Okay, I can understand Gary Frank wanting to update some of the Legion uniforms, but I think he should have left most of them along. I mean, does anyone here really think his version of Timber Wolf is superior to the classic Cockrum design? And what about Shadow Lass?! Cockrum's design was sexy, sure, but not slutty. Shrinking Violet and Colossal Boy just look boring compared to the 70s and/or 80s versions. And Ultra Boy's classic costume didn't need an update at all -- certainly shouldn't have lost the sleeves (Franks signature addition to most of the male Legion costumes). Saturn Girl looks too butch and Lightning Lad looks too feminine.
Of all the updates, the only ones that didn't bother me were those on Polar Boy, Blok, Dawnstar and Phantom Girl (though the Cockrum, and Kitson costumes were all superior to her new one -- even the Phase costume by Giffen was better).
Well, at least he didn't change Star Boy's or Sun Boy's costumes.
Boo on DC editorial for not reigning Frank in. I've actually been a fan of his for quite some time, but these new Legion designs were simply not needed -- or shouldn't have been changed as drastically as they were.
Sorry if this reads as a post by Superboy-Prime -- but sometimes the guy knows what he's talking about.
If they do decide to go back to the old costumes -- they should probably do it gradually to avoid confusion (unlike the way Frank introduced all-new uniforms in Action Comics). Or maybe we just have to wait until Legion gets a series of its own and a new artist can come up with better designs.
It's just a shame that they bring back the classic Legion and dress in these drab/ugly rags.
Opinions?
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
DC editors need to pay about 10 of their artists to come up with costumes. Then they should let the fans vote or the editors decide.
Biggest mistake in comics lately is have the new artist redo all the costumes of the characters.
I didn't mind the Frank update...but if they decide to redo some...i'm OK with it.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
My biggest problems with them were the following -
A.) Re-introducing the classic version of the Legion should have featured their classic uniforms or at least the uniforms for the time at which they diverted from the previous established continuity. It's confusing enough for long-time fans. I'm sure most casual readers that read both Lightning Saga and the Action issues/L3W were scratching their heads as to why they weren't the same characters/costumes.
B.) It prevented George from drawing the iconic versions of the Legion in L3W. In fact, if it weren't for the costume changes, I think Johns could have had Lightning Saga take place during L3W. That would have made everything, especially Star Boy's (I hate calling him ...Man) sequences and role, more sensible and logical.
It was a lost opportunity.
In the past (prior to the boots), no one (not even Cockrum - his was gradual) made wholesale changes to virtually every character's costume at the exact same time. There was and still is no reason behind it.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
As well as the artistic and reader confusion issues, there is also a question of logic. The Legion were fragmented, outlawed and fighting for their existance. Brainy couldn't take time for a haircut but virtually every Legionnaire took time out to design/create a new costume. Not really believable is it?
Posted by Pov on :
No pants. Posted by Pov on :
Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
quote:Originally posted by Pov: No pants.
It was tried in 1974. The fans did not like it.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Excellent points all around (except maybe Pov's). The new costumes only destabilize the Legion's already precarious position. DC needs to make the Legion as recognizable as possible to firm up their ambiguous status in the DCU. Especially since they went to all the trouble of reconnecting their ties to Superboy/man, giving them all a whole new look is counterproductive.
I especially hate Wildfire's, Lightning Lad's, and Shrinking Violet's. I hate all the bare arms in general though.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
The only thing I hate about these costumes is that someone keeps coloring Ultra Boy with black hair and a yellow symbol. WHY???
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
I don't mind most of the costume changes, although I almost weep to see Shadow Lass in such a Fredericks of Hollywood suit.
The changes weren't necessary, but it seems every artist wants to put his/her own stamp on the team. You wonder if there would be any team logic to why they changed, though - fashion? some technological improvements? protest against their treatment by Earth authorities?
Posted by Candle on :
I'm not big on 'iconic' and I don't think any of the costumes, besides Violet's, and maybe Drake's, are different enough from the 'originals' to be confusing to anyone.
That said, I don't feel that any of the new costumes are worth the change.
Long ago, K. Haven Metzger designed Imra's new look early on and Cockrum kept it.
In his FIRST story, Superboy 184, he changed Cham, Violet, ML and Lu. The next issue I have (Archives), Superboy 188, he changed Tinya and Gim (and created Drake's.)
In Superboy 197, I can't believe how many issues are missing from the Archives!!!!!!!!
You're right, JG, the new costumes were introduced over time, but I assume, the included issues were all the ones drawn by Cockrum, so he changed costumes in each of his issues.
Anyway, in 197, he changed Timbor Wolf and Lightning Lad. In 198, PP and Jan got new costumes (Brainy got a turtleneck, too, I think.)
Dreamy and Thom got new looks in 199.
We saw Ayla's new costume at the wedding in 200 (Cockrum didn't design hers, a now famous fan did, but I can't remember her name) and Shady's, eho was not at the wedding.
Drake, an original creation costume of Cockrum's, appeared again in 201, as did Drura, Pete and Molecular Master ~ all fantastic costumes.
And that's it for Dave's changes. Grell made some too, but I won't go into those.
Supergirl's outfits have changed many times over the years without confusing fans. Tasmia's has too, and maintained her identity.
Costumes can change and for the better, imo, these just aren't better.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Well, just to keep the facts straight, I believe Dave Cockrum did the artwork on the Legion stories in Superboy issues 184, 188, 190, 191, 193, 195, and 197-202.
He didn't change any costumes until #193: Duo Damsel, Karate Kid, Shrinking Violet, and Chameleon Boy. Matter Eater Lad was shown in his old costume, but it was mistakenly colored red instead of green. Duo Damsel's was based on a fan's design (Nick Pascale), but Cockrum changed the boots and collar.
He changed Phantom Girl and Colossal Boy's and introduced ERG-1 in #195. He also changed the collar and deepened the color on Chemical King's.
I agree with the rest of your rundown.
Supergirl's costume may have changed many times, but there aren't 25 of her (although there are more than there used to be ). Also, she's always kept the same basic red/yellow/blue color scheme, emblem, and cape. She's also a much more famous and recognizable comic character than the average Legionnaire.
And I agree most of these costumes are not improvements. Shady's is far too skimpy to be practical and a lot of the other ones are just ugly imho. Colossal Boy's has too many straps, buckles, layers, etc. Who wants to draw all that minute detail?
[ August 17, 2009, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: jimgallagher ]
Posted by cleome on :
My favorite thing about new artists is seeing what they do to the costumes, truthfully.
My favorite overall look was the unified effect that I've seen from the Moy era, however.
If I never see another Spears-style midriff, thong or bikini, it'll be too soon. Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Save the crotch shield!
Mostly, I do not even notice the costume changes until I get on-line and readers comment on them. Just not something I'm sensitive to I guess. Face structure is something I'm more likely to notice.
As posters on other threads have opined, artists should be able to have some fun with the characters and I'd imagine just like the artistic folk here, those artists like to play "dress-up" with the characters. A happy artist is a good artist.
Honestly, I'd rather let the artists play. Then again, I already fessed up I'd not likely notice.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I don't care for the sleeveless thing that is going on on the newest redesigns. I was hoping that George would redesign them all at the end of LO3W.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Save the crotch shield!
Mostly, I do not even notice the costume changes until I get on-line and readers comment on them. Just not something I'm sensitive to I guess. Face structure is something I'm more likely to notice.
As posters on other threads have opined, artists should be able to have some fun with the characters and I'd imagine just like the artistic folk here, those artists like to play "dress-up" with the characters. A happy artist is a good artist.
Honestly, I'd rather let the 'artists play. Then again, I already fessed up I'd not likely notice.
Thank you. I myself don't even think there's anything wrong with them until I hear other people complain. Once again, it makes you wonder how these stories become popular if all people do is complain.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
Put WILDFIRE back in his Cockrum outfit!!!
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
Give Timber Wolf back his Cockrum face and hair!!!
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
My point. Does anyone else notice Brin's new costume is a combo of his first few outfits?
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
This would have been more like it.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
I think they're great! Good work Mr. Frank!
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: This would have been more like it.
Drake's got a big head.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: It prevented George from drawing the iconic versions of the Legion in L3W... It was a lost opportunity.
Yep. George is probably to easygoing to have pointed it out, but if it had been me, I'd have said something like -- let's just say those new costumes were too badly damaged in Action Comics, so the Legion went back to what they were wearing previously.
It's not like I ever expected the Legion to use those Bronze Age uniforms again, but after reintroducing those -- they should have stuck with em -- until they launched a new series.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: Well, just to keep the facts straight, I believe Dave Cockrum did the artwork on the Legion stories in Superboy issues 184, 188, 190, 191, 193, 195, and 197-202.
Yes, that's what my Archives say. I DO wish 1) that they'd been clearer in the index as to which stories are in which books and 2) I wish they hadn't left out so many Legion stories.
quote:He didn't change any costumes until #193: Duo Damsel, Karate Kid, Shrinking Violet, and Chameleon Boy. Matter Eater Lad was shown in his old costume, but it was mistakenly colored red instead of green. Duo Damsel's was based on a fan's design (Nick Pascale), but Cockrum changed the boots and collar.
He changed Phantom Girl and Colossal Boy's and introduced ERG-1 in #195. He also changed the collar and deepened the color on Chemical King's.
I agree with the rest of your rundown.
Thanks for the corrections. I thought I said 193 - 195 correctly. Go figure.
quote:Supergirl's costume may have changed many times, but there aren't 25 of her (although there are more than there used to be ). Also, she's always kept the same basic red/yellow/blue color scheme, emblem, and cape. She's also a much more famous and recognizable comic character than the average Legionnaire.
Most of the Legion costumes that I remember, have kept similar colors for new costumes. Violet's have been noteable exceptions, changing from green to violet and back and forth and now both. Supergirl IS more famous and recognizeable.
quote:And I agree most of these costumes are not improvements. Shady's is far too skimpy to be practical and a lot of the other ones are just ugly imho. Colossal Boy's has too many straps, buckles, layers, etc. Who wants to draw all that minute detail?
Yes, simpler is always better. I have a short series called 'Trinity Angels' and the artist/writer started with a medium level type costume for each of them, went to all white with nothing extra and at the last, I think, just went red, blue and green (or yellow?) Anyway, the point being that too much 'stuff' is just too hard.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Give Timber Wolf back his Cockrum face and hair!!!
IF NOTHING ELSE CHANGES, at least fix Timber Wolf. He should never have lost tht Cockrum face. I though Lightle's design for T.Wolf's uniform was decent, but the face and hair should have NEVER changed.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy: I think they're great! Good work Mr. Frank!
All of them?!
Surely there are a couple that don't past muster. I think Shadow Lass's is the probaby the worst -- even though it's an attempt to update the Cockrum/Grell version. And Timber Wolf's is so -- well, boring.
Posted by Candle on :
I don't want ANY of the old Cockrum costumes. Why would anyone want to wear something so old?
I've got some things from the 90's I still wear but they're just comfortable, not stylish.
Classic is fine but come on, let's have some fresh air!
Posted by Candle on :
And like cleome, I like a unified look with variations. The Legion is a TEAM.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: And like cleome, I like a unified look with variations. The Legion is a TEAM.
A team, yes. A platoon, no!
The unified look works for the Fantastic Four. I like that the Legion is made up of individuals -- and that's part of the reason I like the Bronze Age Legion better than the Silver Age verion. It was too homogenous -- from the personalities to the costumes.
I really don't mind if the Cockrum costumes aren't used -- as long as new versions are better or at least as good. Of course, taste is subjective, but it seems that the Frank costumes are more controversial than most.
My biggest problem with Timber Wolf is that he should never have lost the feral look. That said, the Frank costume is probably the worst of all of Brin's -- with the exception of the white/red from the horribe post Furball period. I think Kitson's design could have used a bit more orange in it -- something that Manapul rectified.
I guess a large part of the appeal of Legion to me was the great visual aspect, and that's something I feel is lost with the current uniforms.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Oh, I don't know. Updating of Legion costumes has become a reality over the years. We are viewed as being so intractable on other things, I think allowing a little leeway on costumes is a minor enough thing to accept.
I mean, yes, some are better than others, but thats been the case from the first change itself.
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Jorge: DC editors need to pay about 10 of their artists to come up with costumes. Then they should let the fans vote or the editors decide.
Biggest mistake in comics lately is have the new artist redo all the costumes of the characters.
I didn't mind the Frank update...but if they decide to redo some...i'm OK with it.
I think this is a great idea,put it to a vote.
The one thing that has been missing from the Legion even before the reboots,is fan participation.
Whether it was a vote for Legion leadership,creating characters for tryouts or fan designed costumes.
I can't seem to remember if other team books used to do this,but I know the Legion did.
Posted by Candle on :
Yes, I like a more feral look for Wolf and a more Asian look for Val (he's dead now so .)
I don't think the kids in the reboot looked like a platoon ~ they just had a few basic costume starting points:
* high collars that they could open, close, turn up, turn down, etc. * a center panel of a different color that could be subtle or contrasty, light or dark, hold a design or be plain, end on the torso or extend down the legs, etc. * utility belts that carried things, or didn't and had a Legion symbol buckle.
Everything else ~ color, capes, gloves, boots/shoes, headgear, sleeves, lengths, loose or formfitting, skirts/pants/shorts/etc. and cutouts, were open for interpretation and creativity.
I just prefer something like that, not military sameness, just a cohesive, somehow identifying, over all concept.
Which I wish we would get from fan submissions but I don't think we would.
Maybe, an artist could start with fan designs and modify them into a 'look'.
I know, they could hire a real designer, like Christian or Chloe! Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: [QUOTE]Yes, that's what my Archives say. I DO wish 1) that they'd been clearer in the index as to which stories are in which books and 2) I wish they hadn't left out so many Legion stories.
I get the impression that you think that because the archives included Legion stories from Superboy 184, 188, 190, 191, 193, 195, and 197 that they left out the Legion stories that appeared in the intervening issues. Is that true? Because the Legion didn't appear in the intervening issues. They only appeared sporadically in their Superboy backup position, until they took over the book with #197 that is.
There are also new Legion stories in Superboy 172, 173, 176, and 183. All drawn by George Tuska, I believe, and all pretty forgettable. Some intermittent issues featured reprints from Adventure Comics.
[ August 18, 2009, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: jimgallagher ]
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
I'm not opposed to change,when the change is for the better,that said for the most part Frank's designs make them look like the Legion of Caribbean-Heroes,instead of the Legion of Super-Heroes in my opinion.
Heres a rundown of my favorite costumes for each Legionnaire.
Blok - Lightle Bouncing Boy - Original Brainiac 5 - Manupal or Frank Chameleon Boy - Cockrum Chameleon Girl - Frank Chemical King - Original/Cockrum tweak Colossal Boy - Cockrum Cosmic Boy - Perez (used by Giffen), or Sprouse Dawnstar - Grell or Frank Dream Girl - Cockrum(Sherman really gave it a mirrored look) Duo Damsel - Fan design used by Cockrum Element Lad - Cockrum Ferro Lad - Swan Invisible Kid (Lyle) - Sprouse Invisible kid (Jacques) - Giffen Karate Kid (Val) - Cockrum (later brought back by Grell) Karate Kid (Myg) - Lightle Lightning Lad - Cockrum Lightning Lass - Lightle Magnetic Kid - Needed a redesign Matter-Eater Lad - Original Mon-El - Original Night Girl - Colon/Giffen Phantom Girl - Giffen or Maupal Polar Boy - Lightle Princess Projectra - Cockrum Quislet - never mind Saturn Girl - Lightle or Manupal Sensor Girl - see Princess Projectra Shadow Lass - Cockrum or Perez(used by Giffen) Shrinking Violet - Cockrum Star Boy - Cockrum Sun Boy - Original Superboy - Kal-El Supergirl - Hotpants Tellus - He's naked Timber Wolf - Lightle,but with Cockrum face and Hair. Tyroc - Somebody please redesign his costume Ultra Boy - Original White Witch - Giffen Wildfire - Cockrum
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Lyle had more than one costume? Didn't he die in his original one?
Posted by kcekada on :
He's referring to the Invisible Kid from "Legionnaires" -- the team that was originally clones of the original Legion -- then switched over to being a second Legion book when the team was rebooted.
I liked Sun Boy's look as Inferno in Legionnaires. Simple, yet effective. Of course, I liked the classic version as well. And Manapul came up with a good look for the character right before Legion was cancelled.
Didn't like the yellow tights on Sun Boy that Kitson created.
And yeah, I'd like to see Val Armorr return to the Legion. Screw Keith Giffen!
Posted by insanelad on :
Timber Wolf having Wolverine-style gelled hair is not a feral look. It looks as if he has far too much time on his hands and is too interested in his hair.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Heres a rundown of my favorite costumes for each Legionnaire.
I *think* I mostly agree with your choices, but I'll admit that I can't remember half of them that well. The only one I know that I don't agree with fully is Projectra, because I kind of loved the light purple bodysuit that Kitson put her in. (Although, arguably, that Projectra is a fairly different character.)
We totally need a costume gallery...
Posted by Blacula on :
Wow! This is a popular thread! 3 pages already in only 1 day. I guess Legion costumes are a hot topic here at Legion World.
For what it's worth - I really like the Frank designs. I also really liked the Cockrum/Grell designs and the Adventure-era designs and the reboot costumes as well. But those costumes were all reflections of their eras, and like-it-or-not those eras (like most of those costumes) are all gone.
Maybe those who prefer the older costumes can take comfort in the fact that at least some of the Legionnaires are still sporting them - Sun Boy, Bouncing Boy, Element Lad, Dream Girl, Star Boy, Tellus, Mon-el, Sensor Girl and Quislet (and maybe even Chameleon Boy and Tyroc) all seem to be wearing un-updated costumes. That's a sizeable chunk.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by kcekada: He's referring to the Invisible Kid from "Legionnaires" -- the team that was originally clones of the original Legion -- then switched over to being a second Legion book when the team was rebooted.
Oh, of course. Duh!
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I get the impression that you think that because the archives included Legion stories from Superboy 184, 188, 190, 191, 193, 195, and 197 that they left out the Legion stories that appeared in the intervening issues. Is that true? Because the Legion didn't appear in the intervening issues. They only appeared sporadically in their Superboy backup position, until they took over the book with #197 that is.
I WAS under that impression, Jim. Thank-you for taking the time to let me know better. Posted by jimgallagher on :
Just doin' my job, Ma'am. Isn't it a relief to know that you didn't miss anything after all?
Were the Tuska stories included in the Archives? Waste of paper, imho. I only have Archive #1, which I bought to get the first Legion appearance. I can't afford Adv. #247, but I have all of the other Legion appearances in the original form.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
Most of the Legion backup stories in Superboy mentioned (Tuska and Cockrum artwork, and others) are in Archive #10. It also begins the full length S&LSH run, including the DD&BB wedding!
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
In regard to the uniforms, I like the idea that the adult Legionnaires would want to change their clothes from when they were kids. I don't mind artists experimenting with different uniforms (you may never get the next 'great' one otherwise) as long as the characters remain identifiable visually.
I agree that the new look of Wildfire has taken a step back, and Jacques looks more like a GAP assistant now, but I dig Timber Wolf's beard and classic colors and Dawnstar's outfit is an upgrade for me.
Maybe these can be worked into some story subplots (like trippin' Arathmites on the loose), and how Brainy and Jo and Garth all want to get their hair cut NOT at the place Imra got hers.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: I'm not opposed to change,when the change is for the better,that said for the most part Frank's designs make them look like the Legion of Caribbean-Heroes,instead of the Legion of Super-Heroes in my opinion.
Heres a rundown of my favorite costumes for each Legionnaire.
I LOVE it when someone else does all the work and I can ~swooooop in and just change (or not) the list to reflect MY pov, if I can find them all! Thanks!
Andromeda/Laurel Gand - Sprouse Blok - I've never really liked any of his outfits Bouncing Boy - Cockrum's wedding outfit, just the jumpsuit without the sash, cape with collar, necklace and high boots Brainiac 5 - Coipel's look for Brainy Chameleon (Boy) - DnA's Cham is my favorite, so Coipel Yera - don't care Chemical King - Swan, from the adult Legion cover Colossal Boy - Kitson Cosmic Boy - Kitson Dawnstar - Grell's origianl that didn't show everything Dream Girl - as drawn by Batista and Farmer in Legion #22 03 Duo Damsel/Triad - 1) The wedding outfit with the front and back skirt panels shortened to mid thigh and the white changed to purple 2)Sprouse Element Lad - Coipel in the hologram with the beard and long hair (Moy or Sprouse design) Ferro (Boy)- Sprouse as drawn by Batista and Farmer Gates - with the hood Gear - as drawn by Batista and Farmer Invisible Kid (Lyle) - Sprouse's black and white Invisible kid (Jacques) - Giffen Karate Kid (Val) - Sprouse as drawn by Batista and Farmer in #22 03 Karate Kid (Myg) - Lightle Live Wire/Lightning Lad - Sprouse Light/Ligntning Lass - fan design introduced by Cockrum Magnetic Kid - Giffen Matter-Eater Lad - Sprouse Mon-El/M'Onel/Valor - Giffen in his last battle with the Trapper Monstress - as drawn by Batista and Farmer Night Girl - Swan Phantom Girl/Apparition/Phase - Phase as drawn by Kitson Princess Projectra - The Naga (no clothes) as drawn by Batista and Farmer in 'Legion' #22 03 Quantum Kid II - Coipel's version Quislet - never mind Saturn Girl - as an adult with short hair and the Perez look that I know was designed for the Lightning Saga Sensor Girl - see Princess Projectra Shadow Lass/Umbra - Moy's design as drawn by Coipel Shikari - Coipel with the retracting black armour Shrinking Violet - Cockrum only the violet colored version, whoever did that Star Boy/Man - Cockrum but hooded version, who ever did that in JSA? Sun Boy/Inferno - Sprouse Superboy - Alex Ross version for the Legion Supergirl - Alex Ross version for the Legion Tellus - he's naked (yeah) Timber Wolf - his Coipel look especially as drawn by Batista and Farmer Tyroc - Somebody please redesign his costume Ultra Boy - they're all about the same but I like him with the jacket White Witch/Jewel/Black Witch - Swan's oufit and Jewel's lavendar hair Wildfire - Coipel XS - J.Moy as seen on the cover of Legionnaires #76
I couldn't find all of the exact creators, so sometimes, I went with the artist who drew them the way I liked their look the best. Sorry if that's confusing or a copout.
Liking costumes that span the whole of the Legion's existance is hard work. I'm tired.
Posted by Candle on :
The Archives are only a waste if your original issues weren't all stolen from where they were stored! sigh
And yes, all of Cockrum's issues are in Archive #10! Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: .
For what it's worth - I really like the Frank designs. I also really liked the Cockrum/Grell designs and the Adventure-era designs and the reboot costumes as well. But those costumes were all reflections of their eras, and like-it-or-not those eras (like most of those costumes) are all gone.
To be completely honest, Phantom Girl in bell bottoms and pigtails is definitely a look from another era. Lightning Lad's costume, however, is a very classic design that holds up today -- much like Spiderman's costume, Phoenix's (another Cockrum classic) or Daredevil's just to name a few.
Here are the costumes that I think hold up (for various reasons):
Silver Age/Bronze Age Ultra Boy -- much like Superboy's/Superman's costme -- it just says Ultra Boy. Tweak it if you must with some goofy brown leather, but the swimsuit-style Frank seemed to be going with doesn't suit Jo.
Lightning Lad -- very streamlined and classic. Heck, Benes stole the design for Black Lightning.
Mon-El -- see Ultra Boy. Quasi-military look with no frills. The starfield added in the 90s to Mo'Nel (groan) was better left to...
Star Boy -- great use of a starfield and simple design -- white boots and gloves. No cape, white pants or giant star logo necessary.
Timber Wolf -- Either the Cockrum or Lightle version, please. Manpul's wasn't bad -- but the bare feet thing seemed a bit over the top. I just want the Cockrum hair and face back. He didn't have to style it that way -- it was the way it grew.
These are the costumes that could use some minor modificatons:
Cockrum Shrinking Violet -- I liked the violet color in the 80s. The 70s hairdo needs updated -- otherwise, perfect. The styless mini skirt she's wearing now cries (I didn't put any thought into designing this drab outfit).
Cockrum Colossal Boy -- The bucaneer boots have long since fallen out of favor. The vest with the point shoulders can go, but everything else is pretty good. I like the topless "hood", but others may disagree.
Giffen Duo Damsel -- very simple, yet effective use of the orange and purple. I didn't like the outfit she wore at the end of L3W -- looked like something out of the Silver Age.
Kitson Light Lass -- better use of the arrow than 70s Element Lad (a uniform I dug in the 70s). No idea why Manapul changed it, but it was cool. I think it could be updated to replace the arrow mofit with a bolt motif and viola!
These are costumes that definitely are dated:
Cockrum Wildfire. LOVED it in the 70s. The boots and bubble helmet are a bit weird in the Millenium. Keep the color scheme and insignai, change the helmet. The clear plastic casing is not something Drake would wear -- as he doesn't want a constant reminder that he's no longer human.
Cockrum Phantom Girl -- Her look was so sexy in the 70s, but very anachronistic in this day and age. Both Kitson's and Manapul's designs were okay. I liked the Phase outfit from the 90s, but it could probably use an update as well. Frank's version didn't bother me, but it looked a bit like the fan-submitted outfit with the pearls from the early 70s. Okay, but not great. I'd like to see someone totally reinvent her costume -- maybe something more flowing.
Cockrum/Grell Karate Kid. I liked Manapuls update.
Princess Projectra/Sensor Girl. Loved the 70s costume back then. None of her costumes are okay as is. I thought Kitson's was boring, and the Sensor Girl outfit is too busy.
And these are the Gary Frank uniforms that have to go:
Lightning Lad Shrinking Violet Timber Wolf Colossal Boy -- too militaristic for the Legion. Shadow Lass Wildfire (actually a cool design -- just not approp for the character) Ultra Boy (just unnecessary -- and not an improvement).
As for Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy -- I can live with the costumes (though neither are great), but both they and Garth need to change hairstyles.
And there are some costumes I liked that still work today, but I don't mind updates.
Dream Girl -- either Cockrum or Adam Hughes (from the end of the preboot Legionnaires). Haven't really like any of her outfits since.
Sun Boy -- either classic Silver Age or Adam Hughes preboot Legionnaires -- with the yellow vertical strip topped with flame.
[ August 18, 2009, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: kcekada ]
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: The Archives are only a waste if your original issues weren't all stolen from where they were stored! sigh
And yes, all of Cockrum's issues are in Archive #10!
I was asking if the Tuska-drawn stories were reprinted. That's what I considered a waste of paper, not the Archives themselves.
Posted by Candle on :
Oh! :blush:
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Oh! :blush:
See... you went on your high-horse ... mmm-hmmm.
Posted by Candle on :
Posted by imskian78 on :
With all of the rumours out there that the current run of Legion is ending with issue 50 and a relaunch of the Adventure/Levitz Legion on the horizon I would like to make the case for the Legion to return to their classic, iconic costumes of the 70's 80's and 90's. I know we have all discussed this at different times over the years but the time is NOW. 1. Just think how the Legion would be better known if their costumes stayed with maybe a little updating to the general public. 2. Alex Ross when drawing/painting the Legion makes the point on how dynamic the Legion looks in those costumes. 3. Dave Cockrum was...the best..super hero costume designer.. he just got it perfect or near perfect with The Legion and The Xmen. In memory of him if not anything else, the Legion should return to the look they had for many many years! 4. Some characters have never looked better than in their costumes of the Cockrum era.. you can't improve on profection. Adding pockets, bags, Legion belts..etc.. distracts from the icon.
So Mr. Johns...please consider this and let's complete the rebirth of everyones favorite Legion with their Iconic visual so wonderfully done by COckrum/Grell.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I agree. They keep calling the Action Comics Legion the "real" legion, but the Gary Frank designs don't really scream "the real Legion" to me. They seem more like "alternate future dystopian Legion." The lineup of statues in Superman's Fortress of solitude on the other hand makes me think of the "real" Legion. They should just go back to that for the most part.
Posted by Acid Digestion Lad on :
While I can't argue with you both about the costumes/ uniforms, I will say that I still don't beleive that the Action legion is the real legion exactly. Just more like a close approximation. However since they are also the same legion that appaered in lightning saga who knows..tho' I wish that the'd kept the same uniforms >_<;
[ September 14, 2008, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Acid Digestion Lad ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
"close approximation" is a good term.
I myself have taken up the term "Neoclassic Legion."
Any era has its 'classic iconic' costumes. In the 70s, some gfans called the then-new costumes by all sorts of bad names. the Levitz era only escaped that by often returning to 60s motifs and updating them.
The Frank costumes are not perfect, but there is no reason an updated version of the Preboot team *has* to stay with any single era.
Posted by insanelad on :
I wouldn't say no to some updated/redesigned costumes by Alex Ross - the ones he did for Kingdom Come were awesome. A little tweak here and there of some of the classic costumes would be good, just to take the 50s edge off a little. (as much as I love a good briefs-over-the-leggings look, I still don't *quite* get it... )
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I think one of the reasons why Superman, Spider-Man, etc. are iconic is that they've established a look and maintained it. They always revert back to it even when a change occurs. Why this isn't done with every character, I'll never understand.
There was no good reason to change the costumes after the Lightning Saga. I see it as a huge Editorial blunder to allow Frank to make these changes which are compounded by making Perez draw them in L3W. The Cockrum/Grell/Perez (he designed a few back then too, see here)/Giffen/Lightle designs should be the ones to use with the "classic/neoclassic" Legion.
It also doesn't help that Frank's designs are more dated and dreadful than the reboot or 3boot version combined. But, that could just be me.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Classics are nice but some plausible mention should be made of where they store their stuff. Spray-on glow-in-the-dark condoms don't just stuff into the sock.
Posted by veryvery on :
boo hiss :/!! i know you guys love cockrum et al but... man those designs LOOK like the period they were made in. in fact, all of them do.
when i see a comic where the costume designs look old timey, i avoid it like the plague, because it means "i will not understand this, it is SO OLD"
i like the new costumes because they LOOK LIKE FABRIC. they look like jackets and belts and boots with depth and dimension.
you guys might have nostalgic feelings for those costumes, but all they scream to new/younger readers is "GIANT FASHION NO-NO, THESE PEOPLE LOOK WEIRD".
i have the same feeling towards jack kirby clothing designs. they always look a little bit old and kirby-esque. i, personally, know a kirby costume but my kid brother would just see a bunch of weirdos. to me, there's almost no way that those old costumes could translate into a modern drawing style without look heinous.
god, every time i hear this i think "poor gary frank". do you have any idea what kind of task it must have been to go "here, redesign all of these. no matter what you do, everyone will hate it." and you know, comic book artists DO NOT GET PAID for the time they have to spend doing character and set design :/! just imagine spending days pulling out your hair over designs that NO ONE will like. and hey you're a comic book artist, not a fashion designer! you know about telling a story, not nice clothes! it also makes you into a future-theorist, trying to guess what future-fashion looks like. i'm sure he would have LOVED to have just been given diagrams of their costumes and told to use them and move along.
one of my favorite scenes in LO3W is where prime mimics fans by saying "i like their old costumes better". johns knows. and i'm sure he weeps inside.
your realize that A LOT of costume design back in the day was not based on any coherent understand of how clothing works, practicality, or fashion sense? those images NC just linked to? a majority of them look like naked bodies with paint on them, with like, a pair of boots and a belt. most design was based on "make this character look different from all the others". these were old dudes going "what do the young people wear?". imagine your grandfather or even your DAD trying to draw what he thinks people will wear in the future. *hence tinya's horrible bell bottoms, eh?)
if it was up to me, they'd all look like they were from a cute japanese game, but it's not up to me! i can't have everyone in ruffles and bows and cute hair accessories with a matching belt and shoes, and a tiny cute pet animal that follows them around!! *shake fist* so be grateful that I'M not in charge or you'd really be upset.
if you want "original costumes", then you have to go back to the first issue where cos sports a bubble on his head, and imra wears a track suit top with horrible long green skirt. i bet there's some billion year old fan that still gets angry that cosmic boy lost his head-bubble. where is your fury over the lost head bubble?! why doesn't imra look like she just got back from a sock hop?!! why is no one crying over that, eh? because it LOOKED WEIRD AND OLD.
I hardly think age has anything to do with any of this.
Superman's costume has been around for generations. You may think it looks old, but I guarantee that people YOUR age feel that it's iconic as well as I do.
I actually DO like Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, and Cosmic Boy's original costumes, even though they were designed and appeared 13 or so years before I was even born.
I appreciate more than the fad of the week when it comes to a costume. I actually prefer the Silver Age original costumes for the Legionnaires, but since the "classic/neoclassics" were re-introduced in the later costumes, why not stick with them. Gary Frank was not asked to re-design anything. He took it upon himself according to interviews and even George wishes he could draw the more iconic designs. If anything looks dated it's Frank's designs. They pale in comparison to what's been done before.
"You're old and only like old stuff." is a weak argument. Eventually what you like will also be replaced by a newer fad, doesn't mean that what is new will be or look better.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: you guys might have nostalgic feelings for those costumes, but all they scream to new/younger readers is "GIANT FASHION NO-NO, THESE PEOPLE LOOK WEIRD".
EXACTLY!!!!
We need costumes in which the pants' tops lay two inches above the knee, the butt cracks "swelp" whenever the hero gets out of a chair and the three layers of t's are two sizes too big.
We need more Jamm!
reppin the four one nine, yo.
Posted by veryvery on :
superman is a WHOLE NOTHER ANIMAL, dude. totally different. consider, how many clothing changes has lois lane done? or how about lex luthor? he went form mad scientist to slick professional suit.
we're not talking about one iconic main character, we're talking about an entire CREW of people, a TEAM BOOK. so lets think about something more appropriate. consider how many clothing redesigns the X-MEN have gone through. the more SINGULAR a character is, the more ABLE TO STAND ON THEIR OWN, the more likely they are to maintain an iconic look. wolverine might look basically the same, since he's a character that has gained enough popularity to stand on his own, but what about storm? what about phoenix? you'll notice mon-el has gotten some of that singularity (possibly from only SORT OF being a legionnaire i nthe forst place), therefore his costume doesn't change that much.
the x-men maintain freshness by seamlessly reinventing the team every few years. the legion reinvents itself too, why it's never as effective as the x-men? i'll never know, perhaps because the backstory is much more impenetrable for a new reader? i think the x-men had the advantage of being set "now" so in order to make them current, they just needed to start making them wear whatever they saw on tv that day. then again, cockrum did redesigns for both, eh? i think the xmen have had MORE costume revisions than the legion, haven't they? i feel like they wear something different every time there's an artist switch but i'm not a big xmen follower...
Posted by veryvery on :
oh and furthermore, i see the costume design changes as EVOLUTIONS, as something you can't really stop because you have to make the book appealing and appropriate for your target audience. old looking outfits just don't appeal to current readers, especially if they're sitting next to books that look modern and current. people tend to gravitate to whatever was there when they picked up the book because that's just how you know them, what's familiar. that's fine but overall would that be good or bad for the book? to have dated looking costumes that turn away new readers?
Posted by Acid Digestion Lad on :
I've been thinking on this for a bit today while I was out. Each time there's been a uniform change there's been a character \or complete team transition or growth. Some would even call it a transformation depending on how drastic the change/ reboot, or whathave you is\was. With Gary's Redesigns it was to show that time had past and that they aged and adapted with the changes. To an extent, that's just what Gary Frank did. It's whatevery artist does, and with every re design there are changes that we won't like and some that we will. Ya work / deal with what ya get and be happy your team is in someway still in comics.
On a side note, Lydda and Tasmia..and for that matter Lar and Dirk didn't change suits..sort of their way of not adapting to the changes? wanting to stay as they were as much as they can?
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
uniform change:
Yo, yo step-off dat. Jo, SG frontin the crunk ay janky but dat 'B" dope in her chav and bling.
ECKO dat FUBU!
Word.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I think one of the reasons why Superman, Spider-Man, etc. are iconic is that they've established a look and maintained it. They always revert back to it even when a change occurs. Why this isn't done with every character, I'll never understand.
I agree completely, Nightly. And I know each individual Legionnaire isn't as iconic as Superman, but the Fantastic 4 have kept their same basic suits forever, as have most of the Justice League and Avengers. If each new artist that came along didn't find it necessary to redesign the entire Legion, they might be more recognizable and accessible to the casual reader, which might help boost their sales, which MIGHT prevent the DC bozos from rebooting them every few years. grumble grumble grumble
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
quote:Originally posted by imskian78: With all of the rumours out there that the current run of Legion is ending with issue 50 and a relaunch of the Adventure/Levitz Legion on the horizon I would like to make the case for the Legion to return to their classic, iconic costumes of the 70's 80's and 90's. I know we have all discussed this at different times over the years but the time is NOW. 1. Just think how the Legion would be better known if their costumes stayed with maybe a little updating to the general public. 2. Alex Ross when drawing/painting the Legion makes the point on how dynamic the Legion looks in those costumes. 3. Dave Cockrum was...the best..super hero costume designer.. he just got it perfect or near perfect with The Legion and The Xmen. In memory of him if not anything else, the Legion should return to the look they had for many many years! 4. Some characters have never looked better than in their costumes of the Cockrum era.. you can't improve on profection. Adding pockets, bags, Legion belts..etc.. distracts from the icon.
So Mr. Johns...please consider this and let's complete the rebirth of everyones favorite Legion with their Iconic visual so wonderfully done by COckrum/Grell.
I agree 100 percent,the Dave Cockrum costumes as this picture by Alex Ross proves are still the best The Legion ever wore.
[ September 14, 2008, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Eh hem
icons and all that aside, wasn't one of the reasons Legion became so popular that fans actually had input into costume design?
That's tradition too.
Cos would look good in argyle socks, and we KNOW that would predate a visit by one of comicdoms most revered characters.
Posted by Jerry on :
The artists in the Lightning Saga did a fine job with the Cockrum era costumes. They were pretty polished and commercial looking. I thought they looked timeless.
BB, you have me picturing Rokk in argyle socks. I mean nothing but argyle socks. Yeah, he looks good.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
The only costumes I know of that fans designed were Saturn Girl's, Duo Damsel's, and maybe Light Lass's. Dave C. took the basic designs for DD's and LL's from fan designs and modified them. SG's predated Cockrum.
The only other ones I know of are those godawful ones Princess P, Shadow Lass, and K Kid wore in that one backup story in Superboy. Luckily we never saw them again.
I liked Cockrum's designs overall, except for Princess P's. The colors clashed and the costume was too gaudy with too many details. Plus, Grell perverted the design by extending the neckline from the navel all the way down to the crotch, which was very tacky imho. Sensor Girl's costume was just as gaudy though... Not to mention the 80's shoulder pads.
Posted by Ricardo on :
They should drop the costumes, in my opinion, and go for something more interesting. Something more 31st Century.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
I love Dave Cockrum's designs, but I can't say that I find all of them to be classic. I actually prefer many of Giffen's updates, right around Crisis.
Posted by veryvery on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: They should drop the costumes, in my opinion, and go for something more interesting. Something more 31st Century.
are you suggesting nude legionniares? :D because that would be AMAZING. i vote for this x100. how freaked out would villains be if a swarm of naked people came hurtling at them?
Posted by Acid Digestion Lad on :
I think they'd be more distracted rather than freaked out xD. It'd make capturing villians ( and attention) alot easier for one thing.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
That's the way the ancient Greeks did it. It could come back. Ya never know.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: are you suggesting nude legionniares? because that would be AMAZING. i vote for this x100. how freaked out would villains be if a swarm of naked people came hurtling at them?
I could imagine some of the Legionnaires would function fine au natural, but Brainy would need some sort of harness...
What? No, I mean for his force field belt and tools! Stop looking at me like that!
Posted by Yellow Kid on :
Maybe someone with a comprehensive set of scans ought to set up a poll.
Legionnaire by Legionnaire, which costumes are the fan favorites/best designs/most striking ?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
The Legion had several costume changes up to the point where the Johnsboot version comes in, significantly:
the Silver Age Cockrum "disco" Giffen/Levitz
Each of these will be considered the "definitive" or "iconic" by a section of Legion fandom. The Lightning Saga featured for example Projectra in Giffen's Sensor Girl outfit with 1980s shoulder pads. Is that the classic look?
Each set of costumes reflected the fashion of the day (at least the fashion amongst comic artists) so gradual changes are expected.
One of the reasons the Legion has been so popular is that the characters have gradually aged unlike say Superman who is probably supposed to be younger now than when he was first published. Is it logical to expect 20 or 30 somethings to still wear the outfits they wore as teenagers? No.
Could anyone today really expect Lightning Lad to return to his old orange and blue outfit or Saturn Girl to the pink bikini?
I liked Frank's new Vi and Rokk costumes better than their Giffen ones (though Cockrum's Vi design was probably the best ever Legion costume IMHO) but I hated Night Girl's and Invisible Kid's.
Perhaps it is better to let whoever is going to draw the new series decide what reflects their own style best - possibly a mix of all eras
Posted by Pov on :
I vote for "pantsless" Posted by Infectious Drura on :
Strangely enough..the Legion costumes that I consider 'iconic' are the silver age costumes. The first incarnation of the Legion I ever read as a child was the Adventure Comics Legion so to me that is the 'real' Legion. And as a result I've never really liked the Cockrum/Grell costumes because they replaced "my Legion".
(although I do love the Cockrum designs for the X-Men, especially Storm. Again since that was the first costume I ever saw her in I've always considered that her 'real costume' and have hated every costume she's had since.)
On the old DCMBs it seemed every poster was waxing lyrical about the Grell/Cockrum Legion and how wonderful the costumes were. When the SA costumes were mentioned it was generally to sneer at how old fashioned and ugly they were according to everybody. And it was the recieved wisdom of the board that this was so. And I was always like.....hello, don't these people ever stop to consider that they don't speak for everybody?
Strangely enough I think most of the Cockrum/Grell costumes are fugly. Full of over-gaudy clashing colours and horribly dated 70s design elements. I consider the Silver Age costumes to be classic and timeless.
I do wish people who love the 70s Legion would remember sometimes that their 'iconic' is another Legion fan's crappy unwanted re-designs.
Please don't take this as anything personal to all you Bronze Age Legion fans! But as someone whose greatest love is the SA Legion it does get wearing to see the Bronze Age Legion being talked about like it's the only worthwhile version. Again and again and again. It gets old.
No I do not want the 70s costumes back. If I had my way the Adventure Comics era costumes would be back and they would never go away again!
However I'm realistic enough to realise that would never work.
What I'm trying to say in my long winded way is-for every Legion fan there's a different idea of what's 'iconic' and it's generally whichever Legion you saw first.
There is no 'iconic' Legion. There's a patchwork of different incarnations that all have their passionate advocates.
And that's why it's best to look to the future and not slavishly reproduce the past.
Although I do think it's a crying shame that Lightning Lad doesn't have a cape anymore. Ha!
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
quote:Originally posted by Yellow Kid: Maybe someone with a comprehensive set of scans ought to set up a poll.
Legionnaire by Legionnaire, which costumes are the fan favorites/best designs/most striking ?
Heres the Legion costume Survivor,that Kid Prime did a couple of years ago.
quote:Originally posted by Infectious Drura: Strangely enough I think most of the Cockrum/Grell costumes are fugly. Full of over-gaudy clashing colours and horribly dated 70s design elements. I consider the Silver Age costumes to be classic and timeless.
I do wish people who love the 70s Legion would remember sometimes that their 'iconic' is another Legion fan's crappy unwanted re-designs.
(snip)
What I'm trying to say in my long winded way is-for every Legion fan there's a different idea of what's 'iconic' and it's generally whichever Legion you saw first.
There is no 'iconic' Legion. There's a patchwork of different incarnations that all have their passionate advocates.
And that's why it's best to look to the future and not slavishly reproduce the past.
This is something I've felt for a long time. Many superheroes have iconic versions. Sometimes revamps of popular characters don't stick (Byrne's Superman) because the public already "knows" what the character is like and can't easily relearn. But the Legion... most of the world doesn't even know it exists.
To me, all Legions are "a" Legion. There is no "the" Legion.
(And I do hate Cockrum's costume sense, on both the Legion and the X-Men. He got lucky with some designs, like Phantom Girl, but overall, he's not a good fashion designer. His costumes are almost as weird as Kirby's.)
There is no one writer, no artist, no title, no period of comics, that always produces gold.
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
Please. Do not demand a writer to conform to your needs... do you want to jeopardize the quality of his or her work?
Cockrum's designs hisses youth in every frame.
But the Legionnaires are now 30+. They need to have uniforms a little more sensible, or rugged to their needs. At least it isn't an obselette material like spandex, eh?
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
I am surprised this thread has gone on this long with people still lumping Cockrum and Grell.
Generally (with one exception I'll note in a moment), I loved Cockrum's costumes...whether or not they are "iconic" is not for me to say - but they do represent the transition/resurgence of the old "innocent"-era LSH to the more modern style. Certainly, they represent its revival.
That said: Grell's only additions (IMHO) SUCKED... As I recall they were: 1) Nearly naked Cos (the worst) 2) pantsless Colossal boy 3) Giant collar/Bruce Li Karate Kid. 4) His alterations of the Subs...
I did like Dawnstar (but she was new). From Cockrum, I did NOT like Saturn Girl... Pink bikini with thigh boots? You don't even have to see it, you can condemn it just by its description.
AS far as what's "iconic", I think it varies by Legionnaire...
FOR EXAMPLE, a few of Cockrum's outfits (Vi and Element Lad, specifically) did sort of have nothing to do with any other version of those costumes. Likewise, Colossal Boy's Silver Age suit looked like nothing since...definitely not "iconic".
In fact, I'd say on the still-mourned cartoon, how they decided to depict each legionnaire does a good job of approximating the "most typical" look for each legionnaire over time. LO3W is close, but not quite (kind of like when late v3 Giffen decided to give everyone huge pockets and jackets). I *will* say, though, that I can live with it, i.e. not ideal, but close enough.
Posted by veryvery on :
you know another thing to consider is not just the costume design but actual uhm.. ah..what's the word? i guess just CHARACTER design?
querl going from green boy to ADORABLE green boy with little markings on his face, for example?
yeah i'm not a big fan of the older costumes, i can't help but crack up every time i see naked cosmic boy. it's hideous but i love that it happened. i just get excited to see new versions of them, i guess!
oh what i meant to say was... what did you guys think of the costumes in the animated series?
[ September 16, 2008, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: veryvery ]
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Evolution Has Failed,
Grell did not design Karate Kid's high collar costume. That was Cockrum. It debuted in Superboy #193 along with his other first costumes: Vi, DD, and Cham, but then disappeared until the pain plague story, some time after Grell took over.
Cockrum did not design Saturn Girl's new costume either. It first appeared in Action 392 and was designed by a reader (K. Haven Metzger I think), long before Dave started drawing Legion. It was originally red, but after a couple of appearances it was made pink, probably to try and make Imra more feminine and live down her iron butt image.
James Sherman was the first artist to draw Dawnstar on panel, but Grell did the cover. Not sure which one designed her costume.
But you're right about Grell's costumes. They did SUCK quite hard, especially Cosmic Boy's and Night Girl's. Can't believe Ross used those costumes for his otherwise fabulous poster.
[ September 15, 2008, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: jimgallagher ]
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote: But you're right about Grell's costumes. They did SUCK quite hard, especially Cosmic Boy's and Night Girl's.
Lydda and Rokk were in love. These costumes were reflective of a couple not wanting to wear clothes around each other.
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
JimGallagher,
Thanks for the corrections! (I actually knew SGs first "pink binkini" was the last in the Action run, so I should have realized it wasn't Cockrum. I'd completely forgotten about KK, however.)
This just further absolves Cockrum, as I would put the pink bikini as a far worse fashion sin than than the KK costume (which IMHO was the least egregious on my list, I almost didn't even list it).
Nevertheless, good to see I'm not the only one to dislike Grell's additions...although, given Grell's penchant for nudity, I'd lay odds Dawnstar was his design (I have a vague recollection of reading that also, but we've already established that my recollections aren't all that reliable.)
To Silver Age Lad - If only someone had told them to "get a room", we might have been spared! (not sure that phrase was used yet in the 70s...)
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
Yes Dawnstar was a Grell design.
As for the Cockrum designs,I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder,as I think he was the best costume designer ever on the Legion,I would list Lightle as second,and Giffen below Grell.
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
Interesting discussion. Mike Grell was always my favorite artist and designed the costumes when I first saw the comic, so for me, he is at the top of the list. His debut as artist took place in issue #203, Massacre By Remote Control. He was told that in his very first issue a main character (Invisible Kid) was to be killed and that the fans would most likely blame him. There is an interesting forward by Mike Grell in the hard cover archive editions book #11 that addresses the issue. As for Saturn Girl, the pink bikini she wore was my favorite, as was Phantom Girl's bell bottom design. Again, probably because it was the first way I saw the characters. I really disliked Grell's make over of Cosmic Boy though. That was painful and I wish it had been dropped. Does this put me in the costume minority: most likely, but that's ok, it makes for good discussions.
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Evolution Has Failed: AS far as what's "iconic", I think it varies by Legionnaire...
FOR EXAMPLE, a few of Cockrum's outfits (Vi and Element Lad, specifically) did sort of have nothing to do with any other version of those costumes. Likewise, Colossal Boy's Silver Age suit looked like nothing since...definitely not "iconic".
Some Legionnaires have a consistent look going across their versions, others less so. Saturn Girl, for example, settled on a red or pink outfit with white down the center. The space bikini was the main exception - and it was a doozy. But Element Lad? Chameleon Boy? No common color scheme at all.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
So, I didn't realize people actually got worked up about costumes until I started reading message boards. I read these threads because they are interesting and to occasionally throw in a non-sequitor, like
You all'd laugh at just one scene of Brainy walking in low-riders.
Admit it.
[ September 16, 2008, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Grell's characters looked like fashion models and dressed like them, too. Obviously the intention was for sex to sell the book. How many of the covers of the time had scantily clad Legionnaires laid out across the page?!
I also love those looks. I think Grell did some sexy updates to Cockrum's designs. Were they functional? The answer has always been that this is the 30th century. They could be alien fabrics or fabrics that have technology that we don't have now.
Pink Bikini and Cosmic Corset however, are costumes that don't fit (heh...perfect pun intended!) the character.
Again, I like Giffen's post Great Darkness updates.
Posted by Jerry on :
In defense of the Cosmic Corset. It was a great statement on gender equality. By the time it was introduced most of the the girls were bare legged, bare armed and a few were showing more skin than costume. The boys were all covered up. Long sleeves and long pants. Finally a guy who was man enough to show some skin. It helped develop his personality. Rokk went from boy to man in as soon as he put that costume on, in my book. The sideburns helped.
Posted by Sketch Lad on :
Grell did seem to want to say that skin was in for both males and females, which I agree was a great statement on gender equality. However, I just don't think Cos or Imra seemed the type to go for that trend. I do think they looked pretty cool, though, and at the time, I didn't think it was off, but now, looking back on their overall characterization, it just doesn't make sense that they'd dress that way. Cockrum's design for Lightning Lad is a classic. Way better than the original, and he's covered neck to toe --- and Grell didn't mess with that!
Also, simply the way Cockrum and Grell drew the characters made them look older, more like men and women instead of kids. I wouldn't say it was the flesh baring costumes that did that.
Posted by Set on :
Grell was born to be drawing John Carter of Mars books, all sword and blaster swashbuckling adventures. He brought some of that sensibility to his Legion costumes, and while I didn't mind it, I do think he picked the wrong characters to dress up (or, undress). Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy have often seemed button-up and repressed, and their more classic costumes have had a uniform-like quality to them, in my eyes. Lightning Lad, on the other hand, seems more like the type to let it all hang out, and he's the founder who kept his shirt on!
Even then, the only male Legionnaire whom I could see wearing a mankini would be Ultra Boy or Sun Boy (both of whom stayed fully dressed), and the only female Legionnaire who really fits that style of dress is Dream Girl.
IMO, Tasmia and Projectra, given the cultures they come from, would be more likely to be clad in armor the likes of which Joan D'Arc would be impressed (or, in Projectra's case, a fancy neo-Victorian gown, for formal occasions!). Bikinis or one-pieces so low cut as to show off your Brazilian, combined with billowing capes? Not so much.
Then again, it seems that Blok wins the 'most exposed skin' contest, even if it wasn't really 'skin' that he was showing. Much like the Thing, he's got to run around half-dressed just to show off his fancy hide.
Posted by MLLASH on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery:
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: They should drop the costumes, in my opinion, and go for something more interesting. Something more 31st Century.
are you suggesting nude legionniares? because that would be AMAZING. i vote for this x100. how freaked out would villains be if a swarm of naked people came hurtling at them?
And some doubted the worth of my creation Nudelad!
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote: In defense of the Cosmic Corset. It was a great statement on gender equality.
Yet strangely enough we never saw a girl in one. IMHO Night Girl or Saturn Girl would have carried it off great- better than the bikini look.
Posted by PenaltyKillah on :
If midriffs are today's standard of "sexy"... I think it is possible for us to strip down to nothing by a century. Really.
And returning to the debate... hey, remember when Imra wore the bikini again in 5YL? Not cool. People should be allowed to wear something closer to their age.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I haven't read the whole thread yet but I find it wierd people want the classic costumes.
I just talked to someone this weekend who felt the same way as many here do. He was a big fan of the Levitz Legion and he said he can't get into this Legion because the costumes. Personally, I don't understand that.
I'm not a big fan of the new costumes but superheroes in general need new costumes. The Silver Age versions lasted way too long.
Posted by veryvery on :
you know, i don't know anyone that actually finds outfits with bare midriffs attractive. to me it just looks stupid and uncomfortable. super girl's outfit makes me very sad, for example.
indeed, a midriff is nice, in and of itself, and they are quite nice to be around when it's sexy time, but out in public it looks silly. by the same token, i think a shoulder or a hand can look very attractive. are people actually, TRULY pleased to see bare midriffs? are there really people that get excited and tantalized by a midriff?
if you are attracted to females, do you see a costume with a bare midriff and go "Oh, yes, i must BUY this, it's obviously going to be so hot"? like.. REALLY? sometimes i wonder if they think people buying comics are the girls gone wild crowd...
anyways. for sheer practicality, i liked the costumes in the reboot and the current era simply because they look more practical (ahhh tinya sort of looks silly with those bell bottoms but...) i LOVE the full bodied jumpsuit look. to me, it's best if the costumes aren't distracting, if they're a non entity. which, to me, means non sexualized costumes. you know, recently, scans daily had scans of that one issue of the search for ray palmer where there was that earth 11 where all the genders were reversed?
I actually went back and read it and i LOVED IT. what i found so interesting was how very NORMAL and presentable the justice leaguers looked that were female (ie, normally guy leaguers) and how ridiculous wonder man looked in diana's costume (even with it manned up a bit). i think sometimes an important exercise for costume creators should be to think about practicality.
in my experience, a lot of people are turned off by comics in general because of costuming (i bet a lot of american comics readers have problems with costuming in japanese comics, yes? same sort of deal), and a lot of girls i know in general shy away from anything that has a girl in a silly looking outfit (and i think that if you look critically, something that is intended to be 'sexy' for a certain demographic, looks absurd to a lot of people. have you ever seen something that's supposed to be pornographic or even just "sexy" that's not intended for your demographic? there's a string of abercrombie and fitch ads right now that are just naked male torsos (with no clothes actually...). these look silly, yes?
so... yeah. after rambling forever. i prefer less sexy costumes. it's annoying to have to explain to the unintiated "Yes, i know she looks like a prostitute, but she's not. she's got this sonic scream, it's really cool, no trust me. no really, she has a flower shop. no, i know she's wearing fishnets for no reason, i know, ok?". also, it's distracting!! it's hard to take someone seriously when they're wearing star covered wonder panties.
i always think that wonder woman must have come to the world of man by boat, walked onto the beach and saw all the people wearing bathing suits and gotten confused. "Oh, they dress like that in man's world, eh?"
but you know something weird is that drawn in certain styles, the same costume will look DRASTICALLY different. for example, power girls' had that boob window there for a long time, right? but way back in the day it never looked scandalous to me, it looked about as tawdry as a v-neck shirt. i've seen black canary wear the SAME OUTFIT and one artist has her looking very professional while another makes her look like street walker number 4. so..what i'm trying to say is that certain costumes in certain people's hands look better than others. hey, maybe if karl kerschl descended from heaven and drew chameleon boy's hideous early outfits i'd be all right with it? in Teen titans : year one i didn't think any of the old uniforms looked weird.
coipel's art made the archie, dumpy looking legionnaires look really cool and dramatic...SOMEHOW!
oh also when i said "evolution" i meant "revolution". not all changes are for the good, i agree.
Posted by kcekada on :
One of my biggest complains with the Gary Frank costumes is that he tried to do updated versions of the Silver Age costumes instead of updating the Cockrum or even Giffen era costumes.
Timber Wolf looks pathetic, as does Shrinking Violet and Lighning Lad (you can't improve upon the Cockrum version yet both Manapul and Frank tried and failed).
Phantom Girl, Colossal boy and Shadow Lass have costumes that are updated from the Cockrum era -- though Shady's is a bit too harsh. Gim's is just boring.
Night Girl looks ridiculous while Polar Boy has his best look ever.
If Geoff Johns does write a new Legion, I say either go back to the classics or have the new artist go back to the drawing board with these.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: There was no good reason to change the costumes after the Lightning Saga. I see it as a huge Editorial blunder to allow Frank to make these changes which are compounded by making Perez draw them in L3W...
It also doesn't help that Frank's designs are more dated and dreadful than the reboot or 3boot version combined.
Yeah, not letting George draw them in a classic style for L3W is a bit heart-breaking.
I do agree that editorial screwed the pooch when approving the new Legion costumes. Most people had just been introduced (some re-introduced) to the Legion in JLA and JSA. That's a lot of characters to remember, so DC allows the costumes to change -- and people are like WFT?! Stoopid!
Honestly, if they new L3W was coming up, they should have maintained the costumes from JLA/JSA.
Then if the "classic" Legion was going to stay around -- maybe get their own series -- that would have been the time to get an artist to update the costumes if needed. For the most part, though, Frank just didn't get these right.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by veryvery: boo hiss :/!! i know you guys love cockrum et al but... man those designs LOOK like the period they were made in. in fact, all of them do...
god, every time i hear this i think "poor gary frank". do you have any idea what kind of task it must have been to go "here, redesign all of these...
one of my favorite scenes in LO3W is where prime mimics fans by saying "i like their old costumes better". johns knows...
imagine your grandfather or even your DAD trying to draw what he thinks people will wear in the future. *hence tinya's horrible bell bottoms, eh?)
A few responses.
I can certainly empathize with people who don't like the 70s costumes -- they are from a different era, but I still say some of those Cockrum costumes would only need minor tweeks while Franks already look dated. I just think the timing of introducing new costumes was off.
Gary Frank asked if he could design costumes. He wasn't told to do it. So the blame or credit goes to him.
Superboy Prime may be a crackpot, but he has good taste.
Cockrum's Legion costume were somewhat a reflection of the mod-era clothing people were wearing in the late 60s and early 70s. Cockrum just incorporated thee into his Legion costumes -- which were a breath of fresh air back in the day. Bell bottoms were actually more popular after Tinya started wearing them. Around 1976, the wider the leg-openings were, the better.
Frank's costumes look like something guys in the Olympics or Tour De France guys would wear. It's a choice, but can't say I love it.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Infectious Drura: Strangely enough..the Legion costumes that I consider 'iconic' are the silver age costumes. The first incarnation of the Legion I ever read as a child was the Adventure Comics Legion so to me that is the 'real' Legion. And as a result I've never really liked the Cockrum/Grell costumes because they replaced "my Legion".
Strangely enough I think most of the Cockrum/Grell costumes are fugly. Full of over-gaudy clashing colours and horribly dated 70s design elements. I consider the Silver Age costumes to be classic and timeless...
I do wish people who love the 70s Legion would remember sometimes that their 'iconic' is another Legion fan's crappy unwanted re-designs.
Not arguing against your point, but it's ironic that your avatar is a Cockrum-created character.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Evolution Has Failed: That said: Grell's only additions (IMHO) SUCKED... As I recall they were: 1) Nearly naked Cos (the worst) 2) pantsless Colossal boy 3) Giant collar/Bruce Li Karate Kid. 4) His alterations of the Subs...
I did like Dawnstar (but she was new). From Cockrum, I did NOT like Saturn Girl... Pink bikini with thigh boots? You don't even have to see it, you can condemn it just by its description.
Couple corrections:
Cockrum actually created the Bruce Lee costume and discared it after one issue. Grell brought it back. I was surprised by this also, but pick up the 10th archives for proof.
Cockrum didn't design Saturn Girl's second costume -- a fan did. I loved this costume, but I can understand why some people didn't.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: Evolution Has Failed,
But you're right about Grell's costumes. They did SUCK quite hard, especially Cosmic Boy's and Night Girl's. Can't believe Ross used those costumes for his otherwise fabulous poster.
Ross is a Grell-era fan.
The only cosutme of Grell's that I liked was the yellow/green open-top one he gave to Chlorphyll Kid. I think it only appeared in one backup story.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Phantom Girl: Interesting discussion. Mike Grell was always my favorite artist and designed the costumes when I first saw the comic, so for me, he is at the top of the list. His debut as artist took place in issue #203, Massacre By Remote Control.
Well, the designs you loved were actually Cockrum's, so he should get some credit.
Grell designed the nearly naked costume for Cosmic Boy and Night Girl, the horrible shorty shorts and booties look for Colossal Boy and Dawnstar. He also reduced the amount of material in some of the girls' costumes.
Posted by Ram Boy on :
Well, I for one, have always loved Cosmic Boy's black and silver look. I've always thought it was way more masculine than any of his pink costumes. Saturn Girl's was also fun and sexy, and I still think that she and Rokk complimented each perfectly during that era; His costume black w/straight lines and hers pink w/curved lines.
Colossal Boy's costume sans leggings struck me as visually top heavy and awkward.
Posted by Beyonder-Prime, Champion of Life on :
You're 100% right, Jim. Furthermore, while I always have been very aware that that most of the Legionnaires changed their costumes at least once (having read them in German translation in a collection trade paperback, which had not only the Legion origin, but also the Lore of the Legion feature, the second part of the "Adult Legion" sequence, the "Revolt of the Girl-Legionnaires", the first Tyroc story, and three minor Bates/Grell stories), I also always thought that the "Disco" costumes of the Legion were "THE" Legion costumes, in much the same way I always thought that Batman's small bat in front of the full moon was "THE" most authentic, most true Batman symbol, even though there were others before it.
[ October 05, 2008, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Beyonder-Prime, Champion of Life ]
Posted by Beyonder-Prime, Champion of Life on :
quote:Originally posted by Ram Boy: Well, I for one, have always loved Cosmic Boy's black and silver look. I've always thought it was way more masculine than any of his pink costumes. Saturn Girl's was also fun and sexy, and I still think that she and Rokk complimented each perfectly during that era; His costume black w/straight lines and hers pink w/curved lines.
Right on, Ram Boy. I always wondered why people tend to think that era's Imra dressed like a tramp?
I mean, all I ever thought of that outfit was how strikingly beautyful it is...
And I remember well, from the first Tyrock story, that I was impressed by Cos' costume. (Meaning, no "Bitchdom" there, either.)
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
Posted by Phantom Girl on :
quote:Originally posted by kcekada:
quote:Originally posted by Phantom Girl: Interesting discussion. Mike Grell was always my favorite artist and designed the costumes when I first saw the comic, so for me, he is at the top of the list. His debut as artist took place in issue #203, Massacre By Remote Control.
Well, the designs you loved were actually Cockrum's, so he should get some credit.
Grell designed the nearly naked costume for Cosmic Boy and Night Girl, the horrible shorty shorts and booties look for Colossal Boy and Dawnstar. He also reduced the amount of material in some of the girls' costumes.
Ok, thank you both Mr. Grell and Mr. Cockrum!
Posted by kcekada on :
Ha ha!
Nice.
Admittedly, I wasn't crazy about Grell's art when Cockrum left. I think he was actually a better inker (he inked Cockrum's pencils for "Lost a Million Miles from Home" in Superboy 202. I think he inked his own work the first year or two.
I did come to like Grell's work in the mid 80s when he was doing the James Bond and Green Arrow prestige books. He certainly improved with age.
Posted by Uranus Lad on :
Interesting topic and something I've commented on before. I can certainly understand the appreciation for so called "classic versions of the Legion costumes but I really don't think there is an actual classic and I really don't understand the disdain for Frank's versions. True I don't find a few of them that appealing but I think he did a great job overall.
There have been many versions of Legion costumes over the decades (I can think at least 11). I've loved Cockrum's for it's swashbuckling gaudiness, Grell's for it's spaced-out sexiness, Giffen's for it's high-tech futurist take and during the 5YL for it's gritty utilitarianism, Kitson's for it's homage-to-the past coolnes, and I like Franks' for it's realistic, individual stylishness. Each in their own times has had something of merit and each is more or less a version on a general theme. Something I've always appreciated about the Legion is the ability or at least the potential to change and grow. Sure Superman or Batman's costumes are Iconic but even they have had their tweaks over the years. And certainly there have been fashion disasters in there. Of which I'd probably lump Manupal's version. Sorry but his costume designs don't seem particularly original to me aside from a few exceptions and generally they leave me flat but that's partially a personal stylistic preference. But really, that Saturn Girl costume? Ick!
The Legion represents youth and the future. Youth set trends, change fashion and recycle aspects of the past. And the future is dynamic and changing and rife for speculation. To me, a graphic story with youth and the future at it's heart should represent just that and be readily able to change with the times. So I would definitely vote no on "classic" costumes whatever they may be.
[ October 16, 2008, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Uranus Lad ]
Posted by Beyonder-Prime, Champion of Life on :
Generally, you're not wrong, U lad. But pretty costumes shouldn't be replaced by outfits not only far less beautyful then the Disco costumes, but who also were far more dated from the very panel onwards, in which they first apeared. And that's the problem with both the ACTION and Giffen: The Giffen costumes were, really just lame Sixties clones, who desperately tryed to look "new", and "modern" and exiting-- kinda like an 90 years old trying to impressing your children by making "kewl". And the ACTION costumes look like a sick cross of generic late 80s and mid-90s uniforms.
My point is: "Never change something just for change's sake." And, indeed, both DC and Marvel would have done well to live after those words: it would've spared us Legion fans that obscene ThreeBoot, fer instance. We HAD a fully functional Legion, after DC had managed to restore the Legionnaires after dunking them into that wet, stinkin' pile of skunk's dung, which was 5YL. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the ReBoot Legion, except it's last creative team...
Posted by Beyonder-Prime, Champion of Life on :
quote:Originally posted by imskian78: With all of the rumours out there that the current run of Legion is ending with issue 50 and a relaunch of the Adventure/Levitz Legion on the horizon I would like to make the case for the Legion to return to their classic, iconic costumes of the 70's 80's and 90's. I know we have all discussed this at different times over the years but the time is NOW. 1. Just think how the Legion would be better known if their costumes stayed with maybe a little updating to the general public. 2. Alex Ross when drawing/painting the Legion makes the point on how dynamic the Legion looks in those costumes. 3. Dave Cockrum was...the best..super hero costume designer.. he just got it perfect or near perfect with The Legion and The Xmen. In memory of him if not anything else, the Legion should return to the look they had for many many years! 4. Some characters have never looked better than in their costumes of the Cockrum era.. you can't improve on profection. Adding pockets, bags, Legion belts..etc.. distracts from the icon.
So Mr. Johns...please consider this and let's complete the rebirth of everyones favorite Legion with their Iconic visual so wonderfully done by COckrum/Grell.
I agree on almost all points, except the Legion belts. They would serve as a wonderful unifieing element, and the belt pouches would serve only to enhance the costumes, and make them even more interesting for the children. (Except on Imra's costume, of course. On her outfit, there's just no place to stick the belt - and it's pouches -, and it'd clash dreadfully with a costume that is already sheer perfection in itself...)
Posted by jimgallagher on :
I do sort of hate the new sleevless costumes several of the male Legionnaires are wearing. They just seem kind of effeminate to me. They remind me of those super heroine drag costumes Prince Projectur and Saturn Lad wore.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I do sort of hate the new sleevless costumes several of the male Legionnaires are wearing. They just seem kind of effeminate to me. They remind me of those super heroine drag costumes Prince Projectur and Saturn Lad wore.
Oh yeah. The wife-beater look is really kind of obnoxious. Yeah, they've got shoulders. I kind of assumed that's how their arms were attached to their torsos. I don't actually need to *see* them, anymore than I need to see anyone's hips.
I'd go less with 'effeminate' ('cause Steve Lightle is probably my favorite Legion artist, and his male Legionnaires looked pretty darn effeminate...), and more with the sleeveless dudes looking kinda 'low-class' or 'trashy' (although the pseudo-mullets on Garth and Brainy might be reinforcing that notion...).
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I do sort of hate the new sleevless costumes several of the male Legionnaires are wearing. They just seem kind of effeminate to me. They remind me of those super heroine drag costumes Prince Projectur and Saturn Lad wore.
They do seem effeminate to me also. Not sure why, as there are costume designs I've seen on character in the past (Neal Adam's Megalith and Marvel's classic Hyperion come to mind) that actually seemed very masculine.
I'm also not a fan of belts used to unify the costumes. A belt often doesn't work with a costume, and forcing it onto a design looks bad.
Posted by future king on :
I say the creators of the new post 50th anniversary Legion go with entirely different costumes for each and every legionnaire. It would add to the overall "newness" of the series.
Go big or go home!
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but of all other heroes, the Legion might be the only one where it actually makes sense to have "classic" looking costumes. The team (especially the 3boot) *is meant to be* a throwback in its very ideology. As long as the team's basis is that it was inspired by the classic DC heroes, and especially if they keep the "Lad" and "Lass" names, then it totally falls in line that they'd have retro costumes. Why would they draw inspiration from 21st century heroes (especially the Big3 who have barely changed looks since their beginnings) in every way other than fashion?
Posted by JBLegionnaire on :
I Completely Agree ! No One Drew Better than Dave or Mike ! The Past 15 Years of jAgGeD SkEtChy 'sTyLe GrAfFiTi 'art' has been HORRIBLE to say the least ! No Wonder Sales Fluctauted So Much in the 80-90-00s There are also some Real LIfe Photos of Legionnaries for a Film or Movie which I'd like the LInks to as I can't find them and are like my avatar photo:" Please send me a link to the rest at jbfilmdirector@yahoo.ca Thankyou !LONG LIVE THE LEGION !
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: [QUOTE]Originally posted by imskian78: With all of the rumours out there that the current run of Legion is ending with issue 50 and a relaunch of the Adventure/Levitz Legion on the horizon I would like to make the case for the Legion to return to their classic, iconic costumes of the 70's 80's and 90's. I know we have all discussed this at different times over the years but the time is NOW.
1. Just think how the Legion would be better known if their costumes stayed with maybe a little updating to the general public.
2. Alex Ross when drawing/painting the Legion makes the point on how dynamic the Legion looks in those costumes.
3. Dave Cockrum was...the best..super hero costume designer.. he just got it perfect or near perfect with The Legion and The Xmen. In memory of him if not anything else, the Legion should return to the look they had for many many years!
4. Some characters have never looked better than in their costumes of the Cockrum era.. you can't improve on profection. Adding pockets, bags, Legion belts..etc.. distracts from the icon.
So Mr. Johns...please consider this and let's complete the rebirth of everyones favorite Legion with their Iconic visual so wonderfully done by COckrum/Grell. I agree 100 percent,the Dave Cockrum costumes as this picture by Alex Ross proves are still the best The Legion ever wore.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: I do sort of hate the new sleevless costumes several of the male Legionnaires are wearing. They just seem kind of effeminate to me. They remind me of those super heroine drag costumes Prince Projectur and Saturn Lad wore.
Well, I'd like to see everyone cover up a little more, personally. It's funny how so many guys don't think twice about Dawnstar as the eternal Cosmo Girl, but the minute a male has some skin showing they all go on and on about how "effeminate" or "trashy" it looks.
[snerk]
Cry me a river, Guys. Welcome to my world.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
While I have no problem with the costumes, it's weird.
I hear people complain about the outfits. Then I hear them complain about the characterization. It makes me wonder how Johns' Legion stories are getting such good reviews.
Posted by Arm Fall Off Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: While I have no problem with the costumes, it's weird.
I hear people complain about the outfits. Then I hear them complain about the characterization. It makes me wonder how Johns' Legion stories are getting such good reviews.
Easy. He's Geoff Johns, savior of DC. It's like Amway. Repeat it enough and you believe it. (Sorry Amway people).
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Little thought that came my way when I was thinking about if Garth, Rokk, and Imra were in Trinity. With the way Garth and Imra look now, Garth with his whole stubble thing and Imra's short hair, anyone wonder what it would look like if they dressed as Batman and Catwoman?
Yes, my imagination works like that. Believe it or not.
(But no Joel Schumacher! And I don't care if I misspelled the name, that man doesn't deserve the correction!)
Posted by Hypno Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Arm Fall Off Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: While I have no problem with the costumes, it's weird.
I hear people complain about the outfits. Then I hear them complain about the characterization. It makes me wonder how Johns' Legion stories are getting such good reviews.
Easy. He's Geoff Johns, savior of DC. It's like Amway. Repeat it enough and you believe it. (Sorry Amway people).
I can agree with this to a point. Everyone seems happy for the *potential* inherent in what Johns is doing. Regardless of what he has done already and is doing now, the Action Legion has momentum, prominence, and the potential to have really fun adventures.
Plus, I think everyone is happy to have an action-heavy Legion in the wake of Mark Waid's severely action-weak run.
Posted by kcekada on :
I know we've commented on Gary Frank's new uniforms before, but with a new series about to debut (and those stomach-churning outfits still very much in evidence), I think the rags the Legion are currently wearing bear discussion.
Hopefully, the new artist has some costume-design skills --- because the Legion looks about as worse than they ever have in history -- maybe even worse than those drab gray uniforms they wore in the Giffen run.
Okay, one or two of the new outfits aren't horrible -- the best (IMHO) are those worn by Polar Boy and Dawnstar. Phantom Girl's isn't offensive -- that's the best I can say for it. Wildfire's transparent suit is kinda cool, but I don't think Drake would want to wear something that underscore the fact that he's energy in a suit (I'm sure it makes Dawnstar's stomach curdle when she sees all that energy).
Just about everything else is butt ugly though --too many unnecessary additions and colors. And what's with Imra's butch do? Ayla and Brin had some great outfits in the 70s and 80s -- and even in the W/K series -- what a step backward these new clothes are. I wish GF had let well enough alone -- and just used the outfits shown in the Lightning Saga -- but he didn't. I know changing costumes for a team the size of the Legion can be confusing, but maybe new outfits can be introduced gradually.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Shady might as well be nude! And did Lydda really need hooterholes where her hooter's eyes are?
Posted by cleome on :
I like Imra with short hair. I've seen enough impractical flowing locks on comic book females to last me this lifetime and the one after it.
Posted by kcekada on :
I wouldn't mind Imra with short hair -- if it didn't look so butch and unstyled. It looks like she just started hacking it off. Hmmm... maybe there is a story there.
But her outfit is just so clunky with the knee pads and such. I'd like to see a modern, streamlined design. Something that says cool future not Mad Max.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
There was no need to change Jo's classic costume!
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: There was no need to change Jo's classic costume!
Well certainly not to the current multi-colored, sleeveless mess.
Posted by Blacula on :
The Frank designs are some of my favourite-ever Legion costumes.
Even the ones I didn't initially like (Wildfire, Shrinking Violet, a couple of others) have really grown on me.
IMO they're all a perfect blend of their traditional/more famous outfits and a more interesting/futuristic design. I love all the hints of colour and busy lines all over the place.
They must be hell to draw though.
The only one I don't like is Sensor Girl's which was obviously designed by some inferior artist in order to bring it in line with Frank's signiature look for the rest of the team. Why they bothered with her and not the rest of the 21st century team though, I don't know.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Shady might as well be nude! And did Lydda really need hooterholes where her hooter's eyes are?
Ahem. Just what is the problem with Hooter Holes?
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Ahem. Just what is the problem with Hooter Holes?
You can't see the nipples. That's the darn problem!
Posted by Dev Em on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: There was no need to change Jo's classic costume!
I would agree, but I liked the Immonen version in the 5YL books.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I actually really liked Giffen's idea of putting Jo in a leather jacket!
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Set:
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Ahem. Just what is the problem with Hooter Holes?
You can't see the nipples. That's the darn problem!
Perhaps, like bare-breasted reboot Legionnaires Sensor and Kinetix, she doesn't have any!
Posted by razsolo on :
I don't mind Imra's look too much...back in the day when the Time Trapper gave her a nasty haircut she kinda rocked the short hair look a bit - and I kind of like the adjustment to her costume as well.
I like Wildfire's new LOOK, I just don't think I like it ON WILDFIRE. I'm with kcekada about him not wanting his energy self being all on display like that...unless he has moved to a point where he is okay with himself as an energy being now, which might be a decent character evolution actually..
But in general I don't really like the costumes. I HATE Polar Boy's ice hair and arm, as well as the new togs for Cos, Garth and Ayla, Dawnstar, Brainy...a lot of it I think is trying to fix what wasn't broke in the first place...
So yeah, I am hoping they have some costume redesigns too soon...
Posted by cleome on :
I actually like some of the flourishes and "trim" on Imra's costumes and others. Left to my own devices, I generally prefer simple, streamlined designs. Still, I've never liked every costume from every era and I find most of these to be pretty okay.
As usual, I'm just sick of all the T&A on display from female characters, though. That's nothing new.
Posted by Blacula on :
razsolo just reminded me that I hate Polar Boy's ice hair too! Really, really hate it. Is that a Frank thing though? I feel like I remember seeing Lightle or someone draw him with ice hair too.
I don't like that Chlorophyll Kid's hair has gone from blond to brown either but that's kinda a minor thing (like all the rest of our complaints aren't ).
I normally hate T&A in my comics too but I'm not really seeing the evidence of it with these costumes that everyone else is seeming to. Let's see, which femmes are showing skin -
Dawnstar - that's nothing new. And if anything her Frank costume reveals LESS skin than her original did. Night Girl - I love the owl cut-outs. They're not that big are they? And am I getting her confused with Laurel Kent or did Lydda not once wear a much more skimpy outfit than this one? Shadow Lass - this is one of my least favourite of Frank's designs so I'd have no problem if they were to change it up a bit. But it's hardly out of character for Tasmia to be wearing next to nothing as her outfit. At least she's legal now. Remember those few bits of dental floss and a button up crotch protector that Lightle had the Reboot Umbra in? THAT was tasteless! Phantom Girl - Well this is fairly tame by super-hero standards isn't it? And not much more revealing than her 'traditional' outfit. This is another one I'm not in love with though so power to them if they want to change it up.
Is there anyone I'm missing? Four moderate examples of T&A doesn't seem to be much to get worked up about.
Posted by Set on :
I preferred Lightle's Polar Boy with shiny headplate (all Merlin-from-Excalibur-esque) to the spiky ice-hair (I think that was a Giffen addition, actually).
Lydda has indeed worn much, much less, as has Imra, for that matter.
My real quibble would be the lack of variety. I'm not offended by boobholes (or bare arms on the guys), I'm just annoyed at how many of them have started showing up (and, in Sensor Girl's case, in a ridiculous places, since her costume covered every inch of her skin), as if it's the new default Legion costume.
I don't like the Legion in uniforms, but all mixed up, reflecting the styles of a dozen worlds, some of which, like the Talokkians, apparently are quite liberating, others of which, like the Daxamites, are quite staid.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I'm with set with wanting variety. In fact, I like the idea of Legionnaires wearing "costumes" that are more like standard examples of ordinary clothing on whatever planet they come from.
I don't mind the ice-hair on Polar Boy nearly as much as the ice-arm.
Posted by Set on :
Add to inane threads ideas;
What else was ripped off of Polar Boy and has been replaced with ice?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmmm... maybe the ice hair is meant to cover up the fact that he's actually going bald?
Posted by duck458 on :
The worst isn't a Frank costume. The worst is Mon-El's Something-Like Superman costume.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Polar Boy's hair is from Lightle and Laroque, it's not a Frank thing.
In regards to 'sexiness' and skin, all of the females wore less clothing in the 70's. Not that its relative to what people who dislike TnA are saying; but its an interesting observation.
Posted by cleome on :
Really, Cobie? When I take into account the Spears Virus and how it's infected pretty much every comic book out there, I have a hard time believing that.
Not that it matters, I guess. The whole dissymetry of it is just effing tiresome to me.
Posted by MLLASH on :
What I don't get is why so there is so much opposition to guys with sleeveless shirts.
Posted by cleome on :
I don't get it, either MLLASH. Women's navels and bare legs are everywhere, but a little male forearm shows itself and it's the end of the world.
It still makes me laugh that the closest thing to a male exhibitionist costume-wise in Threeboot was the guy who wasn't supposed to be a guy. Posted by Blacula on :
Me three Lash! I think the sleeve-less arms are a hot new look for the guys.
Though I don't think the T&A of the Legion girls is that extreme at the moment I definitely do think there's a double standard when it comes to what guys and girls can wear in comics.
Just look at Rokk and Imra's 70s outfits. People think of Imra's barely-there costume as a classic while Rokk's barely-there outfit is an abomination in most people's eyes. Both are pretty awesome costumes IMO.
I'd like to see the guys showing at least as much skin as the girls in the future to even things up a bit. Colossal Boy most definitely couldn't pull off the shorts look back in the 70s but I think a few of the other guys could.
And if Tyroc doesn't come back wearing next to nothing it will be a travesty!
Posted by razsolo on :
re: Polar Boy's hair, I think it's the way it's drawn....when Giffen exposed his hair and we saw that it was all spikey, I kind of took that to be like it was normal hair that was covered in sleety snow.
Every artist from Frank on though seems to be drawing it as a distinct collection of huge ice crystals, and the effect kind of looks (to me at least) like something ripped off of Dragonball-Z.
In other costume-judging news, not that she's done much, but I don't like the way Vi seems to have been girlied-up again. I actually really liked her harsh look after the whole Yera thing, and it's not like it made her unattractive. Every woman doesn't need to look like she's one of Britney's backup dancers...
and the last bit I will chuck in for now is that while I get that it's very expected by now for Shady to be wearing next to nothing, I actually really liked her black bodysuit with the gold bracers from the 80's. I thought it made her look really classy.
Oh no wait, the last bit is...totally agree on Mon-El's reversed Superman togs. It is lazy to the max, and it makes my eyes vomit every time I look at it.
Okay, I will really shut up now (for a bit).
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by razsolo: In other costume-judging news, not that she's done much, but I don't like the way Vi seems to have been girlied-up again. I actually really liked her harsh look after the whole Yera thing,
Loved her new short-haired look (and Laurel Kents, and a few other short-haired Legion-adjacent femmes). Why they took that away and made it much uglier and gave it to Imra, I'll never understand!
I liked Kitson's interpretation of Imra, with her hair just casually pinned out of her way, and looking unkempt, suggesting that, as a telepath, she didn't give a rat's bum about physical appearance or makeup or hairstylists, and was more impressed by the 'appearance' of someone's *mind* than how many hours they put in front of the mirror.
I kinda like that idea, that different Legionnaires, from different worlds, might have very different standards of beauty, and that Imra, from a world where the body is but a shell to carry the mind around, the beauty of someone's mind would be paramount, while their body would be just the packaging that carries the good stuff around. Under this sort of assumption, judging someone as attractive by the appearance of their body (or their hair, makeup, etc.) would be like declaring a novel a masterpiece because it has a shiny cover.
quote: and the last bit I will chuck in for now is that while I get that it's very expected by now for Shady to be wearing next to nothing, I actually really liked her black bodysuit with the gold bracers from the 80's. I thought it made her look really classy.
That sort of costume (and Imra's uniform-looking outfit) really made sense when costumes are increasingly being referred to as having armor like properties (like the X-Men's costumes, or the Shooterboot Legion outfits) to dampen incoming kinetic impact or diffuse energy attacks.
Putting sensible energy-absorbent/impact-dispersing cloth on Imra or Shady's classic bikini costumes would just mean that after the grenade went off, there'd be a pair of boobies, a crotch and some feet left on the ground...
On the other hand, Shady does look darn good in tiny little strips of cloth and metal. Making some kludgy half-arsed decision that her darkness generating powers help to protect her against energy attacks (by absorbing / negating energy striking her flesh) might be a suitable 'excuse' for her dressing like Dejah Thoris, Princess of Mars.
Imra's got no excuse. Tinya is pretty much impervious to harm. Laurel Kent has an excuse to wander around in butt-floss. Dawnstar's body is more or less invulnerable to the heat and friction of lightspeed acceleration, which probably means she doesn't have a glass jaw. But Imra should dress in something that helps protect her not-invulnerable Titanian hide!
quote: Oh no wait, the last bit is...totally agree on Mon-El's reversed Superman togs.
I much preferred Mon-El's loose-fitting outfit. Element Lad and Lightning Lad can and do look fine in skin-tight one-piece outfits that leave little to the imagination, but Mon-El's always been a classic in a roomier less in-your-face outfit.
I liked it because it felt *old-fashioned,* and, since Mon-El is 1000 years behind the times, I kinda liked that he wasn't running around in a spandex union suit like the 'cool kids.' . . I'm kinda not loving the Timber Wolf / Ayla reunion, because it feels like it's somehow unacceptable for a Legion lady to be un-paired-up with someone. Violet still seems to be single, and Projectra is single, again, thanks to the re-killing-off of Karate Kid, but I've always felt like it was perfectly fine for Sun Boy or Chameleon Boy to be single (or even big ol' sluts, in Dirk's case), but unacceptable for a Legion lady to not have a boyfriend for any length of time, even if the relationship is one that's pretty much impossible (Drake and Dawny, Blok and Mysa). Dream Girl was partnered off before she even joined the team, and Projectra may as well have been, as Shooter seemed to have her and Val in mind as a couple when he introduced them.
Even relatively new characters, like Gazelle, aren't in the comic for one issue before their are signs that they are going to be hooked up (with Invisible Lyle, in her case).
I have this sneaking suspicion that the only reason Brin and Ayla are a couple again is to negate any possibility that a fan will see that Violet and Ayla are both 'single,' and suggest that it's because they are a couple.
Less 'character development for Brin and Ayla' and more 'eliminate any possibility that fans will think that Salu and Ayla are a couple!'
[ April 16, 2010, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by lil'rhino on :
I think Rokk, Imra and Dawnstar look great. I like the facial hair on Brin, but I really haven't paid much attention to his outfit. Nothing can match Cockrum's design for Lightning Lad, although I'm absolutely lovin' his hair! I don't mind Shady's bikini, just because it shows off her incredibly beautiful blue skin! The stilleto's must go, though. Lydda's faboo in skintight black, I suppose the hooter-holes are a bit of overkill. Cham looks fine. Brainy just needs to remove the coat once in a while. Gim and Ayla look fine to me. I love, love, love Wildfire's transparent containment suit. I gotta double-check all the others to comment on them.
Posted by cleome on :
Set wrote:
[snip]
quote:...I liked it because it felt *old-fashioned,* and, since Mon-El is 1000 years behind the times, I kinda liked that he wasn't running around in a spandex union suit like the 'cool kids.'...
Looking back over some old scans online, though, it's obvious that a lot of artists drew the costume almost as a leotard that bagged at the wrists and shins, anyway. Some of them did the same thing to Brainy. A lot of artists just can't/won't break the habit of avoiding drapery.
In that light, it doesn't matter so much to me whether the old look comes back or not.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Hmmm... maybe the ice hair is meant to cover up the fact that he's actually going bald?
Maybe Tharrians were bald all along. On a hot planet, going without hair might actually be more comfortable.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: In regards to 'sexiness' and skin, all of the females wore less clothing in the 70's. Not that its relative to what people who dislike TnA are saying; but its an interesting observation.
Not completely true.
Violet's costume was downright conservative (and her best to date IMHO). And Phantom Girl only showed a bit of skin via the peepholes on her sleeves and chest. Dream Girl and Light Lass really didn't show any more (or less) skin in the 70s than in the 60s. Imra's was quite a departure, but it was kinda cool to see a fan-designed outfit. Shady's was skimpier under Cockrum, but really shrunk when Grell drew it.
I don't think it was the amount of skin as much as the unique design sense that really caught on with the fans.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: What I don't get is why so there is so much opposition to guys with sleeveless shirts.
Too many of these for one reason. Just as there were too many bare midriffs in Kitson's designs.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: I like the facial hair on Brin, but I really haven't paid much attention to his outfit. Nothing can match Cockrum's design for Lightning Lad, although I'm absolutely lovin' his hair!
I can live with the hair, but the Cockrum design should never have been changed -- sacrilege on Frank's part!
Brin's outfit is a POS (piece of ....). They should either redesign it or bring back the 70s version -- or even the Steve Lightle version from the 80s.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I always thought the Lightle version was a step backward
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
I did think the spiked belt was a bit much...
Posted by Blacula on :
I think all of Brin's costumes have been great. And (other than Furball and Threeboot) they've all been so similar to each other that I can't see how someone could passionately like one of them while disliking another.
And are the short sleeves really that prevalent on this team? How many guys have them? Brin, Garth, Jacques, Jo... is that it? 4 out of about 18-20 guys on this team. That doesn't seem like a glut to me.
And if short-sleeves make them look a little different to most of the other super-heroes you see in comics then all the better IMO. The Legionnaires should look a little different. They're 10 centuries in the future and the more futuristic and progressive and interesting their costumes look the better I can buy that concept.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid: I did think the spiked belt was a bit much...
I believe that was Perez' design. Lightle's came right after and rocked!!
Posted by kcekada on :
Yeah, Perez had the spiky belt with a wolfshead buckle -- and top that opened down to the navel. It was an okay outfit, but I didn't like when the restored Brin's face to looking normal.
The Giffen bland orange/grey pajamas outfit followed that. Didn't like it.
Lightle's design showed a bit more imagination.
The Gary Frank design uses too many Silver Age elements that were better left to the 1960s.
Posted by Chemical King on :
My personal opinion is that the only really terrible change with Franks new costumes is the sleeveless look on some of the guys. This looks really ridiculous.
As for the girls, they dressed very sexily for decades, since Cockrum and Grell. Of course, this might not make much sense in a story technical way, but come on - those are superheroines, and they are supposed to be sexy by default Phantom Girl looks good, Shady looks good (never was a fan of her but I dig her new bikini), Jeckie looks good now her mask is off - the only female costumes I do not really like are Aylas (somehow, she has no look at all in this) and Dawnstars (the bolero jacket is not my cup of tea).
I can imagine that if there would have been an Internet back then when Imra started to wear her pink bikini, there would have been a heated debate about it. Nowadays, it's a classic. And anyway, the only thing more common in the Legion than constant reboots is constant change of costumes - so if you don't like one, hey, don't bother, there are pretty good chances it will be gone this time next year ;
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Chemical King: I can imagine that if there would have been an Internet back then when Imra started to wear her pink bikini, there would have been a heated debate about it. Nowadays, it's a classic.
Back in the day, between the bikini and the hair, she looked like the poster of Farrah Fawcett on my wall, which was cool. (30ish years later, wow, that's not a great picture!)
Nowadays, I've played enough superhero games that I can't imagine a non-invulnerable character wearing anything that doesn't protect them from bullets... I'm cool with Supergirl and Laurel Kent (or even Phantom Girl, who is effectively 'invulnerable,' or Dawnstar who has been described by writers who don't seem to know any better as having an 'invulnerable body' as shorthand for her ability to withstand pretty much any environment or acceleration) wearing some funky stuff, and, by this stage, I'm pretty much used to Shady wearing impractical outfits (maybe her ability to negate light gives her some low-level protection against energy in general? Maybe Talokkians are thick-skinned, from their harsh desert-world? I'm willing to concede a certain level of practicality for hawtness!).
But Saturn Girl doesn't only look better, IMO, in a full uniform (one that gives off both an authoritarian and perhaps even subtly intimidating 'Psi Corps' vibe), it just makes sense for her to dress intelligently, since she's one of the smartest and most serious (and experienced) Legionnaires.
Even if Lu, Violet, Imra, Ayla, etc. dress sensibly, the Legion has plenty of femmes whose powers can protect them, capable of providing the fan service, while not looking like the noob who brought a knife to a gun-fight.
Same applies for the dudes. Blok can let it all hang out in his blue trunks of space, while Cosmic Boy should keep his Dr Frankenfurter stuff in the closet.
(Now I want to see a picture of Kid Quantum II, complete with 'big hair' dressed up as Magenta, alongside Cos-as-Frankenfurter... The Rokky Horror Legion Show!)
[ April 27, 2010, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by kcekada on :
Over at the DC Board, a few people commenting on the first issue were displeased with the outfits.
I didn't expect these to change in the first issue. And I think DC might be wise to job the designs out to someone known for costume design (though no one comes to mind at the moment). Or maybe have a fan contest!
I hope that if new uniforms are introudced, they're done slowly -- not all at once.
Posted by Power Boy on :
technically they don't need clothes at all as the flight rings offer enough environmental protection to survive in space.
Posted by Set on :
The Legion of Super-Streakers!
Join Tellus and Cham in the great nudist revolution!
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
quote:Originally posted by kcekada:
quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: I like the facial hair on Brin, but I really haven't paid much attention to his outfit. Nothing can match Cockrum's design for Lightning Lad, although I'm absolutely lovin' his hair!
I can live with the hair, but the Cockrum design should never have been changed -- sacrilege on Frank's part!
Brin's outfit is a POS (piece of ....). They should either redesign it or bring back the 70s version -- or even the Steve Lightle version from the 80s.
How about a combination of both,I give you the perfect Timber Wolf Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
I should probably let you guys now, for future reference, when I start writing comics Garth WILL be wearing the Gary Frank costume.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: I disagree. Tyroc is not making note of Brainy's unusual behavior. In fact, he's indicating that things like that are what he hated about being a Legionnaire--that is, he's acting as though Brainy was always like that.
Also, Tyroc's costume is ridiculous. It looks like Celeste as a Darkstar; bald head and red color scheme with white highlights.
Good call Ken .... I was actually thinking "Darkstar" but said "Manhunter" in my post about Tyroc's costume ... my bad. I'm glad we agree that he looks ridiculous. Maybe his comment about his transuit means that costume is just a temp and we can expect to see a better one than that. I have to say it IS good to see him in action again though!
So Mon and Shady split up ... huh! That makes me sad. Well I'm sure we'll get a better explanation this issue as to why Shady "dumped" him. I bet its only a temporary situation though.
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
Costumes come and go in the Legion,like traffic,If it was up to me I'd had them stop with the Classic Cockrum duds,with a few exceptions.
Glad to have Tyroc back though,even if he looks like Ferrin Colos.
Posted by imskian78 on :
Ok...we are all a little upset with the legion's current costumes. Other than Dave Cockrum and early Giffen is there anyone who gets the future look of our team??? I am also going to join the band wagon and say I also do not like Tyroc's new look but THRILLED to have him back! Come on keep them simple..based on the Cockrum look but updated for 2010 and get rid of those Legion belt buckles..hate them...these people are individuals from different planets that for years never had those things. Let the flight ring be the only "L" thing. Shrinking Violet's current costume is the worst...put her back in the Cockrum costume in violet ala Giffen circa issue 301-304.
Posted by future king on :
I bet if Mike Grell was in charge of designing costumes for the 2010 Legion we would see some interesting and pretty cool designs. I mean the man has still got it ... just pick up a copy of this month's Giant Sized X-Man Forever #1 and you'll see what I mean. Grell certainly has amazing talent in abundance. I have always LOVED when he's inked his own pencils as well.
Plus it would be so awesome to have the man that drew the series almost 40 years ago be the one designing costumes for the same team in the here and now.
Oh well, I can dream can't I?
Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
Are any of these to your liking, Imiskian. As you can see, I've been messing around with the original Grell design.
Put me in the camp of wishing they stayed with the Cockrum designs,we have seen the rest now bring back the best.
Steve Lightle did some great designs as well, and I to hate the belt buckles.
Right on Future King,I didn't even know about Giant Sized X-Man Forever #1, until I seen it at the comic book store, Grell, Imperial Guard, Sold!
I Think DC should go a step further, and have their stable of artists design a bunch of different costumes for the Legionnaires, and let us fans vote on the ones we like best.
Posted by Set on :
Those blown up pictures of Tyroc are cool. That thing I thought was hair (or headgear) turns out to just be a funky shadow!
Posted by lil'rhino on :
quote:Originally posted by imskian78: Ok...we are all a little upset with the legion's current costumes.
I'm fine with the current costumes. When did I say I was upset??
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
What is all this stuff about the age and the costumes.. Shadow Lass look beautiful in this Cockrum Style. I don't want The legion of Super-nuns or the super-mummys. In addition there are other girls who always were very covered....like Luornu, Violet, Lydda (except in the Mike Grell era), Tinya... The sexy ones always were Nura, Jeckie, Tasmia and Imra in the pik bikini.
Posted by cleome on :
I also like Tyroc's new look.
Now if we could just get rid of Yera's hair... Posted by cleome on :
I also think most of the current costumes are all right. Certainly most of the newer ones are no more ridiculous than some of their predecessors. Maybe I've just mellowed in my old age or something.
Posted by Kent on :
IMHO, there have been better ones, but the current ones are generally not particularly bad. They could be better, but I can't say I hate the current looks.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Dan Jurgens sometimes has a knack for good costume designs.
Not many masters out there today like Gil Kane or Dave Cockrum, but I think it's more of artists not often getting the chance to do it more like they used to.
Posted by Blacula on :
I generally really, really love the current Frank costumes. That said, Phantom Girl, Sensor Girl, Chameleon Boy and Ultra Boy's are my bottom four so if someone wanted to change them up a bit I wouldn't object.
I do hate Tyroc's new costume though. Really, really hate it. I hardly ever go on Facebook but I'm tempted to do so just to ask Paul to change it. Tyroc used to stand out in a crowd in his eye-popping outfit. His current look is an insult to the word 'boring'.
Posted by Blacula on :
^ I like Yera's hair.
Just goes to show - pleasing comics fans = impossible!
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I actually like Tyroc's costume as well and it's great seeing him in action again.
Looking forward to reading #2!
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress: What is all this stuff about the age and the costumes.. Shadow Lass look beautiful in this Cockrum Style. I don't want The legion of Super-nuns or the super-mummys. In addition there are other girls who always were very covered....like Luornu, Violet, Lydda (except in the Mike Grell era), Tinya... The sexy ones always were Nura, Jeckie, Tasmia and Imra in the pik bikini.
The problem is that she's pathetic, just like the TV/movie/music stars who wear clothes that are not even appropriate for teens. Pathetic and slutty, imo.
It's especially hard after Tasmia had the beautiful early costume in the reboot and the interesting costume in Prime. Even her origial boot costume for this era was beautiful and appropriate (black body suit).
This suit is sexist to the maximum. The only thing worse would be a G-string. Posted by dancelad on :
Its so great to have Tyroc back! I didn't really like the costume at first, but the more i see it the more its growing on me. I guess i was just hoping for more of a throwback to his 70's costume, but hey, i'll take what i can get. As for Shady's costume, Tasmia is probably just from a culture that is not so hung up on covering one's body or repressing sensuality. Its kind of like how girls can walk around topless on the beach in most of Europe and no one thinks anything of it, where here in the states its considered unlawful and sinful. If people are thinking she looks slutty or inappropriate because of a skimpy or tight outfit, its probably just from their own puritanical beliefs, which of course they're entitled to . I personally love shady's skimpier outfits. I think she looks like a powerful, athletic woman similar to how wonder woman looks strong and powerful in her uniform. Anyway, I'm loving Levitz' Legion so far! Cant wait 'til Wednesday!
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
dancelad:
quote:...If people are thinking she looks slutty or inappropriate because of a skimpy or tight outfit, its probably just from their own puritanical beliefs, which of course they're entitled to...
Gee, Thanks!
Wake me when Lar and Jo are also strolling around wearing next to nothing, okay?
[ETA: The "topless on the beach" argument really only works if one assumes that battle conditions are customarily similar to an afternoon relaxing on the beach.]
[ June 20, 2010, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Wake me when Lar and Jo are also strolling around wearing next to nothing, okay?
I see that you had to name specific Legionnaires to ask that question, since if you didn't, people could bring up Tyroc or Cosmic Boy's old costumes.
Posted by cleome on :
And when, pray tell, was the last time we saw any guys dressed like that in this comic or any other superhero book in recent memory, Ken?
No, sorry. You can point out as many temporary exceptions as you like. Still, the big picture points overwhelmingly to the fact that the straight boys peddling these books can dish it out, but they can't take it.
Posted by Dev Em on :
Hawkman wears no shirt, and I think you'd have to go back to Guy Gardner Warrior to find anouther hero like that...
She has a poit boys.
Posted by cleome on :
I kind of like what this blog has to say about the phenomena of male vs. female epidermis, personally.
Posted by Blacula on :
I agree with cleome that the double-standard re: male and female exposed flesh in comics is ridiculous and hypocritical.
Shady is wearing next to nothing and look at all the complaints that a few of the guys have EXPOSED ARMS for Grife's sake!
And heaven forbid a male character have shorts instead of long pants.
TPTB have even had to add ugly, boring-looking black pants (which totally clash with the rest of his costume) to the Martian Manhunter in place of his classic pants and now he looks awful IMO.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
I love Shady's blue skin, so I love it exposed. Although, of course it's totally impractical! I'm all for more male flesh exposure, but that's not gonna happen as long as most comic book creators are straight, male nerds. I call it," Fear of the Bulge" syndrome!! Even some modern artists I love, like Alan Davis & Chris Sprouse, seem to suffer from it. Luckily, guys like Arthur Adams, Ed Benes, Phil Jimenez & Adam Hughes don't seem to have a problem with sexualizing & objectifying the guys as much as they do the gals. Same with Steve Sadowski(who's bulges on the JSAers are legendary) & Olivier Coipel.
Posted by duck458 on :
Seems like the more that Shady is portrayed as a fierce warrior, the less clothes she wears. I would think that the opposite would be true, that a warrior would be covered for protection.
Still, I hate to see that she and Lar have brokenup, I thought they complimented each other well.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by duck458: Seems like the more that Shady is portrayed as a fierce warrior, the less clothes she wears. I would think that the opposite would be true, that a warrior would be covered for protection.
Total agreement there. I could easily rationalize that her powers protect her from energy weapons to a limited extent (negating / dampening radiant energy that reaches her skin), or that Talokkians are just naturally thick-skinned sun-leathered warrior-people, due to the harsh desert environment they grow up in, but I shouldn't have to make stuff up to rationalize why Shady dresses so ridiculously.
If anything, it should be the writer's job to explain such things and make them work within the continuity (or just lampshade them, like in the various issues of Gen 13 where Fairchild's top rips and she spends half a combat with an arm over her chest complaining about how this never happens to any of the other girls on the team).
Anywho, Mon & Shady, and perhaps Gim & Yera, were the two couples I *least* wanted broken up.
I mean, good grief, they are working on some May/December relationship between grumpy old man Brainy and tweenie Supergirl, which has been over since the original Kara died in the '80s, out of what can only be nostalgia, since the two characters have nothing in common and are wildly different characters than the outgoing Brainy and mature Kara who actually liked each other almost three decades ago, so I totally don't get the need to break up people who've been together since then...
Posted by Uranus Lad on :
Yeah, I'm going to have to ask you to speak for yourself. I'm not upset at all. I quite like the Frank designed costumes for the most part. They actually look like something people might actually wear.
Took me a while to find a pic of Tyroc's new costume. Doesn't do too much for me but hey, anything is better than that 70's peek-a-boo Elvis with elf boots thing. Certainly it stood out but it was pretty freaking ridiculous.
In a lot of ways I wish there wasn't such an emphasis on a need for overly specific costumes. Hell, if I was a super-hero, I'd want to demonstrate my super fashion sense and mix it up a bit.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
Well, the ancient Greeks used to compete athletically and go into battle naked, but I never did get the practicality of that. Why not just get a tattoo that says "Cut me here."?
How Shady can even perform routine tasks in that next to nothing outfit without exposing herself is a mystery to me. How's she supposed to fight off alien hordes and super villains who are out to kill her in her underwear goes beyond any suspension of disbelief I can muster.
She's the mistress of darkness for crying out loud. I'd think she'd be much more comfortable cloaking herself in robes than exposing every inch of her body.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
As I've said before, it seems to me the Legionnaires ought to have different uniforms for different occassions. So if Shady wants to wear a swimsuit hanging around base, more power to her, but in battle she'd wear battle armor!
Posted by Blacula on :
Unlike certain 21st century DC hero-couples (Green Arrow & Black Canary, Vox & Bumblebee, Aquaman & Mera, a few others), I don't have any particular attachment for any of the romantic couplings in the Legion.
Paul could break them all up and pair them with new people and I don't think I'd care too much (yes - that includes Gim & Yera). That said, Mon and Tasmia were one of the couples I liked most.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: ^ I like Yera's hair.
Just goes to show - pleasing comics fans = impossible!
I won't go to war over it or anything-- promise.
I just like anything that makes female characters slightly less interchangeable with one another.
Also, come to think of it, you'd think she'd opt for a different hair color since she's on the same team as the woman she used to impersonate. A nice auburn or strawberry blonde would be more... considerate.
And don't even get me started about her pink capri navel-baring jumpsuit thing...
[ June 21, 2010, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: I agree with cleome that the double-standard re: male and female exposed flesh in comics is ridiculous and hypocritical.
Shady is wearing next to nothing and look at all the complaints that a few of the guys have EXPOSED ARMS for Grife's sake!
And heaven forbid a male character have shorts instead of long pants.
TPTB have even had to add ugly, boring-looking black pants (which totally clash with the rest of his costume) to the Martian Manhunter in place of his classic pants and now he looks awful IMO.
Wasn't the Submariner also eventually confined to a unitard as well? Maybe Kazar could wear a jumpsuit and a nice animal-patterned necktie while he swings around the jungle or something.
I swear... Then the guys who perpetrate this kind of b.s. have the unmitigated gall to claim that it's female fans who're being "prudish." Gah.
[insert 3-hour rant here]
Now I need a drink. Posted by Candle on :
The gals that go topless in Europe ARE thought about and oogled, don't kid yourself.
And I find Diana's outfit just as objectifying and stupid as I do Tasmia's. She's supposed to be a goodwill ambassador but her major clothing is instantly insulting to over half the world's population! And did I say it was stupid?
I certainly don't want mainstream comic artists concentrating on portraying sexual features. If you want porn, buy porn. Don't place it in the general population.
That may be 'puritanical' but we're paying the price nowadays with all of our 'freedom' to be explicit. imo
And it's not practical or beautiful!
Posted by imskian78 on :
Cool Tyroc updates! Let's see the all white body suit second one in looks great, maybe with the collar shorter..and the new costume looks much better all white! Thanx, you have proved a point!
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
For that they do not stop thinking of the prominent figures of legion of super-heroes in thousand years in the future with other cultures and religions as if they were one pathetic persons of the century twenty-one with his fears and miseries? If he does not like the suits, since they do not buy it and devote themselves to see reality shows where fat and uncultivated women devote themselves to talk of the handsome people. I want to read good stories , drawn well caracthers, with sexy suits These are comics... So many prudishness tires very much.. And for the warriors..... Has nobody seen Spartcus Blood and Sand?
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Uranus Lad: In a lot of ways I wish there wasn't such an emphasis on a need for overly specific costumes. Hell, if I was a super-hero, I'd want to demonstrate my super fashion sense and mix it up a bit.
Definitely. Any pretense that they want the 'iconic' look of a costume that has remained mostly static for decades (like Superman or Batman) is pretty much out the window anyway, so why not have a few of the Legionnaires mix it up regularly?
I could see Dreamy showing up in mission-themed outfits or something.
"Do you really need the furry hood and long coat, Nura? Our Flight Rings protect us from the weather here on planet Ice."
"It goes well with what the natives are wearing. I didn't want to make a bad first impression."
"The natives have fur. You're wearing fur."
"That was the impression I was going for, actually, let them know I'm not messing around..."
Posted by Set on :
Tastes vary.
Tossing around words like 'pathetic' or 'prude' or 'stupid' probably aren't going to raise the level of the discourse (or convince anyone of anything).
I'd feel more comfortable with this thread if we weren't flirting so egregiously with insulting the hell out of our fellow Legion fans...
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: How's she supposed to fight off alien hordes and super villains who are out to kill her in her underwear goes beyond any suspension of disbelief I can muster.
However, if you're going to take that reasoning to its logical conclusion, it's not just the skimpy outfits that are trouble. All superhero outfits except for a vanishingly small number are completely unsuited for battle, and a good number of them are unsuited for everyday activities.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: All superhero outfits except for a vanishingly small number are completely unsuited for battle, and a good number of them are unsuited for everyday activities.
[Edna Mode] No. Capes! [/Edna Mode]
Posted by future king on :
Ok so Shady's current costume is a bit too skimpy to serve her all that well, especially when you compare her to her female teammates who for the most part are acceptably covered up (boob windows for both Jeckie and Dawny not withstanding). The more serious/respectable/whatever costumes make sense since this is the "classic" Legion.
My mind always instantly goes back to Night Girl from the 80's (circa James Sherman's run) ... MAN was THAT bikini totally inappropriate for a super-heroine or what?? But at the same time the phrase "va-va-voom!!!" is definately in my mind as well. It was so risque for its time that it made Saturn Girl in her pink bikini look like a nun by comparison.
In issue #2 we see Tyroc has gone from go-go boy in the 70's and 80's to total frump in an ugly new costume within a matter of a couple of decades! *snicker* sorry ... couldn't resist saying it again.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by future king: My mind always instantly goes back to Night Girl from the 80's (circa James Sherman's run) ... MAN was THAT bikini totally inappropriate for a super-heroine or what??
Yeah, given that she was super-strong, but *not* in any way invulnerable, that was a crazy outfit. And she looked so much hooter in the unitard-and-bouffant (sp?), anyway, IMO.
Laurel Kent dressing like that made sense, since she was invulnerable. (And, even then, Laurel to me will always be in that awesome S-poncho!)
Then again, these were the days when Travis Morgan was running through the jungles of Skartaris fending off dinosaur attacks and spear-wielding foes wearing a naught but a squirrel pelt over his junk.
Crazy people!
And Imra, too. If my power was telepathy, and stuff was blowing up all around me all the time and people were throwing punches and shooting blasters, my 'pink bikini' would be what I was wearing under the battlesuit.
Tinya, being more effectively 'invulnerable' than the average invulnerable person, is about the only full-time Legion lass who has any excuse to be wearing a bikini into battle, and, go figure, she's the one Legion lady who consistently wears *pants.*
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: If my power was telepathy, and stuff was blowing up all around me all the time and people were throwing punches and shooting blasters, my 'pink bikini' would be what I was wearing under the battlesuit.
Again, that's true whether the costume is skimpy or not. If I was Lightning Lad, I'd wear a battlesuit too. It's not as if being able to toss around lightning bolts gives me any particular resistance to bullets, blasters, or hitting my head and getting a concussion.
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Set: Tastes vary.
...I'd feel more comfortable with this thread if we weren't flirting so egregiously with insulting the hell out of our fellow Legion fans...
FWIW, I think double standards tend to originate from the top and trickle downward. Those who manufacture our culture are pretty quick to hide behind the notion that they're only giving "the public what it wants," while they also seem hell-bent on denying their own place in shaping what choices the public has available to it.
Anyway, I'm sorry if I sounded insulting. I've just never, ever understood why viewing culture with a critical and/or analytic eye automatically relegates one to being a "prude."
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Again, that's true whether the costume is skimpy or not. If I was Lightning Lad, I'd wear a battlesuit too. It's not as if being able to toss around lightning bolts gives me any particular resistance to bullets, blasters, or hitting my head and getting a concussion.
How does this address the point that Lightning Lad has more of his skin covered than his sister does? Or that Grev is usually shown with more of his skin covered than his cousin Tasmia?
Posted by Candle on :
I didn't say the fan was stupid, I said Diana's and Tasmia's costumes are stupid.
Which I think is totally acceptable.
I haven't commented on their bathing suits or evening wear or shopping costumes, just the clothes that they wear into combat, and in Diana's case, into diplomatic situations.
And cultural eras mean nothing. The Minoan culture had their women exposing their breasts in their everyday outfits. Some African and South American natives do in their tribal lives. Usually the males dress similarly.
I don't live in those cultures and neither do my grandchildren.
I stand by my objections to skimpy outfits for superheroes and heroines in mainstream comics.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
This is my rough draft version of a Tyroc costume. Posted by Set on :
That... looks like nothing I've seen before...
There's Kirby dots, and Rising Sun-esque stripes, and bold black and white, and gold accents. The big black shoulder pad-looking thing, and the smaller black 'belt' across the side over the hip, wow.
It's awesome! You're hired!
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
The costume discussion is now consolidated here...
Posted by Mattropolis on :
Wow! What a nice compliment!
Posted by Blacula on :
^ I really like that costume Matt. It reminds me of Reboot Star Boy's outfit and that's one of my favourite costumes ever.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: [snip] How does this address the point that Lightning Lad has more of his skin covered than his sister does? Or that Grev is usually shown with more of his skin covered than his cousin Tasmia?
It doesn't, it addresses a different point, which is that Saturn Girl's costume is unrealistic because there are things she could wear that would protect her more, to which the reply is that pretty much all superheroes have that problem, not just the ones in skimpy clothes.
Posted by Titan Lad on :
I know these costumes are a point of contention amongst Legion fans, but I actually enjoyed them. The piping and random additions were, in some cases, frivolous but I think it evoked a feeling of futuristic (lame word? yes but none other came to mind) while still calling upon the classic style of each individual Legionnaire.
Also, I wouldn't mind Saturn Girl growing her hair out. Frank has the only one whose been able to do it right (I assume he was attempting to make her look like Mia Farrow) but I don't think Perez or Cinar have been able to do it much justice.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
And this is my rough draft Shadow Lass... I have always loved the laurel Kent poncho and felt that it was a shame that no one was using a version of it...
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
It would actually make sense to me if there were a heavy African (perhaps even Moorish) influence on Tyroc's costume.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Okay, so it turns out this costume designing thing really is hard, but here's my first two attempts at an Africanized Tyroc:
Posted by Blacula on :
Matt - that Shadow Lass costume is *excellent*! Though I don't mind nearly-naked Tasmia I would love it if she started wearing that outfit instead!
EDE - Your designs for Tyroc are great too. I like your idea of making Tyroc's outfit more African-inspired. It would be a very fresh, different look for a DCU hero. The only other character I can think of who's worn something at all like that was Mal Duncan when he joined the Doom Patrol and became Vox. There was kind of a Bedouin kinda look going on there. Of your two, I prefer the second one 'cause its colours seem more Tyroc and I like the headdress but I think it could be streamlined a little to make fighting/flying more practical.
Posted by future king on :
I too like the Shadow Lass' poncho style costume. It totally suits her. Good work Matt! Hopefully someone in DC PTB sees this and is inspired to create it (or close to it) for Shady in the near future. Anything beats her current Victoria's Secret battle armour.
Tyroc needs a better costume than the one in Legion #2, that's for certain. I'm just not sure that an African-esque design is the right way to go with his.
[ June 23, 2010, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: future king ]
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Titan Lad: Also, I wouldn't mind Saturn Girl growing her hair out. Frank has the only one whose been able to do it right (I assume he was attempting to make her look like Mia Farrow) but I don't think Perez or Cinar have been able to do it much justice.
Oh, we're polar opposites here. I like Cinar's work on Saturn Girl's hair. She looks like she's just got a sensible no-nonsense thing going on. With Frank's style, with the gaunt cheekbones and hollow eyes, it looked like Imra was fresh out of chemotherapy... Even when Frank drew her smiling, she looked worn out and fragile, to me.
Cinar's Imra seems more like 'woman on the go.'
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
i just want action figures (dc direct are you listening) with legionnaires in each of their different costumes.
Posted by Candle on :
I like Cinar's version of Imra, myself.
And I don't think that Legionnaires have to wear combat armour, that we recognize as such nowadays, to be protected.
Way-back-when, there was industructable material. (Used in their flag, no less!)
Too much armour would make their movements sluggish and their balance off. But, some emphasis on costume practicality and what things are made of might help since their foes are out for blood.
I don't want any of them in long robes, but I think making them on the opposite end as sexual objects is just as wrong. More so.
Posted by Titan Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Set:
quote:Originally posted by Titan Lad: Also, I wouldn't mind Saturn Girl growing her hair out. Frank has the only one whose been able to do it right (I assume he was attempting to make her look like Mia Farrow) but I don't think Perez or Cinar have been able to do it much justice.
Oh, we're polar opposites here. I like Cinar's work on Saturn Girl's hair. She looks like she's just got a sensible no-nonsense thing going on. With Frank's style, with the gaunt cheekbones and hollow eyes, it looked like Imra was fresh out of chemotherapy... Even when Frank drew her smiling, she looked worn out and fragile, to me.
Cinar's Imra seems more like 'woman on the go.'
I can see how you make that comparison. To me, he used Imra's drastically differentiated features (in the flashback in 863 she has a much softer facial composure) to display the turmoil and stress of the Legion's predicament. But with Frank, it also was a tad more forward thinking as it played upon Farrow's hairstyle which was very radical for the time.
They seem rather similar to me, I think what I appreciate most about this hairstyle is the fact that is so different from the typical Super Hero. It's functional while still dynamic enough to be interesting. Also, I just went and looked up Cinar's take on Imra... it definitely wasn't as bad as I had thought it was. It actually is kind of cute.
Posted by Set on :
Mia is totally hot in the picture. If Imra looked more like her and less like Skeletor, I would have been all for it!
Charlize Theron used to rock that sort of hairdo as well, IIRC. Wow, just was googling around to see if I could find a pic of it, and was swept away with what an amazing Imra she would be...
Posted by Titan Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Mia is totally hot in the picture. If Imra looked more like her and less like Skeletor, I would have been all for it!
Charlize Theron used to rock that sort of hairdo as well, IIRC. Wow, just was googling around to see if I could find a pic of it, and was swept away with what an amazing Imra she would be...
Charlize Theron is so stunning she could pull off any hairstyle, and yes, she would make the perfect Imra!
I think with Frank, the main problem would be her eyes. They seem to large for her face at times, which ends up making Imra look somewhat emaciated (okay very emaciated) but I still enjoy it for some reason?
Posted by Candle on :
Here's an original costume created by Curt Swan, I think, and drawn by our Sketch Lad. I added a little keyhole in the middle of the star.
To me, this is appropriate and a little sexy but not a costume for sexy's sake. She's covered but still very appealing. Beauty Blaze is one of the most beautiful characters, like Quicksand, who is seldom used. sigh Sketch draws all females wonderfully, though.
[ June 24, 2010, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
She looks a lot better here than she did in Legion of 3 Worlds.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Titan Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Set:
quote:Originally posted by Titan Lad: Also, I wouldn't mind Saturn Girl growing her hair out. Frank has the only one whose been able to do it right (I assume he was attempting to make her look like Mia Farrow) but I don't think Perez or Cinar have been able to do it much justice.
Oh, we're polar opposites here. I like Cinar's work on Saturn Girl's hair. She looks like she's just got a sensible no-nonsense thing going on. With Frank's style, with the gaunt cheekbones and hollow eyes, it looked like Imra was fresh out of chemotherapy... Even when Frank drew her smiling, she looked worn out and fragile, to me.
Cinar's Imra seems more like 'woman on the go.'
I can see how you make that comparison. To me, he used Imra's drastically differentiated features (in the flashback in 863 she has a much softer facial composure) to display the turmoil and stress of the Legion's predicament. But with Frank, it also was a tad more forward thinking as it played upon Farrow's hairstyle which was very radical for the time.
They seem rather similar to me, I think what I appreciate most about this hairstyle is the fact that is so different from the typical Super Hero. It's functional while still dynamic enough to be interesting. Also, I just went and looked up Cinar's take on Imra... it definitely wasn't as bad as I had thought it was. It actually is kind of cute.
I knew that look was familiar.
Posted by Titan Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Here's an original costume by Swan, I think, and drawn by Sketch Lad. I added a little keyhole in the middle of the star.
To me, this is appropriate and a little sexy but not a costume for sexy's sake. She's covered but still very appealing. Beauty Blaze is one of the most beautiful characters, like Quicksand, who is seldom used. sigh Sketch draws all females wonderfully, though.
Love that! When I was reading Legion of 3 Worlds I thought she seemed pretty interesting but I know very little about her. I definitely wouldn't mind for her to reappear wearing that costume.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
She looks a lot different in Lo3W. Not in her powered up form, but when she looks human she actually looks like Shimmer used to from Teen Titans.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Titan Lad: Love that! When I was reading Legion of 3 Worlds I thought she seemed pretty interesting but I know very little about her. I definitely wouldn't mind for her to reappear wearing that costume.
Here she is in her first appearance in the Adult Legion story that's such a classic:
[ June 24, 2010, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by Titan Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Here she is in her first appearance in the Adult Legion story that's such a classic:
Well that makes me look stupid...I instinctively assumed their was a poster named Swan. That is definitely different than the version we saw in Legion of 3 Worlds.
Ignore my ignorance!
Posted by Candle on :
My bad! I'll edit my post so that people know that I'm talking about CurtSwan. Posted by Titan Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: My bad! I'll edit my post so that people know that I'm talking about CurtSwan.
Oh, it's fine! It's more my stupidity than anything else.
Posted by future king on :
Someone who needs a costume update might be Dream Girl.
It was awesome seeing her in Legion #2 and I'm glad she's back, but it was a bit of a let down seeing her in her old costume. It almost seemed boring compared to the updated costumes of this "new" Legion. I realize its a classic but almost everyone else has been given an updated costume so why not her?
I was kinda hoping that she'd show up wearing the threeboot Nura's threads (which to me is the finest costume for this character that I've seen so far!). Perhaps threeboot Nura might have visited retroboot Nura in a dream or something (you know ... her power transcending all time/space realities) and inspire retro Nura to update her classic costume.
Well, I can Dream can't I?
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by cleome: [snip] How does this address the point that Lightning Lad has more of his skin covered than his sister does? Or that Grev is usually shown with more of his skin covered than his cousin Tasmia?
It doesn't, it addresses a different point, which is that Saturn Girl's costume is unrealistic because there are things she could wear that would protect her more, to which the reply is that pretty much all superheroes have that problem, not just the ones in skimpy clothes.
Y'know, I wear steel-toed boots where I work, because the people who run the place ordered me to wear them. Before the upgraded safety rule took effect, the only rule about footwear was to wear a flat-soled, closed-toe shoe-- either a boot or an exercise shoe. I already owned several pairs of closed-toe leather workboots, so those were what I originally wore.
The steel-toed workboot provides more protection than does a plain closed-toe leather workboot. However, either type of boot provides more protection than a bare-toed shoe like a flip-flop would.
In short, I don't think your argument here holds water. Somebody with clothing covering most of their body is still going to be better protected on average than somebody who only has a few scraps of clothing over their naughty bits. IOW: less clothing in a combat-related situation comes across as less realistic, for the most part. It's pretty straightforward.
[ June 26, 2010, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by kcekada on :
I thought the art was better this time around. I'm glad that Cinar (hope that's the correct spelling) doesn't draw the Legion as old and craggy as Gary Frank drew them. It is unfortunate that he's saddled with Gary Frank's uniforms though. I can't believe Frank had the audacity to change Cockrum's uniform for Lightning Lad. That is sacrilege! But I don't mind his update on Wildfire's encasing -- too much. While I don't think Drake would like his energy showing -- maybe Dawny does.
Tyroc's new look is okay. Certainly better than most of Frank's designs. I do think, though, that the book would be well-served by hiring a dynamic artist -- maybe from the sci fi world who could come up with some sleek, futuristic designs -- as well as tech for the Legion.
Frank went back to the Silver Age for inspiration -- big mistake. As much as I loved the Bronze Age outfits, I think it is time to move forward. Heck, I'll even concede that Garth could be due for something new -- but only if it's better than Cockrum's design. Frank's design isn't it.
Posted by kcekada on :
quote:Originally posted by future king: Someone who needs a costume update might be Dream Girl.
I was kinda hoping that she'd show up wearing the threeboot Nura's threads (which to me is the finest costume for this character that I've seen so far!).
You mean the Kitson version with clouds on the tights? Err... pass. I recall Adam Hughes drew a modern version of the classic in Legionnaires (pre reboot) that might be okay.
Posted by cleome on :
I'd also like to see Nura get a new look. The silver-blue or silver-red combo would be nice, but I think I'd pass on the Spears midriff. Gah. So tired of seeing that everywhere. Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: IOW: less clothing in a combat-related situation comes across as less realistic, for the most part. It's pretty straightforward.
It's weird, 'cause the Legion universe has already established the existence of molecule-thin transsuits that are transparent and freaking tough. If Shady or Nura (or Rokk) felt the need to let it all hang out, they could easily wear a costume with some transparent panels in places, and still be fully covered, and protected, despite the appearance of exposed skin.
Like so many quirky bits, the solution is already established and present in Legion history, just having been pretty much overlooked.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
I know I've said this before, but I actually like the look Frank designed for Garth.
The others... I could go either way.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
I seriously dislike Frank's redesign of WILDFIRE! I'm no purist - I was a big fan of twoboot Drake (Coipel design?) which was very different from Cockrum's, but this new thing is terrible. The worst is that it's not a design that can translate well from artist to artist. And is it me, or does he look too skinny? (I know that doesn't make sense, but he looks too skinny to me)
Posted by Jerry on :
I totally agree with you, Drake. The original Wildfire design was nice. Coipel's reboot version introduced during Legion Lost was my favorite look. The Frank redesign is hardly recognizable and is too skinny.
Posted by Candle on :
Wildfire's look reboot Lost was pretty wonderful. It had a slight midevil feel to it, which I liked, as did Umbra's hair.
I would certainly like a complete era change for the retroboot. Having costumes from all sorts of Legion era's is confusing and wierd.
And the ones that aren't weird or dated are just ugly.
I want individuality but within a central design plan. Like if the idea is for sleeveless, EVERYONE uses that concept while on team missions.
Especially now, when they're trying to rebuild the Legion's reputation and shore-up the UP.
And I think that using transuit tech is a bit of a cop out for designs that are poorly thought out and executed UNLESS everyone just throws on anything with the suit over it, in a grunge sort of look. But that really doesn't work for an official type of representative group like the Legion. I think.
Posted by Blacula on :
I *loved* Coipel's Wildfire design. That costume is what made me like Wildfire for the first time, formerly one of my bottom 3 Legionnaires.
When I first saw Frank's redesign of him it was definitely one of the few I didn't like. But I have to say that the more I've seen of it, the more I've grown to like it. And now it's one of my faves. I do agree that he looks a bit skinny though. But I can live with that.
Dream Girl's current/classic costume is a welcome sight too IMO. I like that a few Legionnaires (like her and Bouncing Boy) have kept their original outfits all these years. Please let me never see that Threeboot outfit she wore again though. Possibly my least favourite Legion costume of all time.
Reading this thread, I'm amazed at how little consensus there is among Legion fans when it comes to the costumes. Even when you agree with another poster on some outfits you find you have totally opposite views on others.
It's proof that none of us are ever going to be 100% satisfied with how this team looks (in fact we'd be lucky to be 60% satisfied).
So our complaints are a bit like Sisyphus rolling his stone up the hill. Every change that is finally made to our favour will just raise another fan's ire and get that ball rolling again.
...
Now back to getting Tyroc some hair and out of that boredomville outfit... Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
I really disliked all the costumes for the reboot Wildfire,except for the Lightle redesign which was simular to Cockrum's design only it was black and red.
Wildfire was/is one of my favorite characters,but I could never get over the origin they gave him in the reboot to embrace that version of the character.
Not crazy about the Frank costume either, but at least Blastoff and Radion are not in it.
Posted by cleome on :
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: Reading this thread, I'm amazed at how little consensus there is among Legion fans when it comes to the costumes. Even when you agree with another poster on some outfits you find you have totally opposite views on others.
I'm not surprised. A fandom without tons of contention is... a fandom I've never known to exist.
To be honest, I like the impact that Frank has left, at least the idea that clothing has folds, creases, and more than one layer. It can look like more than just a buffed naked man or woman who's been sprayed a different color.
Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Not crazy about the Frank costume either, but at least Blastoff and Radion are not in it.
No, this time it's Red Tornado.... Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
Hopefully Levitz will forget about that error, and go back to the classic origin Cockrum and Bates gave the character, at least thats what I've done.
[ June 27, 2010, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
Posted by future king on :
Wow Wolf ... that is an awesome character design page you dug up! Wherever did you find it? I have to say that is/was my favourite look for Wildfire ever. Something about it looks vaguely familiar, but was it actually printed in any Cockrum Legion books back in the early 70's? I have to go back and check my collection now. Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
I can't remember exactly where I got these 3 pics, I have spent quite a few computer hours over the years saving Legion pictures, but if I had to guess it was from Dave's personal collection,and was never printed in any Legion comic that I know of.
[ June 28, 2010, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Hmm... I thought this was posted somewhere in the "Visionaries" section here, but I can't find it.
quote:Originally posted by cleome: IOW: less clothing in a combat-related situation comes across as less realistic, for the most part. It's pretty straightforward.
It's weird, 'cause the Legion universe has already established the existence of molecule-thin transsuits that are transparent and freaking tough. If Shady or Nura (or Rokk) felt the need to let it all hang out, they could easily wear a costume with some transparent panels in places, and still be fully covered, and protected, despite the appearance of exposed skin.
Like so many quirky bits, the solution is already established and present in Legion history, just having been pretty much overlooked.
Looking forward to the elaborate explanations from TPTB about why this would only work for female characters, not male characters.
Maybe John Gray IV could show up in a special scientific back-up Legion feature to explain that those goofy female pores just plain need to be more close-up and personal with their transsuits and stuff.
Do we have a bangs-own-head-against-the-wall-for-an-hour smilie? Because I really want one in the worst way...
Posted by future king on :
Hey Blacula, here's another opinion...
Dream Girl's threeboot costume was one of the best design concept ever made for a young heroine and suited her to a tee. Not to mention it was a pleasure to look at.
Yes it's true Kitson's design showed Nura's midrift (big deal) which was a bit Brittany Spears-ish, BUTT the plus side is we lost that half-a-cheek-showing-on-either-side, almost-a-thong silver mess her classic costume had become.
The current/classic costume, while also a favourite of mine too believe it or not, has had its day in the sun. It's time to move on though. She looks silly now next to her teammates with their new threads.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
As I'm sure I've already said, I think all the new uniforms are too busy with too much extraneous detail and I'd think they'd be a royal pain to draw, panel after panel.
They've even busied up Brainy's plain old jumpsuit with quilting and stitching and a jacket with lots of details in it too.
Thank God Mon-El is back in his original suit. I'd hate to see him or Dreamy busied up like the others.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: As I'm sure I've already said, I think all the new uniforms are too busy with too much extraneous detail and I'd think they'd be a royal pain to draw, panel after panel.
I do prefer the sleeker looks of some of their older costumes. Shady was awesome in her full body-stocking and cloak look, Lu looks great in her Threeboot outfit (as opposed to the miniskirts of yore) and Garth and Jan always looked best, IMO, in their 'classic' one-piece outfits (Garth's dark blue and white with lightning and Jan's dark blue and green).
Threeboot Dream Girl's look was, IMO, one of Barry's best designs.
Some characters look great in baggier, less form-fitting clothes, and I wouldn't mind there being a mix of that (Mon-El, uniform-era Imra) and the sleeker stuff.
The busy stuff looks too much like Franks was trying to channel Kirby, and somehow failed to 'do Kirby' and also failed to create attractive designs, making it a doubleplusfail.
I really liked Manapul's re-interpretation of Sun Boy's look at the end of the Shooter run on the threeboot and wish that could somehow bleed over into this continuity's Dirk...
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I guess I am somewhere in the middle because I don't like the Threeboot design but I do feel Nura needs an update.
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by future king: Hey Blacula, here's another opinion...
Dream Girl's threeboot costume was one of the best design concept ever made for a young heroine and suited her to a tee. Not to mention it was a pleasure to look at.
Hey future king - glad you liked the costume.
That's a pretty bold statement though. I don't see how some weird blue pants with what may or may not have been clouds on them plus a boring, midriff exposing top constitutes one of the "best design concepts ever made for a young heroine" but maybe that's just me.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire: Not crazy about the Frank costume either, but at least Blastoff and Radion are not in it.
You mean Blastoff and Atom'X, Radion was Radiation Boy reboot.
Posted by superboymddjr on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Hmm... I thought this was posted somewhere in the "Visionaries" section here, but I can't find it.
Hmm...since Dave Cockrum passed away, why don't we ask Paul Levitz to bring those characters into the Legion books? It would be a nice honor. We can chase Paul at the comics convention, heh. Possible?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
My guess is that it would be a legal hassle to bring those characters in exactly as Dave envisioned them, but characters created as homages to them might work.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Hmm... I thought this was posted somewhere in the "Visionaries" section here, but I can't find it.
I collected a lot of Dave's work such as the Wildfire/Starfire stuff above and posted it to a free website I had. The remains of it are here as a sub domain to Legion World.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
). Also, she's always kept the same basic red/yellow/blue color scheme, emblem, and cape. She's also a much more famous and recognizable comic character than the average Legionnaire. ![[shrug]](graemlins/shrug.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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.)![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Proty]](graemlins/Proty.gif)
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![[Good]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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![[Chameleon - Re-Imagined]](graemlins/Chameleon3.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[No]](graemlins/shake.gif)
Then the guys who perpetrate this kind of b.s. have the unmitigated gall to claim that it's female fans who're being "prudish." Gah.
![[Disgusting]](graemlins/puke.gif)
