Just mentioned at the Doom Patrol message board at DC Boards. And I quote:
quote: Legion annual. It's already a done deal.
K-
Since I think the book fell horribly from #1 to #3, it's now a VERY happy moment for me. Hopefully, it will be plotted by Keith too.
Posted by KryptonKid on :
Could it be that the old gang is getting back together?
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Oh God. He's come back to cut Dawny's wings off again!
Posted by Power Boy on :
can he DRAW it too!!!!!!!
<fan boy SQUEEEEE!!!>
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: can he DRAW it too!!!!!!!
<fan boy SQUEEEEE!!!>
It looks like: Keith is doing Doom Patrol #16 entirely and has pencilled part of Booster Gold, and did an amazing Mad Hatter one-shot. Said doing artwork bit him again, so it sounds very much like he will be drawing this one. And co-plotting???
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Instead of blowing the Earth... how about Earth Man?
Posted by Power Boy on :
or perhaps no 'Earth' Man on the cover.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
The Subs! There was some mention in the Paul Levitz spotlight panel at Comicon about Keith possibly doing something on the Subs.
Posted by MLLASH on :
This news is love for this old Giff-fan.
HIs style has mutated a smidge more (as BOOSTER GOLD 34 shows) but I still enjoy it.
Posted by stuorstew on :
This is good news indeed and will hopefully lead to more collaborations in the future.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Artwise aside, I also feel his presence as a co-plotter can only benefit Levitz.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
This is great news! I hope its a Levitz/Giffen collaberation, with Keith co-plotting and doing pencils & layouts.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
Posted by MLLASH on :
Probably not. There's a bunch of people who don't care for Giffen. I'm sure they will be showing up soon. Posted by MLLASH on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: The Subs! There was some mention in the Paul Levitz spotlight panel at Comicon about Keith possibly doing something on the Subs.
OH LORDY, please bring back my gal Drura done by Keith Giffen!!!!
Posted by Abin Quank on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Probably not. There's a bunch of people who don't care for Giffen. I'm sure they will be showing up soon.
For LSH only my take is:
Giffen WITH Levitz = Awesome
Giffen WITHOUT Levitz = Major Suckitude
JMHO
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
its great that there's even going to BE an LSH annual!
[ July 29, 2010, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Gorilla Nebula ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Yeah, that's true! When was the last one?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The Legends of the Dead Earth stuff, right?
Posted by Set on :
I loved his art, back in the day, then he went all blocky face and jackets-to-hide-the-lack-of-bodies (which, granted, must have saved him hours, not having draw anything but jackets, legs and a bunch of identical heads), and I was not so impressed.
But, as Gorilla Nebula says, it's great just to have an annual, and I'd be thrilled if it was in the animated style, let alone in Giffen's blockheaded purse-lipped 'Lego Legion' style.
As long as he doesn't pointlessly ressurect and kill Val again. Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
The Annual would be the best time ever for a 6 page back-up that very clearly defines the Legion timeline but yet leaves tons of room for fan interpretation and online arguing!
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: [QB]As long as he doesn't pointlessly resurrect and kill Val again.
The LSH Annual will be titled "The Return of Karate Kid".
Oops, it's actually titled "The REBURN of Karate Kid". There will also be a variant cover of the climactic scene in 3-D, since at least that hasn't been done yet ...
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I think the last thing Giffen did on Legion was that story with Bouncing Boy and Cub and I thought it was pretty awful.
I'm sure it did save him lots of time hiding everybody's faces in black shadow and repeating the same panels over and over on his 9 panel grid.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I think the last thing Giffen did on Legion was that story with Bouncing Boy and Cub and I thought it was pretty awful.
I'm sure it did save him lots of time hiding everybody's faces in black shadow and repeating the same panels over and over on his 9 panel grid.
I loved the art, but thought the story was pretty dull and silly, as was most of the Reboot. He didn't write it though.
And I love blocky art Giffen. But that's because I like more artistic material and he was the pace supreme at that period. Most people seem to forget how incredible his storytelling capabiliities were, especially with such constrained board.
Posted by MLLASH on :
The only Giffen art style I haven't liked is 'abstract-squiggles Giffen', which he used on TRENCHER and also on a couple pages during TMK featuring the SW6 and McCauley.
In Booster Gold 34, his pages are not blocky and shadowy at all. They are light but more cartoony, kinda like the Ambush Bug minis with thinner inks.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
While I like the synergy of Levitz/Giffen, I do not like his artwork since well before Omen and the Prophet.
The artwork he did on that Legends cover made me cringe.
Posted by Power Boy on :
BIG Giffen fan here. BIG. HUGE.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
All criticism aside, if Levitz and Giffen can make lightning strike again (their first Legion Annual #1 was amazing) then I will shut up, never criticize Giffen again and wear a pink nellie hat...
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
I'm with you! NO GIFFEN PLEASE!!! Ya, he used to be good but that hasn't been the case, in my opinion of coarse, for a loooooong time! His work these days is hideous ... and that's being positive, seriously. If Giffen draws the Legion Annual I may not buy it at all.
P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
[ July 29, 2010, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: future king ]
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
Indeed not!
This isn't 80s Giffen. I think he's capable of doing layouts, but I don't want to see full pencils.
His writing doesn't do much for me either.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
I am looking forward to this. Should be a blast!!
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
His writing I enjoy.
His art, not so much.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by future king: P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
Er, I honestly think it's a decent cover, personally. I know it hasn't been a consensus favorite, but don't presume everyone agrees with you. Posted by Jerry on :
I'm looking forward to it, as well. Giffen should always be welcome at the Legion table, in my opinion. He's contributed so much to the team and its history. I'll always be interested in whatever he has to say, write, and draw about the Legion.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
Never liked his art, but I'd have to say if he was to draw it, I'd be okay with him using his GDS style. I can't stand what he does these days artwise. His writing is fine by me, as long as he stops killing Karate Kid off every few years...
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king: P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
Er, I honestly think it's a decent cover, personally. I know it hasn't been a consensus favorite, but don't presume everyone agrees with you.
Not presuming anything there CT ... I know better than that. It is my opinion alone. Period. I hate the art, you like the art, that's fine.
No analysis of my intentions is necessary, thank you very much.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
I loved the Giffen artwork around Legion Annual 1 and the GDS but it went downhill rapidly after that and by Magic Wars sucked. His artwork on 5YL was IMHO some of the worst art ever to be published in comics.
If Giffen comes back then it should be art consistent with the current Legion ie like he did in the early 80s.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Ted McKeever's final few issues of DOOM PATROL during Rachel Pollack's run have my vote as worst comicbook art ever published.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: I loved the Giffen artwork around Legion Annual 1 and the GDS but it went downhill rapidly after that and by Magic Wars sucked. His artwork on 5YL was IMHO some of the worst art ever to be published in comics.
If Giffen comes back then it should be art consistent with the current Legion ie like he did in the early 80s.
I agree with what you said about Giffen's art circa the GDS, it was amazing and so refreshing at the time. But by the time the whole Prophet saga was over I was sick of his new shadowy style already (I seriously remember thinking back then "maybe the guy broke his arm or something???") and by the time 5YL rolled around it was honestly too painful to watch for me.
To be fair though, once he hit his true stride in writing the Legion I learned to enjoy and appreciate his storytelling after that.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm... while I'm not really a huge fan of Giffen's 5YL art style (it would've been okay for a story or two, but needed more variation), it's pretty far from being worst art in comics, imo. Heck, it's not even close to be being the worst art in the Legion. Some of those guys who were drawing the reboot when it started to go downhill were just terrible.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Hmm... while I'm not really a huge fan of Giffen's 5YL art style (it would've been okay for a story or two, but needed more variation), it's pretty far from being worst art in comics, imo. Heck, it's not even close to be being the worst art in the Legion. Some of those guys who were drawing the reboot when it started to go downhill were just terrible.
I think there is a misconception of what BAD art means. It's like saying Picasso's art is awful when he clearly dominated so well the technique that he is able to stretch and explore new ways to express art. To say that Ted McKeever or Giffen do bad art is an insult. You may say it's not to your tastes - that's fine. But it is not BAD ART. Bad art is Kevin Sharpe, who is unable to draw a single face expression, who has serious problems with storytelling, who clearly doesn't dominate anatomy. He's that bad. Giffen or McKeever are able to do whatever they want. And both were at the top of the game during those mentioned runs.
Posted by MLLASH on :
I've seen McKeever at the top of his game... and the last 4 or so issues of DOOM PATROL he completely phoned in and will always have my vote for worst published comicbook art.
Posted by Kent on :
Well said, Ric.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
ok i wont talk about the change in style from GDS to OMen and i wont even talk about the Time trapper story art. i'll just leave it as HE LOVES TO KILL KARATE KID, and we could have had KK alive if he wasnt sadistic enough to just kill him again. (by the way he said he would love to kill the new one that was in legion worlds too).
*that's why i dont want him writing for the legion anymore. Not that i didn't love what he contributed to it overal.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by future king:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king: P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
Er, I honestly think it's a decent cover, personally. I know it hasn't been a consensus favorite, but don't presume everyone agrees with you.
Not presuming anything there CT ... I know better than that. It is my opinion alone. Period. I hate the art, you like the art, that's fine.
No analysis of my intentions is necessary, thank you very much.
Well, that's cool, but if a lawyer rests his case, he (or she) generally feels that he has presented the best evidence he could to prove his point. So when you said that, it implied (intended or not) that said piece of artwork was all the proof we would need that Giifen's art is "hideous". That's what I took issue with.
I know Giffen, and specifically his artwork, is controversial and devisive, but he nonetheless does have his fans. I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL.
So please, Giffen haters, keep in mind that different fans have different tastes and that if they disagree with you, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are right and they are wrong.
Respect always.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king: P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
Er, I honestly think it's a decent cover, personally. I know it hasn't been a consensus favorite, but don't presume everyone agrees with you.
Not presuming anything there CT ... I know better than that. It is my opinion alone. Period. I hate the art, you like the art, that's fine.
No analysis of my intentions is necessary, thank you very much.
Well, that's cool, but if a lawyer rests his case, he (or she) generally feels that he has presented the best evidence he could to prove his point. So when you said that, it implied (intended or not) that said piece of artwork was all the proof we would need that Giifen's art is "hideous". That's what I took issue with.
I know Giffen, and specifically his artwork, is controversial and devisive, but he nonetheless does have his fans. I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL.
So please, Giffen haters, keep in mind that different fans have different tastes and that if they disagree with you, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are right and they are wrong.
Respect always.
^That said, Giffen does need to get over his hate for one Mr. Val Armorr!
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
As far as Keith Giffen's art ever since the Omen and Prophet story, I'd much rather see Joe Staton or Steve Ditko return for a Legion story. All three can tell a story with their art, but in my opinion their cartoony style is not really suited for the Legion.
As a co-plotter under Levitz, Giffen shined and had a great chemistry with Paul, and early on his art was pretty good to, still at his best he was no Cockrum, Sherman or Lightle at their best IMO.
I remember kind of being bummed out when he replaced Pat Broderick on the book, But I do doubt Broderick would have had the same passion or impact on the GDS up until the Omen story as Giffen did.
Another thing I remember is when Giffen did that big Legion poster, he said it burned him out and right after that it showed through in his art.
The last thing I remember is when Steve Lightle took over the book from Keith, I was like hell yeah, this is how the Legion should look, and Steve brought the artistic passion back to the book.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I'm actually looking forward to this and hope some of the magic that was the first Legion Annual can be recaptured in this one.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
This is highly speculative, but it could be cool if the new Annual somehow mirrors the earlier one a bit and follows up on Danielle Foccart. We haven't seen her since the TMK/early Legionnaires era have we? And we haven't seen the version that's still in continuity in forever. (She never appeared during the Reboot era, did she?) All I can remember is that she was cured of her Computo infliction. Can anyone clarify her appearances and status post-Annual 1 thru the end of the Baxter era? Also, did she appear at all during Lightning Saga/Superman-LSH/L3W/Adventure backup stories so far that comprise the retroboot?
Posted by Blacula on :
IMO Giffen is like a lot of other creators - hit or miss. His writing has been a lot more miss than hit for me lately though. And his art has been all miss. I think that if that variant Legacies cover had been submitted by anyone who wasn't already an industry name then they would have been shown the door and told to look for a new career. It's just that bad IMO.
I'm still looking forward to the Annual though and loving the fact that we're even getting one. I'm so glad that DC seems to have gone back to it's original format of creating Annuals and all those dumb 'themed' ones seem to be a thing of the past (even though there were a couple of good ones in there too).
Chief Taylor's idea of tying it in with Danielle Foccart is a great one and would be an opportunity to give Jacques some much-needed attention too.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor:
quote:Originally posted by future king: P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
Er, I honestly think it's a decent cover, personally. I know it hasn't been a consensus favorite, but don't presume everyone agrees with you.
Not presuming anything there CT ... I know better than that. It is my opinion alone. Period. I hate the art, you like the art, that's fine.
No analysis of my intentions is necessary, thank you very much.
Well, that's cool, but if a lawyer rests his case, he (or she) generally feels that he has presented the best evidence he could to prove his point. So when you said that, it implied (intended or not) that said piece of artwork was all the proof we would need that Giifen's art is "hideous". That's what I took issue with.
I know Giffen, and specifically his artwork, is controversial and devisive, but he nonetheless does have his fans. I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL.
So please, Giffen haters, keep in mind that different fans have different tastes and that if they disagree with you, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are right and they are wrong.
Respect always.
That goes two ways. Giffen defenders seem happy to insist that they are right.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.
Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.
By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.
Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.
Posted by Dev Em on :
Giffen I do not like...
There was an issue of DCCP with the Creeper that was incomprehensible ro me fronm what I remember.
The Trencher style with the hash marks everywhere.
Giffen I do like...
Everything else.
No artist turns in perfect work every time...none.
Posted by cleome on :
I think Giffen's always been at his best and most consistent so far as page composition goes. His early illustration was handsome but could be stiff and limited in the variety of images. His later work is more fluid and spontaneous looking, but sometimes borders on being incoherent. Some of its mannerisms also get in the way of the faces being as expressive as they could be, as opposed to the forms-- which have a strong sense of gesture that I usually find to be appealing.
Of course, I've always envied his design sense. A good artist should make it look easy to immerse a reader in an environment that doesn't exist but yet has to feel plausible. From what I've seen, that's been a fairly consistent strength of his, too. The costumes have had their ups and downs, but at their best they walk a good line between streamlined and having enough detail to differentiate between one character and the next.
I know a lot of fans disliked his "pocket costume" stage, but it had a paradoxical old-school, pre-superhero feel to it that grew on me eventually.
In any case, I haven't kept up with him lately, so I'll be curious to see where he is now, art-wise.
[ July 31, 2010, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by Dev Em on :
That being said...I am looking forward to this.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm... maybe they'll address the mystery of what happened to the late v3 costumes Giff designed! Posted by LegionFan223 on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
You are not alone. Jwould perfer to never see Giffen do anything Legion related. His reboot issue with Gear and Chuck cleaning Legion World was so horrible!! His 5YL crap is best forgotten. At least there is no KArate Kid for him to kill again, and again.
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by LegionFan223:
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
You are not alone. Jwould perfer to never see Giffen do anything Legion related. His reboot issue with Gear and Chuck cleaning Legion World was so horrible!! His 5YL crap is best forgotten. At least there is no KArate Kid for him to kill again, and again.
See, I think his 5YL stuff with the Bierbaums was some of the best characterization that some of these characters ever had. Plus they introduced several new and memorable characters that I would love to see enter the current continuity. That's not to say that everything they attempted worked perfectly...but it was a lot better than several other era's of Legion comics that we have gotten since then.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by LegionFan223:
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
You are not alone. Jwould perfer to never see Giffen do anything Legion related. His reboot issue with Gear and Chuck cleaning Legion World was so horrible!! His 5YL crap is best forgotten. At least there is no KArate Kid for him to kill again, and again.
Again: Giffen was NOT responsible for the reboot issue of Gear and Chuck. He was just the artist. 5YL, on the other hand, is the best Legion era for me and most of my friends, so it's not crap. Crap is Kevin Sharpe's art. Or Justin Thyme.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Can someone post this infamous Legacies cover that's supposed to be so horrible?
Posted by Dev Em on :
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Kevin Sharpe has his fans, please be civil.
[removed image, since Dev posted it before me]
Solicited here and showing on the main page scroll as well.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
^really not seeing the hate, here. I think it's a pretty decent cover. Posted by MLLASH on :
They need a LOVE button for me to click for this cover. Posted by Chief Taylor on :
It really looks nothing like Giff's prior styles that I can recall. It's got kind of a nice Silver Agey/Bronze Agey vibe to it.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
Heck, it frankly does more for me than any of Jim Lee's LSH variants have so far! Am I that far off the median here?!?!
Posted by cleome on :
It looks all right to me. I mean, I'm not drooling over it but I'm not foaming at the mouth, either.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Except for the kind of goofy looking Superman, I'd say it's okay, but not anything great.
I'd also agree the Jim Lee covers are nothing to go ga-ga over.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: Heck, it frankly does more for me than any of Jim Lee's LSH variants have so far! Am I that far off the median here?!?!
There is no median. I think the Annual cover is incredibly bad (Imra, in particular!), and Jim Lee's covers are beautiful. But opinions on art are always gonna be subjective.
I would, in a second, chose the deliberately distorted and 'toony' art from the cartoon series in a second as 'serious art' over that cover. At least with cartoon art, with their tiny little waists and ankles and wrists, and bulging calves and forearms, the distortions of body proportions are obvious stylistic choices, and consistent within the medium, as opposed to that cover, where Wildfire is all hippalicious, Superboy's leg attaches very strangely to his torso, and Timber Wolf looks stretched-out and slightly deformed. In the case of the cover, the physical malformations don't appear to be any one consistent stylistic choice, but wander all over the place, making me think the only consistent theme is 'deformed.'
But that's just my own perspective. I'm sure Giffen had some unifying theme that I'm missing. There's a faint Kirby feel to it, but it lacks the blocky and bold sense of weight or presence that a Kirby picture would have.
And now I've gone totally off the deep end, referring to Kirby's art as having weight. Next I'll sip my soda and comment on its fruity undertones....
[ July 31, 2010, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
I don't mean to imply that I'm in love with the Legacies cover (not the Annual's cover, Set, which is as-yet unsolicited), but it has a nice nostalgia factor going on with an obvious homage to several past Legion covers in its format. In contrast Lee's covers just haven't grabbed me at all in any way. I'd say that Perez's character-focused L3W were much better and didn't require any of the extra dough that owning Lee's require.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
Cosmic Boy has a Plastino feel to me, while barrel-chested Garth is very Wayne Boring. Wildfire's pose mimics Grell's cover to the 1st tabloid & Superboy reminds me of Staton's cover to S/LSH # 250. Timber Wolf & Imra I don't like at all.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Cosmic Boy has a Plastino feel to me, while barrel-chested Garth is very Wayne Boring. Wildfire's pose mimics Grell's cover to the 1st tabloid & Superboy reminds me of Staton's cover to S/LSH # 250.
See, I knew there had to be some sort of unifying theme going on. The images just seemed too discordant, in notably different styles. If he's picking characteristic images from the past and trying to emulate the styles of those artists, that's a valid technique, even if I'm not nearly experienced enough of a Legion fan to recognize those homages.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that he's going for a "imitate different eras" kind of feel, but I don't think he's being all that successful at it.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
The only picture I really like on that cover is Giffin's Invisible Kid in the lower left hand box.
Posted by Omni Craig on :
Kidding obviously... Seriously, the early "Cockrum-y" Wildfire looks really good. I don't care for the other Legionnaires on the cover though.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: [QUOTE]Again: Giffen was NOT responsible for the reboot issue of Gear and Chuck. He was just the artist.
Okay, so doesn't that make him responsible for the art in that issue? Which was crap, imho.
I don't care for the Legacies cover, but I wouldn't describe it as horrible. I've seen worse.
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Cosmic Boy has a Plastino feel to me, while barrel-chested Garth is very Wayne Boring. Wildfire's pose mimics Grell's cover to the 1st tabloid & Superboy reminds me of Staton's cover to S/LSH # 250. Timber Wolf & Imra I don't like at all.
The awfulness of Timber Wolf and Saturn Girl have distracted me every time I've looked at that cover in the past... but now that you mention it - Cosmic Boy and Lightning Lad don't look too bad really. And I can definitely see there's an homage to earlier artists going on there.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.
Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.
By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.
Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.
I absolutely agree Chief and if you read my comments I always reiterate that my views only reflect my tastes but I appreciate that others have different views. What I object to is that there are people on this board that support Giffen and have desribed me and others as 'wrong', 'insulting' and various other absolutes.
I have an opinion. They have an opinion. Neither is absolute but I feel - and I accept it is a perception - that when someone criticises Giffen they are accused of absoluteism but someone praising Giffen can say what they like.
I have said many times that I believe Giffen's art around the GDS was some of the best in Legion history but when that is compared with the 5YL art it is chalk and cheese and to me the 5YL art is poor. The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom. Some may feel that added to the overall product but in my opinion it greatly detracted from the storytelling. I always accept that this is my opinion but I am neither wrong nor insulting for having it or stating it.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Since judging the quality of anyone's artwork is about 99% subjective, I think we can and should all just infer that an IMHO is intended when any such judgments are made.
IMHO, of course. Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.
Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.
By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.
Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.
I absolutely agree Chief and if you read my comments I always reiterate that my views only reflect my tastes but I appreciate that others have different views. What I object to is that there are people on this board that support Giffen and have desribed me and others as 'wrong', 'insulting' and various other absolutes.
I have an opinion. They have an opinion. Neither is absolute but I feel - and I accept it is a perception - that when someone criticises Giffen they are accused of absoluteism but someone praising Giffen can say what they like.
I have said many times that I believe Giffen's art around the GDS was some of the best in Legion history but when that is compared with the 5YL art it is chalk and cheese and to me the 5YL art is poor. The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom. Some may feel that added to the overall product but in my opinion it greatly detracted from the storytelling. I always accept that this is my opinion but I am neither wrong nor insulting for having it or stating it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response SAL!
I'm gonna go ahead and concede that I may have overreacted to the original post by Future King. Looking back on it, I think that the wording was not as harsh as I originally thought it was. I see he edited it at some point, but I'll assume his edit didn't really change anything in such a way as to alter what he said.
I think I may have been overly sensitive, especially since I don't see what's so horrible about the Legacies cover like so many others. Also, together and seperately, Levitz and Giffen have produced my absolute favorite Legion stories, the ones that made me into such a hardcore fan. The era that began when Paul returned to the Legion as regular writer in the 280s of Volume 2 all the way through Zero Hour is "my" Legion, even with some rough patches here and there (particularly the last year of Volume Three and that last year leading up to Zero Hour).
I greatly respect what Giffen did with and without Levitz during that long time frame. So it hurts when someone refers to his art as "hideous" or even when only the pre-Omen & Prophet stuff is revered. In my mind LSH Vol. 4, issues 1-38/TMK may be the most perfect and definitive set of comics out of that whole Levitz/Giffen era.
Still, I'm not immune to Giffen criticism. He's done lots of projects over the years, writing and artwise, that have just caused me to scratch my head. Among those are certainly those really out-there costume redesigns he did at the end of Levitz's run on Volume Three. I personally thought and still think that most, if not all of those, are among the ugliest costumes I've ever seen!
I commented elsewhere that I've been guilty of similar creator-bashing at times, particularly with easy targets like Rob Liefeld and Judd Winick who always seem fashionable to lambast.
But this being a Legion-centric board, there are certain creators who've had definitive influences on the Legion. No matter where in the spectrum you fall, there's no denying Giffen is one of those. So, of course, when one of those is as controversial as Giffen is (possibly THE most controversial Legion creator?), things may get heated and words phrased or taken in such a way as to offend somebody somewhere.
In this case I went a little too far, though I do think the tone of my responses never went into uncivil territory.I think we all need to keep in mind that when a subject as sensitive as Giffen comes up here, being a little more well-rounded and speaking less in absolutes is always a good idea.
But just for the record: I like the Legacies cover pretty well and damn well look forward to the Annual whenever it comes out!
[ August 01, 2010, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Chief Taylor ]
Posted by Ricardo on :
Ok, my take:
1) Cover of Legacies: It should be pointed out that it's a Giffen-Milgrom job, and Milgrom does reduce Giffen's art to a more basic line, as compared to Al Gordon, for instance. Also, there is a huge chance Giffen was doing a Cockrun homage. So it's all good to me in that respect. 2) Art CAN be discussed, it's not always a matter of taste. Sure, I can prefer Giffen's blocky art to any Jim Lee (and I do), however, there is no point in denying that Jim Lee is a helluva artist. He KNOWS art. He knows proportions, he understands pacing, storytelling and drama. When I say Kevin Sharpe is a bad artist, it is not personal or about taste: he really has a lot to catch up on BASICS. 3) When SILVER AGE LAD says Giffen's art during 5YL was poor, it doesn't make sense: you can say it is complicated, artsy, but POOR. Each page was very meticulously worked on. It WAS complicated (and I agree), but it was always DELIBERATE. There is not a poor issue of 5YL - it is undeniable that Giffen worked like hell on it, there was always a LOT going on. In fact, each issue packs a year or more of Geoff Johns' writing. Again: people may not like the style or the tone (agreed) but to call it poor or 'bad art' is just wrong.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: Ok, my take:
3) When SILVER AGE LAD says Giffen's art during 5YL was poor, it doesn't make sense: you can say it is complicated, artsy, but POOR. Each page was very meticulously worked on. It WAS complicated (and I agree), but it was always DELIBERATE. There is not a poor issue of 5YL - it is undeniable that Giffen worked like hell on it, there was always a LOT going on. In fact, each issue packs a year or more of Geoff Johns' writing. Again: people may not like the style or the tone (agreed) but to call it poor or 'bad art' is just wrong.
Sorry Ricardo but I am not wrong. I have an opinion which you may not agree with but that doesn't make you right and me wrong. For me the artwork during 5YL greatly detracted from some very good storylines. Comic art is supposed to tell a story - if it does not then it is poor IMHO.
Again IMHO, complicated and deliberate do not = good, they = complicated and deliberate, which can be good, bad or indifferent dependining on context. Just because Giffen is a capable artist - which he undoubtedly is - does not mean that anything he does is good, surely? Artist like the rest of us get lazy, have rushed deadlines or have bad periods. IMHO 5YL was a bad period. You may disagree and that is what free thinking is all about. Neither of us are 'right' or 'wrong' we simply have differing opinions.
Posted by Kent on :
KG's 5YL art did tell a story, and told it well - it was not poor art, even if it was to your disliking, SA Lad.
You of course are free to dislike it. But any shortfall was/is not inherently in the art itself, merely in the interpretation/aesthetic of anyone who does not like it.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I'm not really sure why you guys are arguing about whether someone can call someone's art poor or not.
It's their opinion. It's not like anyone is saying "Nightcrawler is an asshole." They are saying "Nightcrawler's art is poor." Which is a valid opinion.
You guys need to chill out a bit here. Please.
Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
[ August 02, 2010, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: This is highly speculative, but it could be cool if the new Annual somehow mirrors the earlier one a bit and follows up on Danielle Foccart. We haven't seen her since the TMK/early Legionnaires era have we? And we haven't seen the version that's still in continuity in forever. (She never appeared during the Reboot era, did she?) All I can remember is that she was cured of her Computo infliction. Can anyone clarify her appearances and status post-Annual 1 thru the end of the Baxter era? Also, did she appear at all during Lightning Saga/Superman-LSH/L3W/Adventure backup stories so far that comprise the retroboot?
She was in the reboot but as a little girl or the same age she was when she was first introduced in the legion. Re-read that issue with Both Invisible Kid's fighting on the cover with Charma being the cause...you'll see Danielle.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
As I recall in v3, Brainy removes the Computo matrix from Danielle, which thus allows him to turn Computo into the majordomo for LSH HQ. I can't remember if we actually see her in any of the issues where Jacques is shown visiting his family, however.
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
i'd love to see Danielle (Computo) in the Legion Academy, along with Dragonmage, Catspaw, Kintetix, Monstress, Kid Quantum, etc.
Posted by MLLASH on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
I admit to being a slavish Giff-fan as many know, however I do feel I could state to Keith that I disliked his 'abstract squiggles Trencher period' and that he would probably (hopefully!) take it in good humour...
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
I'd probably be all passive-aggressive about it and only mention how much I liked the Great Darkness Saga era artwork, and then just diplomatically avoid mentioning further.
Then again, I did totally get called out by Francis Manapul after stating that I thought his first few issues of the Legion were gorgeous, and that the quality dropped off sharply soon after, making me think that having a few months of lead-time to polish things gave a strong initial impression that he couldn't keep up with, so, yeah, sometimes I'll shoot my mouth off without checking if someone's a member... Posted by MLLASH on :
I think it's notable that Manapul's style on ADVENTURE and FLASH is very different from his style on LSH.
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
Who knows? Maybe he'd be glad that people are fired up about it, so long as they're not indifferent.
Posted by cleome on :
MLLASH:
quote:I think it's notable that Manapul's style on ADVENTURE and FLASH is very different from his style on LSH.
I like what I've seen of his recent work, but I'm not really a huge fan of the Flash mythos. I'm content to just look at the previews and leave it at that.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH:
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
I admit to being a slavish Giff-fan as many know, however I do feel I could state to Keith that I disliked his 'abstract squiggles Trencher period' and that he would probably (hopefully!) take it in good humour...
I am not a slavish Giffen-fan. I did like his Legion art when he was doing it for Paul Levitz. It was truly amazing stuff. I did not like his art for the 5YL period. I agree with Silver Age Lad in stating that I think his art in that period was poor. Obviously those that liked his art from that period would not think that it is poor.
I would have written the above even if Mr. Giffen was a member here. As a comic book professional, he should know that there are some who won't like his work and think that he is a poor artist. Who knows, he might even look back at his art from that period and muse "What was I thinking?" or he might think "This is the best I've ever done" or something in between.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Seriously, I think the Giff would be cool with honest criticisms... I'd LOVE to see him here one day...!
I do think above all else he is a LSH fan.
He needs to have me run a Facebook Page for him!!!
Posted by Kent on :
my point was: is art itself poor merely because the viewer doesn't like it?
people are saying "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor."
little difference, perhaps - but I would suggest the latter is less likely to tick off people of a different opinion, while the former can be read as if the poster is asserting "that's the way it is, period."
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Seriously, I think the Giff would be cool with honest criticisms... I'd LOVE to see him here one day...!
I do think above all else he is a LSH fan.
He needs to have me run a Facebook Page for him!!!
If you follow him at DC boards, he is probably the most humble artist you can find. There is a guy who absolutely loathes everything he does with Doom Patrol and Giffen loves to have him around (really!). So, yeah, I am quite sure he might be reading what we are writing here (then, maybe, he only writes/reads Legion forum at the DC board) and I wouldn't change a line. Even though I like the more streamlined artwork of recent Booster Gold and Mad Hatter one-shot, for me, his peak was during 5YL.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent: my point was: is art itself poor merely because the viewer doesn't like it?
people are saying "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor."
little difference, perhaps - but I would suggest the latter is less likely to tick off people of a different opinion, while the former can be read as if the poster is asserting "that's the way it is, period."
Exactly. Finding the art poor = opinion. The art is poor = statement based on laws of aesthetics. That's just what I was talking about. Obviously, just because the art is complicated/busy doesn't mean it is good. But I would never consider Bill Sienkewicz art as bad just because it is complicated, for instance. It's undeniable he masters composition, tracing etc. It may not be to one's taste? Definitely. So, Nightcrawler, I really wasn't trying to tick anyone off, just stating there is a huge difference between liking something and commanding of art.
Posted by Power Boy on :
KG is my baby daddy.
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: But I would never consider Bill Sienkewicz art as bad just because it is complicated, for instance. It's undeniable he masters composition, tracing etc. It may not be to one's taste? Definitely.
I'm glad there was no internet around when I was young and first discovered Bill Sienkewicz's art, otherwise I would now be really embarrassed to read the things I would have written about someone who is one of my favourite artists today.
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent: my point was: is art itself poor merely because the viewer doesn't like it?
people are saying "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor."
little difference, perhaps - but I would suggest the latter is less likely to tick off people of a different opinion, while the former can be read as if the poster is asserting "that's the way it is, period."
Except Silver Age Lad gave reasons beyond "I didn't like it" for why he thought the art was poor. Specifically, "The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom." and "For me the artwork during 5YL greatly detracted from some very good storylines. Comic art is supposed to tell a story - if it does not then it is poor IMHO." And note that SAL phrases this as his opinion. "IMHO" & "for me".
Even still, would it be fair to say that you don't find the art to be poor, mostly because you like it?
You maybe ticked off because it is being said "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor", but in the same way when it is said "the art wasn't poor" instead of "I didn't find the art poor" it will tick people off. And in a way, saying "the art wasn't poor" to someone who just said "the art was poor IMHO" is to discount/invalidate their opinion.
[ August 03, 2010, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Quislet, Esq. ]
Posted by SharkLad on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: KG is my baby daddy.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: [snip]
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
Who knows? Maybe he'd be glad that people are fired up about it, so long as they're not indifferent.
I agree. I think he'd appreciate the honesty about his craft. I wouldn't hold back if Keith was on here ... I didn't with Francis.
I enjoyed Giffen's work when he first came to the Legion but once he drastically changed his style then I started to lose interest. That's it.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I think this argument should be put to rest once and for all, but my last two cents worth on it is this:
I'm quite sure Keith Giffen knew that a lot of fans would be displeased when he changed his artistic style drastically after the Great Darkness Saga, and again in 5YL, and he chose to do it anyway, knowing full well it would cause an outcry from the readers. I'm quite sure he's heard all these criticisms before and was not surprised by them, so I don't think he'd be surprised to read them again today.
p.s. I think I even got a letter published, in which I complained about Giffen's new style back in the day, but don't ask me what issue.
[ August 03, 2010, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: jimgallagher ]
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
the cover is in a style that is not what "we" expect in a legion cover. think of Darwyn Cooke for example. having said that, i don't like it either. it doesn't convey future. it doesn't make me want to buy the issue. it mostly comes of as a nostalgia, tongue-in-cheek kind of thing. not a "must-buy". not exciting. not happening. something for the old legion fans, but a wink wink to the cool nu kids. ick.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
What? Think Darwyn Cooke doing an LSH cover?
Don't get my hopes up! Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I learned recently that many people dislike Jack Kirby's artwork. It was at that point that I realized, many people don't have my refined tastes in art. Same goes for the Giffen conversation.
While I'm personally excited about Giffen returning, I think something a lot of us might agree on is that there is a genuine sense that many of Legion history's best creators are looking to return to the fold. There are rumors of Jim Sherman also doing a story with Paul.
In an era where continuity is a topic that makes fans baby-making areas shrivel up and die, it's nice to know that creators who truly *know* the Legion are getting back involved. On the opposite side and equally nice, is that Levitz is intent to push forward with a sense of 'new', in new situations, stories and characters and not focus on continuity itself. I'm glad for that dynamic: people who know the franchise but don't seem intent on focusing soley on the minutae of the past.
The idea that we're having a Legion Annual again is terrific. Levitz always wrote great annuals. Maybe Eryk, Lardy, myself and others heads will explode if Darwyn Cooke could do Annual #2! Jim Lee could do the back-up because it would take a year to get 8 pages out of him.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Quislet, Esq.:
quote:Originally posted by Kent: my point was: is art itself poor merely because the viewer doesn't like it?
people are saying "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor."
little difference, perhaps - but I would suggest the latter is less likely to tick off people of a different opinion, while the former can be read as if the poster is asserting "that's the way it is, period."
Except Silver Age Lad gave reasons beyond "I didn't like it" for why he thought the art was poor. Specifically, "The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom." and "For me the artwork during 5YL greatly detracted from some very good storylines. Comic art is supposed to tell a story - if it does not then it is poor IMHO." And note that SAL phrases this as his opinion. "IMHO" & "for me".
Even still, would it be fair to say that you don't find the art to be poor, mostly because you like it?
You maybe ticked off because it is being said "the art is poor" rather than "I found the art poor", but in the same way when it is said "the art wasn't poor" instead of "I didn't find the art poor" it will tick people off. And in a way, saying "the art wasn't poor" to someone who just said "the art was poor IMHO" is to discount/invalidate their opinion.
bad argument, counsellor.
this approach seems to suggest that there are only two approaches, and they automatically carry equal weight. Not finding the art poor does not mean one liked the art; one could find it mediocre - just not poor.
Moreover, someone bashing another's favorite artist does not seem to be comparable with someone else defending an artist one dislikes. Let's say I hypothetically hate the work of an artist named Lief Robfeld. If you come along and say Robfeld's work isn't that bad, am I likely to get offended? Or merely assume you have different/odd/no taste?
It seems to me it would take such a severe hate-on for anyone to really get miffed that suggesting a disliked artist's work "isn't that bad" would trigger the same reaction as someone dissing an artist actually liked.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:As I recall in v3, Brainy removes the Computo matrix from Danielle, which thus allows him to turn Computo into the majordomo for LSH HQ. I can't remember if we actually see her in any of the issues where Jacques is shown visiting his family, however.
she's shown in the issue where the emerald empress appears again searching for answers for immortality. Danielle is shown playing with some other kids then when jacques appears she wants to spend time with him alone and complains about it to the other children who want to monopolize his time (cause he's a famous legionnaire).
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
I owe Mr. Giffen an apology. I shouldn't have been so rude.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Are you being sarcastic? Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
No.
Posted by future king on :
Has anyone heard anything more about the annual? Any cover solicits yet? I wonder if it will come out any sooner than the one year anniversary of the new book.
Posted by rouge on :
The Empress' outfit is very Kirby-esque. Can anyone tell who drew this? It's a radical change if it's Keith Giffen.
Posted by Blacula on :
OMG! I LOVE that cover!
I wonder who the artist is? It looks familiar but I can't place it. I'd love it if it is Giffen since that'll mean he's still capable of drawing in a less 'out-there', stylistic style than what we've seen from him over the last few years.
Plus - a "NEW" Emerald Empress? Does that mean the EE we've been seeing since Lo3W wasn't Sarya? Or is Paul ret-conning those appeances away or something? Would love to see a Cera Kesh appearance in all this.
Interesting choice of Legionnaires too. I wonder if the new EE won't be the only thing 'coming out' of this issue?
Posted by cleome on :
At the very least, it looks like there'll finally be a spotlight on somebody other than The Big Four. Posted by doublechinner on :
SQEEEEEE.
OK, THIS Empress LOOKS Imperial. And I feel SO sorry for any artist that has to draw this outfit in the future. She has a cape crinoline, for Brand's sake! (I'm sure there's a proper term for that thingie, but "cape crinoline" was best I could do.) And look out boys. She's got a whip, and she knows how to use it.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
I am just guessing, but I would say the cover pencils are from Giffen, with an inker I can't pin down.
Giffen has dabbled with Kirbyesque style before (which I like). Compare this cover to the Legends cover of the Legion. The style looks similar to me.
Posted by brigort on :
It's Giffen. To quote the source.."He's mixing Kirby with his '90s Legion style and a modern sensibility."
This is gonna be soooo good.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Like I said, I owe him an apology.
Posted by ultrajo on :
Magneto better watch out. Lorna Dane is not happy. Posted by MLLASH on :
It's most assuredely Giffen's art; he does Kirby almost as well as Kirby himself. Proof of this can be seen in his 70s runs on CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN and THE DEFENDERS.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
She's Magneto's daughter. When was she EVER happy?
Posted by Crymsun on :
Love Love Love that cover! I love the Keith's ever-evolving styles. I recently re-read the 5 year later era, and his style there has really grown on me. I hated it at first, but now looking back, I have much love for it.
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
Most interesting quote? "Keith and I working together and then Keith with other collaborators has played with the Shrinking Violet and Lightning Lass characters and their relationship a certain amount, and as you can see from the cover, they're back in the forefront of this story. They kind of get their glorious moment in the process, which is nice."
'Glorious moment'? Are Paul and Keith going to (re)establish Vi and Ayla as a lesbian couple? Dare we hope?
Also, the context in which they speak of the Emerald Empress here makes it seems like this is Sarya. Wasn't it specified elsewhere that this is a NEW Empress? Am I misreading this part of the interview?
Thoughts?
Posted by Set on :
Not in love with seeing Vi and Ayla on leashes, but it's a dramatic cover, that's for sure!
Posted by future king on :
I'm going to go against the majority vote ( at least I think I'm in the minority) and hope that Ayla stays with Brin instead. It was cool to have Vi be with Ayla for a while there, but I kinda missed the classic relationship Ayla had with Brin ... I always felt she was a bit harsh and unforgiving of him back when she was going through that bit of a rough time in her personal life. Let's face it, the guy was crushed after she dumped him.
P.S. I'm also a romantic softy type myself, one who hates most kinds of change ... especially involving the Legion I grew up with as a kid. So there! Posted by cleome on :
Huh. I thought Brin deserved the dumping, myself. He's pretty much my nominee for Most Exasperating Legionnaire, at least in that incarnation.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by future king:
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: Am I the only one not looking forward to this?
I'm with you! NO GIFFEN PLEASE!!! Ya, he used to be good but that hasn't been the case, in my opinion of coarse, for a loooooong time! His work these days is hideous ... and that's being positive, seriously. If Giffen draws the Legion Annual I may not buy it at all.
P.S. Just look at the variant cover for DC Universe Legacies #6 ... I rest my case.
*snacking on crow as I type...*
Well, I have to counter my first gut feeling of probably not enjoying Giffen's upcoming annual by saying that based on the Emerald Empress cover that recently came out I will definately be buying this book! I liked what I saw (so much better than the Legacies cover) and I'm hoping the interior artwork is as equally impressive. I have a good feeling it will be though. His ever-evolving art style has really struck a positive nerve with me this time. Ladies and gentlemen I give you the new Jack Kirby! (well, sort of...) Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by future king: I'm going to go against the majority vote ( at least I think I'm in the minority) and hope that Ayla stays with Brin instead. It was cool to have Vi be with Ayla for a while there, but I kinda missed the classic relationship Ayla had with Brin ... I always felt she was a bit harsh and unforgiving of him back when she was going through that bit of a rough time in her personal life. Let's face it, the guy was crushed after she dumped him.
P.S. I'm also a romantic softy type myself, one who hates most kinds of change ... especially involving the Legion I grew up with as a kid. So there!
It's 1000 years in the future, with people from different planets. Why not a three way open relationship.
Posted by cleome on :
The kids nowadays call that an "OT3," Dev.
[refuses to share own OT3 until after at least three more beers]
Posted by Chief Taylor on :
quote:Originally posted by Dev Em:
quote:Originally posted by future king: I'm going to go against the majority vote ( at least I think I'm in the minority) and hope that Ayla stays with Brin instead. It was cool to have Vi be with Ayla for a while there, but I kinda missed the classic relationship Ayla had with Brin ... I always felt she was a bit harsh and unforgiving of him back when she was going through that bit of a rough time in her personal life. Let's face it, the guy was crushed after she dumped him.
P.S. I'm also a romantic softy type myself, one who hates most kinds of change ... especially involving the Legion I grew up with as a kid. So there!
It's 1000 years in the future, with people from different planets. Why not a three way open relationship.
Sounds...sexy! Posted by lil'rhino on :
The Annual's release date has been changed to January 12, 2011.
Posted by Blacula on :
NOooooo... That's so far away!
(Unless that date has been brought forward from the previous release date, in which case, um, Yay!)
Posted by Candlelight on :
An alpha male might like to have two females in a 3 way relationship, but I think it would only really work for him if he had relationships with both females in a 3som.
But, that would be for Earth humans, and none of these are actually from Earth, but rather, from Earth colonies (still?) that have changed genetically, rather drastically.
Just looking at how they've been portrayed over the years, Ayla might be comfortable with an alpha male and alpha female as mates, but if she is, why would she object to Imra? She wouldn't HAVE to share in her brother, as well, but just staying with Imra and Brin. And if Ayla were like that, why would Garth care if Imra 'coupled' with another couple, since he'd most likely have the same moral set as the rest of the Winathians?
Salu, I don't know about, because she was made into a lesbian by a terrible experience and a neglectful male relationship. I've seen quite a few of those 'changes' with women over the years. A lot of them that I've known have been fairly unstable in their orientation.
The whole thing is a little more complicated than just going to bed with each other, really. If you want it to make sense, anyway.
[ December 02, 2010, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Candlelight ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: Salu, I don't know about, because she was made into a lesbian by a terrible experience and a neglectful male relationship. I've seen quite a few of those 'changes' with women over the years. A lot of them that I've known have been fairly unstable in their orientation.
I don't think that I can even begin to express how OFFENSIVE I find that. No One is 'made into a Lesbian' by any experience. They either are atracted to one gender, or the other, or both. Salu was obviously atracted to both and ended up with Ayla, but could have just as easily ended up with another guy if one had been emotionally close to her at the time. The same goes for Ayla. Your attitude about the fictional characters and the real-life women you briefly mentioned is VERY disturbing. And disrespectful. And WRONG.
Posted by MLLASH on :
But the experiences she cites ARE what we have "on paper"/in print that are the events that happened prior to Salu and Ayla's relationship.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
Those experiences happened, but they did not 'make' her a lesbian. She had those experiences, she appearently was atracted to females as well as males and she was close to Ayla who was also appearently atracted to females as well as males. The closeness developed into something more and they ended up in a relationship together. I also notice that you didn't mention that Candlelight also spoke of "quite a few of those 'changes' with women over the years" that presumably refferences REAL women and not fictional characters. Further stated was "A lot of them that I've known have been fairly unstable in their orientation". How is Candlelight qualified to make this determintion? I hate to use such terms, but this looks like an obvious case of stupidity and bigotry from where I am reading.
Posted by MLLASH on :
You are reading too much into her words I think, reading things that she isn't saying.
And I don't think you call this an obvious case of anything other than someone typing in and posting observences she has made.
Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: But the experiences she cites ARE what we have "on paper"/in print that are the events that happened prior to Salu and Ayla's relationship.
Agreed.
I was reading these stories as they first came out (ignore pun). As I understand it, Levitz did not intend to put Ayla and Vi in a relationship, but along with many other readers at the time, that's how I interpreted it. The trauma Vi went through enabled her to find her strength and go to the other end of the emotional spectrum becoming very aggressive. Vi had been a victim of the "Luornu Syndrome" in which she pined for an unavailable guy to notice her. I don't think that Duplicate Boy's (or Ayla's) gender had anything to do with it. She was in a relationship that wasn't working so she tossed it. It was only later that I found that many fans had seen these events as Vi "turning" gay. As a gay guy perhaps it was unrealistically optimistic to assume that 1,000 years from now sexual compartmentalism would not still have a social function; however, I could understand how in the present people (readers) might tend to do that. Attitudes may have changed since then, but those original impressions still linger. So be it. The social evolution that has occurred since then has astounded me and filled me with gratitude, even more so because it shows no sign of stopping until equality has been realized. I the years that I have been a member of Legion World I have never felt anything but support for me, my sexuality, and how I choose to identify myself. Legion World has more than earned the benefit of the doubt if the wording of an opinion here initially rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps the writers of 30 years ago presented a story in a way that was open to missinterpretation. Perhaps readers at the time took or expressed things in a manner less than politically correct. It's ok for people today to comment on these, or even to reiterate them. It is also ok for people to tell of their experiences, so long as they don't present them as evidence, but merely as examples of a viewpoint. I read Candlelight's comment of "A lot of them that I've known have been fairly unstable in their orientation" as she's known people who identify themselves a lesbians who have also dated men. I would find that a little confusing too! I have had trysts with guys who called themselves straight. So I call them straight. Go fig. We live in an ever-shrinking world that is trying to become a peaceful, cooperative family. This ain't gonna happen if we can't be comfortable with each other or have to walk on eggshells. We have quite a family going on here on Legion World and I love being a part of it. But for the record: Ayla can date a guy if she wants to, but please, pleeeeease don't let it be Brin!
[ December 02, 2010, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: KryptonKid ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
And just whut's wrong with Brin?
I mean, it's not like he's muh favorite character in tha legion er' nuthin!
Posted by cleome on :
I get that there's more than one way to interpret most relationships in an ongoing narrative, including this one.
Gotta' say, though: "Unstable" is a pretty poor choice, word-wise. Not thrilled with it myself.
Posted by ultrajo on :
DC site now have this listed as a Jan. 19 release date.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by ultrajo: DC site now have this listed as a Jan. 19 release date.
Is this true?? Posted by Dave Hackett on :
It is true. Funny, as Giffen's usually a fast artist. I wonder if Paul's script was late (or changed)?
Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Dave Hackett: It is true. Funny, as Giffen's usually a fast artist. I wonder if Paul's script was late (or changed)?
Story maybe rewritten cuz of the leadership election results?
:planetarychancemachine: Posted by Brody27 on :
Not very professional, is it. A deadline for a one off issue should be met, or an explanation given to the anticipated readers.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
3 weeks late = it's gonna ROCK even more!!
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
quote:Originally posted by KryptonKid:
quote:Originally posted by Dave Hackett: It is true. Funny, as Giffen's usually a fast artist. I wonder if Paul's script was late (or changed)?
Story maybe rewritten cuz of the leadership election results?
When Shrinking Violet won the Legion Leader voting, she couldn't be killed off in the Annual, so the Giffen re-write includes a surprise appearance by Karate Kid just before the climax...
Posted by future king on :
It would be interesting to read the original script that Paul had written. This is all assuming that our theories about him changing the annual's story due to Monel winning the election, and that's why its release date is being pushed back. I think that original script should be saved as a collection piece or something. At the very least it should come out as an "alternate reality" story sometime down the road.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
Posted by Giffen on the DC Comics message boards:
quote: Okay...
My bad here gang... kinda.
My retina decided to detach midway through the job and what with going blind in one eye and optic surgery and what-all... well, do the math.
Just wanted to get it out there because I don't want anyone thinking anyone involved in the book's not pulling for all they're worth.
I guess filing it under s**t happens might seem a bit cavalier but... s**t does indeed happen.
I've been waiting for more than twenty years for the opportunity to return to the 30th century with Paul and I think it's to DC's credit that they were willing to wait a few weeks so I could get it done up right.
Oh, and yes,the 30th century's still just as much fun as I thought it would be.
K-
Posted by future king on :
Wow, I feel for the guy now, going through that sort of surgery. I for one am willing to wait until Keith is his 100% before expecting and waiting for something this special and worrying that it's going to come out a few weeks late. That, plus one's health must always come first.
Posted by cleome on :
Yeah. A minor delay is all right with me, regardless of circumstance. And eye surgery is nothing to take lightly.
It was nice of him to let the fans know what was up, though.
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
More delays. My comic book guy says the Annual will NOT be out next week. His info is that it's been pushed back another TWO WEEKS...to February 2nd. Let's hope it doesn't get any worse.....
Posted by MLLASH on :
Crapballs. Retinal detachment surgery is unpleasant at best. Recovery can range from excellent to none.
I'm concerned for him!!!
Posted by cleome on :
It may not be about Giffen's physical recovery this time. Maybe it's another case of the election results requiring that part of a story be reworked. (Getting back to fk's comment above.)
Posted by lil'rhino on :
Gads, I'm itching for this to come out already!!
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
Hopefully, it's still shipping next week.
:pray:
Posted by future king on :
I checked with Diamond and yes it is scheduled for next Wednesday as planned. Thank goodness!
I haven't been this excited for a Legion annual to come out since 1988 ... when my letter was published in the letter column of LSH Annual #4. Posted by Chief Lardy on :
Yep, my comic book guy confirmed, as well. YAY!
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I'm quite willing to be patient. I'd rather see Keith recovered and up to snuff than worry about when it comes out.
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I'm quite willing to be patient. I'd rather see Keith recovered and up to snuff than worry about when it comes out.
Dude--Kent--it's coming out NEXT WEEK (actually, only four days, now!!) already! Dig? Posted by lil'rhino on :
Yay!! So Feb. 2nd we get the Annual and the first Jimenez Legion Academy issue!!
Posted by Set on :
Ooh, that is exciting. Legion Academy sounds awesome, and the Annual, focused on some Legion ladies who've gotten insufficient play in the main book, could rock.
Posted by Candlelight on :
This WEEK! Yah!
Best slightly early birthday present I've had in YEARS! WOOOOHOOOO! I get Giffen AND Jimenez! Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I'm quite willing to be patient. I'd rather see Keith recovered and up to snuff than worry about when it comes out.
Dude--Kent--it's coming out NEXT WEEK (actually, only four days, now!!) already! Dig?
Scheduling does not always meet actuality.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
Has anyone heard how Keith Giffen is doing?
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Yay!! So Feb. 2nd we get the Annual and the first Jimenez Legion Academy issue!!
Er, sorry, Rhino...but I'm 99% sure the Adventure issue ships on the 9th.
On the bright side, that means three out of four weeks in February contain original Legion content! Posted by Chief Lardy on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I'm quite willing to be patient. I'd rather see Keith recovered and up to snuff than worry about when it comes out.
Dude--Kent--it's coming out NEXT WEEK (actually, only four days, now!!) already! Dig?
Scheduling does not always meet actuality.
The week before shipping, Diamond issues a list to retailers of exactly what they will receive in the following week's shipment. Barring shipping errors like shortages, that means the retailer WILL receive them, and the issue is not subject to further delays. That's how I understand it, anyway according to my comic book guy.
Not sure if it was exactly like this back when you worked in a CBS, Kent.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Has anyone heard how Keith Giffen is doing?
I wonder how his retina's doing?
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I'm quite willing to be patient. I'd rather see Keith recovered and up to snuff than worry about when it comes out.
Dude--Kent--it's coming out NEXT WEEK (actually, only four days, now!!) already! Dig?
Scheduling does not always meet actuality.
The week before shipping, Diamond issues a list to retailers of exactly what they will receive in the following week's shipment. Barring shipping errors like shortages, that means the retailer WILL receive them, and the issue is not subject to further delays. That's how I understand it, anyway according to my comic book guy.
Not sure if it was exactly like this back when you worked in a CBS, Kent.
in my experience, many types of errors are still possible, including but not limited to shipping errors etc. I've heard the same explanation as that of your CBS guy; I've still seen snafus even in recent years (as a customer, long after my CBS run) that said explanation does not cover.
It's still winter. Last I knew, most major comics are still printed in Montreal. Transportation snafus happen, printing snafus happen, weather snafus happen, clerical snafus happen, border/customs snafus happen. I have little faith in Diamond; I've seen them screw the pooch so many times the pooch had kittens.
I count no comic definite until it has arrived.
Posted by Chief Lardy on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I count no comic definite until it has arrived.
Awright, then. <fingers crossed> Posted by lil'rhino on :
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Yay!! So Feb. 2nd we get the Annual and the first Jimenez Legion Academy issue!!
Er, sorry, Rhino...but I'm 99% sure the Adventure issue ships on the 9th.
D'oh!!
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino:
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy:
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Yay!! So Feb. 2nd we get the Annual and the first Jimenez Legion Academy issue!!
Er, sorry, Rhino...but I'm 99% sure the Adventure issue ships on the 9th.
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