This is topic Legion Creator Tenure in forum Visionaries of Tomorrow at Legion World.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.legionworld.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000320
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Hey gang,

I'm in the process of rebuilding my Legion Creator Tenure list, not seen since a 1996 usenet post. I'd appreciate your thoughts on additions/deletions/corrections, etc.

What I'm counting on the list as a "Legion book" is posted here.

A final draft of the writers list is done and postedhere.

I'm working on artists and hope to have that up next week. Editors will come some time after that.

I'd post the whole writers list here, but it's long. Still, to whet your appetite, here's the top 10.

WRITERS:

1. PAUL LEVITZ: 162
(TDT C-55 — BDC 24 — CB 1-4 — DCP 13,43,59sc — DCS 28 — JLA 147,148 — KK 1-9 — LSH2 281sc,282sc,284-313 — LSH2A 1-3 — LSH3 1-63 — LSH3A 1-4 — LSH4 100 — LDCG 2 — SLSH 225,226,228-231,233,235-237,239,240pl,241-245,246pl,247,250-251sc — SO2 8,25 — SUB 1 —SSHS — TLSH 314-319,320-325pl)
(NOTE: KK 2-9 pseudonymously with David Michelinie as “Barry Jameson.”)

2. TOM McCRAW: 133
(ADCG 1 — L* 0,19pl,24-41-53pl,l55-60pl,62-74pl,76pl,77 — L*A 2 — LSH4 20ast,42pl,50-61,0,62-67,68-72pl,73-81pl,82,84-85,89-108p,110-119pl,120-121 — LSH4A 6,7pl — LSF1-2 — S96 8 — SB2 45pl)

3. KEITH GIFFEN: 103
(CD 5-12ast, 15ast,20ast,21ast,25ast,26ast — DCP 59 — DCW 1-6 -- L31 — L3 1-4pl — LSH2 293-313pl — LSH3 1-5pl,50-55pl,57-58pl,60-63pl — LSH3A 3pl — LSH4 1-24pl,26-27pl,29-32pl, 34-36pl,38pl — NSB 50 — SUB 1pl — TLSH 314-317pl)

4. TOM PEYER: 92
(F80G 2 — LoL 1-4sc — L* 19-34,40,44,47,54,75,1000000 — L*A 2 — LSH4 67,68-70pl,73-108,110-121,1000000 — LSH4A 6-7 — S96 11-12 — SM+ 1 — SG3A 2 — SB3 45pl — LSF 1-2)

5. MARK WAID: 73
(BB2 3-6 — IMP 9,21,25 — L* 16-18,0,19pl — L*A 1-2 — LSH4 59-61,0pl,62-67,68-70sc,71 — LSH4A 6 —LSH5 1-15 — SgLSH 16-28,30 — TTLS 1 — VLR 9,11-19)

6. TOM & MARY BIERBAUM: 67
(L* 1-15 — LSH4 1sc,2-41,42sc,43-50 — LSH4A 1-4 — SO2 42,47)

7. DAN ABNETT & ANDY LANNING: 63
(GDC — L 1-33 — LL1-12 — L* 78-81 — LSH4 122-125 — LSF 2-3 — LW1-6 —YJW 1)

8. JIM SHOOTER: 59
(ACT 378,380-382,384 — ADV 346-349,352-355,357-380 — LSH5 37-43 — SLSH 209-213,215,217,219-224 — SJO 99,106)

9. ROGER STERN: 43
(L* 35-39, 40sc,41-43,45-53,55-65,67-74,76-77 — L*A 3 — LSH4 91pl,100,105pl)

10. GERRY CONWAY: 32
(LSH2 259-264,265pl,266-76,277-278pl — SLSH 227,232,234-235,248-249,252-258)
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I guess it's no surprise that Levitz comes out on top. It does surprise me that McCraw is next and that Peyer ranks at number four. For some reason, I never think of them as being significant Legion writers.

Well, done, PB. Thanks for sharing your hard work.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
I said it'd be a week or so before the artists list was finished, but I went ahead and plowed through with it. It's still a rough draft, but I think it's complete enough for purusal by the Legion of Super-Fact Checkers:

Full list here; top 10 listed below.

ARTISTS:
(abbreviations: p=pencils, i=inks, br=breakdowns, ly-layouts, fn=finishes)

1. KEITH GIFFIN: 99
(CB 1-4br — CD 27-31br,34br,37br— DCP 59br — L31p — LSH2 285-313p — LSH2A 1p — LSH3 1-2p,11p,20p,45p,50-55p,57-63p — LSH3A 1-2p — LSH4 1-21p,26-32br,34-36br,38br,39,1000000p — NSB 50p— SUB 1p)

2. RON BOYD: 79
(ADC 10i — L*13i,0i,19i — L*A 1i,3i — LSH4 40-48i,50,52-56i,58-61i,0i,62-94i,96-98i,100-108i,110-112i — LSH4A 4i,6i — LSF 1 — S96 10i — VLR 8i)

3. JEFFERY MOY: 64
(LoL 2p — L* 15p,0p,19-24p,26p,29-44p,46-55p,57-65p,67-78p — L*A 1-2p — LSH4 89p,94p,100p — LSF1-2p)

4. W.C. CARANI: 59
(LoL 2i — L* 21i,23-24i,26-55i,57-65i,67-78i — L*A 2i — LSH 100i — LSF 1,2i)

5. LARRY MAHLSTEDT:49
(LSH2 285-287i,289-294i,296-313i — LSH3 1-6i,8-11i,13-15i,17-21i,24i — LSH3A 2i — LSH4A 1i — SO2 42i)

6. CURT SWAN: 42
(ADV 293p,313p,340-345p,347p,349-357p,359-360p,365-372p — DCP 43p,80p — LSH2 300p,306p — LSH2A 3p — LSH3 39p,45p — LSH3A 2p — LSH4 31p — SO2 46p,47p — SB 98p,117p — SM 147p — SJO 72p)

7. AL GORDON: 44
(LSH3 55-61i — LSH4 1-8i,12-21i,26i,28-29i,31-32i,34i,113i,1000000i — LSH4 3i — SO2 47i —TW 1-5 — VLR 1-2i)

8. MIKE DeCARLO: 41
(BB179i — LSH2 309i — LSH3 7i,19-20i,22-23i,25-54i,56i,62-63i — LSH3A 3i)

9. LEE MODER: 38
(LSH4 62-66p,68-88p, 90-92p, 94-100p,109p — LSF 1p)

10. JOHN FORTE: 36
(ADV 300-312,314-321,322-323p,324-327,332p,333,334-337p,338,339p —SJO 76)

10. JIM SHOOTER: 36
(ACT 378br,380br,381br,384br — ADV 346-349br,352-255br,357-380br)

10. ANDY LANNING: 36
(LSF2i — L* 78-80i — LSH4 122-123i — LL1-12i — LW1i — L 1-4i,6-8i,10-12i,14-18i,27i)
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
Heh, now that's a really curious list... Boyd & Moy in the Top 3? I guess artists in the Modern Age are just a little more committed with their runs... Perhaps adding cover artists may be more effective; that'd give old-timers like Swan and Cockrum a few spots above.
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
Ironically... both Levitz and Giffen were not listed in the 'Visionnaries of Tommorow'... even though it had some late creators.
 
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 
I'm also surprised at how well reboot-era creators did. Especially McCraw and Peyer, who aren't so popular.

Interesting that the top writers stuck with Legion longer than the top artists.
 
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PenaltyKillah:
Ironically... both Levitz and Giffen were not listed in the 'Visionnaries of Tommorow'... even though it had some late creators.
Only creators with memberships (known to us at least [Wink] ) are listed there. No slights intended by anyone who hasn't joined up with us.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Of course, Peyer and McCraw had the advantage of two monthly Legion books running during their tenure. That helps to bump up the average.
 
Posted by andrewnolan2001 on :
 
Hi Portfolio Boy, Ferro here. While I usually just lurk, I had to send a quick note. A return of the Legion Creator Tenure List!

I do recall promising to send you a paper copy of your original list. My apologies as I moved back to the United-States three years ago and never sent the list. If you still have a need to reference your old list, just send me a message and I will be sure to make this a priority.

Just reviewing the artist list quickly, I wanted to break the three-way tie for spot number 10. Andy Lanning inked the cover and all of the interiors to Legionnaires #81.

Thanks again, Portfolio Boy, these lists are always appreciated!
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
All in all, that list is as insightful as the Top Grossing Movies list, inflation unadjusted.

And I sorta knew about the VoT... and Cockrum actually crashed on this pad? Didn't think he'd live long enough for LW.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
Wow, reboot was really that bad! That's why I thought it never ended: they really put out too much "work" during that period. Which makes it even more impressive how high we place Shooter, Cockrum, Grell and Lightle in Legion canon: in fewer issues, so much more quality.
But I thought Waid would be higher in the writer's list.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 

 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Hm, McCraw and Peyer, quantity instead of quality as we are saying here... of course they had a better chance to reach high numbers with two books a month. McCraw as a colorist never did another book again, or did he?
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
I'm amazed Laroque and DeCarlo aren't on the artists list...it seemed like they were the art team for virtually the entire Baxter run.

It could just be that it seemed to last an enternity because I literally hated what DeCarlo's inks did to poor Greg Laroque's pencils. I always figured Larocque had to be somewhat of a true gentleman because DeCarlo ruined his stuff month after month. To the degree that I'd say the pairing was a career setback for LaRoque. His other work he's shown to defeinitely have a fantasy-esque flair to his work that always kind of reminded me of a sci-fi version of Esteban Maroto...but the result of the pairing with DeCarlo was just ugly art.


Also, if L.E.G.I.O.N. is to be counted then Barry Kitson enters the contest(in fact he might even then claim the top artist spot) and Waid and Giffen both get a bump to their numbers as well.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Superboy,

I did not include L.E.G.I.O.N. on the list. My reasoning was that the list should count only what seems intended as a "LSH" story. For that reason, I left out L.E.G.I.O.N., all but one issue of Wanderers, all cameo and A/R books, and most minor appearances.

I labored a long time over whether or not to include Phase's appearances in L.E.G.I.O.N. and Star Man's tenure with JSA, because I do count stories featuring individual Legionnaires, but ultimately decided against it.

I am however, very open to debate on what should or should not be included on the list. What do you think?

BTW, DeCarlo is on the list at #8 (41 books worked on). I have Laroque bit further down the list:

15. GREG LaROCQUE: 33
(LSH3 17-48p — LSH3A 3p)
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
I think L.E.G.I.O.N. should be considered part of the LSH canon, myself. If I am not mistaken, I remember there was a scene on a later issue of v4 where a L.E.G.I.O.N. logo was found under some debris and this would tie the whole Dominator War directly to that book. But maybe I saw too much.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Portfolio Boy:
Superboy,

I did not include L.E.G.I.O.N. on the list. My reasoning was that the list should count only what seems intended as a "LSH" story. For that reason, I left out L.E.G.I.O.N., all but one issue of Wanderers, all cameo and A/R books, and most minor appearances.

I labored a long time over whether or not to include Phase's appearances in L.E.G.I.O.N. and Star Man's tenure with JSA, because I do count stories featuring individual Legionnaires, but ultimately decided against it.

I am however, very open to debate on what should or should not be included on the list. What do you think?

BTW, DeCarlo is on the list at #8 (41 books worked on). I have Laroque bit further down the list:

15. GREG LaROCQUE: 33
(LSH3 17-48p — LSH3A 3p)
Yeah I guess it's a judgement call really...not just PG but Valor was in it for a bit as well.


Hmmm...I don't suppose you have the rankings of Joe Staton and Dave Cockrum available do you?

I think Cockrum definitely rates the highest in terms of impact to actual issues drawn.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Cockrum actually never did do all that many Legion books. I have him ranked 27th:

27. DAVE COCKRUM: 17
(L 25p — LSH2 300 — LSH3 45p — SO2 42p — SB 183p,184p,188p,190p,191,193,195 — SLSH 197-201,202p)

Staton did slightly more, although the figures are bolsterd by his inking the Karate Kid series.

19. JOE STATON: 27
(KK 1-9i — LSH2 259-260p,300p — SLSH 227p,243-249p,252-258p)
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
What does everyone else think? Should L.E.G.I.O.N. be added to the list? I've got two yes votes, so far.

Frankly, I forgot about Valor. Two Legionnaires, plus to Legion ancestors, plus a whole lot of Legion pre-history (although more and more of it retconned all the time) would argue for the series inclusion. I think I'm leaning that way, myself.

Thoughts?
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
You'll have to decide, Portfolio Boy, what criteria constitutes a Legion story in your view. The idea is to not make the list so unwieldy that it would be meaningless. From my own experience, a somewhat narrow definition works best. This would mean excluding solo Legionnaire appearances as well as L.E.G.I.O.N. (Solo Legionnaires are not the same as the Legion as a team, but that's my view. Again, it depends on what criteria makes a story a Legion story to you.)

I had a similar experience several years ago when I wrote biographies for a Web site dedicated to the rock group Jefferson Airplane/Jefferson Starship/Starship. Not only did this group change its name twice, but it also underwent numerous personnel changes. I wrote about 30 member biographies (and a lengthy group history), but I drew the line by excluding members of Hot Tuna, an Airplane spinoff group, who were not also members of the parent group. I reasoned that Hot Tuna was a different group, just as L.E.G.I.O.N. is a different group from the Legion, despite strong connections.

Only one fan ever questioned me on this decision, and he never responded when I gave him my reason.

The point is, make sure your criteria is logical to you as the list-maker, even if others may have their own ideas and preferences.

[ July 24, 2008, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
 
Posted by Jerry on :
 
Go ask Alice.
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
I did. She said to check with the Dormouse. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Jerry on :
 
Was she ten feet tall?
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
No, she was just as small.
 
Posted by Jerry on :
 
What website did you write the biographies for? Are they still up?
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Sadly, that Website no longer exists, but some of my biographies are available on Jefferson Airplane's official site. Here's one example.
 
Posted by Jerry on :
 
Thanks for the link. Nice site. Great band. Great job on the bio's.

[ July 25, 2008, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
 
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
 
Thanks. It was a blast being able to research and write about them.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Portfolio Boy:
What does everyone else think? Should L.E.G.I.O.N. be added to the list? I've got two yes votes, so far.

Frankly, I forgot about Valor. Two Legionnaires, plus to Legion ancestors, plus a whole lot of Legion pre-history (although more and more of it retconned all the time) would argue for the series inclusion. I think I'm leaning that way, myself.

Thoughts?
You definitely can't include solo series...if you do this becomes a totally different list with guys like Jerry Siegel, Jim Mooney, Curt Swan and Cary Bates smashing everyone else and not entirely due to the number of Legion stories they have produced.


And I can see point behind that against argument with the Wanderers as well, since they didn't really have many ties to the Legion other than a shared Universe/Timeframe.


L.E.G.I.O.N. on the other hand did feature multiple true Legionaires and their ancestors, and it was almost exlusively created, written and drawn by renown Legion creators like Mark Waid, Barry Kitson and Keith Giffen who all had multiple and lengthy turns on the actual Legion book. I always thought of it as a Legion book...sure not all the characters were recognizable...but you could say that about several versions of the actual Legion since then as well.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
Yeah, I'm leaning toward including L.E.G.I.O.N.

We may be on different pages regarding solo series, though. I include things like Karate Kid, Cosmic Boy, Timber Wolf and Inferno. I don't include Superboy and Supergirl stories unless there is a significant Legion connection.
 
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
 
I agree with Portfolio Boy. Superboy and Supergirl were created for non-Legion stories and I don't think of them as Legionnaires first.
 
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by andrewnolan2001:


I do recall promising to send you a paper copy of your original list. If you still have a need to reference your old list, just send me a message and I will be sure to make this a priority.

No need to go to the touble. However, please advise if you spot any errors on the list. A great many people helped with the original version and I have no doubt that I allowed errors and typos to creep in when rebuilding the list.
 
Posted by armsfalloffboy on :
 
I think it's just amazing that there are so many whose contribution to Legion lore is so out of proportion to their actual number of complete issues (Cockrum, Grell) versus those who wrote or drew so many issues that don't seem to have had any long lasting effect on what we consider "important" stories; this list seems to show that there's an awful lot of those reboot stories that don't seem to have made a whole lot of difference to a lot of us.
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
Creators tend to last much less than the labourers, and that's all to common in franchise comics. That is all. The creators which rose the Legion to new heights, for all I know, is Siegel/Swan (converted the Legion into an actual team, not a one-shot), Shooter (for introducing half of the Legion's universal concepts), and Cockrum/Levitz (rest is history).


Who brought them to new lows? John Byrne, for you-know-what. Giffen, for a big you-know-what, though he deserves a high for unknowingly converting the Legion into a more fanfare-centered franchise... and Waid, Waid, and Waid. The Legion of Three Waids consist of throwing away a 35-year old cornerstone of DC and eliminating its potential for mass (by that I mean 'general population' mass) popularity), THEN revamping a relatively young revamp to attempt getting kids to read it (well, at least he convinced at least one [Wink] ), and when that wasn't successful... bringing in a Super to 'aid' the Legion, which is always effective. Not!

[ August 06, 2008, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: PenaltyKillah ]
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
Sorry, but to ignore Levitz/Giffen or Levitz/Lightle is simply unforgivable. And I'd say Keith solo was the ultimate high, for proving the Legion could be way more than funny costumes and fist-fights.
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
PenaltyKillah, though I am thinking totally different about Giffen, I love your comment about Waid... he really is kind of a tragic figure, being such a big fan but failing so miserably in all his attempts to "right" the book...
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
PenaltyKillah, though I am thinking totally different about Giffen, I love your comment about Waid... he really is kind of a tragic figure, being such a big fan but failing so miserably in all his attempts to "right" the book...
To Waid's defense, his early issues on Legionnaires were very good, much better than what was going on on the "adult" (dumber) title. And I think the reboot itself was wrong, so I wouldn't blame Waid for trying something else because this is what DC had asked him. And you can't fix what was good in the first place (as time has proved).
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
That's right, but wasn't Waid some kind of an editor back then when Zero Hour destroyed my faith in the comic book industry? I don't know for sure but as far as I remember, he very gladly jumped on the "let's erase all Legion Lore" bandwagon...

But while Waids fault concerning Zero Hour might be discussed, I still am totally aghast how a splendid writer like him could come up with such a callow concept for the Legion Threeboot...
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
That's right, but wasn't Waid some kind of an editor back then when Zero Hour destroyed my faith in the comic book industry? I don't know for sure but as far as I remember, he very gladly jumped on the "let's erase all Legion Lore" bandwagon...

But while Waids fault concerning Zero Hour might be discussed, I still am totally aghast how a splendid writer like him could come up with such a callow concept for the Legion Threeboot...
The only time Waid was an Editor for DC, he was also the Editor for the first 5 issues of the 5YG. He didn't do editing long...about a year or so. He got out of editing when he quit the 5YG....was still in the 80's I think.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
Waid never got to write the Legion he wanted to write...5YG wasn't the Legion to him, it wasn't the Legion to a lot of us. And this is not a bash...it's just a statement that it wasn't the Legion that made a lot of Legion fans, Legion fans.

To me the 5YG is no different than the end of the Levitz run, the Reboot, the Threeboot...none of them were the book I really wanted to read. So I don't think Waid commited some horrible crime by rebooting the title..IMO it had already been rebooted and the original Legion was already gone. And I think that's the way Waid felt too..and the reason he rebooted the 5YG was so the continuity would make sense. But anyway, they were all reboots to me. The Legion was no longer special to me when Waid rebooted it...either time.

And none of them are really any better or any worse...I think Shooter has done the best Legion since the Crisis...but it's not that great.
It's still not the Legion to me. It's just basically a team book. I will give Shooter this...the book doesn't feel like as much of a retread to me for some reason with him writing it...and the characters seem more alive(even with the bad dialogue).

But now...I am pretty damn tired of rebooting. I don't really care anymore, I just want them to stop rebooting the title. Just find one that works and stop rebooting it. But they aren't going to stop doing that until it sells better.

I am sick of sitting through the reintroductions/intepretations lol. That is old...


Because every time they just have to throw some tweaks in there...and they don't really do anything new. They don't really introduce anyone new...the last memorable villains created for this book, were created by Jim Shooter back in the Silver Age. That is lame...
 
Posted by Chemical King on :
 
We had this discussion, and talked about the reasons why to me, the Legion that grew up with me (though with major continuity challenges) felt very real and the Kiddie book that followed did not.

But that is the past, and you're right: it is not funny to get a new legion version every five years or so. thus, they never will be able to build up some decent "Legion Lore" to thrive from. The series was robbed its history, its tradition - you say it was in 1985, I'm saying it was in 1994, still since then, hardly any "new history" was established. The Reboot had its (few) moments, but mostly they tackled problems like Tangleweb - the really "history making" events like White Triangle were too few, they thought it would be better to send half of the team to the 20th century for a year to do some crossover galore...

And the Threeboot continuity feels incredibly bland, not a hinch of "history feeling" there til Shooter took over.

Another reboot is just another attempt to bring back old glory. But even if "Legion Lore" in its classic version is reintroduced - thus providing the book tons of loose end stories to thrive on - there probably won't be a large enough crowd to sustain it. We saw what the nitpickers did to Lightning Saga and Action Legion - they just did not want to accept it.

But what is the solution? Continuing the current Threeboot will never succeed, not with the shipwreck that Mark Waid delivered as a basis. Of course, with all its blandness there is a lot that any writer can add without contradicting anything that came before...

But I'll take the Classic attempt. I liked Lightning Saga for its feeling, Action Legion for its story, both for the characters featured: Classic Legionnaires who might just be the original ones.

And maybe, they could finally add some new villains too...
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PenaltyKillah:
Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
Giffen did an homage to Levitz by starting a-fresh, but not ignoring the past. Keith had such a great respect for the original run he did something that not even DC board dared to: re-think the LSH but recognizing what came before. Fine thread to run, in fact. So fine nobody was able to do so after him.
At that time, there was no Sandman or Starman, which became sole properties of Gaiman and Robinson. Giffen thought that chapter of Legion had to be finished at that point. Which makes Keith's choice even more impressive, because it would be much simpler to keep going from The Magic Wars, for obvious reasons.
And I was not impressed by Archie Legion. I am impressive how long it lasted considering nobody dares to place it into one the best runs of the book. For much less, Keith, Tom & Mary were "left in the dark" and "shot" by TPTB.
I am still waiting for a real reappreciation of TMK's run by DC. A HC should be just the beginning of it... [Smile]
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical King:
But that is the past, and you're right: it is not funny to get a new legion version every five years or so. thus, they never will be able to build up some decent "Legion Lore" to thrive from. The series was robbed its history, its tradition - you say it was in 1985, I'm saying it was in 1994, still since then, hardly any "new history" was established. The Reboot had its (few) moments, but mostly they tackled problems like Tangleweb - the really "history making" events like White Triangle were too few, they thought it would be better to send half of the team to the 20th century for a year to do some crossover galore...
I concur. The editorial at DC, Byrne, Giffen's creative decisions... you gotta admit, it hurt the Legion's potential of keeping up with the Titans and possibly the X-Men. If something (in this case, any Legion incarnation after CoIE) doesn't have sufficient time to build up and generate the hype and lore needed to create some buzz, it would be even more difficult to instantly start all over, especially when the backstory isn't there, references and relevances to the past are insufficient or just superficial, etc. One more note about Keith... while I mentioned before that his decision to deviate from the previous run, he did bring in a whole new fanbase with plots that, compared with comics published that time and even now, managed to humanize the characters that we all love. And especially for a futuristic book leaning on the sci-fi genre! For that, I tip my hat to Keith, as well as Tom & Mary.
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:
Originally posted by PenaltyKillah:
Well, I meant Giffen's 'new low' as in his choice to defect the Legion from Levitz's run, to 'pay respect' or whatsoever. Or he couldn't think of a storyline to continue from the Magic Wars. What he should deserve, though, is giving the Legion a new high in storytelling quality, especially in character depth and stuff. I did not ignore the major players in the Legion's tenure, just those who initiated its descent into new heights (that's why there's Cockrum but not Grell - though copying Cockrum's designs off his sketchbook has certainly helped) or the lows (so I wouldn't blame McCraw, Peyer, or Stern, who pulled off an impressive half-decade of Archie Legion issues - they did the best under what the editorial imposed upon.)
Giffen did an homage to Levitz by starting a-fresh, but not ignoring the past. Keith had such a great respect for the original run he did something that not even DC board dared to: re-think the LSH but recognizing what came before. Fine thread to run, in fact. So fine nobody was able to do so after him.
At that time, there was no Sandman or Starman, which became sole properties of Gaiman and Robinson. Giffen thought that chapter of Legion had to be finished at that point. Which makes Keith's choice even more impressive, because it would be much simpler to keep going from The Magic Wars, for obvious reasons.
And I was not impressed by Archie Legion. I am impressive how long it lasted considering nobody dares to place it into one the best runs of the book. For much less, Keith, Tom & Mary were "left in the dark" and "shot" by TPTB.
I am still waiting for a real reappreciation of TMK's run by DC. A HC should be just the beginning of it... [Smile]
Holy wow... not one for TMK? Very uncalled-for... and the Archie Legion's run was 'impressive' for staying that long without any intervention from above. If DC thought that Reboot was delighting the bulk of the Legion's fanbase, especially the ones enchanted by TMK, by keeping Waid's non-editorial decision... and more significantly, letting sales plummet during that decade... they were very wrong indeed. I mean, the
'90s was, all in all, the Great Depression for the comic medium. Creator-owned comics was on the rise, Giffen did something like it with his deviation of the Legion, but the point is that those great comic franchises were able to survive with all the licensing deals for those Saturday morning cartoons. It was the time when alternatives had to be explored for those companies to survive, and bringing back the Legion's old times (especially a retelling of the Swan and Shooter years) didn't cut the cake.
 
Posted by Director Lad on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Portfolio Boy
BTW, DeCarlo is on the list at #8 (41 books worked on). I have Laroque bit further down the list:

15. GREG LaROCQUE: 33
(LSH3 17-48p — LSH3A 3p)
I'm amazed he was only on for 33 issues. I hated his art some much that I actually stopped reading the Legion for a couple of months before starting again like a crazed junkie.

quote:
Originally posted by Superboy
It could just be that it seemed to last an enternity because I literally hated what DeCarlo's inks did to poor Greg Laroque's pencils. I always figured Larocque had to be somewhat of a true gentleman because DeCarlo ruined his stuff month after month. To the degree that I'd say the pairing was a career setback for LaRoque. His other work he's shown to defeinitely have a fantasy-esque flair to his work that always kind of reminded me of a sci-fi version of Esteban Maroto...but the result of the pairing with DeCarlo was just ugly art.
But now, based on Superboy's comment, I guess I have to track down some example of Laroque's work in other books. I've hated his stuff for so long, it's probably time that I give him a second look.

quote:
Originally posted by PenaltyKillah
... and Waid, Waid, and Waid. The Legion of Three Waids consist of throwing away a 35-year old cornerstone of DC and eliminating its potential for mass (by that I mean 'general population' mass) popularity), THEN revamping a relatively young revamp to attempt getting kids to read it (well, at least he convinced at least one [Wink] ), and when that wasn't successful... bringing in a Super to 'aid' the Legion, which is always effective. Not!
(Dons fireproof suit) I actually really enjoyed Waid's recent work on the book. I was just fine with a new reboot considering that the Legion that got "booted" this time wasn't "mine." I'd really disliked the DnA run on the book and wanted to see the team get back to more of a club atmosphere. To me, WaK's Legion felt more like "my" Legion than the Reboot Legion ever did. One of the highlights of Comic-Con for me was catching Waid at the end of a Boom! Comics panel (it was right before the Keith Giffen spotlight in the same room) and telling him how much I'd enjoyed it.
 
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
 
As much as I enjoyed Threeboot, I imagined it as a better fit if it was an Image Comics series or something... that's how far it was from the original look and feel of the Legion, the one that was progressively building to be one of DC's cornerstones... yet it kept getting shifted around, not allowing the sands of time to build around it. All in all, Mark Waid's a genius where it counts. But directing the Legion back to the right track? Not so much.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Director Lad:
quote:
Originally posted by Superboy
It could just be that it seemed to last an enternity because I literally hated what DeCarlo's inks did to poor Greg Laroque's pencils. I always figured Larocque had to be somewhat of a true gentleman because DeCarlo ruined his stuff month after month. To the degree that I'd say the pairing was a career setback for LaRoque. His other work he's shown to defeinitely have a fantasy-esque flair to his work that always kind of reminded me of a sci-fi version of Esteban Maroto...but the result of the pairing with DeCarlo was just ugly art.
But now, based on Superboy's comment, I guess I have to track down some example of Laroque's work in other books. I've hated his stuff for so long, it's probably time that I give him a second look.
Try his Flash run with Mark Waid and Josι Marzαn Jr. He is one of my favorite Flash artists. And Mike DeCarlo is a great cartoonist (most of his work is with Captain Carrot and Archie, for instance), but definitely not good with superhero fare.

quote:
(Dons fireproof suit) I actually really enjoyed Waid's recent work on the book. I was just fine with a new reboot considering that the Legion that got "booted" this time wasn't "mine." I'd really disliked the DnA run on the book and wanted to see the team get back to more of a club atmosphere. To me, WaK's Legion felt more like "my" Legion than the Reboot Legion ever did. One of the highlights of Comic-Con for me was catching Waid at the end of a Boom! Comics panel (it was right before the Keith Giffen spotlight in the same room) and telling him how much I'd enjoyed it. [/qb]
I gotta agree with you that Threeboot is way better than the Reboot ever was, but in spite of some highlights, most of his run was undermined by irregular pencilling, a very weak board concept (youth against adults cannot endure too long) and some lack of characterization.
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
And Mike DeCarlo is a great cartoonist (most of his work is with Captain Carrot and Archie, for instance), but definitely not good with superhero fare.
I can't think of Mike DeCarlo ever doing any pencilling...although I am sure he did.

I think you got him confused on the Archie stuff though, with Dan DeCarlo...the guy that was the Archie artist decades, and he was a great cartoonist, especially outside of his Arhcie stuff. But even that Archie look was copied by DC and Marvel(or hell maybe it was Dan DeCarlo himself doing it).
 
Posted by Superboy on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Director Lad:
But now, based on Superboy's comment, I guess I have to track down some example of Laroque's work in other books. I've hated his stuff for so long, it's probably time that I give him a second look.
He's much better without Mike DeCarlo overpowering his pencils with all those heavy inks.
 
Posted by Ricardo on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo:
And Mike DeCarlo is a great cartoonist (most of his work is with Captain Carrot and Archie, for instance), but definitely not good with superhero fare.
I can't think of Mike DeCarlo ever doing any pencilling...although I am sure he did.

I think you got him confused on the Archie stuff though, with Dan DeCarlo...the guy that was the Archie artist decades, and he was a great cartoonist, especially outside of his Arhcie stuff. But even that Archie look was copied by DC and Marvel(or hell maybe it was Dan DeCarlo himself doing it).
Yeah, you are right, I think I mixed up with Dan DeCarlo. But I think Mike did work with more cartoonish books somehow.
 
Posted by Anita Cocktail on :
 
Simply fascinating!
 
Posted by Reboot on :
 
As opposed to complexly interesting? [Razz]
 
Posted by Anita Cocktail on :
 
Let's leave my complexion out of it, darling.

Auntie Anita is continually vexed by an oily T-zone!
 


Legion of Super-Heroes & all related proper names & images are ™ & © material of DC Comics, Inc. & are used herein without its permission.
This site is intended solely to celebrate & publicize these characters & their creators.
No commercial benefit, nor any use beyond the “fair use” review & commentary provisions of United States copyright law, is either intended or implied.
Posts made on this message board must not be reproduced without the author's consent.

Powered by ubbcentral.com
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2