posted
I've loved JSA almost all the way through but it hasn't always been perfect. I do think the book was stronger on a monthly basis when Goyer was co-writing but the quality has remained relatively strong. I think since the current relaunch though, its floundered quite a bit. Particularly this last storyarc.
I thought what Geoff Johns did with Hawkman was nothing short of extraordinary, and it makes me scratch my head to wonder why DC would try to screw that up again.
For whatever reason, I like most versions of Hawkman and Hawkgirl (or Hawkwoman). I also like the complexity of their history.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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I loved the Tim Truman mini, but would rather have seen that retconned in rather than reintro the Hawks as if they were just coming to Earth. If the ongoing series absolutely had to that, I'd have rather seen either extended flashbacks, or just plain set in the DCU of a few years beforehand.
As it was, both story and art of the ongoing left me cold; I did not care when they killed of Shayera, and the Zero Hour 'merged' Hawkman struck me as particularly lame. Only in recent years has Johns made it work (sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).
If there had to be a third incarnation, I like the idea of Kendra better than a revamped Shayera. If I were re-introing Hawkman in the immediate post-Crisis era, I'd find a way to make continuity between 2 or three eras of Hawks without having to retread old tires, so to speak.
I never liked Hector Hall very much, especially not as Dr. Fate. A second-rate character, in my opinion, who should stay dead.
I've laways loved JSA, but not always what's been done with it. I found the previous JSA series rather lukewarm (I've only read the 1st 2 trades plus #51, the Legion cameo), and it seemed like Just Another SH Book rather than THE Classic Team of All Time.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Kent, that's a fairly small sampling of JSA reading to make that judgement, I think, but I can respect that. I'm guessing that maybe part of your problem with JSA is it's NOT the classic lineup. Most original JSAers are dead. Do you think that played into it at all for you?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: (sort of like the Black Canary mother/daughter works better if one ignores the original JLA story that intro'd it).
Well, that was completely zapped post-Crisis, wasn't it? (in favour of the younger BC having been a separate character all along)
-------------------- My views are my own and do not reflect those of everyone else... and I wouldn't have it any other way.
posted
I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.
-------------------- The only character in all of literature who has been described as "badnass" while using the phrase "vile miscreant."
From: The Pyngwyn Colonies of Planet Hyustyn | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say. Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I expect another retcon soon though. The JSA are simply getting too far removed from the current generation to maintain the "Sons and Daughters" aspect of the current heroes, even with the Krakul explanation.
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rockhopper Lad: I think Black Canary wins the award for character whose origin was most helped by a post-Crisis retcon.
She probably also got a boost from being retconned in as a JLoA founder, too.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Yeah, I agree with that. Also the award for 'least talked about Crisis retcon' too, I'd say.
I think that's a combination of "no-one liked the original retcon" (that turned BC into her own daughter), JLA wasn't selling very much at the time of the original retcon, and it was done in Secret Origins, IIRC, which wasn't a particularly high-profile series itself. I suspect a lot of people were fooled into thinking that the BC in the JLA had always been a separate character to the JSA BC; and that those who knew otherwise didn't notice ANY of the retcons.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Especially because the original suddely ended up alive again!
...for about five minutes [Although she appeared beside her daughter in past-set series like JLA:Y1 and JLA Incarnations. Wasn't it James Robinson who tried to retcon her name to "Diana", to distinguish her from the younger "Dinah", or was that just the same sort of carelessness that led to him writing a whole Times Past issue involving "Allen Scott"?]
Incidentally, didn't someone involved say that, if the retcon had been cemented-in in time, she would have been sent into Limbo with most of the JSA shortly after the Crisis?
posted
You know, about the age thing, I think it's time for a "middle" generation to be retconned into the timeline.
I mean, only my grandfather on my mom's side (since passed) served in WWII, the rest of my grandparents were all under 18 by the time the war ended. We are getting to the point where the fourth generation from then will be adults.
I certainly don't want WWII removed from the JSA's story, but I think instead of Allan Scott being the dad of Jade and Obsidian he should be the grandfather (well, Jade is dead but Obie isn't that old, not nearly as old as Superman and them) so he is from a "younger" generation.
But if you quietly slipped that extra generation in there I don't think it will be that big of a deal, just don't make any of this new "middle" generation (for lack of a better term) a villain or a secret uber powerful hero. They need to be slipped in quietly than mostly ignored except for the sweet cameo here and there because the gap is getting a bit much for suspension of belief.
-------------------- Long Live the Legion!
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
After years of discussing it and thinking about it (usually on LW), I think right now I'd be fully in support of something to further distance the Golden Age/JSA (still firmly planted in WWII) from modern times.
I thought the Justice Experience was a great step in that direction. I also thought the idea that certain individuals stayed within their own eras too worked well: Challengers of the Unknown - 1957-1968 (then travel forward in time) Blackhawks - 1940 - all the way up through the 1960's Congo Bill - 1943-1950's, becomes Congorilla in 1959, essentially immortal thereafter.
Meanwhile, certain Golden Agers, like Plastic Man, are naturally immortal.
Now that would be a cool weekly series. Explaining the history of the DCU while applying a 'moving timeline' to the modern era with only the vaguest connections but still keeping a relevant 'passing of the torch'. Yet with a good story not mired in useless minutiae of continuity
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
The JSAers are the parents of the Infinity generation. Most of them were men. And they had their aging slowed. That I get.
But the wives of the JSAers, the mothers of the Infinitors, must have been in their 40's & 50's to give birth to children younger than me. Ugh!
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Cobie, a weekly series, looking at the different eras of the DCU and it's mystery men is a great idea. Much like 52, it'll have 4-5 running stories, each focused on a different time, with a different lead. It'd be a great way to showcase those timely characters, maybe even build some interest in them.
1) Cinnamon and Nighthawk cleaning up crime in the Old West. GrayPal would write it, Cooke can draw it.
2) Dr. Fate and Speed Saunders explore the dawn of the 20th century.
3) The Blackhawks & Sgt Rock fighting the Nazi scum in Europe. Chuck Dixon writes it and Joe Bennet makes it look pretty.
4) The Challengers of the Unknown explore a nuclear new world. Mark Waid tells us how it was while Mark Pajarillo shows us.
You know the Hawks, Will Magnus, Niles Caulder, and such tangent characters would occasionally pop up to give the story some breadth and us fans moments to geek out over.
From: Denver, CO | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I'm pretty sure the fandom hounds would be unleashed if a middle generation were ret-conned in. The Justice Experience was a good idea, but they weren't related to anyone. I'd have to say I'd be against this retcon because DC is already drowning in a 50-ft deep retcon pool with like only one arm floatie keeping it above water!
Yeah, I often get those wtf moments when I realize the JSAers kids are pretty much all younger than ME!!! As I see it there are two non-"lost generation" solutions:
1) Portray the JSA's kids as being in their early '40s or so.
or
2) Show a lost "casebook" story (a softer ret-con) which shows how at some point a magic spell or something was put on the classic JSAers that caused both them AND any children they would have to age at a slower rate than the rest of humanity. They aren't immortal or anything, but perhaps their expected lifespan would be maybe 50 years longer than everyone else.
Neither is a perfect solution, but I think they're less intrusive solutions than ret-conning in another generation of characters.
posted
I thought about this long and hard over the Summer, when I was planning my excel spreadsheet multi-tab document “How to Fix the DC Universe?”, which was when I was at my angriest towards the company. Yes, I really did this Then I started to have fun with it and was wondering how to kind of explain away some of this stuff without making it too messy. Honestly, I don’t think that can be done. But what I was considering:
Golden Age / WWII era – Justice Society, 7 Soldiers, Freedom Fighters, etc. – become All-Star Squadron in WWII, all the various aspects
Post WWII 1940’s – final JLA adventures; Young All-Stars, various other stories of Golden Age (re: Black Canary introduced post-WWII)
1950 – JSA disbanded, etc.
Early 1950’s – Blackhawks in the Korean War; Captain Comet, crazy science-fiction, Phantom Stranger, Congo Bill continues
Late 1950’s / Silver Age – Challengers of the Unknown, the Blackhawks continue to have adventures, Congo Bill becomes Congorilla, the JSA resurfaces; Plastic Man still having adventures, King Faraday in the Cold War
Thus, in the early 1960’s, the JSA comes out of retirement, and can “Sub-in” for the JLA in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Power Girl joins, they have children, etc.
1968 – since this is essentially the end of the Silver Age, a story would be inserted in which the JSA, their children, and specific characters are sent forward in time. Coming in place would be the Justice Experience, the 1970’s Starman, and any other characters that might be applicable specifically to the 1970’s / Bronze Age.
This leaves open the 80’s & 90’s as potential “open eras” for retconned heroes.
We then flash-forward to the ‘moving timeline’, which cannot ever be given specific dates to be tied down to. What we know is:
25 years ago – Superboy
Also during this time the Justice Society appear forward through time. A great story could then explain how they resume their identities, sometime in their 50’s, with their children still toddlers. (thus, in the current time, it explains their ages). I see King Faraday as this immortal super-spy, active since the 1950’s, so maybe he, Plastic Man and a few others still alive from the 1950’s, help get them situated with identities and stuff on the ground they are not superheroes. So they are in retirement essentially again.
12 years ago – Superman, Batman, Green Arrow, Aquaman adventures underwater/unknown to the world
10 years ago – Flash II, Green Lantern II – basically all the characters of the Silver Age now firmly planted within the moving timeline
9 years ago to today – the basic history of the DCU within a 9 year period (or even less, no need to make it a full 9 years). Of course, as the decades expand, cramming all those adventures into this small period presents its own problems, but the readership appears unwilling to move on.
To explain all of this, and why the JSA is moved forward in time presents a few other opportunities: to explain the history of Superboy (Superman when he was a boy), to even show the Challengers of the Unknown in their era (like CJ mentions), and other things. To give a basic timeline, and even showcase some DCUers who have been active since the 1940’s, like Plastic Man.
You could also then have Booster Gold’s comic tie-in, having him visit various time periods and see things in a disjointed way (which is complicated and could be fun).
You could have Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl in their various incarnations throughout time.
You could have a few Legionnaires appearing to create a connection there. Perhaps some moving backwards through time? (That’s always a cool thing). Like Dawnstar, Shady and Wildfire, or whoever.
So you’d have lots of characters scattered throughout time, some meeting at different points, working against a common enemy (Vandal Savage is good but he’s been done to death), so there is a real storyline here. But in the background of this epic storyline the JSA / generational problem is fixed, Superboy is firmly established and characters truly specific to a particularly era are allocated to that era. End it all with a ‘history of the DCU’ index, make it like 80’s pages, charge a crazy $6.99 price since you know people will buy it and essentially make it the new DC bible.
They key would be it needs to be done as a great story first and foremost, and the focus should not be specifically on continuity. Just like Lost uses complex plot-devices, this could easily be done.
From: If you don't want my peaches, honey... | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
This could work, while making for an interesting weekly or maxi-series. One element that should probably need to happen is to establish that as the era of Superman, etc. starts, the JSA are either inactive, retired or missing for some time. There's always been a gap of time between the JSA's era and the JLA's as a way to make the current generation of heroes not seem less special. So if DC were to go with this approach, I'd suggest having the JSA reappear in their time jump a couple of years into the current heroic era. Maybe their kids were more like pre-teens or in their early teens when they reappeared instead of toddlers?
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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[Although she appeared beside her daughter in past-set series like JLA:Y1 and JLA Incarnations. Wasn't it James Robinson who tried to retcon her name to "Diana", to distinguish her from the younger "Dinah", or was that just the same sort of carelessness that led to him writing a whole Times Past issue involving "Allen Scott"?]
