Andy Lanning, originally posted February 19, 2001 06:31 PM: OK, I've given it a couple of days for the dust to settle, for the shock to hopefully have worn off and for my bloody comp copies to arrive so I can read issue #12 in it's correct form before raising my head above the parapets.
This is gonna be long as I hope to respond to a lot of what's been raised in the many threads in the aftermath of Lost #12.
First up I've emailed Tsarin privately and hope to try to coax Tsarin back onto the boards and into the discussion once more. I think he's almost willing to give it another shot, at the very least he's committed himself to reply to your posts on his 'Calling the Role' thread which will, hopefully, lead to more of his excellent, thoughtful, well-written, insightful critiques and reviews (now there's a selection of words I never thought I'd use in conjunction with 'review' and 'critique'!).
Tsarin main concern, and that of some other posters, is that we've somehow mistreated and misrepresented Element Lad during the last two issues of the series.
I can appreciate how, to those of you to whom Jan was your favorite character, the transformation from Element Lad to Progenitor came as a shock and how his actions and ultimate fate could have engendered such feelings of sadness and betrayal.
All I can say is that it was meant to.
It's only when we really care for characters and invest emotion and expectation in their actions and fates that the stories we read really affect us. It's what we as storytellers are trying to do.
From the outset, Dan and I were determined to get as many people as possible interested in the Legion again. We wanted people to care for these great characters and their tales again. We wanted people talking about the books, creating a buzz, a sense of excitement and anticipation that, for whatever reasons, wasn't present when we took over (and the sales figures meant the shadow of cancellation was looming over the titles).
What's more, we wanted to create a Legion of the 'now': by that I mean a Legion for today's comic readers, not something that was forever harking back to the glory days of old or rehashing previous stories and previous character interactions. We wanted to present a fresh vital, dynamic Legion that would not only attract new readers, but lure back strays and, hopefully, keep the old guard happy.
TALL order, no s&*^% Sherlock!
Have we succeeded?
Yes and no. We're on the way, sales are up, people are talking about the book all over, the message boards are buzzing, Fan press like Wizard (popularist and shallow to some, but read in great numbers and undeniably a force to be reckoned with in today's market) are regularly mentioning the title generously and with recommendation.
Unfortunately, we've also put a number of noses out of joint and alienated some of the more die-hard fans of old. This was bound to happen- we knew this from the getgo- and I stated here several times in the past that we knew we couldn't keep everybody happy and accepted that we would lose some readers. Our hope was that we'd gain 2 new ones for every disgruntled reader we lost. The sales bare us out, we're doing that and better.
But it's only the start. We're by no means complacent or resting on our laurels.
We think we're someway to generating that buzz and interest. One thing's for sure, The Legion's not a safe, comfortable read anymore. There's a real sense that anything can, and will, happen.
Sadly, we had to lose a few friends in order to achieve what we have. But it wasn't for nothing. Their sacrifices and fates were part of an exciting, thrill-ride of a tale and were true to the story we were telling.
Dan and I knew from the start that a death would most likely occur in Lost, we felt it was necessary to highlight the very real danger the Legionnaires faced as well as serving to illustrate the true heroic ideals they represent as Legionnaires: It was only when we were well into the plotting of the series that we saw that there might be call for more than one death- Monstress' death showed the irredeemable nature of the Progenitor- once that occurred all bet's were off, they were playing for keeps.
Garth's death was noble and heroic in the true classic heroic sense-he died saving his friends and two universes, he did what had to be done despite what he would lose. But in doing so, found purpose once more and to all of you who doubt it, it does MEAN something and will have serious repercussions in the ongoing Legion story.
We have a great deal of respect for these characters and for what has come before but not at the expense of story or drama. We cannot indulge ourselves in trying to second guess readers response to what we plan to do, that would hamstring our creativity and restrict our freedom to take the story and characters into fresh new areas, not relying on the tried and trusted or revamping a past glory. We don't want to recreate the Legion of past, ours is the Legion of now and of the future.
It's part of the ONGOING Legion story we aim to tell- we're talking LONGTERM here- we have a plan, honest (Oh, BTW to those of you who have suggested we made up the stuff about Tinya being an illusion as we went on, as some kind of knee-jerk response to posts on the messages boards, a big fat *PPPPRRRFFFFFTTTT! In fact, here's a tidbit for you, we initially, in the preplanning stages, toyed with the idea of Garth being the illusionary character but went for Tinya as we thought the possible romantic triangle and guilt issues for the protagonists were too irresistible! In fact the whole thing has left us with innumerable dramatic possibilities that we're going to have a great time exploring in upcoming issues).
Legion Lost was the springboard that has enabled us to continue- consider Legion Worlds an epilog of sorts to Lost and a prolog to what comes next. Though Lost was a 12 issue mini- in reality it's yet another chapter in the ongoing Legion story we're telling and all of the things that have appeared and happened during the series will be played out and revisited during the months to come, it's gonna be a hell of a ride!
And then there's Jan...
Ok, all I can do is offer an insight into what we were thinking and how we saw the development of the character and story possibilities which led us to choose the story we did.
First, and most important, we were dealing with the character of Jan Arrah from the Reboot of 5 years ago.
Period.
That's all the continuity we were playing with. All the character development. All the events and story points. All that came before, however much we personally enjoyed and respect it, was null and void. That happened when the reboot occurred, and had nothing to do with us. If your beef is this isn't E-Lad of this or that era or E-Lad of this or that era wouldn't do that or act that way, then you're right, it isn't!
This is Jan Arrah, last surviving Trommite. Who saw his whole race wiped out in a violent genocidal act of terrorism. Who was adopted by the Legion and has learnt to become a real hero in his time as a member of the team. Who's gentle spiritual nature made him the true soul of the team. Who proved sin the conclusion of the 'Rifts' storyline, what a truly awesome power he possessed and how heroic he can be by saving an entire galaxy no matter the cost to himself.
Who, in the first issue of Lost, and I think this is very important and overlooked (or at least never mentioned) by a lot of the naysayers, SAVED EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS LOST COMRADES at the apparent expense of his own life. I truly believe we showed what a tremendous character Jan was during the early issues of Lost.
This is Jan Arrah. Element Lad. Legionnaire. Hero.
I'll also state for the record as far as I'm concerned, that Jan Arrah is NOT the Progenitor!
Let me explain:
Many of you have categorically, eloquently, with great passion and at great length denied that Jan could do the things the Progenitor has done. Absolutely flatly denied it. Never happen. Never. Mainly because of the characteristics I've stated above.
We obviously see things differently:
I see the Postboot character of Jan Arrah summed up in one word: change.
Change has permeated his life. It formed the core of his being. It was his race's philosophy and religious belief. It is fundamental to his powers. It shaped his life and moulded his very being. He's stated many times 'Change is my life' That death was considered by his people to be nothing more than a 'step in one's evolution'.
It was this belief that helped him come to terms with the death of his race- he transmuted their remains to crystal as a monument to the change they were undertaking. He was a great believer in destiny- fate, a preordained path we must accept and travel-
This philosophy of change and fate led Jan to be the gentle, spiritual being he was but also made him introspective, open-minded, a tad 'spacey'.
Some of you have cited the events in Legionnaires#67 as defining moments in the development of Jan's character: they are proof he couldn't be capable of harm. That's one way of looking at it.
We thought it merely served to show how open to change his nature really is- one event supplanted a whole lifetime's teachings and beliefs. For him to embrace a new set of ideals based on the events in the caves showed how he was capable of changing even the core beliefs of his race (beliefs that were his final legacy of Trom). It shows his willingness to adapt and alter his outlook based on his experience.
OK- we saw a character with an open mindedness and adaptability that's been demonstrated time and again, a character who, though demonstrably a hero, has had several life changing experiences in his past- the destruction of his entire race (something that must have left deep, deep scars, never fully expressed), the possession of his will not by one but two separate villainous foes: the Blight and Madame Chu (who was said to have "wiped his mind clean"), as well as the climatic events when he closed the rift to save the universe which led to him travelling beyond the very boundaries of the universe itself where he glimpse...what...we don't know (yet) but it was profound.
Now who's to say these experiences didn't have the same or greater affect on Jan as his episode in the caves? Moreover, since rescuing his team-mates, Jan was flung thru time and space back to the beginning of the universe they found themselves in.
What is experience but immersion in time? The flow of events and facts around us that mould and shape our personality, emotions and beliefs.
What followed was a billion years of experiences, a billion years of erosion of belief, moulding of personality, shaping of convictions. In a word. Change.
Is it no wonder that our open-minded, adaptable, malleable Jan would change? And who's to say that change would be for the good? Odds are he's going to be severely unstable, mentally unbalanced by countless millennia of loneliness.
Given he has the ability (an ability he has ample time to hone and develop) to manipulate the building blocks of life itself, who's to say he wouldn't develop a God complex along the way.
I agree the Jan before he was lost wouldn't do what the Progenitor did, and hopefully we showed just how great he could be in those early issue, but what about a Jan eroded, re-sculpture and redefined by a period of time so extreme it's the stuff of comicbooks! A Jan that underwent countless physical changes to his body over the centuries- reforming himself atom by atom to adapt to his new existence and power levels.
That's why I say Jan Arrah isn't the Progenitor
That was the premise, the starting point for the story that led to Jan Arrah becoming the Progenitor.
I know it's a paradox but it works for me.
We believe the story has merit. Merit based on character and dramatic potential.
Love it or loath don't deny it. It certainly has made things interesting!
I hope this has been of some help to you guys, at worst, it may have given you a glimpse of how we arrived at 'A Billion Years of Solitude' and it's repercussions.
I know I haven't answered a fraction of your comments but will try to get to specific points over the next few days!
Thanks for listening
Cheers Andy
"...for time brings not decay. Time brings not death. Time brings Transmutation... ...Time lifts us to the next state..." Old Trommite prayer.. Posted by Jerry on :
I agreed with everything Andy said back at the time. I was convinced that they had created a clean slate, and the Legion could move forward with fresh, exciting stories, and that the reboot would no longer be just about retelling Adventure era stories from a modern perspective. I honestly believed at the end of Legion Lost that the team was at the dawn of a new great era. Sadly, it didn't turn out that way. I guess there is plenty of blame to go around. Legion Worlds was a fun and interesting mini, but in hindsight, it probably absorbed some of the momentum of the fresh start. The new ongoing started off with a bang. Lots of excitement in the way the team returned and reformed. However, the bizarre evolutionary science that was used to explain the terraforms damaged the credibility of both the story and the writers. Dan and Andy were supposed to be premier science fiction writers. I didn’t look at them that way after the first storyline. One of the biggest mistakes was terraforming Zoe. They didn't seem to understand how popular she was with some readers, and how poorly this change would go over.
Things really picked up for me with the Robotica storyline. Fun and original. I'm not sure what happened with sales during that period, though.
Copiel's departure damaged the book beyond repair. There were talented artists who came after him, but the feel was never quiet right again. Dream Crime ended up being a pretty mediocre storyline, and Foundations was a complete disaster. I suspect that there was a lot of editorial interference by this point, and can't blame Dan and Andy entirely. However, there was some more bizarre science that didn't quite seem to work. Neither Darksied or Superboy was handled properly. Superboy was frankly being handled much better in the Titans, at the time. The comparison hurt the Legion.
The final blow, I think, was Jarth. He seemed to make everyone's skin crawl. New fans and old. Even though I was becoming less satisfied, it still felt that like Dan and Andy were given the shaft by the editors. The way their departure was handled seemed unprofessional and cruel. They deserved a chance to finish up their run with more dignity and clean up some of the plot lines. The disrespect they received translated to disrespect for fans and loyal readers. As such, the Waid Legion started out with a big strike against it from my perspective. The reboot Legion still needs to have their final story told, and I am hopeful that the hinted at "Legion of Three Worlds" business will right that wrong.
[ December 16, 2007, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
By the time Dan and Andy left the series, I had gotten very frustrated with their run. They wrote the Legion as if it were any other superhero comic, ignoring most of the elements that make it special. In particular, they gave way too much exposure to some characters, especially Jazmin, and totally neglected some other characters.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
There's a lot of material in that Lanning post, which I read here for the first time.
He makes a good case for what he did with Jan. Now I'm thinking that my negative reaction wasn't so much that Jan -or any other esteemed, heroic legionnaire - became an evil god after all those years but that such a god, master of creation, could be evil by our human definition.
Perhaps evil is too strong - more of an Old Testament god, who was harsh and vicious but protective of what he wanted to protect. I could have enjoyed Jan as more of a life force god, more in keeping with his personality, although that certainly would have been much less dramatic.
"A Legion of the now" - I suppose all writers aim for that. Even the retro-Legion currently appearing in Action is upadated, stylistically and story-wise, for today's readers.
I guess we'll never know where DnA would have taken the Legion on their own. That's the sort of Lost Files story I'd really like to read - all the various writers' long-term plot lines, which were dismantled by editors for various reasons.
Posted by Reboot on :
It depends - the way I read it, up to when McAvennie left, DnA's TL stories weren't being editorially driven - everything was spinning out of their earlier work. Dream Crime may or may not have been "Jemasized", but the core of the story still stems from their earlier stuff from Lost, LW4, LW5 and the fall-out from Robotica, and TL25 follows up on Brande's "really BE a Legion" from TL3 and the Mekt subplot from LW2 and TL3.
Then it all goes to hell, as EVERYTHING gets dropped with TL26 under what seems to be editorial diktat to focus on Superboy and use (a real) Darkseid. Given that they'd been mentioning Valor a few times (LW1, TL4-8), I can well believe they'd intended to "out" M'Onel and that was badly grafted onto the Superboy aspects of Foundations.
And, of course, after that there's the Giffen one-shot, where he co-writes, and a two-parter of which part 2 is one huge fight scene to sweep the Credo off the page and tie up Jarth's issues. And then that was it, as they were cut three issues earlier than they asked for to run out the series with an inventory issue and Simone's subpar four-parter.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
To me, the essence of postboot Jan (and this is true of other versions of the character to a certain extent as well) isn't so much the notion of "change" but a kind of indecisiveness. There's quite a bit of Hamlet in him. He has this incredible power to effect change but no real notion of what to do with it. He lacks a notion of progress or of ends beyond short term goals. He worships change for the sake of change, but seems unwilling to take the initiative in really directing that change to any genuine purpose beyond the satisfaction of his momentary whims.
The curious thing about the whole Progenitor storyline is that in all the millenia that he exists in the other galaxy, he never once takes that 'next step in evolution' that once fascinated him so much. As I recall, it's not clear whether he uses his powers to sustain himself over the millenia or if his longevity is a side-effect of his trip outside of time, but the fact is that he seems to be, despite his insistence on change as fundamental, stagnated. I think a much more powerful ending to the storyline would've been the Legionnaires either convincing him to or assisting him to commit suicide, rather than the somewhat unrealistic idea of Garth's sacrifice to kill him (which mostly came off as a re-write of older stories).
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
Ugh. The more folks try to give Jan some power-centered personality, the more they screw him up. The ending of Legion Lost was when I started just marking time before another reboot (and it seemed like DnA did too, after a while). Alas, the new one isn't any better.
Posted by Jerry on :
Preboot or reboot, Jan never really dealt with the destruction of his home planet realistically. For years I kept a fantasy storyline in my head where Jan entered a serious long term gay relationship, and dealt with the reality of procreation with or without his partner. It seems natural as the last survivor of his planet, he would want to be a father and carry on his race. What means would the 30th/31st century have afforded him for being a father while being in a gay relationship? It would have made an interesting story.
It's not really clear if Trom is still intact, 3boot. We do know Orando is gone, and Shooter appears to have Projectra dealing with the implications early in his run. I'm anxious to see how this is handled.
Posted by stephbarton on :
hmmm, well in Action Comics 850 (or whatever the anniversary issue that Busiek wrote) Jan was mentioned as the sole survivor of Trom. HOWEVER, I have not seen anything in the 3boot to indicate such and really I get the vibe that Trom is still around. So I think that mention in Action Comics is just an editorial slip.
I will say this, I really want to get the remaining issues of Legion Lost (I'm missing 1,2, and 10 and 12). Have the entire DnA run of Legion (actually, have all of Legion) and I too feel it puttered out. (all this is from back issues, wasn't buying Legion at the time).
The Ra's Al Guhl thing started off really well (those first few issues rock) but the evolutionary hyperaxis just doesn't work for me. And in all honesty Robotica reminds me too much of Blight in that the Earth is quickly reduced to nothing. Other problem I have with Robotica is that the rest of the Legion comes off as very ineffectual.
Big disappointment for me is "Foundations" I have the trade and that story does not read well to me at all. Of course, I've been a Kon-El fan from his inception pratically, so seeing him dumped upon as a character doesn't endear me to the arc at all. And Jarth, why is he wearing Element Lad's costume?
Anyways, the bit of Legion Lost I have I really enjoy. It's cool to see those characters shine in such a harsh environment, but reading The Legion it seems the characters became less focused and the storylines felt repetitious.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Legion Lost was the last time I felt that the Legion (and comic books in general) had transcended the perceived limitations of "funny books" and attempted to do something literary, bold, and original.
It WAS shocking what happened to Jan and Garth. But it made sense in the context of the story. In some ways, it honored both characters (yes, even Jan, for the reasons Andy explains, above: Jan's openmindedness, philosophy on change, etc.). It is said that those capable of the greatest good are also capable of the greatest evil. In one sense, Legion Lost bears testimony to this. In another sense, it also invites readers to consider our own notions of "good" and "evil," and how they might differ from someone who has godlike powers. (Those who blame God for evil in the world may want to see things from His perspective; i.e., if this world is not "all there is," then maybe, just maybe, suffering and death aren't so consequential.)
Legion Lost also thrust the Legion into an entirely new direction -- a direction launched by Jan and Garth but without the continuing participation of either. (This, of course, makes the Jarth episode even more deplorable. It completely undercuts the sacrifice both of them made.) It was indeed a bold new direction DnA were charting. It truly is a pity that their vehicle ran out of steam so quickly after Lost.
Posted by Tromium on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: I guess we'll never know where DnA would have taken the Legion on their own. That's the sort of Lost Files story I'd really like to read - all the various writers' long-term plot lines, which were dismantled by editors for various reasons.
We do know something about DnA's long range plans thanks to Chris Batista. Jarth wasn't meant to be permanent. Jan and Garth would have been separated and Jan's pre-Progenitor sentience retrieved from the memory crystals he left behind. Plus, an improved personality for Jan -- more like his preboot self than the wonky space-cadet persona.
In the last three issues DnA never got to write, there was to be a big smackdown fight between Ultra Boy and Timber Wolf -- maybe in resolution of the romantic triangle with Tinya. One would hope so, anyway. Cub would find his (undisclosed) destiny.
Another idea was to have Sensor form a relationship with R'as al Ghul, her "creator".
No word on what they planned for Star Boy, whose death seemed imminent. I suppose they were angling to make him the next Starman. I would have preferred *that* Thom to Johns' deranged cosmic cowboy.
If there was more to it, I forget. Of all the dangling plotlines, Gail Simone's arc touched upon only Tinya and Jo, who got all lovey-dovey again without resolving their underlying marital problems. Jo was sniping at her only a few months later in the Titans/Legion special.
It all underlines one of DnA's greatest weaknesses -- they'd plant seeds and fail to harvest them, or take years to do so. Nevertheless, and despite the hideous Jarth thing, their "Legion Lost" stands on its own as a major contribution to Legion lore. I have no argument with Lanning's remarks about Element Lad vs the Progenitor. The original Jan (pre-Crisis, pre-"religion") may or may not have succumbed to a billion years of loneliness but reboot Jan was of a much more fragile mental makeup almost from the beginning. His fate was not unlike that of Superboy Prime - another innocent child, tragically lost in time and space, who evolved into a crazed demi-god.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by stephbarton: hmmm, well in Action Comics 850 (or whatever the anniversary issue that Busiek wrote) Jan was mentioned as the sole survivor of Trom. HOWEVER, I have not seen anything in the 3boot to indicate such and really I get the vibe that Trom is still around. So I think that mention in Action Comics is just an editorial slip.
There may not actually be index cards detailing all of this stuff, but I'm beginning to think that there should be.
In issue one of the 'threeboot' Theena and Sun Boy talk about Daxam voting about something (UP membership?) and then it's revealed later in Waid's run that the Tromnians killed all of the Daxamites ages ago.
It seems like the threeboot Tromnians are alive and well, and quite possibly a planetful of them living on Daxam as well, since we know that there aren't any Daxamites left living there!
Posted by Fanfic Lady on :
I recently had the pleasure of reading the Legion Lost HC, on loan from the library.
I have to say this one really lived up to all the hype. Easily the best thing by DnA that I've ever read.
One thing that impressed me was how they avoided the traps that so many writers do with a near-omnipotent villain: the Progenitor is not a sad loser who just happens to have godlike powers, nor is his defeat an unconvincing contrivance.
Comparing Legion Lost to Jim Shooter's Korvac Saga in Avengers, it's basically the same story, but LL was done the right way, with scope, spectacle, and cosmic splendor, while KS was done the wrong way, dull, poorly constructed, and all-too-literal.
As far as the controversy, I love Jan, but I was not offended in the least. I agree with everything Andy Lanning said in defense of his and Dan Abnett's creative decisions.
Posted by Candlelight on :
I disagreed with Andy about Jan then, especially after DnA revealed him as the tragic hero of the hologram to Shikari, and I disagree with him now.
But, LOST was still an epic of amazing quality, as was DAMNED.
Coipel was astounding and melded with the dark stories that DnA wrote and the 3 of them created the beautiful Shikari and her people.
But the Jan as the Progenitor and killer of Monstress? Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
I choose to believe that the Jan who became the Progenitor had become warped, twisted and changed by his long absence. He used to be a hero, but time... eons and eons of time... changes things, and power - like the extreme power he exhibited - corrupts.
I agree that Lost was a wonderful story, and its immediate fallout was dealt with well. After that... I wish DNA would reveal more of their plans. I think the Credo storyline could have been epic.
quote:Originally posted by Tromium: We do know something about DnA's long range plans thanks to Chris Batista. Jarth wasn't meant to be permanent. Jan and Garth would have been separated and Jan's pre-Progenitor sentience retrieved from the memory crystals he left behind. Plus, an improved personality for Jan -- more like his preboot self than the wonky space-cadet persona.
Interesting. Not sure I approve of both Jan and Garth returning (Garth's was done well, but Jan's return - wow, drama!). It would have to have been done very well.
I also think the Credo story would have had awesome moments for both Gates and Kinetix. Their teleporation and Hypertaxis-fueled powers would be perfect for taking on Singularity and restoring Jarth. Who knows, we may have been scheduled to have seen the return of normal Zoe then...
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: [QB] Andy Lanning, originally posted February 19, 2001 06:31 PM: First up I've emailed Tsarin privately and hope to try to coax Tsarin back onto the boards and into the discussion once more. I think he's almost willing to give it another shot, at the very least he's committed himself to reply to your posts on his 'Calling the Role' thread
It's strange to realize that without the couple of emails that Andy Lanning sent mentioned here, I never would've participated here on Legion World. So, thanks to Mr. Lanning for the many hours of fun and creativity and community I've experienced here.
It all made me look a right drama queen, but I really was 'walking away' till Andy Lanning reached out to me.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
In fact, here's a tidbit for you, we initially, in the preplanning stages, toyed with the idea of Garth being the illusionary character but went for Tinya as we thought the possible romantic triangle and guilt issues for the protagonists were too irresistible! In fact the whole thing has left us with innumerable dramatic possibilities that we're going to have a great time exploring in upcoming issues).![[Razz]](tongue.gif)