New member Kevin referred to his current submission to Interlac, including an interview with Legion Companion editor Glen Cadigan, in this thread, and mentioned his Interlac tribute to the old Legion Outpost fanzine in this thread.
For those who don't know, Interlac is a Legion fanzine or "apa"zine (amateur press association) of about 30 years' standing that circulates as it always has, from long before the Net. Members make multiple paper copies of their submissions for each issue, and a "central mailer" collects, collates, and re-mails each issue.
Kevin posted a link to the Interlac Website, and my visit to it occasioned the commentary below, transferred to this thread.
Posted by Greybird on :
I hadn't checked the Interlac Website for some time. I'd be curious as to just how long the waiting list, if any, is at this time. I had forgotten that it only has a maximum of 50 members. For most remaining APAs, such limits are moot, as they're begging for participants. Interlac may, once again, now be among the exceptions.
I used to be a member of and participant in political APAs, into the mid-'80s, until the rise of personal computers. Although they had undeniable advantages before graphics programs, scanners, and Websites became common, and they do have the charm of personal styles' being combined, I still have my own strong problems with them. (This isn't to denigrate Kevin's or anybody's contributions, it's to make a critique of what few will admit is an outmoded structure.)
~ The permanent circulation is limited to those in the group, and sometimes a handful on a waiting list. No more than 50 to 60 people will ever see, for example, any copy of Interlac. They've condescended to display recent cover art on their Website, but the essence of the 'zine is never shared with anyone else.
~ Fans who would like to simply buy the issues are almost always simply excluded, and often with a regal disdain for having anyone not "in the group" see such work, as if they're not worthy to do so. (This has often been rationalized as to the practical "under the legal radar" limits of distributing fan fiction. Yet additional copies of such 'zines made and sold strictly at cost and on demand have rarely gained commercial publishers' negative interest, including that of DC.)
~ "Minac," or minimum activity level, is the required amount of contributions over a set period to remain in the group. These days, it's usually set too high for those of us who have busy lives. Producing quality contributions can take hours per week. Yes, many of us spend some of those hours at Websites, like this one, but we're also talking here about the overhead of print production, however small in cost and photocopier run.
~ Minac also works against those who are not capable of logorrhea about their favorite subjects, and who appreciate words and pictures without having their own voluminous reactions about them made available for others' attention.
~ APAs are for writers who want intense mutual interaction, and who don't want anyone outside the group to see their work. (Kevin clearly is one of the few exceptions.) This unusual combination of gregariousness and -- to me -- fear of criticism is not at all a common psychological type, further limiting those who tend to join APAs.
I know this may occasion a furious response from any APA members who are here, but frankly, there aren't enough such members as Kevin, who are willing to share their work more freely. And I've grown tired of the remaining APAs' elitism -- and retained a desire to actually be able to read more of what often is brilliant and passionate fan work, buried for all time in 50-to-60-copy editions.
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Greybird: I still have my own strong problems with [APA's]
I have belonged to three APA's: the Legion related APA-LSH and Klordney, as well as the grandpappy of all APA's Capa-Alpha.
I found APA's to be expensive to produce. 50 copies of even a modest 4 page APA can cost money to print, copy, and mail. And this on top of the costs for being in the APA.
I also found them to be time consuming. It takes time to print, copy, collate, staple, and run to the post office.
But my biggest problem with APA's was the time lag for conversations, or "MC's" which is short for mailing comments. I might respond to someone's 'zine. The responce appears a month after the original. Assuming they are not behind in their MC's, they comment in the next 'zine. So, it takes three months at best to engage in less than the conversation you and I have just had.
APA's are fun to read, when you can find someone who will let you look at their copy, but hard to participate in.
APA proponents cite their intimate and troll-free atmosphere. But I have made many close and long lasting friendships on internet communities such as this one, and hey... trolls can be fun.
I just don't see what advantage APA's have over the 'NET. Duke
Posted by Estimate Lad on :
I'm a member of Klordney although I'm quite new and thoroughly enjoying it. I think of the Legion Message Boards and APAs as two seperate beasts even though they are Legion related. I like the immediacy of posting but don't always have time for it due to work and my personal life while I do enjoy the creativity that a lot of folks put in the production of their APA contributions. I think if you go into an APA wanting the same type of response you get from being online you could be badly disappointed. I also think the reverse of this is true. APA's though do have one major advantage over online activity...you can read them anywhere including on the loo!
[ August 01, 2003, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: Estimate Lad ]
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
I don't see why people would be furious with your comments, Greybird. You make a number of valid points about the downsides of APAs.
I'm in two, both Legion-related - Intelac and Klordny.
Kevin's submissions tend to be very "self-contained" - they transfer well to any Legion medium, because they focus on the Legion rather than other comics/media, his personal life, political opinions - there has been a lot of chatter in the APAs lately about the Iraq war. Certainly most Legion MBs, up until this one, didn't offer a place for people to talk about their music interests, their vacations, their families, their hair - whatever. APAs did/do provide this, so you get to know people better.
The limited membership is a drawback, but I attributed that to practical purposes, rather than elitism. It would be costly to print a lot of extra copies for people who just wanted to read them, unless they committed to pay for them. It could certainly be done, but I wonder how much interest there would be.
I suspect APA membership tends to be older - people accustomed to waiting for magazines in the mail, used to sitting down and writing letters to friends. I don't really see that trend among young people - most are on-line, period.
It can get expensive to submit things if you go with color copies (very expensive!) and it is somewhat time-consuming to write and review a text. Some people just submit hand-written material, a minority - but it seems to work okay.
I can't address the "condescension" issue re: posting art/material on the websites but I'm inclined to attribute that to practical/time/just haven't gotten around to it rather than snobbery and exclusivity. It is a shame that more people don't have access to some of the APA material, for there are some real gems in those publications which would be of general interest to Legion fans.
I have found the other members to be very warm and inviting - and I'm not bringing much to the table. Did you get a big-time brush-off from somebody?
APAs probably are moving towards "out-moded" (I wouldn't say they're there yet, because they're still going) - at least in the present incarnation. They could change too - just as comics themselves may be moving on-line.
What do they have going for them? More depth than one tends to find on-line. More thought put into submissions than one tends to find on message boards.
You can take your time to read them, read them anywhere (as Estimate Lad said), easily read them piece-meal and no problems with downloads. (And look at the jackpot LegionPics has gotten into through Yahoo policy changes and moderator inattention - not that anything is permanent and devoid of problems.) There are a few members who don't have computers, or don't have easy/regular access to computers. That's probably a dying breed, but for the time being, these people have a place to exchange their views about the Legion.
I would liken them to the Slow Food movement. Not an exact comparison by any means, but certainly APAs have a different pace and quality (as in aspect, not good/bad) to them relative to the on-line boards. It's a different experience. No doubt the APAs should brainstorm about their future. At this point, it's a medium with which I enjoy working.
Posted by Kevin on :
The current waitlist is 4-5 people well we have a max membership of 50 yet only have about 27-28 members now so if you wanted to join it immediately you could. I wrote kevin Gould an e-mail got an issue and mailed my submission all within a month and didn't wait at all this was in January 2002.
briefly in my opinion the pros of APA's is you don't want to read 100 pages off a screen so it is nice to have something mailed and readablealso people are more social on mailing borads people can be nasty and rude(this is my opinion) when they disagree with you.
Cons are it costs money, limited distribution and subjects and be to anything but comics.
Posted by Kevin on :
Your in Interlac who is Fat Kramer anyway? Kevin
Posted by Kevin on :
Hey guys there are a few interesting points and I may include this thread in a future Interlac in one of my submissions anyone have objections? Kevin
Posted by Estimate Lad on :
Just another thought...especially on the elitism thing.
outside of Legion I also co-produce a science fiction fanzine with my partner. SF fanzines have often been described as "elitist" by those in SF fandom that don't participate in the fanzine side of things. I've always found this a bit odd. As a publisher each time I send to the copy shop our masters it cost approx. £100 a time. We then have to mail out to our contributors, people we swap zines with, those that have commented on stuff and to our friends we want to see a copy. The rest we hand out at conventions mostly on a first come basis. Once they're gone that's it. I've never thought on it being elitist at all just we don't have money to burn for a large circulation! We are in the process of designing a web-site which we hope will expand our readership but that'll take time...I can see the day when fanzines die out, and it will be because its cheaper to publish online.
And yes Kevin, I don't mind you expressing my views elsewhere.
Posted by Kevin on :
Elitist is in any form be it an APA or fandom or even in these messgae boards. A recent member to Interlac John Outpost2 got off message boards because he was called a "self aggrandalizing jerk". It is true that APA's are costly because I print up my submissions and mail them and they have limited distribution. I do have all my submiisons on WORD with the exception of a few photo copied pages I added here and there. Yet to know if fanzines and APA's will go away I would say they will go away when comics themself go away in a paper format which may eventually happen too, yet hard to picture that.
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