the art in this as well. With so many artist it was very consistant. Now I am ticked that they killed Blue Beetle. I think his death was pointless. WHY DC WHY ?? Was it shock value? I have always liked Ted, even in his own series. Then he was teamed with Booster, the League, had some weight issues, had some heart issues and even hung out with the Birds of Prey.. How Dare You!!!
So Yeah I am a little upset about Beetle being killed, and the scene of how they did it...there aint no comming back from that...(maybe) I just hate it.
Posted by Stargazer on :
I did enjoy the issue...I mean it sets up all the new mini series... Dang DC...
Farewell Ted Kord...I will miss you...and the Bug.
Tis a sad day for me..excuse me...I need a tissue.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
Considering all they went through to show us that the scarab was back in play, I think Vee is right. We are either going to get a revived, mystically-enhanced Ted Kord or a new character linked to the scarab somehow.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I hope that's why the scarab was brought into play. The cynical part of me thinks it was the only way they could include "Day of Vengeance" in Ted's investigation - if he had some mystical tie. Still, it seemed awfully contrived and just shoe-horned in there. The main story is Checkmate, OMAC and Lord. Who knows how the Villains tie into it, but it all seems peripheral.
Despite how I feel about the decision to kill Beetle this way, It was certainly a well executed death (which is a lot more than can be said for how Sue Dibney or Hal Jordan got shafted). Not to bring up the whole misogyny thing again, but the difference is clear here -- Ted went out a hero. He knew what he was getting into, had a moment of glory and died proving his worth. Sue died a victim. Ted also got to narrate his own story - Sue's story was narrated by Ralph - she was seen only as what she meant to him, not as her own person. There was such a strong backlash to the misogyny issue at the time that I hope this death brings to relief some of the issues/ concerns that were mentioned during Sue's death. I don't mean it as an indictment or accusation, but I think it's something that should be noted.
Posted by Rurouni KJS on :
quote:Originally posted by RTVU2: [QUOTE]Originally posted by DrakeB3004: [qb] What are the other two? The Winged M and Progene Tech?
Not sure about the "M", but Progene Tech is the org. behind the San Diego disaster and the transformation of its survivors into waterbreathers, as has been detailed in AQUAMAN (a title you ought to be reading, I might add... ) for the past 15 issues.
Posted by Bevis on :
OK, the good points:
Some pretty nice art. Beetle did actually get to be pretty competant. Ummm...... that's it.
The bad points:
Apparently apart from Beetle (and Wonder Woman) every other hero in the DCU is either an idiot (Booster), snootily aloof (Superman) or just generally rude, unpleasant and not in the slightest bit likeable (Batman, Martian Manhunter, everyone else). Is this grim and gritty? Coz to me it just seemed like they decided everyone has to be a complete arse to be of any interest at all. Hell, even Oracle (after her first scene) came across as being a complete botch without actually appearing on the page to do anything.
Is the curse of Inifinty Inc. now being transferred to the Giffen era JLA? Countdown seems designed just to rip them down. First we had Sue, now Beetle and Booster and Max. If I were a Fuire fanboy I'd be getting seriously worried at this point.
The whole thing with Max was just.... well, stupid. I thought he was still an android as well, so how can he possibly bleed? And did they really feel that they needed to completely rewrite history again. OK so Max has always been a control freak but he 'kept the League ineffectual for years' because of some plot? Oh pur-leese. Just because those comics weren't tedious grim 'n' gritty rubbish doesn't mean that we suddenly need to exaplin that away with some deep, dark conspiracy that radically alters characters personas.
Ugh.
They said it wasn't just an advert for the upcoming mini series and 'Infinite Crisis'. They said it'd be a great self contained story. Well, it's not. Half the pages have sod all to do with the story in the comic (basically everythign leading into the minis), the other half are full of a story that isn't really exaplined and result in an ending that is clearly just the first part of a much bigger story. It's teh prelude, if tyou will, that should be a couple of pages long but that's been stretched over a super-sized issue.
Ach well, at least it only cost me 40p otherwise I'd really be pissed off. But I'm not exactly thinking any of the miniseries are going to be worth it if this is the quality we can expect from them. Nice art does not mean you can get away with a shitty story. I might check out the Villains one, simply because Gail Simone so very rarely puts a foot wrong, but I'm feeling very lukewarm about the DCU as a whole at the moment.
Posted by ferroboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Bevis: OK, the good points:
Some pretty nice art. Beetle did actually get to be pretty competant. Ummm...... that's it.
The bad points:
Apparently apart from Beetle (and Wonder Woman) every other hero in the DCU is either an idiot (Booster), snootily aloof (Superman) or just generally rude, unpleasant and not in the slightest bit likeable (Batman, Martian Manhunter, everyone else). Is this grim and gritty? Coz to me it just seemed like they decided everyone has to be a complete arse to be of any interest at all. Hell, even Oracle (after her first scene) came across as being a complete botch without actually appearing on the page to do anything.
I still think there was more going on here than we know. IMO, Max's powers explain a lot. Even if he couldn't completely mind control other heroes it doesn't mean he couldn't give them a subtle push to make them disregard Ted. And I don't think Booster was an idiot, since he really came through for his friend and was willing to risk his own life (when badly injured) for Ted.
quote:[wb]The whole thing with Max was just.... well, stupid. I thought he was still an android as well, so how can he possibly bleed?[/qb]
Could it be that he was a cyborg rather than an android? If he's a cyborg, he could easily have a human brain that can hemorrhage, which is where the nosebleed would come in.
Posted by doublechinner on :
It may be interesting to think about Beetle's and Booster's years (?) of tom-foolery as having consequences -- when you need to be taken seriously, you aren't. Everyone has written them off.
That said, I agree that most of the JLA looked like jerks. Perhaps Batman is excused because he's realizing that the League has mind-wiped him, too. I don't know what Supe's problem is. I like my Superman to have power and awe, but also compassion and empathy. J'onn's behavior is perhaps the worst, although he has been portrayed in the past as desperate to put the joke-JLA time behind him.
As hero deaths go, I thought this one was pretty good. I like the idea of a conspiracy to check the power of the heroes -- even if they stole it from the JLU cartoon. I hope this Crisis doesn't permanently remake the DCU as a dark and depressing place. The greatest power these heroes have is to inspire hope and optimism. I want to see some of that, too.
Posted by Reboot on :
If you can read the title Countdown to Infinite Crisis without laughing, you're a better person than I am. There's something faintly alarming about the fact that DC can honestly produce a book called Countdown to Infinite Crisis with a straight face. It's the sort of title so gloriously ridiculous that if you can't see why it's funny, there's something slightly suspect about your frame of reference.
Infinite Crisis is of course DC's major crossover event for the summer. We know it's a major event because it's so very big. This issue is 80 pages long. That's big. That's a big event. It has three writers. That's how damn big it is. No one writer can write a writing this big. It takes three. They take turns to hit the keys. Geoff Johns does consonants in the first half of the alphabet. Judd Winick does the rest. And Greg Rucka? Vowels. Only in this way can a story so big be written safely.
You know how big Infinite Crisis is? It's so damn big that it crosses over into four whole miniseries before it even gets started. Now that's big. And that's an event. A big event. Just wait till it actually gets started. The crossovers will be not just big, but huge. Possibly even large. There could be crossovers with JLA. Superman. Octobriana. Strictly Dance Fever On Three. Now that's large. And exciting. And big.
In this issue, the Blue Beetle gets killed. Perhaps future issues will feature equally earth-shattering events. Maybe Detective Chimp will sprain his ankle. This will be big, because it will be in a crossover.
Technically, taken completely on its own terms, this is not horrible. It's... okay. Nothing more. It overplays the idea that nobody takes Blue Beetle seriously. It tries to have it both ways - we're meant to take it that the Beetle is a genius scientist and career superhero, beset by genuine problems. But at the same time, we're meant to accept that none of the heroes take him seriously, except Wonder Woman, who is a girl and therefore nice.
It could of course be that a better explanation is coming in future chapters, but in this issue, the effect is to make DC's top heroes look like heartless bastards. The Blue Beetle's only sin is to be a C-list hero who's appeared in some comedy stories. He doesn't whine about his problems. He doesn't do anything annoying. He has plenty of evidence to back up what he's saying. And for his sins, Batman won't take his calls, and the Martian Manhunter actually kicks him out of the JLA base the moment he's out of his hospital bed. The story falls woefully short of justifying any of this, even on its own terms.
It also pisses on the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League run, by retconning Maxwell Lord into an evil manipulator who deliberately set out to keep the Justice League ineffectual. Of course, a large part of the original stories was Lord's redemption arc, which isn't consistent with this interpretation at all. This is pick-and-mix continuity, where a whole swathe of stories are invoked, an ill-fitting explanation is shoved on top of them, and we're expected to politely ignore the fact that it doesn't bloody fit the very stories which we've just been expressly directed to. It's one thing to quietly ignore earlier stories; it's quite another to deliberately refer to them for the sole purpose of contradicting them.
The most depressing thing about Countdown is that, like Identity Crisis before it, it seems to see the fact that earlier stories were fun and upbeat as something which has to be explained away. Loudly insisting that you're above childish things isn't a sign of maturity. It's a sign of adolescence. And trying to explain happy stories in a grim universe only succeeds in tearing out their hearts, not "making them work." It doesn't have to be done that way.
None of which matters, because Infinite Crisis is not a storytelling event, it's a marketing event. The events of this issue matter simply because DC has insisted very loudly that they matter. Because it's an event. And it's big. And it's important. And a towering sense of self-importance looms over every page.
I did not buy this comic book because I liked it. i did not buy it because I think it's good. I will be crystal clear -- it's not. I bought this comic book so I could have proof, so I could hold it up and point to it when I'm telling people where things went finally, irrevocably wrong. So I could scan panels and post them on my website, to illustrate the point in greater detail.
Where to begin? First of all, there is a contingent of DC fans who, by all rights, should be freaking furious (yes, I am one of them, as this even casts a pall on the second funniest comic book of all time -- I can't say what it is here, as it would spoil things). As much as Identity Crisis dirtied the whimsical and lighter days of the Silver Age, this comic book takes a classic run by some amazing creators and injects an ugly, sinister motive underneath it all. It then takes a character and completely twists him into...well, something that's not only wildly far afield of every panel of his entire life, but turns him into a cold blooded murderer (he makes the body the Bat holds possible), grafts Lex Luthor's motivations on him (for no apparent reason, and not done nearly as well as Brian Azzarello did in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel) and amps up his powers at the same time. It hints at another "Tower of Babel" style problem from the Bat (in the ad for The OMAC Project the solicitation text reads, "It was created to be Batman's greatest weapon. Now it's become the DC Universe's greatest nightmare"), which is just plain repetitive (as "War Games" trod the same path). The predictable "death of a second stringer" is almost foreseen on page one, as the doomed character behaves differently than he ever has (however, with the aforementioned character-turned-antagonist pulling strings, and yes I'm trying not to use spoilers, some of his reactions at least make sense, if he's indeed lost the phone number of every mask he's ever met). This is like fan fiction gone horribly awry, the worst of its excesses at play on one of the grandest stages of all, the actual DC Universe.
Almost every single page -- most of which were like ads for the minis or other projects, as if the whole issue was stitched together from those preview things they do in the back of issues sometimes -- had me thinking, "this is a bad idea"...well, except for Luthor, Talia, Dr. Psycho, Black Adam, Calculator and Deathstroke the Terminator having a business meeting. That's a fascinating page or two, if only for the sheer unpredictability of the personalities they've assembled (pun somewhat intended). But otherwise, this entire issue bothered me as someone who's been reading DC comics since the early '80s. In the same way that everybody is so careful not to "angst-up" Billy Batson, the characters mischaracterized here were not meant to be used this way, and these grimmer vestements do not suit them. I'm only hoping things don't get any worse.
[ April 03, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by profh0011 on :
You know, maybe my thought about possibly giving up ALL DC Comics from here on wasn't such a bad idea after all...
Posted by RTVU2 on :
quote:Originally posted by Rurouni KJS:
quote:Originally posted by RTVU2: [QUOTE]Originally posted by DrakeB3004: [qb] What are the other two? The Winged M and Progene Tech?
Not sure about the "M", but Progene Tech is the org. behind the San Diego disaster and the transformation of its survivors into waterbreathers, as has been detailed in AQUAMAN (a title you ought to be reading, I might add... ) for the past 15 issues.
Thanks!
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by ferroboy: Could it be that he was a cyborg rather than an android? If he's a cyborg, he could easily have a human brain that can hemorrhage, which is where the nosebleed would come in.
I believe this is the case, and that Max either refers to himself or is referred to as a cyborg in JLA:Classified #5.
Posted by Reboot on :
Maxwell Lord's original body is dead, victim to a BRAIN TUMOUR. He got transferred to Lord Havok's body in the post-Giffen JLA. No squelchy stuff in that head.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Damn... he went the "don't tick anyone off" route.
And, FTR, on the "Lil'Lobo" thing - the reason PAD made sure to kill Slobo off (effectively) in YJ55 was that he'd been told that Giffen's Lobo mini would open with Lobo eating Slobo if he didn't...
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: And, FTR, on the "Lil'Lobo" thing - the reason PAD made sure to kill Slobo off (effectively) in YJ55 was that he'd been told that Giffen's Lobo mini would open with Lobo eating Slobo if he didn't...
Now that I would have paid good money to see.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Well, if this is grim, gritty and changing the universe for all time, I guess what happened really happened.
But maybe all the heroes are being mind-controlled to be unpleasant and unhelpful to BB.
Maxwell Lord could bite the dust, I wouldn't complain about that death - even if he hadn't shot Blue Beetle.
Posted by ferroboy on :
I thought Slobo was pointless, but not deserving of being eaten by Lobo. I think it just shows that Giffen can be just as uncaring about the works of other writers as they can be about his work.
Posted by profh0011 on :
Yeah, don't forget what he did to Karate Kid. He announced his intentions to kill off KK as soon as he debuted on the LSH, and sure enough, before he left (the 1st time) he did as he promised.
Posted by MLLASH on :
While I think the Max Lord revealation is a betrayal and horrible on the par of Morrison's revealations about The Chief in DOOM PATROL, and while I am not at all pleased with Beetle's fate...
And while I think the DCU's treatment of Beetle (with the exception of Booster-- after an initial rough start-- and Wonder Woman) was reprehensible...
I didn't hate this comic.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised about Beetle's treatment... After all, the JLA are the guys who let their frequent comrade Adam Strange become a drunken wreck.
I definitely get the vibe that something's coming... something scary.
Yeah, the Giffster has pissed some folks off, that's for sure.
Posted by profh0011 on :
And here I was the other week telling someone how Keith Giffen ALWAYS does every series he works on completely wrong-- turning it upside-down and backwards-- yet with J.L.I., it really WORKED!
Of course, it could be said the LAST reboot (or should that be reboot-WITHIN-a reboot, a la ZERO HOUR) was a direct result of the out-of-control roller-coaster chain-of-events that became of Giffen's run as writer on the LSH...
Posted by RTVU2 on :
DC has just put up 6 page previews off all the minis on their website.
Slight spoliers....
Day of Judgement - you will never guess who the new Eclipso is...
Villains United - they have change some of the villians from the b&w preview from a couple months back, who is the last guy they show? i can't figure that out.
Rann/Thanger - a b&w preview and no dialogue but great art
OMAC - the return of Sasha Bordeaux-Batman's bodyguard froma few years back. I bet Boster will show up here...
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by RTVU2: Day of Judgement - you will never guess who the new Eclipso is...
I did, actually.
Not that I think it's a great idea, though.
(Thanks for the previews info, btw!)
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
Thanks for the reminder on those RTVU2. They had the links up last week but there was nothing attached yet.
I honestly didn't even consider that person would be the new Eclipso. Of course I never thought we'd see that person again so quickly. Guess I'm the kind of reader DC can sucker that way.
Posted by icefire on :
I was blown away by the identity of the new Eclipso and I love it!!!!!
Posted by RTVU2 on :
it sure surprised me. I wasn't even expecting that to happen so soon also LL.
I like what I see is happening in the DC Universe. I can't wait to see Infinte Crisis and see how this fits in along with what is happening in Titans, Batman and Hawkman.
Posted by matlock on :
Bah, I tried to look at the preview but my computer says the adobe file is damaged. Somebody want to spoil it for me or PM or something? I don't care enough about this hoo-ha to follow 89 minis and crossovers.
Ah, nevermind I found it on the DCMBs. Meh.
[ April 06, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: matlock ]
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
This is just an aside, but y'know the scene where the JLA et al are trying to find out who cleared out Beetle's warehouse? I don't know if they were intentionally mirroring "Identity Crisis", but again, how is it that with all those heroes, there was *no trace* or evidence?? I hope they don't just want us to assume Checkmate is that good (then again, they were all stumped by Jean Loring... maybe the Atom has joined Checkmate).
Btw, I thought it was interesting that Cyborg has an "ultraviolent" scanner...
[ April 07, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: DrakeB3004 ]
Posted by Kid Psychout on :
So how do you follow up raping and murdering half of the only stable marraige in comics?
you take an entire light hearted series and say that it was all a dark plot to keep them ineffectual by an actual member of the team. Piss on my memories here, why don't you.
great. can't wait for the cross-over where Captain Carrot catches mixamytosis, or the new revamp of the wombles that explains they're actually large mutated rats and has the government come in to gas their warrens.
As a story this was ok. Guessed Ted was gonna die on page one (though Max doesn't really seem like a good shot and mebbe just shot out part of his skull). As an event? i don't care. i will not be shelling out any cash to 'must see' this marketing event.
btw, as a plot device the files don't really make sense. Bats & Supes full identities on file? Luthor has access to them? didn't they wipe his mind before President Lex died?
Posted by profh0011 on :
*SPOILERS* > > > > > > > > > > Maxwell Lord as the master of Checkmate isn't that difficult to believe actually. Maxwell Lord was working for a supercomputer before to take over the world, had UN connections (very odd for a businessman), and effectively lied/cheated/manipulated/mind controlled the JLI from day one.
If we need a "fix" for Max, I'd say that he had his entire life fried by metahumans and is striking back. The 'real Max' arranged to have a clone and robot built that is over in FKATJL (Poor L-Ron and Maxbot are really too of a kind)
The actual Max then went onto to develop his metahuman powers as he developed an appalling self-loathing that he turned against the superhuman community he was originally just sent to bring under UN control. > > > > > > > >
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Charles Phipps: Maxwell Lord as the master of Checkmate isn't that difficult to believe actually. Maxwell Lord was working for a supercomputer before to take over the world, had UN connections (very odd for a businessman), and effectively lied/cheated/manipulated/mind controlled the JLI from day one.
AT Day 1. Go read JLI #12 (including the hefty mind-read J'Onn gives him at the end), #24 and JLAm #40, 41 and #60.
quote:Originally posted by Charles Phipps: If we need a "fix" for Max, I'd say that he had his entire life fried by metahumans and is striking back.
He went nuts when he moved to Lord Havok's body. He got better. This is a all-along-forever-and-ever retcon, not a "he's suddenly lost it" thing.
quote:Originally posted by Charles Phipps: The 'real Max' arranged to have a clone and robot built that is over in FKATJL (Poor L-Ron and Maxbot are really too of a kind) The actual Max then went onto to develop his metahuman powers as he developed an appalling self-loathing that he turned against the superhuman community he was originally just sent to bring under UN control.
He LOST those damn powers. THEN he lost the CAPACITY FOR them when he got moved to Lord Havok's body to save himself after he got a brain tumour. There was a corpse and funeral! Max's body has passed on! It is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! Its metabolical processes are of interest only to historians! It's hopped the twig! It's shuffled off this mortal coil! It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible! It is an EX-Maxwell Lord!
Posted by Charles Phipps on :
Obviously faked!
Also mind reading can be faked by checkmate's own telepaths.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
DC's new initiative is leaving me cold. It seems they're running roughshod over continuity and their own intergrity to bring us somewhere that will culminate in "Infinite Crisis" before bringing us through into the new DCU and all I can say is, it better be worth it, cuz honestly, I'm not enojying the ride. I know a lot of people are, and DC's making money so that's good, but to me DC's just taking itself way too seriously and it's becoming harder to reconcile these storylines with the fact that they're taking place in a universe of spandexed heroes.
Next they're going to tell us that Superman has been using "SuperSubliminal Hypnosis" to get people to buy that a pair of glasses can hide his identity and honestly, at this point, they *should*, because why overlook any fantastical or traditional comic book convention for the sake of "reality"?
Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
Loudly insisting that you're above childish things isn't a sign of maturity. It's a sign of adolescence. And trying to explain happy stories in a grim universe only succeeds in tearing out their hearts, not "making them work." It doesn't have to be done that way.
This quote is brilliant. And what's wrong with most comic books today. The incestuous rehashing and darkening of ALL comics (name one successful comic of the last 10 years that ISN'T grim'n'gritty) is the very thing that has driven younger fans away and made those of us who still read them afraid to share them with young people. Dark Knight was unbelievably original and good, but I don't think it means all comics have to be like it. You don't have to kill someone or completely retcon a character to make a dramatic story.
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