posted
The problem is by starting over with all new #1's and an entire new continuity (aka a "hard reboot"), a huge portion of the fans would stop collecting comics.
I know I'd see it as a jumping off point for several DC titles.
I think a softer, more subtle approach is needed. There's no need to worry about 'fixing' continuity. Internally, DC's editors should say "from this point, March 1, 2009, we will no longer worry about the huge mess of continuity; we will move forward with the DC universe as it is now, and stop screwing it up. Within a few years, we can release a few specials addressing all the problems--with an index of the exact chronology." And then make no apologies for it, give no interviews on it, and certainly make no crossover events hinge on it.
From DC's perspective, I think it would be a smart move for a long term profits without jeoperdizing short term profits, which is obviously what they are interested most nowadays. And it would benefit fans in the longterm too without alienating current fans right now.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Thats basically what the cosmic re-set button is.
Every book and title will, at that point, move forward. No more "mining" the past by just retelling stories already told, with one or two minor changes. Ya just go with whats there.
Each book would have a starting point. The Concave rebound was simply a device. It would not be the story itself, as the story...would be almost a non story.
The point would be to provide a demarcation line, at which point the continuity bug would be off the radar for a mandatory time, say three or five years.
The entire point would be to tell new stories. If you want people to know the origin of Batman, then give a one paragraph summary, like they used to do, and then TELL A NEW STORY.
From what i understand the last two years of batman have been about the past. Seven issues of GL were just about his origin...again...
DC is retelling the same stories over and over with only minor variations. They aren't really doing anything new lately.
Thats what the reset button is for. Pickapoint, and move forward from there.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: The problem is by starting over with all new #1's and an entire new continuity (aka a "hard reboot"), a huge portion of the fans would stop collecting comics.
I know I'd see it as a jumping off point for several DC titles.
I'd see it as a jumping on point. Anyway...
quote:I think a softer, more subtle approach is needed. There's no need to worry about 'fixing' continuity. Internally, DC's editors should say "from this point, March 1, 2009, we will no longer worry about the huge mess of continuity; we will move forward with the DC universe as it is now, and stop screwing it up.
My point isn't to do something "soft" and unnoticed. I'm talking creating a sense of hard continuity, like most popular TV shows these days have. I want to restore the ability old Legion fans reminisce about: collecting back issues and knowing exactly how they fit in. The only problem is, how do you convince non-comic readers that comics aren't so confusing anymore?
quote:Within a few years, we can release a few specials addressing all the problems--with an index of the exact chronology." And then make no apologies for it, give no interviews on it, and certainly make no crossover events hinge on it.
My whole point is to break DC's current mindset by eliminating the need to ever retroactively explain history. I want to market to fans in general, not just DC Comics fans. To people who are attracted to any large fictional universe, not just the one they know.
quote:From DC's perspective, I think it would be a smart move for a long term profits without jeoperdizing short term profits, which is obviously what they are interested most nowadays. And it would benefit fans in the longterm too without alienating current fans right now.
That's one thing I can't solve. DC currently has an unpleasable fanbase. No insult to anyone in particular; it's a collective effect. I can't see any way to market to them that will be good for the industry in the long term.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Thats just it. We are not unpleasable. We are frustrated, and the product we have been receiving is substandard, but that is fixable.
To the readers under thirty that don't want to lose their favorite characters, the simple solution is to introduce the characters into the book after the reset.
Its not hard. There is no perfect solution, but there is a workable solution. And considering the mess that DC editorial has made, a workable solution is the best that we can hope for.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: And when comic book fans and the internet clamor for complicated continuity explanations, then have the writer and artist of the moment do a story, make it one giant sized annual and price it to the extreme, like $10.00 an issue, so those fans are forced to subsidize the rest of DC's line trying to move past those long-standing problems.
I love this idea! The fans who are willing to fork over the money can have their cake and eat it, too, while the rest of us move on to . . . steak (and potatoes and veggies and fruit . . . ), and then come back for the cake when and if we're ready.
It does seem that DC no longer tells "stories" --e.g., narratives with beginning, middle, and end. People tend to forget that continuity was meant to enhance the reading of a particular story, not take the place of it. Continuity helped broaded and deepen the DCU and MU, but there had to be some other kind of content to build and sustain readership in the first place. Spider-Man isn't popular because he re-lives his origin ten times a year. He's popular because he walks on walls, shoots webs, and strives to be a hero in spite of enormous odds. He's someone with whom average kids of all ages can identify because he's "cool," not because he has to re-live or re-invent the worst tragedy of his life.
DC--from what little I have been able to stomach reading in the last few years--seems mired in tragedy these days. There is no joy in being a hero when you're constantly saving the uni- or muliti-verse from one disaster after another.
Re-set button? I don't know if that would make a difference. Until DC starts telling stories again, a re-set button could become yet another futile "quick fix" for problems they don't truly want to fix.
-------------------- The Semi-Great Gildersleeve - writing, super-heroes, and this 'n' that
From: The Stasis Zone | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Continuity hasn't been around as long as comic books have. That's something used to tell extended narratives, prolong the life of a story, sort of.
The rest button is suggested to fix continuity.
If we jettison continuity, then we don't even need a reset button. Rather than hard or soft reboot, when a new creative team takes on a title, it's understood backstory is up for grabs. A new team isn't required to use any previous stories, much like comics were originally written.
You can't get more new reader friendly than that. As for long time readers, the over 35 crowd will relate to a time when there wasn't an established continuity.
I'm saying as long as writer A is on the book, readers get his/her interpretation. After that, let the new wrtier sink or swim on his/her own stories. Can you iimagine someone trying to adhere to the mess that is Hawkman? Geoff Johns simply side stepped the issue and faves raved about his work. Let's give other writers teh same leeway.
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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Batman Issue #921- Quick recap of Batmans origin in a paragraph on the splash page...then...Story. Not origin story, not another story about his first year, not a rehash of any kind. Writer X takes over and starts telling stories about batman NOW!
Reset button punched- Legion of Super heros #1 part 5: Writer gives us a paragraph recap of the origin of the legion on the splash page, then, we get a new legion story with the fatal Five, or Mordru, or who ever, but, its not another origin story, it isn't a story telling how the earthwar saga fit into blank period of blank, it is a new complete and wholly stand on its own legion story.
The Wave that i talked about is simply the device to give us a demarcation line. Thats all it has to be. Don't need a megahugeuniversechanging event. Just a...wave.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
posted
One little point - One Year Later was meant to do that for DC (i.e., give a demarcation point where everyone started from the same [lack of] knowledge regarding the status quo, without crossovering).
Once the brief, initial spike was over, it completely tanked DC sales.
posted
Reading through this I started to wonder how much of the original Crisis was done for the benefit of DCs acquisition of other comic properties? They bought up the Charlton character rights, the Fawcett characters and it seems to me there was another company but for the life of me I can't think who it was right now.
Rather than just go forward from where they were DC rebooted them and effectively made most of them brand new characters. Why bother with the rights if that's what they were going to do?
I really loved the old Captain Atom. He was my favorite Charlton character. Steve Ditko's Blue Beetle reboot was awesome but (I seem to be one of the few) as a kid I really loved the old commie busting super powered Blue Beetle.
Ok back at DC there were some complications with a new JSA series but All Stars was doing a decent job of explaining that Superman wasn't around for WW2. (whatever happened to Arn Munroe anyway?) The Doom Patrol was dead but when does that matter in the long run for comic books?
It seems like that rather than use what they'd paid for DC rewrote those characters as National Periodicals properties and devalued their investment.
Sometimes I just don't get these corporate people.
From: Smallville Sector : Greater Metropolis | Registered: Jun 2004
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Arm Fall Off Boy
Now starring in his own DC Comic, September 2011!
posted
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: But if you reset 25 years, then you piss off everyone under the age of thirty.
So?
Just kidding Reboot. It would be interesting to know what percentage of fans are over 30. Given the price of comic books these days, I would think it's certainly not those who are teenagers or in their early 20's who are the majority forking out the dough. To all you on this website who that DOES apply to, we all hate you, GO AWAY. Ok, not really. I applaud your success.
No matter what age group we belong to, I think the books help us to stay young. I know I use the books I read as escapism, or light entertainment. I did not like it when comic books started trying to be more realistic-with the increased profanity, violence, disasters-like one of the many times a city was destroyed, such as Gotham being taken over by the criminals. De-pressing. Not my preference. I prefer to dwell on the good things of the world, and comics are one of those things.
When did everyone suddenly decide continuiy was so important? and who decided it? I'm sure the first crisis was designed not for us, but for the writers. It was time to shake up the world of Superman, bcause his sales were slipping. Suddenly he was less powerful and more human, and God forbid he have super-powered friends from the future. "We gotta clean this up, or someone might associate Superman with the Legion and expect him to visit." And, we don't want to confuse the writers by using pre-Byrne with post-Byrne so let's clean this up a bit." Then somewhere along the way, someone realized there was too much of a heritage to let go of--why do you think the JSA is still around? They should be in their 90's and fighting incontinence, not Gog. But they are the best of heroes and we like that, so they were another retconned/revised group, and it all began to unravel. Confused? Yeah, me too, and I don't expect it o end anytime soon. I think the reset button has been pushed so many times it's stuck.
-------------------- Long Live all them Legions!
From: North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Cobalt Kid wrote: "But honestly, the less stories 'about continuity' the better. Continuity growing naturally from a series of stories is a welcome literary tradition. But when continuity is the main focus of an entire story, it has almost always created problems."
cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
He Who Wanders [snip]:
quote:...I did not mean to imply that complexity and self-containment were at all exclusive. They are not...
Oh, I didn't think that's what you were saying. Not at all.
quote:...However, it's disingenuous for a company to create complexity in its back stories and settings (e.g., Earth 1, 2, etc.), and then complain that things have to be "simplified" for fans to follow them...
Yeah, I agree with this and pretty much the rest of your comments here. Well, as much as I can given how out of touch I've been with both DC and Marvel for the past two decades.
I just wish stories, no matter what kind, were permitted to stand or fall on their own merits;Rather than being expected to serve as a hook into other titles. It just seems like a problematic way to market. Why neither company seems interested in growing its market rather than continually strip-mining the readership it already has... [sigh] I didn't get it twenty years ago and I still don't.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: I just wish stories, no matter what kind, were permitted to stand or fall on their own merits;Rather than being expected to serve as a hook into other titles. It just seems like a problematic way to market. Why neither company seems interested in growing its market rather than continually strip-mining the readership it already has... [sigh] I didn't get it twenty years ago and I still don't.
That's what I meant by rebooting. It serves no use unless accompanied by renewed marketing to people under 30. That's what I'm guessing DC planned for the first Crisis: to follow up by marketing to a different (and wider) demographic. Rather than beating Marvel at their own game, to rewrite the rules.
quote:Originally posted by CJ Taylor: If we jettison continuity, then we don't even need a reset button. Rather than hard or soft reboot, when a new creative team takes on a title, it's understood backstory is up for grabs. A new team isn't required to use any previous stories, much like comics were originally written.
You can't get more new reader friendly than that. As for long time readers, the over 35 crowd will relate to a time when there wasn't an established continuity.
I doubt that. It seems to me that the older fans get, the more they care about continuity. You'd have to go back to the Golden Age (I'm talking the 1940s, not 12) to really get that lack of continuity. And, as I noted, it seems the younger generation wants continuity, something to reward their continued investment. However, in almost everything other than American superhero comics, it's easier to get in on the ground floor of that continuity.
-------------------- Tom Strong, on nostalgia: "I suppose it's a ready substitute for genuine feeling." - Tom Strong #6, Alan Moore
From: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: May 2008
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And, we don't want to confuse the writers by using pre-Byrne with post-Byrne so let's clean this up a bit." Then somewhere along the way, someone realized there was too much of a heritage to let go of--why do you think the JSA is still around? They should be in their 90's and fighting incontinence, not Gog. But they are the best of heroes and we like that, so they were another retconned/revised group, and it all began to unravel.
