posted
Here's a little article I wrote on Mary Sues a few years back, Matlock.
As for Nightwing, as a new Birds of Prey fan, I was considering whether or not I should pick up Nightwing too. After reading all this, I'll definitely be passing it by.
-------------------- arachne3003.deviantart.com Current Obsession: Birds of Prey/Secret Six
From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: Is Devin taking a hatred of men (or a certain man) out on Dick?
I don't think so.
She seems to honestly believe that the best way to character growth is by putting that character through hell.
I don't understand how a character being treated so totally 'out of character' with his established traits being ignored can be called character growth. I do understand how heaping misery on top of misery can build character but she isn't writing him as Dick to begin with.
Is there even a glimmer of light for this Nightwing? Or does it just keep getting piled higher?
From: Utah | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Lightning Lad: I don't understand how a character being treated so totally 'out of character' with his established traits being ignored can be called character growth. I do understand how heaping misery on top of misery can build character but she isn't writing him as Dick to begin with.
Is there even a glimmer of light for this Nightwing? Or does it just keep getting piled higher?
It's hard to say. Normally #100 would seem like a perfect issue to resolve all this but who knows? The War Games crossover may have extended the misery.
And I agree with you: The only way she could get Dick into this position to begin with is to ignore the character as he's been established. If anything, I suspect the "character growth" will put him right back where he already had been.
posted
I'm sorry to get a bit off topic, but are there any other "Mary Sue's" that you guys can think of off the top of your heads? I'm curious, I've never heard the term before until this thread.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think that's because the usually ARE a fanfic device, Des, and usually don't end up in an "official" story...
The editor on Nightwing really gave Devin too much freedom with all this. They BOTH need to go.
From: Up a Gumtree | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I've never heard the term either, but I've always thought that Denny O'Neil turned Green Arrow into his "Mary Sue" during his much heralded "Hard Traveling Heroes" story arc with Green Lantern.
From: New York, NY | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I think GA was certainly O'Neil's mouthpiece, but I'm not sure he ever took the character all the way into Mary Sue territory. GA still had his share of flaws.
That was quite a nice article on the subject, Arachne.
posted
well, the name for a male "Mary Sue" is "Wesley Crusher", sooo......
[ August 01, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Flannel Lass ]
From: the palace garden of the Lord of the Red Lands. | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Here's the million dollar question: how would you salvage this series? Personally, I would be quite baffled as to how to restore Nightwing.
I did read a Nightwing TPB, one of the early ones, and was quite surprised to see he'd been turned into a cop - but thought it provided a great platform for storytelling. If you wanted to put a character through hell, it seems that having someone as exceptional as Dick Grayson have to fit in with "ordinary" people - and likely some corrupt and incompetent members of the force - would provide plenty of opportunity.
Not to mention that, distance himself as he will, he will always be in the shadow of that brilliant, driven weirdo who trained him. Any of his interactions with other superheroes would always have this theme in the background, and I would think that's something of a hell to live with.
This is, after all, the man that created the character that we all loved enough to call for his own book out of titans. I don't think any other character, not even wally, got that call in the sheer numbers that Dick did.
I'm sure that if Devin is gone, Shreik will put his fav Winnick on it. That guarantees that i wont be back. He has already cost me GA, Outsiders, and now Bats. But, im not the editor.
If not Marv, then i would put another writer that has a good grasp of the elements of storytelling. It seems that a lot of writers these days can't tell a good, coherent, ingrossing without being gross story from the beginning of the arc to the end.
What we don't need is the 73rd rehashing of Dick Battling to get out from under Bruce's shadow. He simply needs to BE it. The rest will follow.
Every person has their ideas about what to do with a character. I certainly have mine. But the dif is in the execution. And unfortunately, if the book doesn't pick up, i think execution is the right word for it.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
posted
I would get rid of Tarantula by having Dick come to his senses and arrest her for murder. She could come back later as a great nemesis for him. Then I would bring Steph in as a partner for him. She's already left the roll of Spoiler behind, and now Robin as well. She could become the new Flamebird to reboot that classic Silver Age team. That is, of course, assuming that Tim is slated to return to his Robin identity. If not, I would much prefer to see him become Dick's partner. They already have a great relationship and would work extremely well together.
-------------------- "Hey Jim! Get Mon out of the Zone!! And...when do we get Condo back?"
From: Paragon City on patrol | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I agree about Dick arresting Tarrantula for murder, that needs to be the first step.
I'd also bring back the cop aspect of the series, which was a really cool element that Dixon introduced, although Devin has destroyed by Amy finding out he's Nightwing and kicking him off the force.
Since most of his supporting cast is dead, I'd bring Clancy back in (she had a brief cameo recently), and introduce a few others.
I totally agree with Rick: Dick is OUT of Bruce's shadow. It should be over and done with. I'm tired of reading about it.
And now Dick needs new threats, since Blockbuster is dead and Devin pretty much made most of his enemies fifth stringers.
And all this is only how to start getting the series to what it was. It needs good art, good storytelling and a new 'feel' to it to wash the bad taste from everyone's mouth.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I keep thinking that there must be some plot twist ahead that will at least partly redeem the last few issues.
I thought Devin Grayson had a good handle on Nightwing when she first started writing the title. I liked the new cop she introduced... and I liked her take on the female chief.
Then she essentially removed them all from the regular cast?! Huh?
And blew up HAILEY'S CIRCUS! I hate that even more than the rape-- creepy as that is.
It's all supposed to come to a head by issue 100, but is there going to be anything left to read in this series besides an emasculated lead character?
I will say that if Tarantula becomes an antagonist for Dick-- these events *would* make for a compelling 'backdrop'. I think she'll probably take Huntress' and Spoiler's place as the 'outcast female' apparently now requisite for the ever-growing 'Bat family'. I hope I'm wrong-- much as I don't want to see the Tarantula name/legacy 'tarnished', effective villainesses are few and far between.
She could be one.
But it'll have to start with Dick coming out of his fog and arresting her. I almost want to see him beat the tar out of her, but that'd just reflect badly on him.
Followed by the inevitable rebuilding period...
... Hailey's will be sent out on the road again, Dick'll build a new apartment building, his relationship with the Bludhaven Police Department will change...
... maybe Blockbuster will 'come back' from the dead. Y'know... he would've been a good candidate as a past recipient of the 'Zatanna Special' introduced in IDENTITY CRISIS.
I like enough about all the background stuff that I'll keep reading... though I admit it's essentially 'rubbernecking'. I wonder how the heck things are gonna turn out for Dick.
posted
But hasn't Devin already proved she doesnt give a crap about established characterisation with her jaw-droppingly bad turn on Titans? What she did with Starfire was bad enough.
She's also said in numerous interviews (at the time and before) that she identifies with Dick Grayson (isn't her writing name a pseudonym?) So whatever's going on in her personal life is presumably right down the dumper.
It's a miracle she's still got a job, it all sounds so desperate and try hard!
(On a more practical level though, how did the rape happen then? Like. I mean. Y'know... if he didn't want to etc...)
-------------------- "What a total entropic mess! Let me at it!"
From: London, England | Registered: Oct 2003
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