quote:Originally posted by Stealth: Okay, Lardy, maybe you can clarify something for me. Back in the day, I read a solicitation for the first Morrison/Millar issue of Swamp Thing, that said Chester the lovable hippie had turned into a right-wing cop. Did this actually happen, and were Morrison and Millar responsible?
It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.
It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by CJ Taylor: Swamp Thing has a reputation. I haven't read it, but it's always one of those books people talk about- mostly I'm assuming for Moore's work on it. There's always someone asking to get it out of the Vertigo-verse and back in DCU.
Any other runs reach that kind of status? You know- it's a must read, a high point for comics.
My 'must' list for complete runs (of 20+ issues): Sandman Preacher Fables Bone Strangers in Paradise Starman (Robinson/Harris et al) the original Elfquest (1977-1986) Mage (both series) Jon Sable (original series) 1-40 Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (20-63, I think) Grant Morrison's Animal Man (1-26) Zot 11-36 (now in one volume, conveniently enough) American Flagg! 1-26 The Question (80s O'Neil series)
and noteworthy, but understandibly not everyone's cup of tea: Cerebus Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol Omaha the Cat Dancer
[ January 23, 2009, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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Dalgoda (Jan Strnad, Ken Fujitake) Masked Man (BC Boyer) Crossfire (Mark Evanier/Dan Speigel)
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Agree about Dalgoda. Would add:
Tales From The Closet -- Ivan Velez
Open Season -- Jim Bricker
Night Life -- Derek McCulloch/Mike Bannon
(I was indy-published once or twice, but I guess that belongs on the "Know Your..." thread)
Oh, and I enjoyed Omaha for awhile, before it collapsed under the weight of wayyyyy to many soap constructs/cliches.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by rogue: It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).
I think a character like Chester was too good to be used as a sacrificial lamb just to make a satirical point.
And if Millar is even half the bastard I think he is behind that sh*t-eating grin, I'm sure he got a kick out of making Chester fans like myself squirm.
And Cobie, you still haven't answered my question.
posted
A huge black hole in my comics reading is and was the great indie comics of the '80s: Mage, Grendel, Elfquest, Jon Sable, Grimjack, Love and Rockets, American Flagg...you name a significant indie from that era, and I haven't read a lick of it. What can I say? I was a teenager and buying every Marvel and nearly every DC off the stands with every bit of allowance and lawn-mowing money I could scrape together! And I didn't have any cool comic-reading friends who could point me in the right direction.
In fact, to this day, I'm not a huge indie freak, but I'm more prone than ever to try out anything that has a good buzz following it. Honestly, I never would have tried Walking Dead, Umbrella Academy or lots of other indie-flavored books if not for buzz from posters here and some in-depth coverage from sites like CBR and Newsarama.
I really do wish I'd been in on the ground floor of some of those '80s indies though. Unfortunately, I doubt my CBS would have sold many of them to me before I was 18.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rouge: I think parts of the "Hotel: Shade" era were some of the best in the series, but "On the Road" is equally good. That's not to say there weren't some issues of the "American Scream" that knocked my socks off. It was a lot more spotty after the Hotel, and despite some good individual issues you could feel the momentum dissipating (Maybe I just missed KAthy too much).
It did lose something after Kathy, er, left the title. My memory's really fuzzy, though, since I haven't read them in about a decade--but didn't Kathy...return...toward the end of the series?
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: Shade's heyday was the Shade, Lenny and Kathy triumvirate era, especially with Bachalo art (Doran was good, too, epsecially the Hemmingway/Joyce 2-parter).
Like I said, Chris Bachalo's artwork was at its very best on Shade. I've yet to see him more inventive yet clear in his storytelling was on Shade.
After Bachalo left, we had Mark Buckingham on art and, I believe, Philip Bond towards the end. Neither was a slouch in the art department either. But Bachalo was the best.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I read a freiend's House of Secrets when it came out, and figured I'd wait for the TPB, if one ever came out. Only HOS I have is from one or more of the Vertigo compilation books (probably Winter's Edge #1, I'm guessing, where HOS was the framing story in which others were framed).
This was another Vertigo series that didn't hit its stride immediately. Once it focussed a little less on the main concept--people being judged and sentenced for the secrets they were keeping--and more on the characters, it really took off. The main concept was always entertaining, but learning more about the cast and their own secrets was the real joy of that series.
quote:I loved the concept of SMT, but Davis coming and going was a turn-off, as fill-in artists were not of caliber, as I recall.
Very quickly, the title settled into Davis taking every third arc off, if I remember correctly. Sometimes, the fill-in artists weren't up to his standards, but other times they were pretty terrific in their own right. No matter what, each arc kept its main artist from start to finish, so that was very nice. If Davis couldn't produce 12 issues a year, this was a good alternative.
Incidentally, unlike Shade or House of Secrets, Vertigo IS in the process of collecting that series in TBP in its entirety, two arcs per trade.
quote:Aside from Dark Detective and the odd special/mini, I've found Batman pretty much unreadable since Miller/Mazzucchelli Year One.
Does this mean you've read enough of what's been published since to have an opinion? Because there definitely have been some intermittent gems published since Miller. Have you read any of the Dixon/Graham or Moench/Jones issues I've referenced?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rogue: It was near the very end (and was just Millar). It was a satirical "What If" story, used to lampoon the rise of the Neo-Con mindset at the time. The story itself is actually well done and really funny (and sadly a little prophetic). It had all the more bite because it was Chester who made such a radical transformation.
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: It was in direct response the the election of 1994. Curt Swan art, Millar writing very tongue and cheek) perhaps the only thing by him I've enjoyed). Definitely worth seeking out for its own sake, even if one cares nothing for Swamp Thing (or Chester).
I think a character like Chester was too good to be used as a sacrificial lamb just to make a satirical point.
And if Millar is even half the bastard I think he is behind that sh*t-eating grin, I'm sure he got a kick out of making Chester fans like myself squirm.
Like rouge said, Stealth, it was a "What If?"-type story, not a reboot or retcon or anything. His Swamp Thing was waaaay before Millar grew his Big Fat Ego! This swears Lardy!
BTW, I picked up all three issues of the Diggle Thunderbolts (and the new issue of Mighty Avengers) up from my CBS today, largely because you've put your Stealth Stamp of Approval so profoundly on it--hope it lives up to your hype!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Stealth, I honestly think Millar seems like a pretty likeable guy but there are some annoying things about him. One, he obviously promotes his material in a way that can only be described as "Stan Lee meets PT Barnum". Calling Wanted "The Watchman of Supervillains" and saying his comics "are the most important comics of the year" are way over the top and ridiculous. But in a way, perhaps that works? I mean, people do pick his comics up. He also obviously has a way to manipulate the internet extremely well--playing on people's fears, curiousities, sense of outrage and willingness to check out things simply for the sake of understanding 'why there's such a controversy about Ultimate #6 on Newsarama'. So yes, I find all of those qualities annoying . But I think he's an asshole or a jerk or anything. I'm of the opinion that the internet deserves 95% of the beating it gets from DC and Marvel and their creators.
Millar obviously loves comic books and especially loves superheroes. And many of his comics, like Ultimate Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, were an obvious attempt to reaffirm that superheroes don't need to apologize for their corniness or 'kids toy' status. He just goes about it in the exact opposite way Grant Morrison does.
Another Millar trait is that he obviously will use sensationalism in his stories when it fits his agenda. But, so did Peter David in the 90's and so did a host of other writers--Millar just does it to the Nth degree. I'm not saying its right--I was furiously about Ultimate Hank Pym and Ultimate Cap for so long that I basically posted "I hate Mark Millar" a bunch of times about five or so years ago. But Millar was calculating there too--he made it the ultimate versions of those characters. And the after effect? Millar is more high profile than ever, benefitting hugely, and the Ultimate Avengers are basically on a major decline down the tube since Millar's exit.
There's also a problem that isn't directly Millar or Bendis' fault. Because those two writers are seen by Marvel execs as being so important, there seems to be a top-down approach at Marvel to reuse and dig into those two creators subplots, ideas and niches. So, in the case of Civil War, Millar never actually makes Reed Richards or Tony Stark look like facists or assholes. It simply was not by him. I've gone and researched/checked it specifically to see (as this was when I started to really take a second look at Millar). Most of that stuff came from other writers: JMS being a big one, but several more, and even Bendis himself. JMS has said that was mainly directed by editorial. Therefore, one can make this assumption: Mark Millar proposes an idea and Marvel editorial misunderstands it and creates a top-down directive to JMS to alter Reed and Tony in Spider-Man and FF own comics. Yet, Millar gets the blame. I really think that's unfair. Obviously, this could mean little to you and is way off your point, but I wanted to post it anyway
Soooooo...I'm hoping one day Millar writes a story you like and you give him a second chance. I eventually came around. I'm not saying I like 100% of his work, but some of it I think is beyond good and actually quite excellent. But, as always, I always respect and am fascinated by your opinions
Millar's most annoying quality, BTW, is his willingness to talk about how much money he makes in interviews. Whether true or not, it permeates the assumption that Millar is really only out there working for the money, sensationalizing his work to get higher sales and creating over the top indie projects for movie deals. I certainly hope that is not the case.
His best quality seems to be that he seems like a cool guy to have a pint with and discuss how much Galactus could kick Thanos' ass.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by LardLad: A huge black hole in my comics reading is and was the great indie comics of the '80s: Mage, Grendel, Elfquest, Jon Sable, Grimjack, Love and Rockets, American Flagg...you name a significant indie from that era, and I haven't read a lick of it. What can I say? I was a teenager and buying every Marvel and nearly every DC off the stands with every bit of allowance and lawn-mowing money I could scrape together! And I didn't have any cool comic-reading friends who could point me in the right direction.
In fact, to this day, I'm not a huge indie freak, but I'm more prone than ever to try out anything that has a good buzz following it. Honestly, I never would have tried Walking Dead, Umbrella Academy or lots of other indie-flavored books if not for buzz from posters here and some in-depth coverage from sites like CBR and Newsarama.
I really do wish I'd been in on the ground floor of some of those '80s indies though. Unfortunately, I doubt my CBS would have sold many of them to me before I was 18.
I'm pretty much the same. Obviously I couldn't read in the early 80's, being 3 years old and stuff, but I'd like to catch up on some of these. I've read almost all of the DC and Marvel stories of that period. I believe my father has American Flagg! and some others, but for the most part I still need to find Mage, Love and Rockets and several others. I also have never read a Grendel story outside of the crossover with Batman and would love to immerse myself in that universe (like Hellboy and like I'm currently trying with Madman).
Speaking of Madman, I recently bought several of his earliest appearances via trades from a certain Legion Worlder who is renowned for his awesomeness and considered by me to be the poster whose opinion on the last three years of Legion most resemble my own. I can't wait to dig in! (Here's a hint--his moniker is that of the coolest new character in 5YL Legion, and I think he should be the next LMB leader).
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.
Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.
quote:Originally posted by Stealth: Lardy, I very much look forward to finding out what you think of those books I recommended. And if you don't like Diggle's Thunderbolts, I'll refund you the $9.
You'll have to wait a coupla weeks for my response, though. I just got my In-Stock Trades order and will be occupied with those for a while. After that, I'm about two weeks or so behind in my comics reading. But I promise I'll letcha know what I think!
quote:Cobie, thanks a lot for the detailed answer regarding Millar. Truth is, I gave Millar a fair chance with his first few issues of FF, and I found it to be like Busiek's Avengers: dull, derivative, overly reverent -- not to mention a waste of Bryan Hitch's considerable artistic talent. But who knows? Maybe one day, when he's no longer King of the Mountain (we know that day is coming), and he actually has to prove himself a worthy writer, he might pleasantly surprise me.
Like I said, if you get the inclination, track down his run on Swamp Thing (140-171). In my opinion its the best writing he's ever done by a mile! If you're leary of checking out a whole run, just try #152. If you don't like it, I'll refund ya what ya spent on it!
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
And Cobester...just to clarify, I'd easily put the entirety of Shade and SMT among my Top Ten favorite comic book runs of all time! ( sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I'll agree with Mage and Fables. Grendel should be noted, as we are in this rush to spotlight villains (Thunderbolts, Dark Avengeers, Secret Six.) As for the rest, I'm working on reading them- Starman and SMT are on the top of the list.
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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. But I think he's an asshole or a jerk or anything. I'm of the opinion that the internet deserves 95% of the beating it gets from DC and Marvel and their creators.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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sounds like I've gotta nother list to compile soon....)
