This is topic The Complete Continuity Match-Up Checklist: from Baxter to Levitz Relaunch (revised) in forum The Legion of Super-Heroes at Legion World.
I am posting this as a new thread so that I can have it be in post #1 and edit it in place as new suggestions come in (rather than posting extra copies of it).
REVISED CONTINUITY CHECKLIST
Modified from Cobalt Kid's post
Notes:
Post-Flashpoint and the new 52 (2011): Most Legion history has been kept in the new 52. The biggest effects are where the Legion intersects with the rest of the DCU--which makes crossovers a real problem. And given what happened post-Crisis, we may never find out the details for a long time, if ever. I've put some items in separate sections, but it becomes very tricky to classify things like "Dev-Em is a pre-Crisis character, and retconned post-Crisis, but in the Johns era there were two characters called Dev-Em, but in the new 52 those stories may not have happened", so you'll just have to deal with any fuzzy classifications.
Legion History: The Board Game from V6 Annual #1: Paul has said (on Facebook) that this timeline is not in continuity. This particularly means it's not evidence for Conspiracy happening, or Shadow Lass marrying and divorcing, along with some other items like the Legion being inspired by Superboy (not true in current continuity) and the Great Darkness happening before Yera was disguised as Violet.
Conspiracy and the death of Superboy: apparently gone; Mon-El is still alive, and Luornu had her second body until it died much later. There has been no in-continuity mention of Shadow Lass's marriage to Mon-El (which happened because he was dying) but Paul said on Facebook that they are divorced, which implies that the marriage still happened somehow.
Character info captions: These have been consistently inaccurate: -- Describing Tyroc's home Marzal as a "homeworld"; it's an island that disappears into another dimension, not a planet. There's no evidence that Marzal is now a planet other than these captions. Some fans seem to think it really is a planet now. The captions have enough other errors that I refuse to believe it's a planet unless it is shown as one onscreen. -- Describing Quislet's dimension Teall as a "homeworld". -- Spelling "Spider-Girl" with a hyphen (Action Comics #859) -- Having several inconsistent names for Luornu -- Consistently misspelling Gates' home Vyrga as "Vyraga" (annual #1 gets it correct once).
Inconsistent with original/Levitz run, may be mistake or retcon (pre-V6) Many of these relate to other parts of the DC Universe and may be moot with the New 52. I will count these as resolved only if we are specifically told that they happened differently in the New 52.
Statues in Lightning Saga -- some members are missing: Tyroc, Quislet: Former members, not members as of the end of V3, but who were described as disappeared members in Legion of Three Worlds. Night Girl, Chameleon Girl, Rond Vidar: Not members as of the end of V3, but joined the Legion before their modern reappearance. Rond Vidar's membership was not revealed until Legion of Three Worlds. Tellus, Magnetic Kid, Chemical King: No explanation. The statues were a big problem back in 2007 because they seemed to be a big source of detail about the new continuity. But they turned out to be too inconsistent to be useful, and we now have better information anyway.
Lightning Saga: Batman acts as though he has not met the Legion or Karate Kid. He met them in the Brave and the Bold #179 and 198 from the 1980's, as well as JLA #147-148 (and Action #864 specifically says he still remembers JLA #147-8).
Supergirl #22: Has appearances by Karate Kid and Una from Countdown, but states 1) that Una has all three bodies but left two in the 31st century, 2) that Karate Kid and Una don't remember Supergirl as a member, and 3) that Supergirl now remembers her adventures with the Threeboot. 1-2 are both false. 3 is true but seemed to have been false for a while in #52.
The Miracle Machine -- used in Final Crisis #9, should have been gone as of S/LSH #251.
Infectious Lass as member -- in Dr. 13 she claims that she was a Legion member and then demoted to the Subs because they didn't think her power was that great. This seems to refer to her initial appearance (rather than to post-V3). Seems to be just a mistake, not a retcon.
Some rejected applicants revealed to be rejected for being insane. This however included Golden Boy, who was actually rejected when Dynamo Boy took over.
Durla - Brande and Chameleon Boy originally came from Durla. Adventure #11 puts their ancestor on "New Durla" instead. This isn't necessarily inconsistent since there is 1000 years for the planet to have been renamed or the family to have moved (they're also described as nomads) but it is surprising.
Karate Kid doesn't seem to be recognized by Batman or anyone else in Countdown. If the old continuity is back his karate-fad 1970's series should be in continuity. This could be because Countdown is generally recognized as a complete character and continuity failure. (And if nothing else, Batman knows the Legion from Lightning Saga!)
Legion of Three Worlds: Superboy-Prime is affected by Threeboot kryptonite on the grounds that that Legion is from Earth-Prime and the kryptonite has to match the Kryptonian's home universe. Except that the Threeboot had already shown kryptonite affecting Supergirl....
Anti-Lead serum: Legion of Three Worlds has Brainiac 5 state that he "alone" created Mon-El's anti-lead serum. In Adventure #300, Saturn Girl created the original serum based on technobabble about using her powers. Possible retcon, though it could just be bluster or referring only to the final serum.
Last Stand of New Krypton has Titanians coming from Lanoth. V6#1 has Dr. Aven refer to Earth as the motherworld, however. Resolved--one of the fastest ones to be resolved. LSH#3 says that the ancestors of the Titanians, presumably from Earth, met the Lanothians on Titan...
REBELS #2 (2009) has Starhaven as founded in the past instead of in the 27th Century.
Adventure #4 has Blok apparently in love with Mysa and changed to a less stone form. Whether this is a retcon depends on what you think of Blok/Mysa in the Levitz era--I don't interpret it as a romance so I consider it a retcon. Blok's new form was gone without explanation in Blok's next appearance.
Action Comics #858 and Superman: Secret Origin: The Legion had flight rings when they recruited Superboy. The Legion didn't have permission to use the time bubble when they recruited Superboy. Un-retconned in Adventure #517, however Supergirl Annual #2 again has flight rings appear too early.
Xenophobia: The Action Comics story described the xenophobia as a recent thing. That is arguably unrealistic, but it's not a retcon or change, just an event that happened after the end of V3. However, Superman: Secret Origin had the xenophobia as not recent; that one is a change.
Legion of Three Worlds shows the Adventure #247 costumes and colors. This is pretty much the only place that does that (and Legion: Secret Origin shows them in new costumes during the Adventure time period). We can probably assume this is just a mistake.
Takron-Galtos reappeared in Legion of Three Worlds (it was destroyed in Crisis).
Sorcerer's World reappears in Legion of Three Worlds (it was destroyed in the Magic Wars). This did not require explanation in Geoff Johns' run, since Johns wanted to continue from Crisis, but Paul continued from the end of V3.
Adventure #9: Brainiac 5's father is the first to make Brainiac a name associated with good. Contradicts several references, including V3#55 as well as another scene where Projectra says he is of noble lineage. Un-retconned in Legion: Secret Origin #2, where "Brainiac" is an honorable title.
Inconsistent with original/Levitz run, may be mistake or retcon (during V6) Saturn Girl seems to use telekinesis (LSH V6#1). Verified with Levitz as error.
Saturn Girl says something in V6#1 about never having been religious, but she and Garth baptized Graym on Titan in v3 #16. This was a religious baptism with crosses and a Bible quote. Verified with Levitz as fans taking things too literally. It is possible to have a religious baptism without being religious.
Adventure #12: Saturn Girl claims to be an orphan. Contradicts several references including "The Five Legion Orphans", "Secrets of the Legion" and "Who's Who in the Legion". Verified with Levitz as error. He was thinking of Dream Girl.
Adventure #12 says that Superboy is from the 20th Century but the Legion is from the 31st. If the Legion takes place exactly 1000 years after Superboy's time, this can't be true. The current Legion is 1000 years ahead of the current Superman, while the Silver Age Legion is 1000 years ahead of Superboy, because comic book time has aged the Legion more than it has aged Superman. Back when we were in the Silver Age it didn't work this way but was generally inconsistent.
Adventure #12: Saturn Girl wipes Superboy's memory when he returns to his own time. The most famous post-hypnotic suggestion to forget the future was done by Supergirl, not Saturn Girl. The only time Saturn Girl wipes his memories of things he's learned about the future is after the Reflecto story. This retcon may be inevitable because super-hypnotism no longer exists, and because the idea that Superman is invulnerable to non-Kryptonian telepathy hasn't been true for decades.
Adventure #516: Brande talks weirdly. Paul has said he thought he had written Brande's speech pattern like this before. In LSH V6 #9, he acknowledged that Brande did not speak like this in previous issues. In Legion: Secret Origin, it seems to be off and on.
Superman/Batman #75: Batman acts as though he has never met the Legion, despite there being a number of both modern (Lightning Saga, Superman/LSH) and old crossovers where he did, plus the reboot and threeboot crossovers.
LSH #6: Cosmic Boy talks about his mother not forgiving him for the death of his brother in a way which sounded to some fans like she is alive. Paul verified on Facebook that she is still dead.
Annual #1: Orando is back in our dimension, apparently.
Inconsistent with original/Levitz run, may be mistake or retcon (during V7)
I'm sure something will turn up. So far, all the inconsistencies I've seen during V7 were obviously done on purpose, so are listed below and not here.
Intentional retcon (prior to V6) Starman / Starboy's medical condition. Partly unretconned in #11 to be a result of his suit, so he was not schizophrenic all along.
Wildfire / Red Tornado weird connection -- that made little sense so hopefully is never mentioned again
Projectra revealed to have two hearts
Dream Girl connected to the Dreaming (JSA #5). That's right, connect her to a Vertigo series that leads to editorial interference for anyone who tries to cross over with it. What can go wrong?
L3W: Original meeting of the Legions of three worlds revealed, which led to XS being sent to the reboot universe in the first place.
Rainbow Girl's new powers
Adventure #9: Brainiac 5 isn't the fifth generation--there were lots of generations between Brainiac 3 and 4. This was pretty much necessary considering that Brainiac 3 already showed up in the present.
Superman Secret Files 2009: It is revealed that Daxamites live hundreds of years.
Intentional retcon (during V6) Adventure #516: The Legion tried to get Superman, not Superboy; getting Superboy was a mistake (revealed to be intentional on Brainy's part in #519). It occurs to me that this makes sense because Superboy isn't a superhero in the present, so he's not in the history books and the Legion and Brande wouldn't intentionally recruit him. This also raises the question of if the Legion ever had an 18 year old age limit.
Adventure #516: Brande is Chameleon Boy's mother. "I laid his egg". Later issues seem to be moving away from this a bit, although it's not contradicted.
Adventure #516: The assassination attempt on Brande was actually from Durlans who wanted him to stay on Durla.
The six minute war: Adventure #516 and War of the Supermen both agree that the six minute war happened in the present day. However, this contradicts the old V2 Annual #2 and other sources which establish that it happened thousands of years ago. Since Durlans could not shapeshift until the war it also contradicts Invasion!
Durlans' natural shape: This is very confused, although in current continuity it seems the green tentacled form is their natural form. Adventure #516 says that it is, and that Brande designed the orange form. However, in Legion of Three Worlds, Brande reverts to the orange form when he dies, and in War of the Supermen, Durlans (before the war and before they could shapeshift) are orange humanoids. S/LSH#241 originally stated that the orange form was their natural form, but V2-V3 changed that to the green tentacled one. Note that Adventure #516 agrees with War of the Supermen about the date of the war yet disagrees about the natural form. (Strictly speaking this should be in another section, but I'm keeping the Adventure #516 references together.) Paul has said he isn't taking all of Legion of Three Worlds as continuity, which could mean that Brande didn't really change to the orange form when he died.
Adventure #517: Imra slept with Rokk. Imra wiped his mind. Rokk seems to think it's nothing unusual to sleep with someone and not remember who they are.
Adventure #518: Reveals that it was Nura, not a computer from the Tryops Council, who predicted a death when fighting Zaryan. It is implied that they will send the information without revealing the source.
Intentional retcon (during V7)
Legion: Secret Origin: The Adventure-era costumes are gone.
From a July 2012 interview with Paul Levitz: the Legion hasn't met the Fatal Five yet. As well as being a big change to history, it opens arguably the biggest continuity hole since the removal of Superboy: the deaths of Ferro Lad, Invisible Kid, and Mentalla were all associated with the Fatal Five, and so were Shadow Lass and Blok joining the Legion (for Blok, because of the Dark Man).
Legion Lost #0: Completely new origin for Timber Wolf.
Legion #0: Tharok's new origin is that he was possessed by part of Brainiac. Also, Brainiac 5 is responsible for releasing Brainiac.
Happened after the end of V4 but not shown Rokk/Lydda split-up: mentioned in Legion of Three Worlds. "I've given up my life, my relationships (Lydda in the background) so you don't have to" (to Garth and Imra). (Some people think this began in V6. It didn't.) However, this is contradicted by a later panel in Adventure Comics #9 showing them holding hands. They're broken up again in #526. V7#8 has them back together without much reference to the breakup.
Resurrection of Karate Kid. Karate Kid made vague mentions in JSA #6 that Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, and Lightning Lad "risked their lives to save" him. Complicating this is Threeboot #42, where that Karate Kid and Triplicate Girl were sent through time, suggesting that they're the ones in the present (particularly Countdown), yet they're obviously not. Jim Shooter reports that Geoff Johns was late with his scripts and #42 was an editorial mandate made without seeing the actual script. In V6 #6 we see a scene of a younger Karate Kid, which may or may not be related.
Luornu in Countdown/Legion of Three Worlds -- Countdown killed "Una", who is one body of Luornu. Supergirl #22 said that she is Triplicate Girl and that two bodies are still alive in the 31st Century. Action and Legion of Three Worlds say that she was Duo Damsel until one body died in the 21st Century (Countdown) leaving one in the 31st. Countdown itself never says she has any other bodies alive and seems to assume that both others are dead--which means that different stories have tried to have it all three ways. The correct version in continuity would be Legion of Three Worlds (Duo Damsel, one body died in Countdown). Note that although she only had one body left at the end of V3 the story where the second body died was related to Conspiracy so didn't happen.
Luornu's new powers -- Legion of Three Worlds gave her new duplication powers, with an unrevealed source; her remarks about "something weird" make it unclear whether she knows why. Adventure #368 (Mutiny of the Super-Heroines) is precedence for being able to enhance Luornu's power this way.
Myg as Karate Kid II (spelled "Mygg" in L3W). He is revealed to have an apprentice, who could conceivably be the character in V6 #6.
Night Girl joins
Chameleon Girl joins
Rond Vidar joins
Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy rejoin -- probably doesn't need explanation, the resignations weren't permanent
New HQ built
Quislet returns. Geoff Johns wanted to start from post-Crisis and he left well after Crisis, so this only became a continuity problem now that LSH is going off of the end of V3. Note that Quislet only left because he lost his ship. He had every reason to come back if he got another one.
Tyroc returns.
Return / Resurrection of Tharok, return of Validus to monster state, resurrection of the Emerald Empress (specifically named as Sarya in Legion of Three Worlds #2). Validus has shown up in V6#9 (apparently not Garridian), although Sarya is described as still dead in annual #2.
Dragonmage of this continuity appears -- he is later mentioned as murdered by Mordru in Legion of 3 Worlds but we know it cannot be the reboot Dragonmage or the TMK Dragonmage no matter what Geoff was thinking
Infectious Lass -- appears in our time in the Dr. 13 backup in Tales of the Unexpected. Later explained in the Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes arc by an offhand comment saying that Earth-Man threw her into the timestream.
Rainbow Girl (Adventure Comics #309) joins the Legion of Substitute Heroes
Double-Header killed by villainous Justice League of Earth
Blok's appearance: 1) Appeared in the Geoff Johns era without the new appearance he assumed at the end of the 1980s. Johns wanted to continue from Crisis, which would have left Blok like this, but that's no longer so, so it needs explanation now. 2) Appeared in Adventure #523 with no explanation for changing back from the appearance Johns left him with in Adventure #4.
Mordru un-depowered
First appearances of Saturn Queen, Echo, and Beauty Blaze in Legion of Three Worlds. Saturn Queen's name given as Eve Aries, same as the other versions. (And don't try looking Saturn Queen up in Wikipedia, since that mixes up V4, Adult Legion, and current.)
Destruction of all the Green Lanterns in the 31st Century, revealed in Legion of Three Worlds as what seems to be a recent event. Specifically not caused by Superboy-Prime, who only destroyed some, and in the 21st.
Up in the air Order of joining of Superboy and Supergirl: There is a longstanding controversy over whether Superboy or Supergirl joined first. The Legion Index gives the main evidence as Adventure #323 where a flashback shows Superboy joining when Brainiac 5 and several other Legionnaires (who joined with or after Supergirl) are present. There are also doctored reprints of Adventure #247 that put Brainiac 5 in the first Legion story. Current stories that may affect this include Adventure #516, which seems to assume that Brainiac 5 hung around building time machines before he was a member, and Supergirl Annual #2 which flat out says that Supergirl joined after Superboy, contradicting Secrets of the Legion #2 which had Supergirl join first.
Ayla / Salu romance -- Was widely assumed by fans to exist in the V3 era, but didn't become official until TMK. Levitz has recently stated that it was a lesbian relationship and he wasn't sure how much of it he intended but the characters have a way of writing themselves. Settled by V6 annual #1. Yes, it's a lesbian relationship.
Laurel Kent -- Laurel Kent was revealed to be a Manhunter back in V3. There's no reason why this story couldn't still have happened, but it was obviously done not only for the Millennium crossover, but to get rid of a Superman-related character, so it's possible that it's no longer in continuity. Superman/Batman #80 features an "Elna Kent" as Superwoman; that was the name Laurel used in her first appearance.
The interview in Comics Buyers' Guide for August 2010 has Levitz state that Legion of Three Worlds isn't necessarily in continuity.
Durlan/Phase in LEGION: The Durlan was Brande in TMK, but is not Brande now, so exactly who he is and what happened to him is a dangling plot that dates from the reboot era. Presumably Phase is still 1/3 of reboot Tinya (since the reboot is an alternate timeline but still happened, including all the crossovers). LEGION/REBELS is presumably out of continuity in the New 52, so this shouldn't be a problem any more.
Adventure #2: Mekt sends Garth to find out if Mekt has a twin. Dangling plot, and if he does it would be a major retcon.
LSHV6#4 membership: Cosmic Boy says there are 26 Legionnaires. The mission monitor board has 26 spaces on it. Assuming that Bouncing Boy and Duplicate Damsel are at the Academy, that leaves Chameleon Girl, Night Girl, Starman/boy, and XS as not being active members. The Legion vote adds Chameleon Girl as an active member again but removes Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad.
Adventure #523: Introduction of a new character named Glorith. The original Glorith is most known for appearing in 5YL and for almost but not quite appearing in the reboot as Lori, but she was a minor villain in the original Adventure Comics. She doesn't look like the original Glorith and any connections remain to be revealed.
Marriage and divorce of Shadow Lass and Mon-El: It has usually been assumed that the Conspiracy never happened, since none of its effects have been seen--Mon-El is still alive and Luornu's second body was still alive, for instance. However, Paul confirmed on Facebook that Mon-El and Shadow Lass are divorced, which implies a marriage--and originally, the marriage happened because Mon-El was dying as a result of Conspiracy (and died an issue later). I have no idea how to reconcile this.
Inferno: since the reboot still happened (with Legionnaires from another timeline) Inferno is still around in the 21st Century, although she hasn't appeared recently.
Sun Girl: a new character who appeared in Teen Titans in 2007 written by Geoff Johns. Wizard gives her name as Deborah Morgna which is an obvious Legion connection. I have yet to be told that her name actually appeared in a comic book.
Adventure #1 page 30 panels: Panel #1: Shown in Adventure #8. Panel #2: Shows Nura captured in the 21st century giving warnings. There is a captive female Daxamite in the 21st century and there is some speculation that she was put there because the Nura plot was dropped. Panel #3: Not Legion related. Panel #4: Blok has a "complication"; shown in shadow. Could be about Blok returning to his old appearance prior to Lightning Saga, but if so, must be a flashback. #4 also has a change in Blok's appearance but the scene doesn't show up then either; another possibility is that it's for a dropped or upcoming plot where he changes back from that appearance. Panel #5: XS needs to warn someone. Dangling plot. Panel #6: Earth-Man with Legion and GL rings. Resolved.
Wildfire in the future: DC One Million showed Wildfire as leading a new Legion team in the far future. DC One Million has direct connections to the modern DC Universe, but the reboot is now considered to be an alternate universe, so DC One Million is probably not the future of the reboot. Moreover, the reboot ended with a dangling plot where Wildfire would run out of energy if he keeps using it. This makes it possible that he is actually the original universe's Wildfire.
DCU connections (New DCU) It is reported that Superboy still had some Legion connection. Action Comics #5-6 show the Legion meeting Superman as a boy. This is in flashbacks by Saturn Woman from the Adult Legion stimulating Clark's buried memories. The Adult Legion is notoriously out of continuity, but theoretically the memories come from Clark, not from them. Legion: Secret Origin #5 shows the Legion failing to reach Superman (at an age which seems older than the one in Action Comics).
Barry and Iris are not married, which leaves XS up in the air (although Bart Allen still exists).
According to Dan Didio, the new DCU has not had any Crisis. This raises the question of whether Gates and XS were ever from another universe.
There is fan speculation that the purple hooded woman that appeared post-52 in many DC titles is Glorith. According to Jim Lee, the woman is a new character.
Since the JSA didn't exist on the New 52 Earth, Starman's recently retconned-in past is once again in limbo.
Legion #0: Some version of Brainiac has survived to the 31st Century and is responsible for making Tharok what he is.
DCU connections (Old DCU) Elastic Lad (Jimmy Olsen), and Pete Ross as honorary members: Possible but unlikely. In modern continuity, Pete learned Clark's secret as an adult, and Jimmy was Elastic Lad only very briefly in shoutouts to the original Elastic Lad stories.
Superboy was only a superhero in the future, not in Smallville, so all those early stories which were Superboy stories with a page of the Legion at the end probably didn't happen. In some cases a version without costumes could have happened, such as the Mon-El origin. Many of these stories are silly enough that they couldn't have happened, regardless.
Supergirl -- Supergirl #52 and Annual #2 covers most of it. The 2000's Supergirl joined the Legion in Annual #2, between #57-58 (In #52, Brainy speculates she has already joined but this turns out to be false). The Satan Girl story is retconned (Satan Girl is a separate entity, and she's present because Brainiac 5 was careless), but other Silver Age Legion stories with Supergirl get cameos and could still have happened in some form. History does include the death of Supergirl and she did get a post-hypnotic suggestion to forget it. The exact details of her death (and whether she did die or whether this is a post-Crisis anomaly) are unrevealed. Note that:
Supergirl #22 has her recovering her memories of the Threeboot. #52 seems to ignore this (she finds Brainiac 5 "familiar" but doesn't actually know who he is) but Annual #2 takes it into account.
DC Universe: Legacies has the pre-Crisis Supergirl dying, not her. Annual #2 shows her statue in the Supergirl Memorial Hall using the current costume, however.
Lightning Saga mentions that "Kara" has a flight ring, which can only mean her. At this point she hasn't joined the Retroboot yet, so should only have a Threeboot flight ring. Annual #2 has her get a Retroboot flight ring. Unfortunately the Legion was still using flying belts back then, which it seems only Paul Levitz remembers.
There is no sign that Supergirl was hypnotized to forget her future in the old Legion series. Superboy was hypnotized, but by Supergirl.
Annual #2 has Supergirl join after Superboy. It is possible the writer didn't realize this was controversial. See above.
Annual #2 correctly says that it takes place in the 30th Century but incorrectly claims the Threeboot was also 30th Century.
Annual #2 says that Supergirl and Superboy are not allowed in the same time period, which retcons or ignores the original Legion stories. This didn't last long. Supergirl and Superboy are both in Adventure #520.
Insect Queen -- not likely. The modern Insect Queen first appeared in Superman #671-673 in 2008 and is an alien villain who copied and later took over Lana Lang.
Dev-Em -- There are two recent characters by that name, a cult leader from 52 (who wasn't really Kryptonian) and a villainous Kryptonian in the Phantom Zone in Action Comics #851. Neither one would make sense as the Legion character. In the Chris Kent story, Superman claims that there are no surviving Kryptonians other than Supergirl, which would rule out meeting a more Legion-like Dev-Em when he was a boy.
Tornado Twins/Impulse/XS -- The Tornado Twins left the 'Preboot/Johnsboot' Earth/Universe and lived on the Reboot Earth/Universe. They have since died. Their children are XS and Kid Flash (formerly Impulse), who grew up on that Earth/Universe. Kid Flash journeyed back to the PB/JB Earth/Universe in the 21st Century and XS has now done the same in the 31st Century. XS has rapidly aged like Impulse, which means that having the Tornado Twins be their preboot age is not a problem. All this revealed in Legion of Three Worlds. Note: The characters who returned in Lightning Saga are Wally's children, not the original Tornado Twins, who are Barry's.
Iris West Allen came from the 30th century, and the Tornado Twins were conceived during the Flash's brief 1 month stay in the future with her before Crisis. For the next few years, this will only work if Iris is still assumed to be 30th Century, but the Legion is 31st. Also, Iris's 30th century is inconsistent with the Legion's anyway, but this was a problem even pre-Crisis and was never really resolved.
Reboot and threeboot crossovers: Action Comics #864 establishes that Final Night (reboot) and the Brave and the Bold #1-6 (threeboot) still happened with their respective teams, implying that most crossovers still happened as published with whatever version of the Legion is involved just travelling from their own timeline. Also note that the clone Superboy still has his reboot flight ring (Adventure #10). This explanation doesn't work for every crossover, however--for instance, it seems unlikely that three versions of Mon-El came to Earth, were sent into the Phantom Zone three times, and came out into the correct future each time. And then there was the Kyle Rayner Green Lantern crossover which depended on a person in the future actually being his descendant. Titans/LSH couldn't have happened either, but that doesn't matter since it erased itself from history anyway.
Starboy: The Lightning Saga, Legion of Three Worlds and his JSA appearances have called into question some of Starboy's original tenure with the Legion. There are two major points: (A) did Star Boy rejoin the Legion with Dream Girl as originally presented or was he among the Subs longer? (Lightning Saga says he was kicked out of the Legion after killing Kenz Nuhor, phrased in a way which implies he didn't return.) (B) Did he receive his black-starry costume at the same time (which allows him to travel through the multiverse or something), and if so, does that firmly plant the original meeting of the three Legions between the end of the Action Comics back-up stories and the beginning of the Superboy back-up stories within the PB/JB timeline?
Lois Lane has a flight ring (Action #900).
Plot elements that originated in other continuities: Dragonmage existed (5YL/reboot)
The name "Garridian" (5YL)--he was just called Validus in V3.
LSH#1: Dr. Aven as Saturn Girl's mentor (reboot). Superboy/LSH #236 had Professor Vndarr instead.
Kent Shakespeare (5YL) briefly appears in Superman/Batman #80 as a future Superman.
Changes to other Legion versions (non-retcon, retcon, or mistake)
The "first" untold Legion of Three Worlds story shows Brainiac 5 and Kid Quantum together in the reboot, which is not consistent with when they joined.
L3W: Kinetix killed by Superboy-Prime, power and memories absorbed by current Mordru, in turn absorbed by the Black Witch.
L3W: Threeboot Sun Boy and Element Lad killed by Superboy-Prime.
L3W: Current Earth Brainiac 5 transforms postboot Live Wire's body into a Garth body.
L3W: Shikari returns to her Legion, fixes dangler from the start of the Threeboot. Misspelled as "Shakari". (Shikari had also been shown on her own Earth in Infinite Crisis #6, which may not be consistent.)
[ October 17, 2012, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Language Arts Lad on :
Ir's the COSTUME that lets Starman move about? I missed that one.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Isn't the costume a map or something?
Which doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense... but...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Cobalt Kid: If you want it back, just say so.
Nope, I like you taking over!
Keep it going and I'll add suggestions/opinions as we go.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
And here are some...
(1) I don't think we can make any assumptions about Pete Ross and the Legion. For all we know it's happened and we the readers are as unaware of it as Superman. I feel like this will one day be addressed.
(2) I feel like we've figured this out before, but I think the Legion of 3 Worlds original meeting likely occurred at the end of the Adventure run, and is when Thom got the costume.
(3) Regarding Thom's tenure per the original continuity, we can probably safely say it remains the same. All there ever was were some confusing implications by Geoff and Brad Meltzer that didn't really reveal anything. Probably Meltzer never read the original stories and didn't realize he was making things confusing. But they never actually said anything that didn't fit.
(4) The statue thing can be explained by a number of things and isn't really all that big a deal. Superman's robots were cleaning them or something. Just because the artist didn't have a reference and forgot to include Tyroc and Chemical King, doesn't mean any continuity is changed.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Well, I did say the statues could be mistakes.
Actually, I think that continuity cops, both fans and writers, are often too unwilling to admit that some things are mistakes. It's nice to come up with some unwieldy explanation (or worse, a retcon) that explains a mistake, but those have a cost; they make the series as a whole make less sense, a little bit at a time. It's often better in the long term to just accept that there's a mistake, and pretend it never happened, then to try to explain it away and damage the entire series.
I really hope they don't add a retcon saying that Infectious Lass was a member for a week just to explain away one poorly written line in Dr. 13.
As for Pete Ross, Wikipedia says that in modern continuity he does know Clark's secret, but learned it as an adult.
[ April 27, 2010, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I think rather, we could chalk it up to Dr. 13 just not understanding her past.
I have a feeling the statues will never be addressed. And like you, I hope they never are too. Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
The statues are fairly unimportant, as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully they'll forget about Projectra having two hearts and the whole Wildfire/Red Tornado thing, as well...
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Infectious Lass herself uttered the line, it's not Dr. 13's mistake, it's a writer mistake.
PS: What two hearts thing? It should go in the list, even if just as a "I hope we forget this retcon" item.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I think she says something about that in the Lightning Saga.
Posted by Set on :
Myg went from younger than the rest of the team and a bronze-skinned asian to a caucasian with some grey hairs. IIRC, the previous version of Myg was captured by Dominators and experimented upon and may have had sonic powers when rescued, as well.
Fanon potential explanation under spoiler;
Click Here For A Spoiler Myg was captured by the Dominators, only the dude rescued wasn't the original, but a clone / copy / something, and the original bronze-skinned youth is still out there somewhere...
Yera was once said to have a different range of expression than Chameleon Boy, and that 'not all Durlans are the same,' but now she seems to be able to increase her mass and turn into tentacle-monsters and the like.
Fanon potential explanation under spoiler;
Click Here For A Spoiler Yera was greatly damaged in an energy discharge, and 30% or more of her biomass disintegrated. She would have died if not for a 'transfusion' of mass from Chameleon Boy, and, in a rare reaction to his infusion, she gained powers more similar to his, with either her cells learning from his, or her cells being replaced over many months with his. Could lead to story potential as Yera would now have had a very intimate connection with Cham during this time, which Gim might have even encouraged, since he couldn't save her life, but Cham could.
Alternately, her ability to generate all sorts of mass could come from Gim! It is his power, after all. Wounded, she needs biomass to replenish her lost tissue, and they aren't in a place with a handy supply of organic material, so Gim grows to large size and gives her a blood transfusion himself, several gallons worth, which causes a reaction as her body assimilates the transfusion. Perhaps she becomes a Legionnaire soon after, noting that she's already in danger, as a result of her marriage to one, so she might as well join the team and *earn* the ire of Legion foes!
Mordru and Mekt 'un-redeemed' and turned back to cackling bad-guys, after getting over their issues and becoming halfway decent characters.
Fanon potential explanation under spoiler;
Click Here For A Spoiler Johns wanted to use those classic characters and found their character growth to have been stifling his 'creative' license to use older characters, rather than invent new ones.
Or Prime punched the timestream or something, and the bad-guys he wanted on his team turned evil again, since the very notion that bad-guys could be redeemed, or 'turn into weakling good-guys' so terribly offended him. And perhaps scared him a little. Mekt and Mordru looked so happy, post-villainy, and that threatened his fragile assumption that being the bad-guy was the only way to be!
[ April 27, 2010, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Set ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Set: It's hard to tell if you're serious. The best explanation for Yera is the shapeshifter equivalent of "doing a lot of superheroing made her stronger". The only one of those which I'd even count as a list item is Mekt and Mordru.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Well, Mekt was never redeemed until TMK. Levitz never did anything with that, so his days as Lightning Lord fit right in with the current continuity.
That all happened off-panel in the 5 year gap, as revealed in TMK.
Posted by Crymsun on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Isn't the costume a map or something?
Which doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense... but...
Supposedly, Thom's costume is a map of the multiverse, created by the three Brainy's during the first Legion of 3 Worlds. When Thom creates a singularity or black hole.. not sure which.. he can travel through the multiverse using the costume as a guide.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
"Crap, I'm lost! This part of the multiverse is on my back... let me take my shirt off!"
Posted by Crymsun on :
Death of Superboy This could have still happened. The Pocket Universe still could have been created by the Time Trapper to mess with the Legion, and the pocket universe Superboy still could have died. Maybe the Legionnaires assumed this was the real Superboy, and started the Conspiracy?
If the pocket universe did not exist, then Superman never would have executed the three kryptonians from the Phantom Zone, Matrix would never have existed to be "Supergirl" and Superman would not have exiled himself and came across the Eradicator and Mongul.
The pocket universe has to exist in continuity. What do you guys think?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
It's pretty much established that we didn't have a Conspiracy. For one thing, Mon-El is still alive.
And Superman has had his history rewritten several times since that pocket universe story, so saying "if there was no pocket universe, then Superman..." is pointless.
Really, the pocket universe was an awful patch job that was the best that could be done at the time, but which we're better off without if we don't need it any more.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I'm pretty sure it was said by Geoff or whoever that there was no pocket universe in an interview (which we're using to complete the continuity).
But oh boy, talk about a headache for Superman's history. Good thing Matrix is officially eliminated from continuity already so its already a mess .
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Someone mentioned in another thread that Reflecto was missing from the statues. I don't think that counts; it's a different set of statues after all. I know that normally "dead Legionnaires" is a subset of "all Legionnaires", but the special circumstances of Reflecto would mean that just because he's in the dead Legionnaires set doesn't mean he's in every set.
Posted by lil'rhino on :
Yeah, I only mentioned him because I remember a memorial statue of him at the end of the Reflecto storyline. BTW, by listing the statues missing in Lo3W, I didn't mean to imply that I thought those Legionnaires' deaths are no longer in continuity. I was just trying to show that the statues shown were incomplete, therefore not answering the question of whether Magnetic Kid was dead or not. In other words, I was of no help at all! LOL!!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I added a bit about Iris West Allen a few days ago, and after looking at Luornu's scene in Legion of Three Worlds, fixed that reference.
I'm starting to suspect that Countdown was simply a mistake. Whoever wrote it just didn't realize that 1) Karate Kid shouldn't be alive in the preboot, and 2) Luornu shouldn't be down to one body, since there was no Conspiracy. It's not as if Countdown didn't have plenty of other mistakes (so many that it's not completely in continuity).
As for Luornu's new powers, Mutiny of the Super-Heroines (Adventure #368) has her gaining the ability to split into many duplicates; maybe someone found a way to make that happen again. (Edited post: I originally confused this with the Femnaz story from #326.)
[ May 05, 2010, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Jerry on :
That answer's not good enough for me. Countdown was advertised a being "the spine of the DC Universe" for the time that it was in print. It was a weekly comic that was a big financial investment for those who were loyal to DC and picked it up consistently. That doesn't apply to me. I only picked up occasional issues and felt ripped off just doing that. There should be an attempt to explain the contradictions other than just "mistakes" or saying that is wasn't completely in continuity.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Well, it was Johns and Meltzer who brought Karate Kid back for the Lightning Saga, so I don't think you can blame it solely on Countdown.
And wasn't it Thora that enhanced Lu's powers?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Yeah, I just misremembered it. I corrected it a few minutes later but you people respond at exactly the wrong times.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
And personally, I'm happy with saying mistakes are mistakes. See my first reply on page 1. Sometimes it can be interesting to retcon away a mistake, and sometimes it's even necessary, but there's a point where fixing the mistake isn't worth forever making the series' history 1% or 2% harder to understand.
Posted by Jerry on :
I think the KK and Lu's places on the current list are appropriate and the related issues need to be addressed. I'm also fine with mistakes being overlooked, at times. Not here, though. Countdown was advertised as being central to understanding where the DC Universe was going. As with any series, I would be be fine letting minor mistakes in Countdown slide, but not major plot lines. Their involvement was substantial, and as EDE points out, Karate Kid was a major player in the Lightning Saga.
Pretty comprehensive list, btw. I agree with most of the categorization. Carry on.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Also fixed the statues. The disappearances hadn't happened as of Legion of Three Worlds and are a red herring.
Posted by Blacula on :
This is a great thread Ken! I kept meaning to do something like this but was too lazy so well done to you for putting all the effort into it!
Going through some of the things you mention -
* I don't think even DC has fully decided yet what's going on with that whole pocket-Universe idea. Retconning it out completely invalidates a whole bunch of good storylines that I'd hate to lose, but working it into current continuity seems like it would require a 12 issue-long byzantine explanation.
I still say that it all could have happened and the effects of it (like Mon and Lu dying) were just reversed somehow between the end of the Baxter run and the beginning of the Johnsboot.
* The statues are a complete non-issue to me and don't really belong on this list IMO. Artists leave characters off group shots all the time. Doesn't mean anything.
* The Miracle Machine could have been rebuilt or something between S&LSH #251 and Final Crisis. Or else it just willed itself back into existence. It is the Miracle Machine after all. Not much of an issue for me.
* The Wildfire/Red Tornado and Jeckie/two hearts things need to be forgotten and never mentioned again!
I feel like there are a few other things you've missed but I can't quite think of them now. If I remember them I'll let you know.
One that I don't think is an issue though is this one -
quote:Originally posted by Set: Myg went from younger than the rest of the team and a bronze-skinned asian to a caucasian with some grey hairs.
I'm really not seeing that in the issues of Lo3W I've got. He's got a beard yes but doesn't look any older than the others to me and his skin tone still looks a lot more orange/yellow/grey (whatever the colourists use to denote 'other' race characters) than the caucasian Legionnaires.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Couldn't there be more than one Miracle Machine? The Controllers built the thing. It always seemed to me improbable that they gave away the only one they had.
Posted by Blacula on :
^ That's a good point Eryk.
I forgot to mention re: Karate Kid -
In my mind what I think they were trying to do with him was... they knew they were bringing back the 'original' Legion and whoever was planning that (Johns and Meltzer?) were probably big Val fans who thought they'd give him one last hurrah before putting him to sleep again.
So they gave him a few cool moments in JLofA (and if he hadn't been rather ridiculously jobbed by Batman in their fight that would have been a cool moment too) as well as a starring role in what was supposed to be their BIG series of 2008(?)(though we all know how that turned out).
But he was always scheduled to die again so as not to change the status quo of the Baxter Legion too much (and I think Giffen even said as much - that the decision to kill Karate Kid in Countdown had already been made and he just jumped at the chance to write it).
Posted by Set on :
Maybe after Tenzil, uh, passed, what was left of the Miracle Machine, it re-assembled itself?
Miracle Poop!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Jerry: I'm also fine with mistakes being overlooked, at times. Not here, though. Countdown was advertised as being central to understanding where the DC Universe was going.
I'm asking that we recognize a mistake in something that's already so full of mistakes that it's out of continuity anyway for reasons that have nothing to do with the Legion. It was advertised as central, but it turned into a complete mess. It's not as if its only mistake was related to the Legion.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by Jerry: I'm also fine with mistakes being overlooked, at times. Not here, though. Countdown was advertised as being central to understanding where the DC Universe was going.
I'm asking that we recognize a mistake in something that's already so full of mistakes that it's out of continuity anyway for reasons that have nothing to do with the Legion. It was advertised as central, but it turned into a complete mess. It's not as if its only mistake was related to the Legion.
Ken has a point. Countdown had massive effects on Captain Atom, Jimmy Olsen and other characters that are now being essentially ignored. It might not even exist in continuity at all. It doesn't even tie into Final Crisis. *If* no one ever addresses it again, there is no evidence it exists in continuity just like there is not evidence it does not exist in continuity. It's simply too ambiguous.
That being said, I would LOVE if Paul came in and straitened it out.
As for the Pocket Universe--it simply does not exist. I know some of us might want to hang on to it, but if this is the original pre-Crisis Legion with Superboy, all logic says the Pocket Universe is now void. This is something that I think we can all assume will never be addressed either.
I suspect the Magnetic Kid question will be answered in the first few issues of the Legion series.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Whatever you do with Countdown itself, the fact remains that Karate Kid needs some sort of explanation, since he was prominent in the Lightning Saga, and Duplicate Damsel's power upgrade has to be explained somehow, so her history needs to be straightened out. I don't think there's any escaping it, *if* you want to have a coherent Legion continuity.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Paul should handle it this way: three pages, 12 panels, part of a much better, more important story that requires a little backstory explanation.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
An explanation for KK in two panels:
Panel 1:
caption: Brainiac Five's Multi-Lab
Sun Boy: Hey Brainy! Cosmic Boy sent me down here to... hey, are you working on that cloning machine again?
Brainy: Yes. While I've managed to drastically increase the lifespan of the clones from a day when we created the Lyle Norg and Andrew Nolan clones, it still appears as though any clone we create will only have a lifespan of a few months, as did the Val Armorr clone we created recently.
Panel 2
Sun Boy: Well, keep at it. Anyway, Cosmic Boy wants to know [something relevant to the current plot]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Well, Countdown is explained for Luornu, in that Legion of Three Worlds scene--yes, a body of Luornu's died in Countdown, no, it wasn't her last one contrary to what Countdown implied.
Also, in other Legion connections, Superboy Prime's appearance in Countdown seems to not be in continuity either. I don't have the issues, but someone made this comment on tvtropes.org:
quote:Johns does two other more subtle discontinuity nods to Countdown in Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds. The first is when Superboy Prime discovers the historical record of himself in a museum and it mentions that the last anyone ever saw of him was in the Sinestro Corp Wars (which took place before Countdown). The other is at the end, where Superboy Prime has landed in his resurrected universe and it seems he's finally acheived his goal, but it turns out that all his loved ones have been reading the comics that he appeared in and are now terrified of him. This is revealed by his father showing him all the comics and trade paperbacks that that he appeared as a villain in...except Countdown.
And then again in the Adventure Comics Blackest Night tie-in, which is a sequel to Prime's Legion of Three Worlds epilogue. At one point, Black Lantern Alexander Luthor shows Prime visions of all the horrible things he's done...you guessed it, everything except for the things he did in Countdown.
[ May 08, 2010, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Jerry on :
Has anyone with DC said that Countdown isn't in continuity? My beef isn't with confused fans. It's with DC editorial. The new Legion creative team should address these issues rather than just ignore them. Some fans invested over $150 in the series. When Levitz takes over he should provide some explanation. It might be big of us to put it on a list and say it was a mistake so he doesn't have to. I don't think we should. We're letting DC off the hook too easily if we do.
[ May 08, 2010, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Jerry, I agree with you but with one major difference. I,too, feel DC owes us an explanation--I got taken by Countdown too and you can see that thread for me ripping it apart. But I don't want the explanation in Paul's LSH; I don't want him to be hampered by it and think it's unfair. He shouldn't be on the hook--I'd much rather it be in an annual, secret files or even an interview. Just not in the new series. Please no more continuity-fix driven stories! We want new ones!
So I'd rather another avenue for an explanation. But yeah, I'd like something too.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I couldn't agree more Cobie!
Posted by Jerry on :
For me, it does fall to Paul. Whether it be in the main series, Adventure, a special or annual, or interview doesn't matter. Paul wrote the original death of Karate Kid. The Legion has been rebooted twice (at least) since he left the series. DC screwed loyal readers and buyers of both reboots at the end their respective runs. DC screwed loyal readers who picked up Countdown on the promise that it featured characters who were part of Levitz's "classic" Legion.
Yes, we need to move on. Yes, we want new stories. No, we don't want to get forever bogged down in fixing continuity glitches. Ultimately, though, many of us don't yet accept this new version as the team that Levitz once wrote. He has stated that it is. If that's his vision, it is his job to sell it to an audience that has some good reasons to be skeptical. I don't see how he can accomplish that while ignoring major elements of the story that reintroduced his team and brought back a character he killed off. Also, Paul is, and always has been, a DC company guy. I believe that he is the type of man who would feel a responsibility to make things right with readers who feel that they've been wronged by the company.
Again, part of it for me is the size of the issue. I don't need every little glitch to be fixed. Karate Kid's resurrection was a major part of the story line that introduced this version of the team. Levitz is capable of making an interesting story out of it.
[ May 08, 2010, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by Mattropolis on :
Hopefully it will just be a quick line or two so we can get down to the business of new stories and new adventures. I have waited many many years for this and I'm not really interested in a story about Karate Kid's resurrection since he is already dead again.
Posted by Blacula on :
I get that some people who read Countdown might want some sort of explanation for the craposity of it... but what about all the rest of us who bailed on that sinking ship very early on and haven't thought about it since?
Should our enjoyment of the new Legion book be hampered by a writer forced to undertake the herculean task of spinning gold from that bag of shit?
I don't think so. DC's writers and editors have clearly all moved on and pretended nearly everything to do with that mess never happened. And most readers are perfectly happy for them to continue to do so. I don't think we (or the new writers who didn't have anything to do with that turd) should be beholden to those who need some sort of explanation for every little detail in that clusterf--- of a book that doesn't match the continuity they remember.
I don't even see what needs explaining from it -
* Karate Kid was brought back to life in an as-yet untold story. Shortly afterward, he tragically died again. * In another as-yet untold story, Duo Damsel gained the ability to create multiple copies of herself. One of those bodies went back in time and died.
The end. What else needs explaining? And do those stories need explaining anyway? The Legion have loads of unexplained stories in their history (see: Mordru and the Legion, First Meeting of).
Posted by Mattropolis on :
you said it much better than I could have Blacula
Posted by Jerry on :
Wow. Comic fans really have become jaded by all the death in comic books. Bring back a major character. Kill him off. No explanation needed. Fair enough. I stand corrected.
Posted by cleome on :
I can outdo Blacula. I don't much care because I wasn't around for Countdown and couldn't care less about it or any other Big Event of the last two decades. Just get on with it and tell me some damn stories, DC.
Posted by Blacula on :
quote:Originally posted by Jerry: Wow. Comic fans really have become jaded by all the death in comic books. Bring back a major character. Kill him off. No explanation needed. Fair enough. I stand corrected.
Well I'm just one fan. But I know where you're coming from Jerry. Even though, yes - I have become a very jaded comics fan thanks to the constant and unwelcome cycle of death, death, death and rebirth in them, I think my reluctance to want to go back to the Countdown well is because it was SUCH an awful, awful, awful story.
If Karate Kid's story had been told anywhere else, I probably would want to know more about it. But if learning more about Val means having to think more about that above-mentioned turd then I think I'd rather just cut my losses, y'know?
Posted by Language Arts Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: I don't think we (or the new writers who didn't have anything to do with that turd) should be beholden to those who need some sort of explanation for every little detail in that clusterf--- of a book that doesn't match the continuity they remember.
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, but by this argument, THESE new stories don't match up with the continuity I remember, because they ignore the 5 year gap. And we have a decade and a half of reboot and threeboot members who aren't seeing the Legion they grew up with.
I learned a LONNNNNNG time ago (with the pocket universe) that while I love the rich history and, yes, the sense continuity of the Legion, I can't be that picky, because the company doesn't care. So, the writers aren't going to have to, either.
Posted by Set on :
It would be funny if, somewhere in the first few issues of the new Legion, Karate Kid joined for a mission, and, while it would never be stated in text, it would basically indicate that his death in Countdown was now dis-continuity.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Even funnier... Chemical King just shows up for a few issues with no explanation, then dies again, and no one seems to find it odd!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Bump.
I edited this to mention the reboot crossover problem, Durla in Adventure Comics, and Countdown not being in continuity. It seems that editing a post in a thread doesn't update the date, so nobody knows I added anything...
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
It'll be fun when we can shortly start crossing things off this list or further defining them! I might reread each issue of LSH just to do exactly that (naturally I would hope each issue isn't dedicated to ironing this out, but I hope it happens tangentially).
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Adventure #11 had Chemical King in it for a second confirming his membership is the same as its always been.
(not sure if this was mentioned already).
So, we know Tyroc is still around from solicitations and therefore the statue thing is solved at long last.
I haven't read LSH #1 yet, but it deals with Imra & Garth's kids.
One request: everytime you update the first post, could you post a new post as well to this thread to tell us the updates? Just to satisfy my curiosity as to where we are.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I just edited it now for a minor update on Validus ("in progress") and to point out that the TMK name Garridian is now canon. (Admittedly, it wasn't a very smart idea keeping his name Validus to begin with. I can't imagine any parent actually doing that.)
Edit: Also to mention Chemical King in Adventure #11. In truth, the statues aren't really a problem since they're just statues and nothing says that a couple of them couldn't have been broken by a villain battle a week before the story. Although they were a problem back when Lightning Saga came out and everyone was trying to figure out what the continuity was like using the statues as clues. It's clear by now that the writer or artist was just careless.
Also, mentioning Saturn Girl's telekinesis.
[ May 20, 2010, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again to mention that Superboy was Superboy only in the future.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Regarding Saturn Girl 'having telekinesis', I said in the original LSH thread and still stand by it, that there is really no evidence at all that suggests that.
It is 100% pure speculation on the part of fandom based on some potential artistic renderings. It is not in the story at all and Paul even explains she is 'using her telepathy'.
I honestly don't think anyone can say she might have telekinesis until we actually hear the words "telenkinesis" in the LSH story.
I'd remove it. (I do see you put it under the 'possible mistakes' category though).
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: Regarding Saturn Girl 'having telekinesis', I said in the original LSH thread and still stand by it, that there is really no evidence at all that suggests that.
She's 'thinking' at a falling column on the top of page 24, instead of rescuing the people it's about to crush.
In the very next panel, she's snatching a child who is about to fall into a chasm, indicating that she is physically capable of pulling people out of danger. (Which what she *could* have to the couple about to be squished by the column, instead of floating there, watching them die, while 'using telepathy.')
So what is she doing in the top panel, again? Is she telepathically telling the couple about to die, "Hey, you're about to die. Sucks to be you. Before you die, have you seen my kids?" Is she telepathically sedating them, so they won't feel the pain as the stone breaks their bones and crushes their organs? Is she asking them if they have family she should notify about their untimely deaths?
What is the point of her using 'telepathy' in that top panel? Is she comforting them? Taunting them? Feeding off of their fear and devouring their souls? Ripping their bank-codes out of their brains, so that she can empty their accounts before they are legally declared dead in the post-crisis confusion?
The third/fourth panel similarly shows her using 'telepathy' while rubble falls onto a crowd of people. If she's using telekinesis to stop the rubble, well, that's useful. If she's just standing around with her hand to her temple, there's not really much justifcation for that. Is she telling everyone, again, that they are about to be squished? Is she apologizing for not being able to save them? Is she telepathically absorbing their psyches, so that, after their bodies are crushed and they 'die,' she can go back to earth and clone new bodies for them and telepathically download their thoughts and memories into these new clones, making it like they never died?
I dunno. There's no text saying one way or another. She's just depicted as floating there, watching people die, while using 'telepathy,' which, traditionally, isn't terribly useful against falling rocks.
On page 27 she 'uses telepathy' on a window and it breaks. The art makes it look like she did something to the window, but telepathy doesn't break glass. (Not even if she 'shouts real loud,' since, even if she's the Ella Fitzgerald of telepaths, you can't break a glass by thinking the right note.)
Looking at that panel in a vacuum, it's *entirely possible* that an earthquake just happened to break the window while she was floating there, using telepathy to try and find her boys, but, if that's the intent of that picture, it sure wasn't made clear, and, it's negated as a possibility in the very next frame, where we see the inside of the room, with lamps, a book stand, a computer monitor and even an action figure (the one on the desk, not the one on the floor) *all standing up.* If an earthquake had broken the window, the action figure, at least, would have fallen over, and probably the books from the shelves, etc., etc.
So even when I try to go out of my way to make an excuse for how the breaking window wasn't telekinesis, the very next frame works against me and says, 'no earthquake here.'
If Paul does not intend for her to have TK, then awesome, 'cause I don't think that the woman who can read thoughts, send thoughts, knock out Mon-El and Ultra Boy with a glance, create psychic illusions, mind control people, detect the presence of thinking minds, incite or suppress emotions, telepathically sedate people, etc. really *needs* another power.
Saturn Girl, like most telepaths, is crazy good. She doesn't need Telluses powers, too.
I don't know if this was an artistic flub, or a writer flub, but it was a flub, even if the flub was no text stating that she was absorbing the dying people's minds telepathically, with the intent of spitting them out into cloned bodies later.
But, IMO, the option that she was using telepathy to 'save their data before the hardware was squished' is *less likely* than that she was intended by the artistic representation to be affecting stone and glass with her powers.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Levitz clearly did not intend for her to have TK, so I'd chalk it up to Cinar's unfamiliarity with the characters.
I'd agree from the scans of the two pages that it's hard to interpret them any other way.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Set, we're in total agreement about what's Paul's intentions might be--definitely don't want Imra to have the TK.
Eryk is very likely right and its an artistic mistake. But Paul does not expressly state she has TK so I would say she does not have it. Likely it will not be addressed ever again.
I would chalk this up to another 'statues in Lightning Saga' debacle.
*If* there was any TK being used, than quite simply, she was using her flight ring to do it.
Posted by Vee on :
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
*If* there was any TK being used, than quite simply, she was using her flight ring to do it.
Or the simple answer which no one has mentioned... as a Legionnaire she is used to acting in emergencies. Most Titanians are not even though they may have powers which she does not.
She may simply be using her powers to control some of the other poeple in an emergency and using their TK powers to stop the falling column, debris, etc.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Vee: Or the simple answer which no one has mentioned... as a Legionnaire she is used to acting in emergencies. Most Titanians are not even though they may have powers which she does not.
Someone upthread may have mentioned the possibility that she was somehow 'gestalting' the power of the other Titanians, pooling all of that telepathic power to do things that no telepath could do (although I'm pretty sure they didn't use the word gestalt).
There's also the possibility that Titanians, already long-ago associated with mental changes as a result of the rings of Saturn, might have additional psychic powers on Titan, which they don't have off-world.
But none of that was mentioned, and for it to be assumed without any text would be like assuming that Braalians also can transform into a giant metal form, but only on Braal, so we've never seen Rokk do it before.
Sure, *we* can come up with explanations for how she appeared to do something not in her traditional power-set, but should *we* be the ones doing this?
I just pay for the comic, I shouldn't have to fill in the missing text, any more than I should be expected to color in an uncolored page.
[Although that sort of thing could be funky, and I'd love to see what Loser Lad would do with an uncolored version of a Legion book!]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
This may be a fairly minor, easily dealt with thing, but I noticed it when I was reading the issue:
Saturn Girl says something in this issue about never having been religious, but she and Garth baptized Graym on Titan in v3 #16.
[ May 31, 2010, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Eryk Davis Ester ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Tromium mentioned in her review that Dr. Aven seems to have replace Professor Vndaar as Imra's Titanian mentor, although I suppose she could have had more than one mentor.
Posted by Set on :
Imra's always been a space hussy, she probably went through mentors the way we go through chewing gum!
Or, being perhaps the strongest telepath of her generation, she might have had teachers and trainers and mentors politicking behind closed doors for the opportunity to work with her!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: This may be a fairly minor, easily dealt with thing, but I noticed it when I was reading the issue:
Saturn Girl says something in this issue about never having been religious, but she and Garth baptized Graym on Titan in v3 #16.
Okay, it's in.
This one probably falls into the category of examples where Paul can't remember every little thing he wrote 25 years ago.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
It could be that:
a) She participates in religious customs, without considering herself particularly religious.
b) It was Garth's idea to baptize the kid
c) The "baptism" isn't really a religious ceremony, but some sort of similar, secular Titanian custom
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Over on the DC boards there's a thread about Saturn Girl in the preview for Adventure #12 claiming to be an orphan, *and* someone saying that a fan contacted Levitz on Facebook and it's just a mistake. This is now added.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I wonder if Garridian Ranzz was also just another mistake, not an intentional use of 5YL material. This one's probably okay, though, since I don't see why she would want to call him Validus.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I'd say that, as with Aven, it is an intentional incorporation of later material. Paul probably realized how silly it was to call the baby "Validus" (especially with another monster Validus running around), and decided to go with the previously established name.
Posted by BouncingBear on :
Would someone please explain the whole Garridian mess for me? I thought that Darkseid basically stole Garridian out of Saturn Girl's womb before he was even born, and Saturn Girl didn't even realize she had a second child. The idea of Garridian didn't occurr until the 5YG. So this is a MAJOR difference from the original to what is happening now.
Posted by Rusty Shackleford on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: It could be that:
a) She participates in religious customs, without considering herself particularly religious.
b) It was Garth's idea to baptize the kid
c) The "baptism" isn't really a religious ceremony, but some sort of similar, secular Titanian custom
I hashed this one out on another board and found very few people were concerned about this discrepancy. There's been more talk about Saturn Girl's TK, in fact, and that's something I didn't notice at all. But FWIW, after reviewing the Baptism issue:
* the ceremony took place on Titan, as you mentioned. So if it were Garth's idea, seems to reason the ceremony would have happened on Winath. * the Interlac displayed at the church was John 3:16, plus there were crosses galore, so it wasn't a generic, unspecified custom.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by BouncingBear: Would someone please explain the whole Garridian mess for me? I thought that Darkseid basically stole Garridian out of Saturn Girl's womb before he was even born, and Saturn Girl didn't even realize she had a second child. The idea of Garridian didn't occurr until the 5YG. So this is a MAJOR difference from the original to what is happening now.
Yes, Darkseid stole the child without Imra's knowledge. However, she got the child back in one of the v3 annuals. Bizarrely, she and Garth still referred to the kid as "Validus" through the end of Levitz's run. The name "Garridan" is from 5YL.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by Rusty Shackleford:
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: It could be that:
a) She participates in religious customs, without considering herself particularly religious.
b) It was Garth's idea to baptize the kid
c) The "baptism" isn't really a religious ceremony, but some sort of similar, secular Titanian custom
I hashed this one out on another board and found very few people were concerned about this discrepancy. There's been more talk about Saturn Girl's TK, in fact, and that's something I didn't notice at all. But FWIW, after reviewing the Baptism issue:
* the ceremony took place on Titan, as you mentioned. So if it were Garth's idea, seems to reason the ceremony would have happened on Winath. * the Interlac displayed at the church was John 3:16, plus there were crosses galore, so it wasn't a generic, unspecified custom.
Hmm... it's been ages since I've read that issue. I didn't remember it being so Christian-specific.
Maybe we can chalk it up to her now suddenly being an orphan? Posted by Set on :
As long as 'new Imra' isn't parentless because of her high midichlorian count and some prophecy about bringing balance to the universe, I'm satisfied.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Luornu in Countdown/Legion of Three Worlds -- Countdown killed "Una", whose name and lack of powers implies that that was her last body. Legion of Three Worlds later showed a surviving Luornu who said she was Duo Damsel until a body died in the 21st Century (i.e. Countdown) meaning it was not her last body. (Countdown is notorious for mistakes to the extent that it's hardly part of continuity any more and this could just have been fixing a mistake.)
Actually, if I recall correctly, in the Supergirl tie-in to Countdown, Lu tells Kara that her other body is back in the 31st (I recall her telling someone that. Pretty sure it was Kara).
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Supergirl -- Supergirl #52 revealed that Brainy still remembers Supergirl's death and probably most of her tenure with the Legion. He assumes the modern Supergirl is her (from before her death but after she joined the Legion) and blames Supergirl's lack of memory on Saturn Girl's post-hypnotic suggestion to forget the future. Whether the modern Supergirl is the same as the one who joined the PB/JB Legion and will die in our future is unknown and may be resolved in Supergirl Annual 2.
Also - Querl mentions (in thoughts) that he is carefully telling Kara only certain things, and behaving a certain way - based upon what she had told him of that very team-up.
that basically clinches that she is the same Kara he knew.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: This may be a fairly minor, easily dealt with thing, but I noticed it when I was reading the issue:
Saturn Girl says something in this issue about never having been religious, but she and Garth baptized Graym on Titan in v3 #16.
that might have been simply bowing to family traditions. plenty of people go through the motions, especially for key life rituals, but don't consider themselves religious.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
As I suggested :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
a) She participates in religious customs, without considering herself particularly religious.
Posted by doublechinner on :
Fun thread! Although we need someone to start a thread on the character aspects of the new Legion, just to balance the AR aspect of this thread!
On KK and Lu in JLA, JSA and Countdown: I think it was made pretty clear somewhere along the way that these two were somehow snatched out of time immediately prior to their deaths for their mission to the past, which is why, at the end of the Lightning Saga, they are forbidden to return to the future. The why and how of this seems iffy to me, although I guess you could argue that Val, at least, was critical to the Lightning Saga (catching Bart Allen in a bottle...rod) and Brainy wouldn't let a little thing like death get in the way of a mission (and the Legion was overtaxed and short-handed at that time because of the JLE thing).
Also, on the excellent Legion of Substitute Podcasters interview with Levitz, he's clear that we read too much into Imra's TK poses and claims about religion. He noted that he's Jewish but willingly participated in the baptism of his 3 kids into his wife's faith.
More annoying to me at the moment is the status of the Legionnaires' homeworlds and whether they are "aliens" or mutated human colonists. Saturn Girl refers to Titan as a "colony" in Legion #1 when a month earlier it was the resettlement site of the Lanothians.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: More annoying to me at the moment is the status of the Legionnaires' homeworlds and whether they are "aliens" or mutated human colonists. Saturn Girl refers to Titan as a "colony" in Legion #1 when a month earlier it was the resettlement site of the Lanothians.
I don't sweat stuff like this.
It could be as simple as that J'emm's people never let Titanians forget that they were not indigenous to Titan,
Or
The original Lanothian population was joined by a larger Earth colonist population, and blending over time retained a world-view that traced itslineage more to Earth than to Lanoth (or whatever that world was called),
Or
Within entrenched Lanothian culture, any settlement away from the homeworld is still thought of as a colony, and there is still yearning for an ancestral place that exists only in collective memory,
Or
any number of other things
This is a perfect example of why I myself prefer just to enjoy the story and not worry too much about little things like that. There are bound to be a few inconsistencies.
No character (Imra, or anyone else) is going to think of her own history the way her ancestors experienced it. There is always blurring into mythology over time; details are lost, parts are invented.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: On KK and Lu in JLA, JSA and Countdown: I think it was made pretty clear somewhere along the way that these two were somehow snatched out of time immediately prior to their deaths for their mission to the past
But they died in Lightning Saga. How could they be snatched from before their deaths so that they could die in a different way?
Also, Luornu, at the point where she reveals she can split into a lot of bodies, makes a reference that sounds an awful lot like one of her bodies died in Countdown.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: Also, on the excellent Legion of Substitute Podcasters interview with Levitz, he's clear that we read too much into Imra's TK poses and claims about religion. He noted that he's Jewish but willingly participated in the baptism of his 3 kids into his wife's faith.
More annoying to me at the moment is the status of the Legionnaires' homeworlds and whether they are "aliens" or mutated human colonists. Saturn Girl refers to Titan as a "colony" in Legion #1 when a month earlier it was the resettlement site of the Lanothians.
These two snippets, of course, tie together interestingly.
Winathians are now 'aliens' and not human colonists. Titanians are now 'aliens' and not human colonists.
Which of them is Catholic, again?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Modified to add a mention of the date inconsistency in Adventure #12, as well as Dev-Em.
Posted by doublechinner on :
There are any number of fun possibilities to resolve these discrepancies, but I doubt they would be worth a story. One could imagine, for instance, that at some point the Lanothians "convinced" themselves they were an Earth colony--maybe during a period when Earth was aggressive, or just really, really cool. It's not at all unusual for ethnic groups to have completely fictitious origin stories -- like the Romans with Aeneas, Romulus and Remus, the Romanians with the Dacians. And if anyone could pull off such self-deception, it's telepaths. Or, as you all point out, the Titanians may have always thought of themselves as a colony, a people displaced from their true home, and not necessarily welcome to the Saturnians.
As to the Catholicism thing, on word: Evangelism!
And the KK/Lu thing: I didn't mean to imply that the official explanation made ANY sense. I just repeated the official explanation. I gave up on Countdown a few issues in, and don't feel any need to defend it. The Lightning Saga is another matter, since it's important to the new book's backstory.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Do you have a reference and a quote for them having been snatched from the past? I don't have any issues of Countdown.
Of course, even with such a quote, it still makes no sense, because then they couldn't be killed off a second time.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added a line about Batman not recognizing Karate Kid in Countdown. Note: I don't have the issue myself so other people will need to confirm it.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added a reference to Saturn Queen, Echo, and Beauty Blaze being in Lo3W. This technically isn't something that happens offscreen, but it's sort of a special case.
I do need to know if and how we can be sure that those aren't alternate timeline versions, however. If they are, they don't count and Saturn Queen's first appearance is now, while we haven't seen the others at all.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
This is soooo helpful! Thank you!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Changed the paragraph about reboot and threeboot crossovers--Action #864 establishes that at least some of them happened.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Next edit: mentioning the inconsistency about whether Titanians come from Lanoth or Earth.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again: 1) Mentioning that Rond Vidar was revealed as a member in Legion of Three Worlds 2) Mentioning the Levitz interview in which he says that Legion of Three Worlds isn't in continuity.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
is Val meeting Robin in his Comic still continuity ?? as well as val traveling to the 20th century just more modern like in the 90s than the 70s? (though it would most likely be nightwing than one of the robin's)
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again for Adventure 516.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the Adventure #1 last page panels, and moved the Dev-Em reference. And I added the Adventure #516 retcons. Any retcons I missed?
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added now.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
But it's Levitz contradicting Levit in order to fit with the grand continuity of the DCU!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I already mentioned that. Though I didn't notice it was caused by Superboy time travelling on his own. Actually, if it was caused by Superboy time travelling on his own, then Paul had to retcon away Annual #2. Paul doesn't write Superman; he doesn't get to decide what powers Superboy has.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: But it's Levitz contradicting Levit in order to fit with the grand continuity of the DCU!
"Annnnnd in the red corner, we have Paul Levitz, grizzled veteran of a thousand campaigns, former CEO of DC comics, squaring off against the plucky newcomer in the blue corner, his younger self, the Paul Levitz of the 1980s!"
"FIGHT!"
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: As of Legion of Super-Heroes Annual #2 (vol. 2) the '6 Minute War' took place on Durla sometime durring the age of the ancient Greeks. As of Adventure Comics #516 the '6 Minute War' took place on NEW Durla sometime in the future. Also, the events of the story from LSH Annual #2 couldn't have happened as depicted any way since the group of Legionnaires stranded in the past in that story got there because of hitting a temporal wave caused by Superboy time-traveling on his own. The realy odd thing here is that both stories were written by Mr. Levitz so it is Levitz contradicting Levitz.
so what? It's not like that annual really mattered in the grand scheme of things.
I doubt he considers it one of his finest; it came off more like a throw-away idea.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent: It's not like that annual really mattered in the grand scheme of things.
First of all, the issue was full of little retcons/mistakes like that. Contradicting one obscure story isn't that big a deal; contradicting many obscure and not-so-obscure stories adds up to death by a thousand cuts.
Second, small retcons can add up over time too. If every story for the next couple of years only contradicted one obscure reference, Legion history would be nonsense by the time it was all over.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: You might want to add that the story from Adventure #516 also states that Brande hired a 'big deal xenologist' to design a form that would make Durlans seem 'safe' to others and yet allow them to use their powers quickly and easily.... and yet .... Their 'designer/defualt' form looks exactly like current day shape-shifting Durlans and the pre-war (presumably non-shape-shifting) Durlans from the bottled City.
Added...
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again to mention Dream Girl's connection to the Dreaming.
You know, as I think about it it seems more and more that the Johns run was full of stuff that we'd be better off without and that it only seems sensible because it was better than not having the original Legion at all.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion:
quote: Originally posted by Kent: so what? It's not like that annual really mattered in the grand scheme of things.
I doubt he considers it one of his finest; it came off more like a throw-away idea.
Throw-away idea? You mean like the very first appearance of the Legion of Super-Heroes was?
not quite. no one seems to have ever clamored for the return of the Durlan Greek gods. Or for any revisiting of that story at all.
Posted by Kent on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by Kent: It's not like that annual really mattered in the grand scheme of things.
First of all, the issue was full of little retcons/mistakes like that. Contradicting one obscure story isn't that big a deal; contradicting many obscure and not-so-obscure stories adds up to death by a thousand cuts.
Second, small retcons can add up over time too. If every story for the next couple of years only contradicted one obscure reference, Legion history would be nonsense by the time it was all over.
seems like almost every issue from the 1970s, actually. And Legion managed to get through that okay.
I look at comics lore like Arthurian lore: written by too many hands to be fully consistent, and the inconsistencies/flaws are part of the cannon. To me, it's better to appreciate the gist of the mythos than try to iron out the wrinkles.
but I've been the anal-continuity freak at various times (I mean that in fond nostalgia, not any dis), so I both respect and am amused by this project.
Posted by googoomuck on :
quote:Adventure #12 says that Superboy is from the 20th Century but the Legion is from the 31st. If the Legion takes place exactly 1000 years after Superboy's time, this can't be true. Probably a mistake.
IIRC Legion stories (Adventure to Volume 3 era) have always been 1000 years after date they were published give or take a month or two.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
When DC stated that this was the original Legion, I doubt very much that the statement was meant to include every detail from the silver age Earth One. Original Legion meant Bouncing Boy to Quislet.
When you look at the Flash, Green Lantern or Superman, all of these characters' backgrounds have been greatly changed since the silver age but they are still touted as the original silver-age heroes. The DCU has moved on and that movement has affected the Legion just like all the other characters. Large chunks of the changes to Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and the Superman family are down to the tinkering of Geoff Johns so we should expect the Legion to suffer similarly, just as the Legion suffered for John Byrne's changes to Superman in the 80s.
Try to imagine if there had been no 5YL, reboot or threeboot. Would the current tweaks have been acceptable twenty years ago. Are they any worse than the pocket universe Superboy for example?
Many of the changes are unnecessary and irritate the hell out of me but this is still the Legion of Mr & Mrs Ranzz, Mr & Mrs Taine, Tellus, Quislet and all the other little pieces that made me love the Legion all those years ago.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: When DC stated that this was the original Legion, I doubt very much that the statement was meant to include every detail from the silver age Earth One. Original Legion meant Bouncing Boy to Quislet.
When you look at the Flash, Green Lantern or Superman, all of these characters' backgrounds have been greatly changed since the silver age but they are still touted as the original silver-age heroes. The DCU has moved on and that movement has affected the Legion just like all the other characters. Large chunks of the changes to Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and the Superman family are down to the tinkering of Geoff Johns so we should expect the Legion to suffer similarly, just as the Legion suffered for John Byrne's changes to Superman in the 80s.
Try to imagine if there had been no 5YL, reboot or threeboot. Would the current tweaks have been acceptable twenty years ago. Are they any worse than the pocket universe Superboy for example?
Many of the changes are unnecessary and irritate the hell out of me but this is still the Legion of Mr & Mrs Ranzz, Mr & Mrs Taine, Tellus, Quislet and all the other little pieces that made me love the Legion all those years ago.
You worded that perfectly. I couldn't agree more!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: When DC stated that this was the original Legion, I doubt very much that the statement was meant to include every detail from the silver age Earth One. Original Legion meant Bouncing Boy to Quislet. ... Try to imagine if there had been no 5YL, reboot or threeboot. Would the current tweaks have been acceptable twenty years ago. Are they any worse than the pocket universe Superboy for example?
I think that the statement could be interpreted as "we're going to keep as much as reasonably possible". This does not mean that they have to keep Cosmic Boy's magnetic eyes, or every story where the Legion plays a prank on some 20th century person. But I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret that as "we're not doing a whole bunch of gratuitous retconning all at once".
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Part of the problem is that one person's obscure trivial plot point is another person's vital bit of classic Legion lore.
It does amuse me that people who complain about arbitrary deviations from old school Legion continuity are called "anal-continuity freaks" while the changes are almost always excused under the banner of "Well, the rest of the DCU has changed, so we've got to expect that the Legion will have to be altered to conform with every other comic DC is publishing at the moment."
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I just reread the first post to see how far we've gotten. Very good stuff, Ken!
Maybe by the 12 issue (end of Levitz first year) you could do a full-on summary of all inconsistencies, deleting all mistakes, fixes and unimportant things (like statues). There could be an annual update of that, and you can keep the first post of this thread going the way it is now so its kind of like the Master List.
Er, that is, if you don't mind me making more work for you.
I actually think we have a really firm handle on continuity at this point. Other than Countdown, which no one clearly intends on ever addressing, things aren't quite as messy as someone would think at first.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Not all of the list is about inconsistencies in the first place, like the Tornado Twins/XS stuff (which was from your original list), or the list of retcons.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
Oh, I know. I think you've done a great job!
I'm just curious about how much Paul can actually resolve in one year's time.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the 52 Devem and moved Dev-Em back to "up in the air".
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added explanation for the Superboy date error in Adventure Comics.
Is there any way we can pin the thread? Sooner or later I'm going to run out of changes to make.
Edit: also added Inferno and Sun Girl and changed the 5YL section to an other continuities section so Dr. Aven could be put there. And the Kyle Rayner reboot crossover.
[ August 08, 2010, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
hmmmm...wonders if Inferno is still in the 21st century...
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added:
Blok in Adventure #4
Element Lad scene from Adventure #1 was shown
Moved V6 inconsistencies into separate section from pre-V6 inconsistencies
Levitz's remarks on Ayla/Vi from SDCC interview
Anything else I missed from Adventure? (or were any of the other scenes at the end of Adventure #1 shown?)
[ August 11, 2010, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I think undoing the Lanoth thing is the first one of those.
At any rate, Adventure #517 has its own problems, so I've added it twice, once as un-retconning Superman: Secret Origin and once as adding retcons. I made a long post on the DC board complaining about retcons that supposedly don't change anything we actually saw. It's a shame that the list now has an "intentional retcon--during V6" section.
[ August 11, 2010, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
i wonder if the flight belt thing was an artist remembering what originally took place and got it drawn up and it was too late to change it back to rings post production...(no one wants their legion books to be late do they?) ...not that a mistake like that is acceptable but tolerable if it switches back.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: I don't think so. the Belts are also specifically mentioned oin the dialog... something like "he even bought you those ridiculously expensive flight belts".
yeah i know...but since he had them with flight rings b4 this...chronicles error.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Okay, I would like to know if you guys think these count enough to be added (both from Legion of Three Worlds #1):
1) Brande is killed, reverts to orange Durlan form when he dies (implying that the orange form is Durlans' natural form, which is something that's been on again, off again). 2) Brainiac 5 makes a point of saying that he alone created Mon-El's anti-lead serum. There seems little point in this statement unless it's meant to retcon away the story where Saturn Girl created the first, temporary, anti-lead serum. However, it doesn't explicitly contradict that since he could mean that he just created the final one.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: 1) Brande is killed, reverts to orange Durlan form when he dies (implying that the orange form is Durlans' natural form, which is something that's been on again, off again).
This, to me, is a quandary. As of pre-Crisis continuity, the purple-robed green-tentacle monsters are the 'true form.' As of Brande's tale of his past in the recent Adventure, the purple-robed, green-tentacle monsters are the true forms, and he explicitly *designed* the orange form, to set other sentients minds at ease (with the help of a marketing/PR firm). As of Invasion, Durlans could shapeshift in the early 20th century, and it was previously established that the war that gave them these abilities occured in the times when Democritus was first proposing the theory of the atom.
And yet, as of War of the Supermen, Durlans are orange-skinned humanoids, and were long before they could shapeshift (since War of the Supermen retcons the Durlan war from classical times to post-20th century).
Right now, based on past continuity and most recently re-established continuity (from Brande's story in Adventure), Brande assuming orange humanoid form and not tentacle-monster form in Lo3W is a mistake (as is War of the Supermen, in general).
Possible explanations that would make this *not* a mistake;
Everyone off of Durla expects a 'dead' Durlan to revert to orange humanoid form.
1) The mortally-wounded Brande chose to revert to orange humanoid form and somehow 'locked' it in that shape to maintain the pretense that this is the Durlan's true form (knowing that his pretense of being human would not survive medical examination of his corpse).
2) Brande isn't really dead. A hole in the body of a creature with no vital organs is, for the most part, annoying and painful, but rarely could lead to fatality. Brande had been considering going underground, and leaving this 'life' as R.J. Brande behind, and chose this convenient assassination attempt to fake being dead.
Cham knows this, which explains why he looked so surly and annoyed during the reading of his father's 'last will and testament.' It's a sham, and, regardless of his intentions, it feels to Cham like his father is running away again...
Why the Time Trapper, who demonstrates on Leland McCauley the ability to age someone to death, would send someone to *shoot* Brande, remains a mystery, like why the Joker would tie up an unconscious Batman and suspend him over a vat of acid instead of shoot him in the face before he wakes up...
quote: 2) Brainiac 5 makes a point of saying that he alone created Mon-El's anti-lead serum. There seems little point in this statement unless it's meant to retcon away the story where Saturn Girl created the first, temporary, anti-lead serum. However, it doesn't explicitly contradict that since he could mean that he just created the final one.
I suspect that any cool Legion invention that doesn't stem from Brainy (Mon-El's creation of the element that was later used to fashion the Flight Rings, Dreamy's use of Naltorian tech to change Ayla's powers so that she could remain a Legionnaire, and Imra's creation of the first anti-lead-poisoning serum) are going to be retconned into being all-Brainy, all-the-time.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Superboy/LSH #241 has a scene where Chameleon Boy is in disguise and hit by a ray that forces Durlans into their natural form. It's the orange form.
The explanation that Brande chose to revert to orange form doesn't work because Brande is stuck in human form (unless you also want to suggest that he was finally able to shift back when dying, or that he recovered his powers but hid them). Besides, it wasn't widely known that Brande is a Durlan until his death revealed it. If he was just going into hiding he wouldn't intentionally reveal that he's a Durlan.
Why the Trapper didn't age him? Maybe Durlans don't age.
And I'm pretty certain Dreamy's use of Naltorian science will stay, because that single reference is the reason why Dreamy is considered one of the smartest Legionnaires today.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Superboy/LSH #241 has a scene where Chameleon Boy is in disguise and hit by a ray that forces Durlans into their natural form. It's the orange form.
Ah, but this is, IIRC, before the green-tentacle form had been established as their 'true form' by Levitz (?) in the first place. It would be unreasonable to expect DC to recall the comics written before that date and 'correct' them.
quote: The explanation that Brande chose to revert to orange form doesn't work because Brande is stuck in human form
I may be talking out of my backside here, but I thought that he later regained his shapeshifting powers? (Not in the issue where Reep does, and then has the cool shapeshifting duel with the other Durlan, because I remember Brande refusing to do so there, but I could've sworn he later regained his powers...)
But yeah, if he had no shapeshifting powers, then his death shouldn't have caused him to change into anything other than a human corpse.
Perhaps the Time Trapper deliberately moved his body through time to cause it to resolve into a shape it had taken much, much earlier, to enhance the earth-as-xenophobes asspull?
Perhaps (no, definitely) we are putting way more thought into this poorly written scene than the writer did.
quote: Why the Trapper didn't age him? Maybe Durlans don't age. [/quopte]
That would make sense. L.E.G.I.O.N. established Brande to be at least 1000 years old.
It's not a retcon, 'though, because nobody ever said he *wasn't* 1000 years old!
Or 10,000 years old. Or the Martian Manhunter. Or a Lord of Order. Or the first Oan/Malthusan. Or Krono's lab partner, who said, 'dude, bad idea...' Or the living embodiment of The Source.
[quote] And I'm pretty certain Dreamy's use of Naltorian science will stay, because that single reference is the reason why Dreamy is considered one of the smartest Legionnaires today.
I'll give you that one, mainly because I don't expect Ayla's time as Light Lass to ever be mentioned again anyway.
But the popularity of Brainy seems likely to snatch away the creation of the Flight Rings and the anti-lead serum.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
LEGION didn't establish Brande to be 1000 years old, since he was pulled through time.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: LEGION didn't establish Brande to be 1000 years old, since he was pulled through time.
Shows what I know! I haven't read LEGION, although I'd heard that Brande was in it and that Tinya was a Carggite, and various other strange things.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
It was basically a V4 plot, although LEGION started a bit before V4. LEGION had a Durlan in it, and the Durlan was swapped for Phase. (They weren't swapped from exactly the same time periods.)
It was eventually revealed in V4 that the Durlan was Brande and it was strongly implied that Phase was Tinya (who disappeared in the future because of Glorith). Right at Zero Hour it was revealed that Phase was not Tinya, but Tinya's previously unseen sister Enya. Zero Hour then immediately wiped that away.
In the reboot, it was implied that Brande is the Martian Manhunter; the Durlan from LEGION no longer had an explanation. Phase was explained by saying that Tinya's dad was Carggian and that Phase is her second body, stolen at birth. She was merged back into Tinya. The reboot ended before anyone could explain what happened to the third body.
Since the reboot still existed in a separate timeline and its crossovers still existed, I assume that Phase's origin is still in continuity. I don't think anyone's ever tried to explain the Durlan again.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited to add the Durlan shape and break up the Adventure 516 section. I decided not to add the anti=lead seum part, since that could be interpreted so as not to retcon anything.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the spelling of Gates' homeworld.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the mission monitor board from #4--Lydda, Thom, Yera, and XS don't seem to be members any more.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
(editing mistake--accidentally replied to my message instead of editing it.)
Anyway, it's edited to add Supergirl #22, as well as that Nura change.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
It's never stated that Rond Vidar is a full fledged member in Legion of 3 Worlds is it? He's been an honorary member for ages. Couldn't he have just been operating in that capacity? The Legion still has its no powers dependent on devices/weapons policy doesn't it? That would preclude his being a full member.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited the Dev-Em entry.
Does anyone know where Sun Girl's real name was stated? (Wikipedia isn't all that reliable on these matters.) I mean issue and page.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Is there a reference from a comic book?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by jimgallagher: What is "the dreaming"?
"The Dreaming" is the realm of dreams from Neil Gaiman's Sandman series. It technically didn't originate with him (you may ignore Wikipedia on this), but I don't remember if the name was used before him, and at any rate he introduced just about everything we know about it.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Does anyone know if Saturn Girl was ever stated to have wiped Supergirl's memory in the original series to keep her from knowing about the future? This may be another obscure retroboot retcon.
(For that matter, does anyone know if this was said for Superboy? I thought it might be in V2 #259, but it's not. Saturn Girl only gives him a suggestion to stay in the 20th Century; it's already established that he'll forget it. The original post-hypnotic suggestion is given by Supergirl, not Saturn Girl.)
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Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
"Super-hypnosis" is normally a term used for Supergirl, not for Saturn Girl, so that would be consistent with the Adventure Comics version. (Which was issue 334, 333 for the letter column).
I think the idea in Adventure Comics was that they couldn't use Saturn Girl because Superboy was invulnerable. That's why in #350-351 they actually inserted a piece of Kryptonite into Superbpy's and Supergirl's brains to make them forget, rather than using Saturn Girl.
[ September 22, 2010, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Silver Age Kryptonians could officially only be hypnotized/mind-controlled by other Kryptonians or by exploiting one of their standard weaknesses (kryptonite, magic, etc.). This became somewhat looser in the Bronze Age.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Iam: Thanks for looking it up.
Many changes to the list:
Saturn Girl making Supergirl and Superboy forget the future are considered changes from the original series.
I just read Superman and the Legion, so added a mention that Batman is stated to remember JLA #147-148.
Hyphenation of Spider-Girl.
The idea that the Legion had flight rings when they recruited Superboy and didn't have permission to use the time bubble is now listed as from Action Comics, not Secret Origin.
The xenophobia on Earth is a retcon, but not in Action Comics (which describes it as a new phenomenon), only in Secret Origin (which has it take place when Superboy was inducted).
Mentioning new Emerald Empress from the annuual. Time will tell whether this actually explains the appearance of the Empress in L3W, but I suspect not.
Mention that DCU:Legacies seems to show pre-Crisis Kara.
Kara's flight ring in Lightning Saga. It was almost certainly not thought out to this extent, but...
Sun Girl's name is not from a comic book.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
Saturn Girl used her powers on Superboy in Legion of super-heroes 259, she also said it was a post-hyponotic command in 280 to keep him in his own century. Also in Legion of Super-Heroes 282 she removes the whole psycho-warrior incident from his memories.
The First she does it without his permission and every legionnaire knows she does and approves. The 2nd she does it with his permission and also every legionnaire approves.
quote: It is stated in this story that when Superboy himself returns to the 20th century, some years before Supergirl's time, he always forgets about her existence due to a post-hypnotic suggestion that she gave him. (This is a fact that is corrupted in post-Silver lore, which incorrectly attributes the post-hypnotic suggestion to Saturn Girl rather than Supergirl).
[ September 23, 2010, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Superboy-Supergirl ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: Saturn Girl used her powers on Superboy in Legion of super-heroes 259, she also said it was a post-hyponotic command in 280 to keep him in his own century. Also in Legion of Super-Heroes 282 she removes the whole psycho-warrior incident from his memories.
I'm not next to my comics right now, but in 259 she gives him a command to stay in his century--not to forget. It is already assumed that staying in his century would make him forget without her having to do anything more to cause that. 280 sounds like the same thing.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
but she did use her powers on him without his permission no?
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
i think the trust comes from he understood it was for the good/best intent to save him pain and ulitmately the intergrity of the timeline...after all he's "guilty" of the same thing sometimes with the legion like when Mr. Mxyzptlk killed them he never told them that they died. So They've all been guilty of hiding things from each other.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote: Does anyone know where Sun Girl's real name was stated? (Wikipedia isn't all that reliable on these matters.) I mean issue and page.
These are her apperances and i believe her name reveal is in her first appearance
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: These are her apperances and i believe her name reveal is in her first appearance
Do you have a page and panel?
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
no sorry i don't have the comic with me (at work)
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
It's in the Wizard article and in Wikipedia, so I already know it's been mentioned outside comic books, I just wanted to know if it was ever in a comic book. I guess that's answered now.
Posted by Tromium on :
Take it for what it's worth but in his Newsarama interview Levitz gives us a pretty good idea how many years have elapsed since we last saw "his Legion."
Quote: "I mean, I could have a handbook showing — I said it was 26 — so I could just say, "Here are the 26 and what I envision about the order in which they joined and the continuity of the last five years since the last time thing(s) went on. . But a little bit of decoding is fun."
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Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Minor updates for Legion of Three Worlds--basically non-retcon events that needed to be mentioned. Deaths of other Legions' members, name of Saturn Queen, Garth's body in the reboot. Also noticed that Sarya was named, which means that the Emerald Empress in L3W is not the new one.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
While we're at it, does anyone know what the deal is with the destruction of all the Green Lanterns in Legion of Three Worlds? It wasn't done by Superboy-Prime (who killed 55 in the 21st century, not the whole sert in the 31st) and the Legionnaires react as though it's a recent event.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the revelation that Daxamites live hundreds of years (Superman Secret Files 2009). Amazing how I keep finding this stuff.
Posted by future king on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, does anyone know what the deal is with the destruction of all the Green Lanterns in Legion of Three Worlds? It wasn't done by Superboy-Prime (who killed 55 in the 21st century, not the whole sert in the 31st) and the Legionnaires react as though it's a recent event.
This event hasn't happened yet in regular continuity. I think this was meant as a set-up for a future Geoff Johns GL project.
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
Rokk was talking about his mother in spirit. Just because she's dead that doesn't mean he doesn't feel that she can't forgive him. I know from experience that your relationship with your mother doesn't end when she dies. Since my mother's death, I have asked her to forgive me for things I've done both before and after she died.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
As EmeraldEmpress pointed out on another thread
If the Magic Wars happened...the Sorceress World was destroyed. Where are now Mysa and Blok?
Posted by Evolution Has Failed on :
Addressing only continuity issues with the most recent #6: 1) First of all, while I like jimgallagher's perfectly reasonable explanation for it, I have to say that for the comment from Cos about his mother, it feels like he (Paul Levitz) just forgot that she was dead. That issue was a loooong time ago.
Goes to show it's important for us readers to help PL out and give him feedback... if I am right, then once he realizes the error, I'm sure he won't exacerbate the problem further, and then jim's explanation can stand.... but if 5 issues later she actually showed up, well, then, forget it.
2) A big one I'm surprised no one else has mentioned: we have another Chemical manipulator from Phlon?!?... but as I recall, CKing's powers were unique to him (he was "a mutant"), not shared by everyone on his planet. Unless the new guy is somehow a descendant, the coincidence is hard to believe (...well, unless you explain that all Phlon-ians have a dormant "chemical manipulating" gene that is easily turned on by mutation, and/or that there is some reason the Phlon-ians are being selected for that trait, so it is a form of evolution.)
3) FINALLY, regarding the old Karate Kid continuity issue... I have to admit, I'm behind on some of my comic reading (i.e. I've only skimmed Countdown) and even more so on my remembering , but doesn't the 5-word phrase uttered in this issue by Jeckie, "pulled from some parallel world", constitute the explanation that has been missing for who the KK who died in Countdown (and I guess appeared in Lightning Saga) was? Still doesn't say WHICH parallel world...
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
Wow, scarey capital letters on DEAD and DEATH there. That must PROVE that you're RIGHT and I'm WRONG.
Pol would not have to forgive Rokk because Pol basically committed suicide and Rokk wasn't there to stop him anyway.
What's really happening is Rokk is punishing himself with survivor guilt, which makes him feel like he can't be forgiven.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
Man, you're stingier than Mrs. Krinn on the forgiveness.
Lighten up. This is a comic book. Save your venom for something more vemon-worthy.
Just as Rokk's mother's "voice" prevented him from murdering her killers, it is now making him feel responsible for his brother's death. Is that such a stretch?
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
What? He's got a conscience, honors his mother's memory, and feels responsible for his little brother and that makes him a nutjob?
Have you even met Cosmic Boy? Of COURSE he feels responsible. Of COURSE he blames himself. Of COURSE he feels guilty.
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
Why is that? Some people do believe in an afterlife you know. We've seen Ferro Lad's ghost and Lyle's ghost is off having an affair with that Myla ghost in that other dimension. Ultra Boy married Tinya's ghost in the reboot. There are other ghosts in the DCU, such as Deadman. Why can't Mrs. Krinn be one of them?
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Yes. Unless Levitz is going to start portraying Cos as a nutjob... which I supose he could be planning.
No, it isn't. My mother "talks" to her dead mother all the time. When I visit my grandmothers grave, I still "talk" to her. Sorry,but it just sounds like you don't like Paul Levitz. Thats fine. Its your right to like or dislike whomever you feel like. But I for one am glad that a writer such as Paul has come to the legion in order to lift them from the malais that has taken hold over the years. And given that over the last 20 years he has shepherded the entire DCU and not just one book, yeah, I do think its possible to forgive a few gaffs here and there and not dwell on them
Sorry, man, but you are starting to come across as a hater. This is a cool place. Leave the hate to the DC boards. Its okay to disagree or even dislike, but there are ways to state that without coming across as bitter or a zealot.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by jimgallagher on :
Thank you, Rickshaw!
So stop putting your money down, I am Legion. No one's forcing you to.
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Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: As EmeraldEmpress pointed out on another thread
If the Magic Wars happened...the Sorceress World was destroyed. Where are now Mysa and Blok?
Seems as if "Sorcerer's World" is a title given to whichever (or "witchever") planet the Mystic Council (?) deems seat of power for the magical community.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I wonder where Sorcerer's World is now?
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion:
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: [No, it isn't. My mother "talks" to her dead mother all the time. When I visit my grandmothers grave, I still "talk" to her. Sorry,but it just sounds like you don't like Paul Levitz. Thats fine. Its your right to like or dislike whomever you feel like. But I for one am glad that a writer such as Paul has come to the legion in order to lift them from the malais that has taken hold over the years. And given that over the last 20 years he has shepherded the entire DCU and not just one book, yeah, I do think its possible to forgive a few gaffs here and there and not dwell on them
Sorry, man, but you are starting to come across as a hater. This is a cool place. Leave the hate to the DC boards. Its okay to disagree or even dislike, but there are ways to state that without coming across as bitter or a zealot.
See my post above and then continue here.... I don't hate Mr. Levitz. I don't Love Mr. Levitz. I don't Like or Dislike Mr. Levitz. I do not know Mr. Levitz and could care less what kind of person he is or isn't (had this dicussion before and am really tired of it so I hope this ends any confussion on where I stand). I am only interested in the writing and if I think it is bad (or even just mediochre) I will say so. If I use the writer's name, it is only because it has been publicized enough that I happen know it. If I mention any facts/rummors about the writer, again it is only because so many other people have been talking about it that the name stuck. In a few instances when there were contradictions, I pulled out the older book to see if it was the same writer. Contradicting another writer is one thing, contradicting yourself is another and in my oppinion much worse because I do think that no matter how many different books you work with you should have a basic knowledge of the history of any given book you are currently working on and should take the time to check your 'facts' if you are not 100% sure of them. As for the DC boards and 'haters', the biggest Haters there are the Mods and DC themselves. I called them on their practice of routinely deleting any post that had 'Gay' in it reguardless of the content of the posts. Not only was I banned and my IP blocked, but the IP's of 2 relatives that I had posted from once each previous to my banning were also blocked and their accounts banned. even my work IP has been blocked. So please do not talk to me about 'Haters' when you haven't the slightest experience of what a real 'hater' is.
[b] Well kid, its like this. I've been around a long time. And I've watched the (I'll be generous here) passionate like you come and go. You are absolutely right in your convictions... in your mind. Everyone else is wrong and you are the lone gunman that has the courage to stand up to black bart when the town chickens out.
And thats juvenile.
Ya see, part of being a society, a group, is not following the herd mentality, but being adult enough to say what needs to be said in a constructive manner, showing respect to those that have earned it, and realizing that others just aren't as perfect as you are and that they make mistakes.
You think Levitz is the first to make a mistake, even one based on something he has written in the past? Sorry, 'taint. Even the greatest of literary writers, the holy Wiggle Stick With A Pointed End himself had mistakes. And sometimes, things just change and adapt as time goes on. Piers Anthony wrote the Xanth books, I loved them as a teenager and on into my young adult years. And yet, after twenty some books, mistakes crept in. Marvel had their infamous "No Prize".
And lemme tell ya, I've been involved in battle on the DC boards that make you little banning seem like a gnat fart in a hurricane. Go ask about the name rickshaw1 on the firestorm boards.
So, maybe, just maybe, I might have some knowledge of that on which I speak.
I will say this, in the past, people that have followed the path you are heading down here became highly dissatisfied with their experience here, and made it a place where others weren't happy as well. It did not end nicely at the end of that path. There are ways to make a point nicely, and then there are ways to make a point that leave a bad taste in people's mouths. As one of the few conservatives here, I spark things off on occasion, but I always try to remember that this isn't just a place I visit, It's a place I call cyberhome. And I try not to crap on my sofa, dig?
No one is saying for you to shut up. They are saying you are becoming offensive and nasty in some places, and need to pull your horns in enough to make your point without the nastyness.
Now, you can be offended at this and reply nasty, or leave in a huff, or a myriad of other options that are unpleasant, or you can take a day, think about things and realize, no one here has said shut up. They have asked for a bit more civility towards not only the creators that come here, but in a reflected manner, to the people that visit here.
Your choice, but just remember, you don't control who posts here, the mods do. This ain't my forum, but by now I would have asked you to show a little more respect. If not...
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: You think Levitz is the first to make a mistake, even one based on something he has written in the past?
I just don't get it. Do you think Levitz made a mistake or not?
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again. Mostly for Supergirl Annual #2, also mentioned that the Legion vote shows a membership slightly different from #4 (Chameleon Girl in, Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad out).
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I haven't read the story yet, but if they are saying the KK in Countdown was a duplicate from a parrellel world, I wonder if it's possible the KK in Countdown was the KK from the threeboot as he was pulled away in some mysterious fashion (with Luornu) and never seen again.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
For that matter, that could also explain Luornu's sudden power upgrade...
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Noticed that you didn't update the Karate Kid returns from the dead section to mention that while Karate Kid credited the 'founders' with his resurection (durring 'Countdown to Final Crisis'), Jeckie seemed unsure as to how it was accomplished and speculated that the universe itself was responsible or that he might have been a duplicate pulled from a parralel world (Legion vol 6 #6).
I don't have Countdown. Do you have quotes and issue numbers?
Posted by Iam Legion on :
I don't remember the issue number or the exact quote. It was a scene between Val and Lu. If someone else remembers that would be great because I disliked 'Countdown' immensely and probably won't go to the trouble of reading through it again just to find that one scene.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I somewhat added Karate Kid (also combining the two places he was mentioned) and the order of Superboy/Supergirl question.
I suspect the list is in its more or less final state after Supergirl Annual 2, barring another Supergirl story.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
A few minor tweaks in the past weeks, including more stuff for Supergirl Annual 2, and its statement that Superboy and Supergirl can't be present at the same time (unretconned in Adventure 520).
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edited again: 1) Mention that Myg has an apprentice 2) Do not describe Validus plot as in progress 3) Mention dangling plot about Mekt's twin.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I put in the anti-lead serum--I was reluctant to add it because some people thought it only meant he was taking credit for the final one. I don't get the Cancellite reference--#8 did mention "Brainy's old Cancellite formula", but Brainiac 5 obviously had *a* Cancellite formula--this could also just mean he created the final one.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
While we're at it, how do you spell "Cancellite"? It had one L in Adventure #326 and two L's in LSH #8, but I don't know if this is a new change or if the two L's spelling had become established sometime in the past.
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Unless there's a scene where Tellus mentions that he's going to walk somewhere, that's an art-only problem and I'm not putting it in, same as Dream Girl's hair color (or Gym'll's arm).
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Someone on the DC boards pointed out that Takron-Galtos was destroyed in Crisis. It turns out it was shown in Legion of Three Worlds, so it's actually a L3W retcon, not a V6 retcon, and I mentioned it as such.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Wasn't there a Takron-Galtos II at some point? 5YL perhaps?
Posted by Crymsun Kid on :
I remember that too, EDE. I believe it was 5YL.
Posted by Tom Tanner on :
Apparently, while we were not looking, the Omen and the Prophet storyline just happened off-panel, as this was the occasion on which Blok got his nose blown off.
Or maybe Omen and the Prophet never happened (which would be a blessing) or happened differently, and Blok lost his nose somewhere on Sorcerer's world.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
The nose changed in Omen and the Prophet but it wasn't blown off, it was just an art style change and as such doesn't count. Going from that Adventure #4 form back to stone is technically a dangling plot or a retcon, but I doubt it'll be addressed with any more than a throwaway line.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
That is using very odd terminology for the series. Most people would treat those as series 2, 3, and 4, not series 1, 2, and 3.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Volume 1 was the four issue reprint series from the 1970's.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
One of the idiosyncracies of the Help File is the cmk ignores what is usually labeled as "V1", thus resulting in the numbering confusion.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added #9 reference to Brande's speech pattern being a new thing. Also the continuing misspelling of Vyrga.
Also added the appearances of Kent Shakespeare and Elna from Superman/Batman #80.
Should I add in the "Brande is Chameleon Boy's mother" question? Although given weird Durlan egg-whatever terminology you can interpret it to mean anything, it read to me like #9 was backing off from that.
[ January 21, 2011, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
Isn't Brande depicted using the wierd 'new' speach pattern in recent issues of Adventure Comics as well? Such as Adventure Comics #516 which depicts the begining of the Legion (yet again)? This would mean that the current statement by Tyroc that it was a recent affectation he started 'a couple of years ago' contradicts the flashback scenes that contradict the original history.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
in that legion of subsititute heroes preview...chuck surrounded by Lu's...he has to be the luckiest Legionnaire evvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver LOL.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added from the annual: -- Ayla and Violet -- Sarya is still dead -- Misspelling of Gates' homeworld is fixed -- Orando is back in our dimension -- And a separate section for the board game, since it's so bad for continuity.
[ February 02, 2011, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Dave Hackett on :
Obviously the board game did two things: 1) Lay out a basic timeline and 2) give a wink and a nod to the messy minutia of this new 'Boot (while giving Heart attacks to poor Ken).
I think it's fair to say, with Supergirl's entire induction redone as of the Annual, that Superboy definitively came first now.
You can safely ignore "Suberboy" as inspiration instead of Superman as the exploits of the teen of Steel are now secret.
The Brainy Lab thing's been a running joke across several iterations. It was there for a chuckle and I'm not concerned about it.
I think it meant that Yera was *discovered* after GDS (which is true), also note the space sends you back to warn Gim, to a time frame before/during the GDS, which would be the proper timeframe.
Death of Superboy/Conspiracy obviously still happened some way or another. Any number of theories fit here, but this is explicit recognition of the events not being wiped away completely.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Well, I think it still counts as the original Legion returned. I did list the mistakes in the board game, but I don't seriously think they're anything other than mistakes. The only real retcon in the board game is Death of Superboy/Conspiracy, and that retcon restores things which happened to the original Legion.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
"Sorry, No. This is the 'New Earth' version of the Legion."
Which is in fact the same Legion shown after Crisis.
"The Original Legion was from Silver Age Earth 1 and that Earth nolonger exists. "
No silly, that was retconned to be a Pocket Universe, all the while Legion was existing on ( New ) Earth. Unless you mean the SW6 Legion, they might have been from Earth-1
"And, instead of trying to make it closer to the Original, they intentionally make it more and more different"
I like how THEY make fun of themselves in making a up a silly brd game outlining the important stories from the Legion's past, although it was very frustrating trying to find a 6 sided dice and having to restart every once in awhile. It kept giving me sense of De Ja vu... One of the things that bugged me was how they expected me to take them serious about Shrinking Violet, for example, she was kidnapped BEFORE The Great Darkness Saga yet the story took place revealing it almost a year later..WTF!?
"The entire 'Conspiracy' storyline happened after the first major retcon to LSH history (the 'Pocket Universe' storyline). So, No it did not happen to the Original Legion and is not a restoration of the Original Legion's history."
Back then it was called a RETCON. Plain and simple. Retcons werent sweeping changes creating "new versions" they were changes revealed to have been in place all along.
"Hi I'm Superman, I'm pretty popular. I've been around for such a long time and it seems every couple of months I remember things I never told you before... like for instance it just occured to me after being around for 10 years that I was also known as Superboy...and I had all these adventures before I became Superman!" --Superman, 1949, 10 years after his first appearance. Poor kid would never had made it if the internet was around back then. Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Just about any title has a certain level of retconning and rewriting. We don't say that the 1960's Legion isn't the "original Legion" because Cosmic Boy doesn't have magnetic eyes. We don't say that the Legion with Star Boy having gravity powers isn't the "original Legion" because he started out with different powers and changed them with no explanation (until decades later).
It doesn't make any sense to say that in order for it to count as the original version there must be no changes.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Umm, this version does indeed have Brainy mourning Supergirl's death. We're seeing Supergirl earlier in her timeline, but in the Legion's timeline she's died, as far as they know.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion:
quote:"Sorry, No. This is the 'New Earth' version of the Legion."
Which is in fact the same Legion shown after Crisis.
Not really. The post-CoIE Legion still had Laurel Kent as an academy member. Still Had Dev-Em as an occasional Aly. And still had Brainy mourning Supergirl's death in CoIE even though her origin (much like Power Girl and Donna Troy's) nolonger existed. This version has none of those and the current version of Supergirl didn't even exist until well after CoIE.
Well, it's all in how you see it. Superboy was from another Universe, there is nothing stating that Dev-Em isnt from THAT Universe's Krypton. Also, The Time Trapper was stopping the effects of Crisis in the future causing the Legion to still be aware of what occurred AND giving Brainy the time to mourn Supergirl. It wasnt until Cosmic Boy went in to the past during Legends that the Legion realized Time Trappers plan or that they have been traveling to an alternate Earth. Laurel Kent could have been still around, although she died being a Manhunter IF that series was a super success there may be reason to reference her again and in doing so we could find out who she descended from.
Imagine if Levitz had been allowed to make Sensor Girl , Supergirl like he had intended?
Considering that no one knew for so long who joined first, Supergirl or Superboy...I think it fun that despite what "really" happened the book still goes on and the Pocket Universe and it's ramifications will just have to be another conundrum that is part of Legion History. It gives a nod to the Legion's roots while allowing for whatever Post Infinite Madness is going on in the mainstream DCU. 9 issues and 1 Annual and Levitz seems to be carving out AGAIN his own part of the DCU.
quote: It is it's own version based (rather loosely at times) on the original with elements from other versions thrown in.
We don't know that yet.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: [QB] Imperical evidence. The Original is gone. The current version tends to give a lot of nods to the Original, but has tossed in a couple of things like the throw-away refference to Dragonmage in Lo3W.
Any "nods" towards a character is intended for the reader and is not evidence that you are dealing with a "new" version of those characters whom have no notion of the "nod" with in the context of the story.
quote: As for Dev-Em being from the PU Krypton... It could have gone that way.
Still could, heck, considering all the Kryptonians runing around on the NEW DCU, all of the old Dev-Em stuff CAN be BACK in continuity.
quote: But it wasn't. The only other surrvivors from the PU Krypton were Krypto (depowered and likely dead when..) and the Phantom Zone criminals that destroyed all life on the PU Earth
Dev-Em went in to the Legion's future LONG before Superboy died.
The more I think about it the more I believe that this is the same Legion after the Magic War's and before the 5YL. And the more Levitz writes it as such the more it will be. Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: and with that I'll let it go and just agree to disagree. Many see it as the Original, but I do not. I didn't see the Earth 2 Superman or Batman as the originals either, just really close copies.
That's all good!
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Edied for Blok's appearance and Glorith, as well as shortening the board game section.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added misspelling of Vyrga (again). Anything else I need to add?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Should I add Paul's statement on Facebook that Mon-El and Shadow Lass are divorced?
This would seem to have big implications for continuity while being in no comic at all (except for the out-of-continuity board game).
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
The problem in this case is that Facebook is also the only place he says that the board game is out of continuity. If I ignore his statement on Facebook about the divorce, I'll also have to ignore that, which would make things worse--not only does the board game mention the divorce, it mentions a bunch of other things that are problems.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
In Adventure #5, is a story with Superboy-Prime. His girlfriend is apparently back to life and there is a ring on her hand which is obviously supposed to be a white lantern, black lantern, or something. Has this ever been followed up on?
Posted by the Hermit on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: In Adventure #5, is a story with Superboy-Prime. His girlfriend is apparently back to life and there is a ring on her hand which is obviously supposed to be a white lantern, black lantern, or something. Has this ever been followed up on?
SSSSSH!!!!!!
I think we were all hoping that DC had forgotten about S-Prime, at least for a good long while.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Tom Tanner on :
See, there is the problem with the concept of the existence of Superboy-Prime.
Supposedly, Earth-Prime is as similar to the world in which you and I live as it is possible to get.
Recently, we have had the tsunami in Japan, and the resulting nuclear mess.
In the past couple of years, we have had the Gulf oil spill, the iceland volcano, floods in the eastern U.S., Russia, and Pakistan.
These are disasters custom-made for a "Superboy", and presumably they are happening on Earth-Prime as well. But if Superboy-Prime does get involved in these disasters, Earth-Prime quickly diverges from "our" reality.
Too, this Superboy-Prime would probably want to end the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya by murdering the respective populations of those countries.
But in order for Earth-Prime to remain Earth-Prime, Superboy-Prime must essentially do nothing.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: The problem in this case is that Facebook is also the only place he says that the board game is out of continuity. If I ignore his statement on Facebook about the divorce, I'll also have to ignore that, which would make things worse--not only does the board game mention the divorce, it mentions a bunch of other things that are problems.
I wonder what Talokians have to cut off to get a divorce...?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Actually, Superboy-Prime doesn't have powers on Earth-Prime. He only got powers in Crisis, when he left, and he lost them when he came back (Legion of Three Worlds). So you don't need to worry about why he doesn't stop disasters.
One thing that is a factor, however, is comic book time. All mainstream comic book stories happened in a relatively short time frame. They couldn't have happened when they were published because the characters would be far too old. And as time passes, the dates when they happened get pushed forwards.
And part of L3W and Adventure #5 depend on the comic books being published after Prime does the things depicted in them. Because of comic book time, the events are pushed forwards, so the comics were now published *before* the events. This ruins the stories or at least raises questions like, why didn't he read them first.
Oh, and I did add Paul's comment about the divorce to the list.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
This must be a very daunting task. It seems the more you slic n dice away the continuity the more and more you have to slice away for ANYTHING to still work
Even if you take out "Conspiracy" you still leave in Mon-el's alleged death, but it wasn't shown that he died until the 5 year gap. Nothing on panel supports a PRE gap death.
Yet the Time Trapper references the Pocket Universe in Action Comics and Conpiracy is visually referenced in LO3W but that isn't considered a continuity faux paux ?
Methinks that maybe we still aren't sure what is and what isn't a "mistake"
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Nothing on panel supports a PRE gap death.
The material on-panel supports his heart stopping with everyone reacting to it as though he is dead. We may not have seen a death certificate, but this pretty soundly establishes that he is as dead as anyone can be in comics.
quote: Yet the Time Trapper references the Pocket Universe in Action Comics and Conpiracy is visually referenced in LO3W but that isn't considered a continuity faux paux ?
Paul said that not all of Legion of Three Worlds is canon. He seems to be treating some of it as if it is anyway, but there have been things such as the appearance of the original Emerald Empress and Validus which he is not.
It's also plausible that the Time Trapper can reference retconned-away events.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Nothing on panel supports a PRE gap death.
The material on-panel supports his heart stopping with everyone reacting to it as though he is dead. We may not have seen a death certificate, but this pretty soundly establishes that he is as dead as anyone can be in comics.
Point being that is subjective. Without any 5 Year Gap knowledge we are kept with dangling plot line. A cliff hanger. Drama over a flatline. But not solid death. It would seem inaccurate to call it dead, Jim. Especially Since Next we see Mon-El is alive. Not criticism at all, just for conversations sake it wouldn't be accurate to utilize 5 Year Gap revelations to disavow current continuity.
quote: Yet the Time Trapper references the Pocket Universe in Action Comics and Conpiracy is visually referenced in LO3W but that isn't considered a continuity faux paux ?
Paul said that not all of Legion of Three Worlds is canon. He seems to be treating some of it as if it is anyway, but there have been things such as the appearance of the original Emerald Empress and Validus which he is not.
It's also plausible that the Time Trapper can reference retconned-away events. [/ Yet again all readers have to go buy is printed word. And in the case of the Pocket Universe and Time Trapper's machinations to remove Superboy from history there is published reference substantiating it's existence. A footnote from interviews and artist intent doesn't add relevance one way or the other. Especially since Paul was talking about LO3W and not Action Comics 864. Seems you may be on a quest to dismiss Pocket Universe from existence and in this huge compilation of info you are ignoring or dismissing modern reference to it.
[ April 27, 2011, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
"It's also plausible that the Time Trapper can reference retconned-away events."
It seems that would be the nature of his power. Yet by mere mention of it creates knowledge of his power and the events that took place. How or if they have any effect on present Legion time is something that hasnt been revealed to us. However in this case there is more reference to it actually taking place then of any retcon. I think the same sort of thinking here applies to the notion that Anti-Lad helped Superboy join the Legion in the first place.
Could he have been an unknown pawn of the Time Trapper?
Posted by Emily Sivana on :
One of my favorite super-villains of all time, Per Degaton, is also a time-traveler. He is aware of events that happened Pre-Crisis of Infinite Earths. I have read it explained nicely that all futures of Per Degaton are like petals on a flower, whereas the normal timeline is a stem. It might even be safe to say that the future is predetermined, based on the Einsteinian principle that time is simultaneous (you can learn more than philosophy from reading Watchmen). In the DCU this is compounded by the fact that amateur time-travelers like the Legion of Super-Heroes don't routinely mess up the timeline.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Point being that is subjective. Without any 5 Year Gap knowledge we are kept with dangling plot line. A cliff hanger. Drama over a flatline. But not solid death. It would seem inaccurate to call it dead, Jim. E
You have set your standards so high that it becomes impossible to call anything in comics a death. I can come up with a scenario for any death where the character isn't really dead and the event that seems to kill the character really doesn't.
If his heart stops and everyone acts as though that means he's dead, he's dead. The death can later be retconned away, but the mere possibility that it will be doesn't mean it isn't a death.
Posted by Set on :
Thanks to quantum uncertainty gobbledigook and the observer effect, I'm coming to appreciate the idea that 'time' is a series of bubbles of perceived reality, more or less floating in the same bathtub. If somebody over there in the 21st century bubble changes something, that's gonna affect their bubble, maybe, for awhile, but have no bearing at all on my 31st century bubble, where I still remember the 'original' past just fine.
Superboy existed. Then he didn't exist and was mandated to have never existed, and the Legion went to hell for awhile. Now he exists again, and was a Legionnaire, to boot.
If the Time Trapper is the excuse for why 21st century 'events' (that are gonna be retconned out of existence 1d10 years from now anyway) aren't even remotely relevant to the 31st century Legion, then I'm good with that.
Go, Time Trapper!
Really, the basic 'rule' of time travel is that if a time traveller *can* change the past, and time travel could ever actually occur, then, logically, at some point in the future, it *is* going to occur, and the past has already been messed up an infinite amount of times anyway by time travellers from the future, so, relax, the mere possibility that it *could* be broken, means that it already *has* been broken, more times than you can conceive of.
It's horribly circular and incestuous and pretty much irrelevancies itself in a puff of logic.
There's really no middle ground. Either time travel can't happen, or it can happen, but nothing can be changed, or the universe has already been changed a zillion times by time travellers from the far, far, future, and any attempt at unravelling the damage and figuring out what 'really happened' or what was 'supposed' to happen is pretty much a Sisyphean task.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Point being that is subjective. Without any 5 Year Gap knowledge we are kept with dangling plot line. A cliff hanger. Drama over a flatline. But not solid death. It would seem inaccurate to call it dead, Jim. E
You have set your standards so high that it becomes impossible to call anything in comics a death. I can come up with a scenario for any death where the character isn't really dead and the event that seems to kill the character really doesn't.
If his heart stops and everyone acts as though that means he's dead, he's dead. The death can later be retconned away, but the mere possibility that it will be doesn't mean it isn't a death.
not trying to set high standards, actually im trying to simplify things to work through many years of belief based on what Giffen set up in the 5YG. All we saw was a flat line and Shady crying. No response from any other member, nothing.. Based on that alone and the picking up after Magic Wars there was no way of knowing if Mon-El truly had died.
[ April 27, 2011, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Based on that alone and the picking up after Magic Wars there was no way of knowing if Mon-El truly had died.
There's no way of knowing whether *any* character, *ever* in comics has truly died.
If your standard for death is that it's not death if there's no way to know, then you're being unreasonable, because there's never a way to know.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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[ May 07, 2011, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by the Hermit on :
Hold on, here. Let's stop and think about this a minute.
The whole "death of Mon-El" thing was a result of the Conspiracy.
The Conspiracy was a reaction to the death of Superboy, a character the Legionnaires shared literally hundreds of adventures with.
Now here's where current continuity comes in:
Superboy didn't die. He's now called Superman.
Thus, the Conspiracy never happened.
Thus, Mon-El didn't die.
How else can you possibly interpret it??
Posted by Emily Sivana on :
IAm Legion: That TV show's theories are rooted in physics. According the Newton's axioms (I just attended a lecture on Newton's Principia) matter is continuously in motion. That means everything in the universe moves; Einstein debunked Newton's concept of real space where nothing is moving. Einstein developed quantum mechanics, which is where we get theories such as parallel universes.
Posted by Tom Tanner on :
Superboy-Prime gets his powers back in Adventure Comics #4, and attacks DC Comics on Earth-Prime.
However, the writers have promised to leave him alone.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Based on that alone and the picking up after Magic Wars there was no way of knowing if Mon-El truly had died.
There's no way of knowing whether *any* character, *ever* in comics has ever died.
Sure , generally speaking. But specifically in the case of Mon-El, his death in the pages of Legion of Super Heroes was not shown on panel nor was any reaction of that death shown by any other character in the book. His death, or the cliffhanger moment of his flatline that was caused by a power failure, was continued in the NOW out of continuity 5 Year Later series. *If* one chooses to cherry pick that little bit of "non" continuity as continuity then surely you can not ignore the fact that the Time Trapper was hiding out inside Mon-El's body ...which , by those standards Mon-El could very well still be. But his death was shown in the 5 Year Gap. Which is not in continuity. Let's not confuse facts with emotional attatchment especially in the daunting task of cataloging continuity errors. Nothing printed ever has diminished the existence of the Pocket Universe. If so please...anyone point me to an issue number.
[ April 28, 2011, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by the Hermit: Hold on, here. Let's stop and think about this a minute.
The whole "death of Mon-El" thing was a result of the Conspiracy.
The Conspiracy was a reaction to the death of Superboy, a character the Legionnaires shared literally hundreds of adventures with.
Now here's where current continuity comes in:
Superboy didn't die. He's now called Superman.
Thus, the Conspiracy never happened.
Thus, Mon-El didn't die.
How else can you possibly interpret it??
Current Superman met Superboy from the Pocket Universe Current Superman after Infinte Crisis remembered that he too knew the Legion as a teen and shared adventures with them. Were these the same adventures? Did the parralell exisitence of both Superboy and Superman merge as those slices of time possibly merged after Infinite Crisis? I'm sure these are the many anomalies and paradoxes Brainy contemplates as he looks back in time from the Time Institute . But one thing that won't change for us readers is that the deeper he looks in the more the REAL story will present itself from a 31st century perspective. A perspective that exists where Time Travel and time machines are "common" place. A place where cousins who don't know eachother in their own time can battle side by side with the Legion. Seems the Rocky Horror Picture Show was right, "Time is fleeting Madness" indeed.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: his death in the pages of Legion of Super Heroes was not shown on panel
By that reasoning, no death is "shown on panel". It's true that the flatline could be something other than a death. It's also true that any of the other things which are normally taken to mean death could be something other than a death. A flatline is no different from being decapitated or disintegrated or anything else--<i>any</i> of them look like death but could be explained by something else.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: his death in the pages of Legion of Super Heroes was not shown on panel
By that reasoning, no death is "shown on panel". It's true that the flatline could be something other than a death. It's also true that any of the other things which are normally taken to mean death could be something other than a death. A flatline is no different from being decapitated or disintegrated or anything else--<i>any</i> of them look like death but could be explained by something else.
Come on Ken, you really are gonna old school cut n paste out of context and reply to a general term that has nothing to do with the specifics that were presented? I feel like im trying to buy a used car. And you are the self appointed chronicler of continuity? All u have to do is read the book. Unless all you are saying is that there are huge holes in the notion that *Mon-El* died pre 5YG, so much so that one has to go all abstract in their thinking to determine if he is dead or not. Guess the truth might lie in the context....
Posted by the Hermit on :
I think what's ultimately important here is the personal timeline of a character, in this case Mon-El. It's pretty obvious that the guy who is now Legion leader and Green Lantern did not die (I would think he would remember a thing like that).
Thus, as far as the characters we are currently reading the adventures of are concerned, the Conspiracy, death of Superboy and the Cosmic Boy miniseries (in which he met a Superman that treated him like a new kid in town) never happened.
Any other way of looking at it seems to me to be nothing more than an intellectual exercise with no bearing on current continuity.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
[ April 29, 2011, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by the Hermit: I think what's ultimately important here is the personal timeline of a character, in this case Mon-El. It's pretty obvious that the guy who is now Legion leader and Green Lantern did not die (I would think he would remember a thing like that).
Thus, as far as the characters we are currently reading the adventures of are concerned, the Conspiracy, death of Superboy and the Cosmic Boy miniseries (in which he met a Superman that treated him like a new kid in town) never happened.
Any other way of looking at it seems to me to be nothing more than an intellectual exercise with no bearing on current continuity.
Excellent way of putting it and isn't that precisely what is happening here? None of this has a true bearing on continuity and arent we are all just "mentally exercising"?
But I was referring to the Superman/Superboy/Legion story that happened just before the Pocket Universe...even though the Cosmic Boy mini is just another good example of efforts made at that time to create a "context" within to make these concerns valid in their context....or continuity. Where is the point of reference for the context of continuity...modern continuity being made? Is there some popular mindset that determines wha tis "important", one that I didn't get the letter on for certain. I know for example that the Magic Wars at the time of publication was a slow and agonizing read....and absolutely recall what a shame it was that Mon-El's death was downplayed so much. It was obvious that it was set up for the next series based on that and low and behold on rereading the series it all makes sense. Somehow me, the reader sees the bigger picture being painted over the smaller strokes a month at a time. Fast forward 20 plus years and its hard to conceive the book will read as a direct continuation from Legion 63, but given the context of modern continuity and using published reference as a guide , that would be the only way to accept things now. The mental exercise comes in on where to disconnect what I thought I knew, like Garth is really Proty( which is true in the same continuity as Mon-el dying) , over what I will know all over again due to the fact that these stories trump the 5year gap adventures. Knowing that why would I cherry pick with CERTAINTY what did happen or what didn't? It isn't an " error" if Mon-el isn't dead nor is it if Conspiracy still happened because nothing published changes those stories. You can guess that they no longer happened but what makes you certain?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: The mental exercise comes in on where to disconnect what I thought I knew, like Garth is really Proty( which is true in the same continuity as Mon-el dying) , over what I will know all over again due to the fact that these stories trump the 5year gap adventures.
There are plenty of things which are true both during 5YL and prior to it. Proty/Garth isn't one. Mon-El dying is. You are taking a scene which is obviously supposed to mean that Mon-El is dead and reading it as him not being dead, on very flimsy grounds that if taken seriously would negate pretty much any death whatsoever.
If you can say "we didn't see a death, we just saw a flatline", someone else can say "we didn't see a death, we just saw someone being disintegrated" or "we didn't see a death, we just saw a bullet through their head followed by a funeral". If Mon-El's death isn't a death because we just saw a flatline, then there are no deaths.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
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Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Yeah, there could have been two Superboys. But it raises the question of how far you should go just to say that something is still in continuity. After all, you can explain away almost anything if you try enough; it's just a question of how much you want to make up.
Except for Paul's remark on Facebook about the marriage, all signs are that Superboy's death and Conspiracy have been retconned away and are out of continuity. Yes, you can interpret it otherwise, but you end up making straightforward stories into ones that are not, you end up assuming that important information has been withheld from the reader or is behind the scenes, and you have to assume that characters who might occasionally speak of it somehow never do.
We all know that retconning is bad for the long run. But refusing to admit that retconning happened can be too. The convoluted reasoning you need to do to say that this was not retconned makes Legion history make less sense, in the same way that retcons themselves make history make less sense.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Not saying that the PU storyline is still in-continuity... or even that it should be. Just saying that until DC or one of it's employees definatively states otherwise, it MAY be. So it is still in the 'unanswered' category until a writer chooses to deal with it one way or the other.
It "may" have happened, but everything we've seen so far (except for Paul's comment about the divorce) points to it not having happened. What we've seen requires *far* less twisting and reinterpretation to fit with "it didn't happen" than to fit with "it happened". They're not equal possibilities.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Not saying that the PU storyline is still in-continuity... or even that it should be. Just saying that until DC or one of it's employees definatively states otherwise, it MAY be. So it is still in the 'unanswered' category until a writer chooses to deal with it one way or the other.
It "may" have happened, but everything we've seen so far (except for Paul's comment about the divorce) points to it not having happened. What we've seen requires *far* less twisting and reinterpretation to fit with "it didn't happen" than to fit with "it happened". They're not equal possibilities.
What we've seen being actual flashbacks to those members involved floating on rocks during their fight with the Time Trapper along him stating such during Action Comics.
Published work being canon cherry picking or not. Sometimes you have to wonder how far some will go to twist what "didn't" happen. I'll take actual printed work over theories any day .
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I'm not sure which Action Comics issues you're referring to (I really would appreciate issue numbers, since they should go in the list), but if these were Johns-era comics (which I assume they are), Johns' idea of continuity was different from Paul's and he included several things that Paul has ignored as continuity.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: Mon-El died. He flat lined and Shady was clearly upset. Now, she could have suddenly realized she could revive him and did it off pannel just moments later... or he could have been revived much later by as yet unknown means. The circumstances of the revival (like so many other discrepancies) are unknown... but he was DEAD and now he is alive and obviously has been for some time.
During a universal power failure Mon-El's life support shutdown causing the heart monitor to flatline. 2 issues passed and that version of the Legion title ended with no continuation of that plotline. Ignoring 5 year Gap, we have the current continuity as the continuation of that cliffhanger. Those are all the facts present. Did he die? We don't know. Meanwhile ... Luornu and Val's off panel "comebacks" are just as easily accepted based on less.
Just observating emotion and bias over printed facts.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: I'm not sure which Action Comics issues you're referring to (I really would appreciate issue numbers, since they should go in the list), but if these were Johns-era comics (which I assume they are), Johns' idea of continuity was different from Paul's and he included several things that Paul has ignored as continuity.
Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then. However, like Time Trappers reference to the Pocket Universe the essential point is made with in the context of it's utilization. There so many times as a reader that you just wince at how simple it would be to just "get it right" and half those issues wouldn't be. Although, since creative intent is considered canon then it's safe to assume the same can be said for those " mistakes" . I doubt it is intentional on the part of the creators to not read the books they oh so bad want to reference, it seems they like us recall the "good stuff" the highlights. But forget the stories that lead up to those highlights.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Although, since creative intent is considered canon then it's safe to assume the same can be said for those " mistakes" .
Yes, but we have a different creator now.
If Johns became writer again and started writing stories which implied a pocket universe I'd certainly say it's part of continuity again.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
So to you the entire continuity of a series is based on who is writing the book?
I take it Action 900 must not be in continuity then...is this more of what one brings to the table to prove something "didn't" happen?
Not to mention that Levitz wrote the Pocket Universe and it was his baby...based on "his" continuity you still have nothing published to deny or prove it never happened. Just another writer using the idea and moving it forward in present time.
Hmmm
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then.
I looked these up. Action 864 has a page of the Time Trapper with some floating rocks, but it's not a flashback and there are no Legionnaires on them. The upper left does have some unidentified people in it, but it's not part of the main scene with the floating rocks. And even if that's somehow a flashback, it doesn't imply that the story is part of current continuity except in the sense that it's erased from history but the Trapper still knows about it.
For JLA #148, the story says that GL wipes out memories of things related to everyone's personal futures, which means they won't know that the satellite blew up. Batman wouldn't forget meeting the Legion.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Not to mention that Levitz wrote the Pocket Universe and it was his baby...based on "his" continuity you still have nothing published to deny or prove it never happened.
Just because having a different writer makes it more likely the story is out of continuity doesn't mean that everything with the same writer is in continuity.
You're also being unreasonable by asking for "proof". Changes to continuity are rarely given as proof, since you can always interpret things any way you want; all that changes is whether the interpretation is simple or complicated. And the interpretation you need to do to assume that Conspiracy happened is very complicated to the point of being worse than much retconning (especially retconning of the "we never said that..." variety)
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*removed*
[ May 07, 2011, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Iam Legion ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then.
I looked these up. Action 864 has a page of the Time Trapper with some floating rocks, but it's not a flashback and there are no Legionnaires on them. The upper left does have some unidentified people in it, but it's not part of the main scene with the floating rocks. And even if that's somehow a flashback, it doesn't imply that the story is part of current continuity except in the sense that it's erased from history but the Trapper still knows about it.
Action Comics 864 is practically narrated by the Time Trapper. The scene I think you are talking about comes from Legion of 3 Worlds which when the founding members are transported to the "End of Time" floating on rocks, the Time Trapper explains his attempt to "Remove any true memories of Superboy from the Legion" and behind the Legion members is the vision of the conspirators fighting the Time Trapper .
Point being, we have no idea if it was erased from history as you said. But you do agree that the Time Trapper knows about it therefor it happened. which is all I am stating. It hasnt been ignored it hasnt been retconned and it has been referenced atleast 3 times in modern "continuity".
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: The scene I think you are talking about comes from Legion of 3 Worlds
The scene I meant is the one from Action 864; I had the comic in front of me. It's the last page of the first story.
I think it's possible that the Trapper knows about it, but what he says is vague enough that we can't say he definitely does know it. At any rate, this has no bearing on whether the Legion knows it, to which the answer seems to be "no, unless you really want to twist things".
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: [QBPlease clarify.[/QB]
It's simple. He wanted "proof" that Conspiracy never happened in current Legion continuity. To which my reply is considering how fans can reinterpret things, there is no such thing as proof, only "this takes an awful lot of reinterpretation".
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: The scene I think you are talking about comes from Legion of 3 Worlds
The scene I meant is the one from Action 864; I had the comic in front of me. It's the last page of the first story.
I think it's possible that the Trapper knows about it, but what he says is vague enough that we can't say he definitely does know it. At any rate, this has no bearing on whether the Legion knows it, to which the answer seems to be "no, unless you really want to twist things".
Considering you disregard actual printed words and "twist" them to mean "its possible that the Time Trapper knows" when he states clearly he does in 2 separate books I am at a loss at where you are coming from.
Proof isn't subjective, the reality is there is more printed textual and visual proof that these things happened then their isn't. If a reader comes to conclusion based on what they read that conclusion comes from something tangible, all that is being asked is what frame of reference you have to support the views you come to. If you read the books mentally checking what works and what doesn't that's fine. But where is your frame of reference.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
If he says so in two separate books, you can give me the reference. I asked for the reference. You said Action 864. I checked it and it says exactly what I pointed out.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: If he says so in two separate books, you can give me the reference. I asked for the reference. You said Action 864. I checked it and it says exactly what I pointed out.
As I wrote, Action Comics 864 is practically narrated by the Time Trapper in addition to the Conspiracy scene being shown in Legion of 3 Worlds. Both textually reference the Pocket Universe. Instead of repeating ourselves let us imagine we have the ability to scroll up and read the context of the conversation. Is there a frame reference that you are gauging current continuity against?
Considering the name of this thread and all.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Action 864 and I agree while Johns has a great grasp in writing Legion he ( like so many of us can) seems to make a few continuity mistakes. Like in the same issue when he references JLoA 148 as something Batman or any of them would remember when in fact the issue ended as an out of continuity adventure like so many of the alternate Eath team ups did back then.
For JLA #148, the story says that GL wipes out memories of things related to everyone's personal futures, which means they won't know that the satellite blew up. Batman wouldn't forget meeting the Legion.
You forgot the part where Green Lantern states that he is glad he will *forget* this whole experience. Again that statement along with how so many other of the crossovers ended with the equivalent of a mindwipe to the characters seems to prove otherwise.
[ May 09, 2011, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You forgot the part where Green Lantern states that he is glad he will *forget* this whole experience.
Yes, the panel contradicts itself.
It seems to me that the comment about forgetting the experience has to be the mistake. It is less plausible that the other comment is the mistake, because a lot more words would need to be changed.
At any rate, this means that when Geoff Johns said Batman remembered, he was just deciding which comment was the mistake, not making a change.
As for Legion of Three Worlds, Paul has said that he's not taking everything in Legion of Three Worlds as continuity. Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is. There have already been things from Legion of Three Worlds that he's contradicted, most notably the appearances of the original Emerald Empress and Validus.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You forgot the part where Green Lantern states that he is glad he will *forget* this whole experience.
Yes, the panel contradicts itself.
It seems to me that the comment about forgetting the experience has to be the mistake.
Pretty bold to assume the writer of the story is making a mistake within his own created context.
quote: It is less plausible that the other comment is the mistake, because a lot more words would need to be changed.
. Need to be changed here means changed to make your intrerpitation more valid?
quote:At any rate, this means that when Geoff Johns said Batman remembered, he was just deciding which comment was the mistake, not making a change.
But that is pure conjecture on your part and certainly "stuff" brought to the table that isn't needed to read the book even moreso in "re" interpeting one published so long ago to fit into "current" continuity. ( But this is accepted emotionally and ok)
quote:As for Legion of Three Worlds, Paul has said that he's not taking everything in Legion of Three Worlds as continuity.
Yay. Paul!! We won't know what is what until "published" otherwise.
quote: Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is.
Wold love to read the "rules of reading Legion" which you base this on, while I can't condem you for thinking the way you do nor am I judging, I just do not understand where you are coming from. There are many contradictions in your logic that do not apply across the board...makes me think that can be very confusing.
But going with your above logic and me being bored and having fun with cut n paste. Action864
Legion of Three Worlds
Modern references to the Pocket Universe and Conspiracy. Which is all I have ever stated, published work over conjecture. The "proof" on your end being suggested would be something tangible to help me understand where you might be coming from.
[ May 10, 2011, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Pretty bold to assume the writer of the story is making a mistake within his own created context.
Not really. I didn't say it's a mistake because I don't like it, I said it's a mistake because the two sentences right next to each other contradict themselves.
quote:Need to be changed here means changed to make your intrerpitation more valid?
No, needs to be changed in order to fix the contradiction. I'm not doing this to make an interpretation valid--I'm doing it because there's a contradiction, and if there's a contradiction you have to call one of the statements a mistake. The statement I called a mistake is the one which requires fewer words.
quote:But that is pure conjecture on your part and certainly "stuff" brought to the table that isn't needed to read the book even moreso in "re" interpeting one published so long ago to fit into "current" continuity.
It's not conjecture, it's about fixing contradictions. Geoff Johns ignored one of the statements in JLA #148--but since JLA #148 contains a contradiction, he had no choice but to ignore one of the statements.
quote:Wold love to read the "rules of reading Legion" which you base this on
Paul's statement is from the August 2010 Comics Buyers Guide.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Pretty bold to assume the writer of the story is making a mistake within his own created context.
Not really. I didn't say it's a mistake because I don't like it, I said it's a mistake because the two sentences right next to each other contradict themselves.
What specifically is being contradicted?
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: to be changed here means changed to make your intrerpitation more valid?
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:, to be changed in order to fix the contradiction. I'm not doing this to make an interpretation valid--I'm doing it because there's a contradiction, and if there's a contradiction you have to call one of the statements a mistake. The statement I called a mistake is the one which requires fewer words.
Understanding what you interpret as a contradiction helps to understand why you believe a change needs to be made
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR:But that is pure conjecture on your part and certainly "stuff" brought to the table that isn't needed to read the book even moreso in "re" interpeting one published so long ago to fit into "current" continuity.
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:its not conjecture, it's about fixing contradictions. Geoff Johns ignored one of the statements in JLA #148--but since JLA #148 contains a contradiction, he had no choice but to ignore one of the statements. [/QB]
The conjecture is believing you know where Geoff Johns is coming from and specifically thinking these panels inspired him somehow , unless of course you are utilizing your conjecture to validate his incorrect use of JLA 148 as an in continuity story.
quote:Wold love to read the "rules of reading Legion" which you base this on
quote:Pauls statement is from the August 2010 Comics Buyers Guide.
So you were quoting Paul Levitz when you said,"Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is"?
Then based on the above panels from both Lo3W and Action 864 we can safely say that Conspiracy and the Pocket Universe are in "modern continuity"
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: What specifically is being contradicted?
It says that the post-hypnotic suggestion is "causing us to forget our knowledge of all aspects of this time that relate to our own personal futures", implying that those are being contrasted with other aspects that are not forgotten. It also says GL doesn't think he'll mind forgetting about "this experience", which can be interpreted to mean that the entire adventure is forgotten. This is a contradiction.
I would suggest that the contradiction be resolved by ignoring the latter, as it is shorter and less specific and therefore is far more likely to be sloppy wording.
quote:So you were quoting Paul Levitz when you said,"Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is"?
[ May 12, 2011, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: What specifically is being contradicted?
It says that the post-hypnotic suggestion is "causing us to forget our knowledge of all aspects of this time that relate to our own personal futures", implying that those are being contrasted with other aspects that are not forgotten. It also says GL doesn't think he'll mind forgetting about "this experience", which can be interpreted to mean that the entire adventure is forgotten. This is a contradiction.
That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake. Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.
quote:So you were quoting Paul Levitz when you said,"Anything which appears only in Legion of Three Worlds and is not referenced somewhere else doesn't count until it is"?
I' ll take Paul's suggestion from old Legion Outposts ( letters pages) and agree with the sentiment on how he doesn't count things that don't appear in the Legion series proper.
Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".
[ May 15, 2011, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake.
Huh? The story contradicted itself (assuming you take the second part to mean that they forgot the whole adventure--and you've already said that). Johns and current continuity have nothing to do with it except that Johns and current continuity have to pick one side of the contradiction.
quote: Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.
No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity.
quote: Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".
You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.
Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline).
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: That's still your interpitation and considering you are reinterpitating it with current "continuity" in mind it would read as a contradiction considering Johns mistake.
Huh? The story contradicted itself
Huh? Indeed. You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion. Given your cherry picking efforts in posting it isn't surprising you read in the same manner. So clearly it is your belief that specifically, based solely on those three panels, JLofA 147 & 148 when published, Batman and the rest were aware of their adventure with the Legion in JLoA 149. Yet you need an asterisk attached to the words "pocket universe" in bold refering to a large orange box containing a play by play dissertation as to what that could mean, can mean, will mean , has meant and no longer means in terms to how you obviously understand a story.
quote:
quote: Reading the story from the context when it was published you have an out of continuity story.
No, reading the story in the context it was published means you have a story with a mistake in it. Mistakes happen. They don't make the story out of continuity
What makes it out of continuity is that Batman can't recall what he and the JLA and the JSA don't know occured. There is no mistake.
quote:
quote: Although considering Levitz's quote from the above link you provided it validates what I have been saying all along with regard to the Pocket Universe reference in John's Action Comic 864. ""Only the pre-1990 series and the first two Johns stories--and whatever still-unwritten bits happened in-between will count".
You wanted to know where Paul says Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count. I told you.
Now where's the reference to the pocket universe in Action 864? (And specifically a reference to the pocket universe being part of the Legion's current timeline--not just something the Trapper knows from another timeline).
It obvious you havnt read Action Comics 864 nor do you want to. You ignore that entire book along with one panel posted here. However using Levitz's own quote and the content within Action 864 it seems the the Pocket Universe is referenced in modern continuity or as you put it "the Legion's current timeline".
Which doesn't mean we ever "need" to ever visit it or specifics from the PRE 5 Year Gap Legion. The time from then until now is purposely left unknown or surrounded in Mystery. But until otherwise published there is no reason to simply assume it never happened just because a reader doesn't "like" it and take that dislike and report on it as if it is fact. When in fact if the Pocket Universe and Conpiracy truly never happened something published should clearly, with out a doubt express this. What if anything published does? Certainly not a book that references it in current continuity.
[ May 16, 2011, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion.
There is not three panels saying they forgot their adventure. There's one phrase. The rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).
quote: What makes it out of continuity is that Batman can't recall what he and the JLA and the JSA don't know occured. There is no mistake.
The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.
quote:You ignore that entire book along with one panel posted here.
The panel posted here showed that the Trapper remembered the pocket universe, not that the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity. Being the Trapper, he can remember things that are out of continuity.
If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
According to a short
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
According to a short story in Action Comics #900 by Geoff Johns, the ring was given to her by Saturn Girl in case of emergencies
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Did they say when she got one? In Lightning Saga when they were looking for Legionnaires by tracing the flight ring, they mentioned all the extras. Lois didn't have one.
I'd also imagine that Lois having a flight ring is very inconvenient for Superman plots, since now every time she's falling to her death (or just needs to jump out of a window) she's got a flight ring.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Did they say when she got one? In Lightning Saga when they were looking for Legionnaires by tracing the flight ring, they mentioned all the extras. Lois didn't have one.
I'd also imagine that Lois having a flight ring is very inconvenient for Superman plots, since now every time she's falling to her death (or just needs to jump out of a window) she's got a flight ring.
in Action 900 it soesn't say when Lois got it but presumably after she married - which means after the Lightning Saga as there had been no contact before that since before Clark got married.
Lois keeps the ring 'hidden' under her desk and she did say in Action 900 that she won't use it to fly because she preferes flying with Superman.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: she did say in Action 900 that she won't use it to fly because she preferes flying with Superman.
Sheesh, that's ridiculous. I can understand wanting to fly with Superman to have fun, but that's not going to save her the next time she's thrown out of a helicopter and Superman happens to be off in China at the moment.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: You are basing your entire point of view on one sentence surrounded by 3 panels stating clearly the heroes forgot their adventure thanks to Green Lantern's Post hypnotic suggestion.
There is not three panels saying they forgot their adventure.
Yes there are.
quote: rest of the three panels imply they forgot specific things (for instance not knowing what happened to the satellite), not the whole adventure (for instance, they still knew they had been in the 30th Century).
Please quote how they forgot specific things but still knew they had been to the 30th century.
quote: There is no mistake.The idea that they don't know anything occurred is based on your belief that the original story had them forget. The original story contradicted itself about whether they forgot.
Again that is your opinion it isn't fact and it is based it would seem on your intent on making Johns continuity faux paux canon. However u did choose not to answer the question on whether or not you believed Batman and the rest to have had said adventure in the following issue of JLA 149, not to mention that it hasn't been referenced in 34 years as in continuity, because it never was. Now maybe I could understand if it was in fact referenced atleast 3 times in the current continuity if not textually then maybe visually.
Like the Pocket Universe and Conspiracy
quote: If you can show me a panel where the pocket universe is part of the current Legion's continuity--not just something that the Trapper remembers--I will put it in the list as part of continuity. If you don't, I won't.
Already done based on your stipulation of non printed in the comics Levitz quote. Utilizing the general reading abilities learned from grade school and beyond not to mention cut n paste; Action Comics 864 and Legion of 3Worlds.
But you choose to interpet the Time Trapper as existing in his own continuity and pick and choose in your own mind what he talks about and refers to and how that manages to exist in general continuity. With out again, no reference to what u feel is or isn't valid beyond your own opinion. Considering you place spelling errors as "continuity errors" it doesn't bother me what u place on the "list". It is full ofcreator intent "errors" itself. I just hope new readers to Legion have the capacity, if they should stumble on to this site, not to fall under the notion the list is in any way accurate or unbiased on it's info.
As proven in your continuity error reasoning machine.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: According to a short
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, I read that Lois Lane was shown to have a flight ring (in a comic, not in Smallville). Does anyone have a reference to that?
According to a short story in Action Comics #900 by Geoff Johns, the ring was given to her by Saturn Girl in case of emergencies
Don't we have to wait and see if Paul Levitz says Action Comics 900 is in continuity before we can establish any facts?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: IAlready done based on your stipulation of non printed in the comics Levitz quote. Utilizing the general reading abilities learned from grade school and beyond not to mention cut n paste; Action Comics 864 and Legion of 3Worlds.
Sorry, I asked you for a panel. Issue numbers aren't panels. (And Legion of Three Worlds doesn't count anyway unless Paul used it somewhere else.)
quote:Don't we have to wait and see if Paul Levitz says Action Comics 900 is in continuity before we can establish any facts?
No, because Paul didn't make a statement about Action #900 similar to the one he made about Legion of Three Worlds.
Posted by Power Boy on :
hey hey hey hey
it's gettin a lil crazy in here.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Power Boy: hey hey hey hey
it's gettin a lil crazy in here.
Absolutely trying.
I've posted actual modern comics referencing the pocket universe in current continuity , and for sort followed the movable scale that is Levitz' approval and now it seems continuity is based on what the characters, on this case the Time Trapper himself is really thinking beyond what he referencing during the context of his own conversations.
So if there is a loop hole not in print causing the PU to"not" be in current continuity then we can use behind the scenes Facebook non Legion Proper theories to prove it isn't including but limited to anything not though of or printed yet....so it seems.
Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
But in Action 864 the Trapper says "I've attacked head on, confused them with pocket dimensions and alternate history". Nowhere is the term Pocket Universe used. It is 'pocket dimensions' (plural) linked to alternate history. It's only my opinion but I do not see this as saying the pocket universe exists in this reality. My interpretation of this statement was that Geoff Johns was acknowledging the Post Crisis (Pocket Universe), Mordru-verse and Glorith-verse realities as being known to the Trapper. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that attacking with alternate history has happened in this continuity - it happened in an alternate continuity otherwise it wouldn't be alternate - so why would the pocket dimensions be any different.
That's my opinion. I guess the statement in Action 864 is more ambiguous than I read it so until a detailed history of this Legion comes out it will remain a question mark to some.
Personally, I cannot see a storyline where the Legion has had a Clark-Superboy-who-will-grow-up-to-be-Superman since the early days (and a Mon-El) and then another Superboy (with another Mon-El possibly) pops out of the ether and produces anything like the PU story arc as told. There is no never-was-a-Superboy Superman for the PU Superboy to meet or replace in Legion history and so there was no reason for the Trapper to create the Pocket Universe.
Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
The PU was a good story with powerful moments but it was there to fill gaps in the Superman/boy relationship with the Legion that have now been filled by the real Superboy again. It served a purpose in it's own continuity but not in this one so why would DC want the PU in this reality?
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: [Meanwhile I'll just use Action Comics 864 as a modern reference to the Pocket Universe unless anything actually published can establish or prove it never happened.
But in Action 864 the Trapper says "I've attacked head on, confused them with pocket dimensions and alternate history". Nowhere is the term Pocket Universe used. It is 'pocket dimensions' (plural) linked to alternate history. It's only my opinion but I do not see this as saying the pocket universe exists in this reality. My interpretation of this statement was that Geoff Johns was acknowledging the Post Crisis (Pocket Universe), Mordru-verse and Glorith-verse realities as being known to the Trapper. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to think that attacking with alternate history has happened in this continuity - it happened in an alternate continuity otherwise it wouldn't be alternate - so why would the pocket dimensions be any different.
Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
quote: my opinion. I guess the statement in Action 864 is more ambiguous than I read it so until a detailed history of this Legion comes out it will remain a question mark to some.
Absolutely! And for me the questions gear more towards "how it didn't happen?" over a simple "let's assume it didn't happen, shall we?".
quote: Persoall, I cannot see a storyline where the Legion has had a Clark-Superboy-who-will-grow-up-to-be-Superman since the early days (and a Mon-El) and then another Superboy (with another Mon-El possibly) pops out of the ether and produces anything like the PU story arc as told. There is no never-was-a-Superboy Superman for the PU Superboy to meet or replace in Legion history and so there was no reason for the Trapper to create the Pocket Universe.
Except the Time Trapper stated he tried to eliminate Superboy from reality and in doing so created the Pocket Universe (Dimension). Making absolute no reference to a story would be easier to say it never happened than by referencing it both visually and textually. By doing that you ,as a writer are stating it happened ( some way or another) and as a reader you are left with wondering HOW, but either way wether explained or not...it seems to have happened.
Theoretically, it could have been a long adventure after Crisis when time was all messed up just as we seen it, but in reverse. Meaning the Legion was fooled from Cosmic Boy's mini up till Conspiracy. Who knows.
At the same time remember, Levitz wanted Supergirl ( the original who died in Crisis) to be Sensor Girl and wrote that character that way until that changed... But this might give some insight to a possible perspective on how the Legion works in DC Continuity if you look at it from the future (1000 years) back towards the past. Knowing there is a huge gap to fill and it isn't necessarily cohesive and not intended to be. Hence Levitz stating "chroniclers error" upon his return.
From Brainy's perspective , I imagine he might say something like " oh look it's Superboy, are you here for good or are you going to disappear again" sarcastically. And big dumb Clark might just laugh as he runs off to chat with Kara, whom he hasn't met yet in his own time...
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
quote: The PU was a good story with powerful moments but it was there to fill gaps in the Superman/boy relationship with the Legion that have now been filled by the real Superboy again. It served a purpose in it's own continuity but not in this one so why would DC want the PU in this reality?
It was a great story and a classic use of retconning we no longer see in comics, it gave life to a character and successfully saved the Legions roots and past published adventures. It makes sense it was a labor of love from Paul Levitz and I agree it may not be needed today...but then there shouldn't be references made to it next thing ya might see Anti-Lad showing up confusing things even more.
[ May 24, 2011, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: TimeTrapR ]
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
I think why you seem to be at odds with most people on this thread is that it is generally agreed that this is a NEW reality coming out of the multiverse created in Infinite Crisis. To date there have been several realities:
the Earth-1 universe of the original multiverse (up to Crisis on Infinite Earths). In parallel to this was the various other universes like the 'Adult' Legion universe.
After Crisis came the single universe where Superman never was Superboy and the Time Trapper created the pocket universe. this Post Crisis universe was reset out of existance when Mon-El destroyed the Time Trapper of that universe.
When time was reset the Mordru-verse came into existance until Glorith seized power when the Glorithverse was born.
After the events of Zero Hour, time was reset again and the reboot Legion was then the Legion of that universe.
Infinite Crisis recreated a new multiverse and in that multiverse at least four Legions exist together with the remnants of Legion-247 who now call themselves the New Wanderers.
It is important to be clear that none of these happened before or after the others but are resets of time that meant they replaced the others.
The current reality isn't pre 5 year gap but has replaced the 5 year gap universe (and by implication all the universes that existed before the 5 year gap universe).
It has been established that much of pre-Crisis did occur on the current Earth 0 (so the JLA/JSA/Legion crossover did happen on this current Earth) and indeed Legacies showed that there was a Crisis of sorts even in this new continuity, just one where the JLA and JSA were from a single world and the Earths never merged.
Geoff Johns wanted to pick the Legion up by writing off all of the post-Crisis events. Paul Levitz doesn't see things the same (which in my opinion is a pity because it would have been much neater).
So when we look at the history of the current Legion of Earth 0, we have to recognise that what went before the Lightning Saga, remains largely un-documented. (which is why this thread exists!)
Earth 0 history obviously follows similarities to the pre- and post-Crisis universes but could not possibly be the same as either. Jimmy Olsen, Lana Lang, Pete Ross and Supergirl are very different characters to previous universes, while even Superboy's backstory and abilities are different to either the pre-Crisis or Pocket Universe Boys of Steel. Add the fact that other things could not have happened as they did - the Universo/Green Lantern issue springs to mind - and this is very definitely a different universe with a different back story, albeit with many similarities to now non-existant universes.
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
Matrix wasn't in Reign of Hell, the Linda Danvers Supergirl was, without any reference to Matrix which had already been separated from Supergirl anyway. Whatever you think of the citizenship issue, I read - but I can't find again, sorry - that the current Superman editorial team are totally against the 'Superman executioner' storyline still being in continuity. And this fits with the dialogue in Lo3W about whether Superboy Prime should be killed or not and with other flashback stories like Legaies, Secret Origin etc that totally omitted any reference. The Earth 0 Superman did not execute the phantom zone prisoners (presumably because he never encountered them), while the post Crisis Superman did.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by TimeTrapR: Now see, I see "this" reality as existing PRE Glorith -verse since it is PRE 5year Gap and since Johns made such an effort to place the JLA /JSA Legion PRE Crisis, in addition to not moving them forward passed say , Magic Wars; any reference to a Pocket Universe would seem to be an obvious one towards specifically the one the Time Trapper created especially since it is HIM referencing it.
I think why you seem to be at odds with most people on this thread is that it is generally agreed that this is a NEW reality coming out of the multiverse created in Infinite Crisis. To date there have been several realities:
The current reality isn't pre 5 year gap but has replaced the 5 year gap universe (and by implication all the universes that existed before the 5 year gap universe).
.
Whoah whoa wha?? When was this revealed??
All we know is "some" time passed from Magic Wars till "now". It would seem anyone assuming 5 years has gone by is somehow simply trying make SOME desperate connection to the real 5YG.
I think the reason I'm "at odds" here ( really?) is that I'm actually reading the books published as if Magic Wars ended and then boom! The Legion appears next on JLA/JSA .
There isn't any reason to assume that ANYTHING 5YG has/is or will happen.
quote:Added to which, the Superman editorial team was only too happy to drop the Superman killed the phantom zone prisoners storyline from continuity so dragging up the PU would be an embarrasment to the Superman titles.
I havnt read anything about this. Is there anything published negating this story, I heard Matrix was in the recent Reign In Hell mini. The embarrassment part is opinion and I'm sure isn't "as" embarrassing as say whats going on there right now with all the citizenship crapola, YMMV.
quote:Matrix wasn't in Reign of Hell, the Linda Danvers Supergirl was, without any reference to Matrix which had already been separated from Supergirl anyway. Whatever you think of the citizenship issue, I read - but I can't find again, sorry - that the current Superman editorial team are totally against the 'Superman executioner' storyline still being in continuity. And this fits with the dialogue in Lo3W about whether Superboy Prime should be killed or not and with other flashback stories like Legaies, Secret Origin etc that totally omitted any reference. The Earth 0 Superman did not execute the phantom zone prisoners (presumably because he never encountered them), while the post Crisis Superman did.
Again all I ask is for some published reference , because it all sounds like speculation to me and speculation used to fit the design of " I don't like that so it never happened" yet that being the case logic can certainly work both ways as easily.
While Infinite Crisis did create a new Multiverse Nothing in print has disclaimed the existence of Matrix, Phantom Zone criminals of the pocket Universes execution or the pocket universe itself.
By utilizing those elements with in the reference of a story you are by doing so perpetuating it's existence especially if yourfurthering it's effects on characters in an effort to move the story along.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
Let me just reiterate so's not to infer I ignored all your valid points
I understand that it could make sense to some to want ot fill a void that was removed by eliminating the 5YG continuity and by doing so assume after End of an Era the Archie Legion filled it and now the current Legion serves to fill that void also.
All I'm saying is that "void" doesn't exist. By simply continuing after Magic Wars there is no other continuity to fill. We have no sense of how much real time has passed for the Legion and nothing except those final pages and what is currently published can or should WANT to fill that void.
Therefore, there was no Glorithverse, Garth is no longer Proty, Mon-El is no longer ( as far as we know) carrying the Time Trapper within him nor were we ever shown his fate after the heart monitors shorted out. It seems simple to just erase anything after the "Gap" to me, I never once thought to give it such validity that it would be necessary to compare it with current continuity in a way as to think things could contradict it. Contradict something that never took place?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Modified: "Probably removed from continuity" is mostly moved into "other DCU", and I created separate sections for new and old DCU.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Modified: "Probably removed from continuity" is mostly moved into "other DCU", and I created separate sections for new and old DCU.
It's just a theory at this stage but I'm seeing LSH v6 (the current run) as post Flashpoint - well at least until v7 comes out and somethings different.
My logic in saying V6 is post Flashpoint is that Flashpoint is referenced by Harmonia Li as a known event in history. But on top of this there are so many anomalies between the Johns run and the Levitz run that the two being from different timelines makes emminant sense. Consider:
The Emerald Empress being alive (Johns) and long dead (Levitz) Tyroc being MIA (Johns) and back with the Legion (Levitz) Night Girl and XS as team-mates (Johns) and XS not knowing Lydda (Levitz) Starboy seemingly coming back with Cham, Tenz etc (Johns/Gates) but only later showing up (Levitz) Lu called Duplicate Damsel (Johns) and Duplicate Dirl (Levitz)
These are only some of the examples I have found. As I said at the start, just a theory at this stage.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
I don't consider mistakes to be signs of the story taking place in a new continuity. "V6 takes place in a new continuity where Gates' homeworld is named Vyraga, and Marzal is a 'homeworld'..."
Also, Paul's already on record as saying not all of Legion of Three Worlds is continuity, which covers the Empress.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Also, Paul's already on record as saying not all of Legion of Three Worlds is continuity, which covers the Empress.
That's exactly my point Lo3W was in continuity when Johns wrote it so what has taken it out? Flashpoint!
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Shining Son on :
I hope DC and Paul Levitz do make it official that this current incarnation was the "post-Flashpoint" incarnation right from its start.
I'm sure someone will ask him eventually.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
The Legion has had several crossovers which clearly did not take place after Flashpoint, including the last New Krypton story and the crossover in Supergirl annual 2.
And while the new series did have an early reference to Flashpoint, remember that the whole reboot idea is a last minute demand from DC management. A reference to Flashpoint would simply be a reference to a crossover as a crossover, it would not establish that those stories are post-reboot.
As for known changes such as the Emerald Empress, when a writer ignores a story, that doesn't put the story in a "different continuity", it means the story is ignored. There isn't a separate continuity where Cosmic Boy has magnetic eyes or where the Legionnaires call themselves "lad" and "lass" because they invented a way to prevent aging. No in-story history rewrite wiped those plot elements out of continuity; taking them away is purely an out-of-story thing with no explanation in-story at all.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: As for known changes such as the Emerald Empress, when a writer ignores a story, that doesn't put the story in a "different continuity", it means the story is ignored. There isn't a separate continuity where Cosmic Boy has magnetic eyes or where the Legionnaires call themselves "lad" and "lass" because they invented a way to prevent aging. No in-story history rewrite wiped those plot elements out of continuity; taking them away is purely an out-of-story thing with no explanation in-story at all.
Sorry, I don't buy that. Sure some silver age story with magnetic eyes can be ignored or a holiday special where Shady had umbra's solid light abilities even... but.... Legion of three worlds was a solid part of not only Legion continuity but also DC's (return of Kid Flash and Superboy)only two years ago. For a writer to just lose it's ramifications is sloppy in the extreme. To dismiss parts and not others is frankly taking the p!ss. If such things are dismissed as writer's perogative then this whole thread is pointless because the answer to every change is "Levitz/Johns/Robinson just decided that that was the way it now is".
Either Lo3W is in continuity or it should be explained in story why it isn't. Flashpoint would be an obvious explanation if no other changes are revealed in/after September.
Posted by the Hermit on :
Unfortunately this whole practice of one writer ignoring the continuity established by other writers is what eventually led to DC losing its spot as the number one comics company back in the silver age.
Marvel made it a practice to keep all their books consistent with each other, even to the point of moving most of their characters that were starring in their own series out of the Avengers and replacing them with "orphans" such as Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch specifically to avoid contradicting storylines. DC, meanwhile, was publishing books that would have (just to use one glaring example) the Earth-two based Spectre treat the Earth-one Flash as if he was the only character ever to bear that name. Fans got sick of it and deserted DC for Marvel in droves.
Sadly, DC seems destined to never learn from its own mistakes.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Posted by the Hermit on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Ah, but was it Johns, or did George Perez just get carried away with his crowd scenes?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Johns said all along that his break off point was Crisis on Infinite Earths so as well as bringing back the Empress and Validus Johns also wrote out the Death of Superboy and its sequel conspiracy. Tharok was brought back in COIE so I suppose it was consistent Johns bringing him back as well.
Personally I thought Johns was right and Levitz's overturning was a mistake but that is just an opinion.
Posted by Zero Kahn on :
I think even if you keep in stuff past Crisis the break point should be the death of Superboy. There is no real way to make stuff after that fit since the pocket U Superboy no longer exists. I have to agree Levitzs mad a mistake on this one.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Legion of Three Worlds was in fact a continuity mess in several areas. Bringing *back* the Emerald Empress was one of them. You can't blame Paul for ignoring that she was alive, when the fact that she was even shown as being alive already ignored her death.
(And it's not just that Johns was continuing from before the end of V3 either. He also had Tharok and Validus back.)
Johns said all along that his break off point was Crisis on Infinite Earths so as well as bringing back the Empress and Validus Johns also wrote out the Death of Superboy and its sequel conspiracy. Tharok was brought back in COIE so I suppose it was consistent Johns bringing him back as well.
Personally I thought Johns was right and Levitz's overturning was a mistake but that is just an opinion.
Problem with John's version was he kept Karate Kid alive but had Projectra be Sensor Girl. His "Faux Pau" left the continuity gate pretty much wide open.
In today's day and age even.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
no KK being alive was explained that the founders found a way to resurrect him. Jeckie could still be sensor girl and val could have been resurrected after that. She rejoined as Sensor Girl in issue 14 that was before Crisis Occurred. First Post Crisis Legion issue was 19. So he didn't make a mistake at all.
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
Yeah, off panel (an after-thought?). Sorta like "oops , that's right Karate Kid was dead pre-Crisis. "
But again, the notion of Johns's intent on when the Legion was supposed to be continued from was never revealed in print.
Just goes to show how mixing creator interviews with published work can be more confusing than what is actually published.
Taking away from the equation the idea that they were supposed to be "pre -Crisis" set forth by an "interview" or "internet rumor", you still have a fully functional team continuing from "Magic Wars". And as a reader, one of the main "faux paus" to get over is the Karate Kid factor. Was he brought back simply to die in "Countdown"? As a goofy cliff hanger for Batman to find disguised as Trident? Whatever, if any long term idea Johns had for the character was never developed and most of his back story happened off panel or in an online message brd. That's pretty weak. And certainly left a wide open gate for Levitz to just shrug it off and continue from his last run without so much a mention to something like, "the founders utilized the same life giving method from Daxam used on Lightining Lad years ago, on Karate Kid's charred body" etc.
Sounds pretty contrived to me.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by TimeTrapR on :
THis is how I have always understood the Legion's take on the 20th Century.
They are not interested in the minutia of the past, they are simply aware of "events" happening or allegedly happening. Like we are aware of the "Legends" of certain events and people from thousands of years ago but have no real way of knowing what actually occured or what really motivated William Wallace or King Aurthur, etc. The main problem is when we want to think that the "present" comic stories HAVE to map out literally to the 30th Century. Its illogical to think so. From a broader sense, the notion that the Legion was visiting a manufactured past is more useful and leaves the canvas of the present DCU future ( pre or post Crisis/Flashpoint/whatever) more open. Especially in a present (now) where the future is fluid and the idea of alternate realities has found it's way to the common lexicon. It seems that in the 30th Century they are aware of their ever changing historical knowledge. Which is just as true in real life as in the comics.
Posted by Iam Legion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
quote:Originally posted by Iam Legion: So, will there be a new edition of this thread? Because all the answers (few though they were) that we got are now unanswered due to the re-launch.
The Legion is going to be one of the least rebooted of DC's series. So I created a separate section for new-DCU connections, but I didn't get rid of anything else.
It's true that things that don't fall under "other DC Universe connections" may still change (if only because even many of the ones that aren't about DC universe connections still appeared in other DC universe books). I may have to say things like "resolved differently in old DCU and new DCU" or "resolved in old DCU, but this may no longer apply because..."
If anyone has better suggestions for how to handle it, feel free to speak up. I don't, however, think that a completely new thread is a good idea, because a lot of the items will be the same in old and new DCU. Maybe a separate section for "this inconsistency comes from another DCU title and so may not necessarily apply any more". Or maybe I can just use a different color for items that are probably not part of new DCU continuity. One problm with this is that if post-Crisis is any precedent, DC will do a *lot* of not talking about things and leaving people hanging for years.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
While we're at it, was the panel with XS from Adventure #1 ever used as part of Flashpoint? Geoff Johns worked on Flashpoint, and XS was in it, so it is possible.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Nobody knows the answer to that XS question? Come on....
Another question for the fan historians: I need to know all the times that Tyroc's home Marzal is referred to as a planet in V6. Does anyone have the references?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added Jim Lee's statement that the purple hooded woman is a new character (and thus not Glorith).
Posted by NoLongerLegion on :
*delete*
[ December 21, 2011, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Dave Hackett on :
quote:Originally posted by NoLongerLegion: How about the fact that Jan, who had the power and skill to down hundreds (if not thousands) of Daxamites without killing them, now can't stop 1 Daxamite?
Different circumstances. In GDS he created more lead in the atmosphere to poison (slightly) the unprotected Daxamites. In the recent issue, the Daxamite has the Anti-lead serum and it's too complex/minute for Jan to manipulate while in his bloodstream.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: While we're at it, was the panel with XS from Adventure #1 ever used as part of Flashpoint? Geoff Johns worked on Flashpoint, and XS was in it, so it is possible.
no it was never used
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added Secret Origin #2 where "Brainiac" is considered an honorable title, even though it was considered shameful in Adventure #9. This restores continuity from Levitz's previous run and is an un-retconning, not a retconning.
Posted by doublechinner on :
Seems in general that Levitz is depowering the Legionnaires, especially Element Lad. Didn't he have to touch something to transmute it in the 3Boot? I like that limitation. Note sure I like "oh, it's too complicated for me." Wonder if that is being done to differentiate Element Lad from Chemical Kid? Could Chem Kid alter the structure of a complex organic molecule? Could the two of them do it together? Or are CK's powers always about reactions? If so, he could speed up enzymatic breakdown of the antilead syrum, I suppose?
Posted by gone on :
*poof*
[ March 29, 2012, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Viridis Lament on :
In my long history of message board posting across many, many forums; when a post starts with -
"Not wanting to pick a fight"
or anything similiar (eg, "not trolling or anything but,") that is exactly the intent of the post.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
In Gone's defense, that is a fair question. And it was rather nice of him to put it inside a spoiler.
My own thoughts on continuity (or rather 'continuity') have been clearly not welcome here, so I will not repeat them. Nor will I blame Gone for any uncivil answers he may receive.
Posted by gone on :
*poof*
[ March 29, 2012, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Exnihil on :
With respect to gone's request directly above, I just got finishing typing out my response, and wanted to share it with the larger group instead of directly, in case anyone felt the same.
Anyway...
I agree that it's a valid question. Though I haven't participated in this specific thread, I do enjoy discussions about continuity (even understanding that whatever theories are suggested or conclusions are reached are likely to never even be addressed in print).
I can't speak for anyone else but, from my own perspective, I would say that fictional continuity debates - and the cataloguing of minutia - enhance my enjoyment of the source material by making me feel like a more active participant in the story. It's as though whatever little plot discrepancy I noted - and subsequently solved to my own satisfaction - becomes a bridge to extend my suspension of disbelief.
I don't know if I put that well, so let me give an example that goes back almost to the Legion's beginnings. When the Legion first met Supergirl they said they were the children of the Legionnaires who had previously (from a publishing standpoint) met Superboy. That little bit of plot was subsequently ignored and never addressed in-story... but it always bugged me. I "needed" to know why, from a continuity perspective, that conversation had happened.
I concocted the idea that this was actually, from the Legion's perspective, the first time they ever travelled back to the 20th century. Upon realizing that Supergirl already knew of them from her cousin's stories about his childhood, and knowing that those events hadn't happened yet for them, they suddenly realized the enormity of the time travel repercussions. Not wanting to engage Supergirl in this discussion for fear of messing with their own future, they just sort of panicked and blurted out that "children" thing to quickly change the subject.
Would something so convoluted like that ever be addressed in-story? Probably not... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
Like I say, I don't know why anyone else likes the process of continuity debate, but that's why I do.
Posted by Dave Hackett on :
Continuity and solving disparate continuity is fun. Now, when you become invested in it and someone makes a stupid diversion it can be very frustrating, but also an opportunity to solve that conundrum. Different writers play to it with different strengths. John Ostrander was a master of taking lemons and making story lemonade. Johns started out in that vein but lost the thread along the way and started contributing more to unnecessary retcons than fixing bad ones. Levitz is somewhere in the middle. He seems interested in a consistent narrative within his own work, but is perfectly happy to ignore what came before (including some of his earlier stuff).
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Exnihil: ... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
This expresses my thoughts exactly.
I used to LOVE figuring out continuity. Back in the early '80s, I calculated birthdates for each Marvel hero (most of whom hadn't been around longer than 20 years at that point, so it was *mildly* plausible that Spidey was born in 1945) and being so annoyed when Marvel would throw in a line that violated the "realism" of my timeline (e.g., Ben and Reed having known each other for 20-odd years instead of 40).
Much later I accepted the "realities" of comic book publishing, including the notion that heroes cannot age on par with real people. But during those years when I was inventing my own answers, I felt as if I had something to contribute to the Marvel Universe and that, in some ways, it was "mine".
Of course, this was long before the Internet, so I had no one to share my ideas with. (I did send a letter to Marvel once, outlining the probable birth year of every major character. They ignored it.) Were I reading the current Legion series, I'd probably love engaging in a thread such as this.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
What purpose does this thread serve? What purpose does any thread serve, really?
Some of us like speculating on whether a tree that collapsed on an insectoid alien in a story from the sixties might have been a drunken Tree-Man of Arbro.
Other people seem to enjoy collecting data on how the Legion as portrayed in the current run differs from the Legion as portrayed in previous runs.
To each their own.
As far as continuity in general goes, I don't care so much that the current version of the Legion isn't exactly like the version of the Legion from thirty years ago, except incidentally in the fact that many of the changes from then I happen to dislike significantly, such as changing R.J. Brande from a kindly, benevolent self-made man to someone with a weird speech pattern who buys politicians and makes me feel like joining an Occupy Weisinger Plaza movement.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Exnihil: With respect to gone's request directly above, I just got finishing typing out my response, and wanted to share it with the larger group instead of directly, in case anyone felt the same.
Anyway...
I agree that it's a valid question. Though I haven't participated in this specific thread, I do enjoy discussions about continuity (even understanding that whatever theories are suggested or conclusions are reached are likely to never even be addressed in print).
I can't speak for anyone else but, from my own perspective, I would say that fictional continuity debates - and the cataloguing of minutia - enhance my enjoyment of the source material by making me feel like a more active participant in the story. It's as though whatever little plot discrepancy I noted - and subsequently solved to my own satisfaction - becomes a bridge to extend my suspension of disbelief.
I don't know if I put that well, so let me give an example that goes back almost to the Legion's beginnings. When the Legion first met Supergirl they said they were the children of the Legionnaires who had previously (from a publishing standpoint) met Superboy. That little bit of plot was subsequently ignored and never addressed in-story... but it always bugged me. I "needed" to know why, from a continuity perspective, that conversation had happened.
I concocted the idea that this was actually, from the Legion's perspective, the first time they ever travelled back to the 20th century. Upon realizing that Supergirl already knew of them from her cousin's stories about his childhood, and knowing that those events hadn't happened yet for them, they suddenly realized the enormity of the time travel repercussions. Not wanting to engage Supergirl in this discussion for fear of messing with their own future, they just sort of panicked and blurted out that "children" thing to quickly change the subject.
Would something so convoluted like that ever be addressed in-story? Probably not... but it answered that niggling point to my own personal satisfaction and I took that away as my own version of continuity. In doing so, I now became - of sorts - a type of co-author of the Legion story that existed in my mind, a hybrid between the printed "facts" and the extension of that in my imagination.
Like I say, I don't know why anyone else likes the process of continuity debate, but that's why I do.
Exnihil I applied exactly the same logic to that conversation as you. I share your feelings on continuity debate as well.
Posted by Set on :
I find the list useful for keeping track of what's been stated officially, so I can decide what to reference for use in my fanfic writing.
And what purpose does fanfic serve? None at all. It just makes me happy.
Posted by gone on :
*poof*
[ March 29, 2012, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
In the spirit that the above posters have shown, I will chime in after all. Perhaps those who made me avoid this forum are no longer as unavoidable.
First, as to continuity itself, i see several types.
There is tight continuity, as exemplified by the Stan Lee 1960s model, in which if the Hulk farts in his own issue, it is cross-referenced when Peter Parker hears it all the way across town. This system works when there is a sigular vison to keep multi-series vectors interactive (a la Lee) or when there is a large staff devoted to keeping track of this (such as within a movie, in the Lucas Star Wars universe, or even in the heyday of TV soaps). Neither. DC nor Legion specifically have ever adhered to this, as much as some fans may wish to the contrary. It did not exist pre-crisis, and every effort to create such an order has failed, insomuch as such efforts require some sort of changes to what has previously been presented. The cat was never in the bag on this front, especially for Legion (magnetic eyes, anyone?).
Next, there is what i shall call sitcom continuity, in which characters essentailly are standardized, so standardized that no matter what happens in any particular episode, they are essentially the same at the start of any episode as they were at the outset of any other. This is typical of precrisis Superboy stories, I Love Lucy, and many many others. The Simpsons uses this to an extent; Homer can be a vice-presidential candidate but it is never referenced again (although, yes, there may be occassional slight changes, like the addition/subtaction of a supporting cast member, but nothing major). Legion established itself early on as not being this, although Superboy remained so.
Next, there is ballpark continuity, in which there is an order, but it is deliberately hard to nail down. Hellblazer is an example of this; a storyteller can refer back to some event or girlfriend from 10 years ago; even though we can look back on the comics and figure out which issues it. Would take place between, it really doesn't. Matter. The character inherently has backstory/sidestory we wil neer know the totality of, and inttroducing new-old characters works. Similarly, rather than Hellblazer fans debating as to the contradictory stories as to whether John can drive a car or not, we just accept that as part of the mystery. Legion has only occassionally gone this route: pre-Adv 300 when there was no real sense of how many legionnaires there were and news ones were introduced on the drop of a dime, within the five year gap, and the pre-#1 events in Threeboot. In general, there is so much Legion lore that fans have enjoyed (or otherwise felt compelled) to place a tighter order on what is perceived to be canon than this approach generally allows.
There are undoubtedly plenty of variations beyond my summaries, but i am limiting my description to four. Thus my last category is what. Will call Arthurian, in which there have been so many storytellers and versions that it is asically impossible to impose a singular structure upon them all while still including all the variants. In many ways, Lancelot may well have originated as a Laurel Kent to Tristan's Supergirl, but it doesn't matter. The canon is thematically true, no matter how many variants and contradictions emerge. As may be guessed, this is the model i think works best with Legion. There are too many variants and contadictions to ever be covered in a singular framework, and i am okay with that, so long as it fits a larger thematic truthiness.
So, having taken the long way around the barn, for those who want to figure out which of the many contadictory elements are being used in this current version, so be it. I pesonally enjoy figuring it as the story unravels, but to each their own. I only object to being told ones opinion does not. Matter because it doesn't fit one poster's individual perception of what is now continuity, simply becuas they have made a big list. I also question the prioritizing of continuity above all else, but again, that is their choice.
As Exxy and the others are saying, continuty can be a fun exercize to put incomgruities and gaps together; that's part of the fun (and i came to the same hypothesis re the 'children of the legion' comment). But it can be an encumberance when continuity gets in the way of story, enjoyment, or both, and such conditions can be created by storyteller or merely inferred by readers.
To me, if i cannot find a way to enjoy it, it isn't worth my time, unless i'm being paid for it. With comics, i am not paid for it, so i am not going to attach great weight to it. If i really cared about which details are in play in the current version, i'd be very vested in this thread. I am content to see where Paul Levitz et al take us; i don't want to overthink the ride. I used to work in a CBS; i lived continuity and breathed it. I foud that i'd lost the sheer joy of surprise and excitement, which i'd rather have. All i ask is that it fits the larger thematic picture, which it does.
Posted by Candlelight on :
Great answers/thoughts, guys, to an interesting question!
I currently watch Fringe and Once Upon a Time and have watched/read many other 'alternate reality' and 'rebooted' and 'continuity additions or reworkings' stories over my long years with myths/sci-fi/fantasy media.
I tend to just take it in stride, although I like to sometimes play with continuity ideas, like Ex and others have stated that they like to indulge in from time to time, too. And for all the reasons that they've stated.
My perspective is as a visual artist, though, so my solutions might be more literal. The example used, the Legion 'parents', I just took at face value and created characters for.
I agree with Kent's terms, as well. I think that DC had a harder time than Marvel because it's an older franchise, which makes keeping things straight, even before any rebootings, more difficult.
When Marvel started, IIRC, everything (or ALMOST everything) was written/drawn by one team, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
That kind of cohesiveness hasn't been possible since those very early days, in any of the largest companies.
Reboots are needed, I'm afraid, since even stretching lifespans only works so long when characters have events happen in their lives.
Even on sitcoms like I LOVE LUCY or Everone Loves Raymond children are born and character staples get sick and die. imo
[ February 29, 2012, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Candlelight ]
Posted by the Hermit on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
There is tight continuity, as exemplified by the Stan Lee 1960s model, in which if the Hulk farts in his own issue, it is cross-referenced when Peter Parker hears it all the way across town. This system works when there is a sigular vison to keep multi-series vectors interactive (a la Lee) or when there is a large staff devoted to keeping track of this (such as within a movie, in the Lucas Star Wars universe, or even in the heyday of TV soaps).
I believe that the long-term goal of the 52-boot was/is to establish this type of continuity at DC. It'll be interesting to see how long they can keep it up.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: Even on sitcoms like I LOVE LUCY or Everone Loves Raymond children are born and character staples get sick and die. imo
Well, sure. After all, those characters are played by actors - who ultimately quit/get fired or get old/sick/die. Even on the Simpsons, a show which doesn't have to deal with aging so directly, a few characters have been written out due to actors quitting/dying.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: I think that DC had a harder time than Marvel because it's an older franchise, which makes keeping things straight, even before any rebootings, more difficult.
When Marvel started, IIRC, everything (or ALMOST everything) was written/drawn by one team, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
That kind of cohesiveness hasn't been possible since those very early days, in any of the largest companies.
Reboots are needed, I'm afraid, since even stretching lifespans only works so long when characters have events happen in their lives.
imo
The problem with DC was that each comic and even strip within a comic was pretty much stand-alone. So the Atlantis in Aquaman bore no resemblence to the Atlantis in Superman and so on.
Even when characters crossed over (World's Finest or All Star) quite often a different Atlantis or whatever was created.
With the Silver Age and later DC tried to create a consistant universe but had too much legacy. This was probably the main reason for Crisis on Infinite Earths - to get a single consistant universe. But different editorial teams have continued to protect their properties and the inconsistency has grown back.
Reboots can to some extent solve problems caused by bad editors but what reboots do clear up is the problem of aging heroes (unless you have a relaunch where Batman has still had countless Robins while only being a young Bruce Wayne).
The Legion, having started out as kids and not having the dynamic of a 'current' timeframe should not need reboots. It is only the knock on effects of changes to Superman and Supergirl and possibly Mon-El and XS that cause problems for the Legion. DC know this and appear this time around to have at least tried to grasp the nettle.
Posted by Candlelight on :
Yes, Reboot, I was trying to take into account what Kent was saying about sitcoms where the episodes are self contained and used interchangeably.
That is done, but life and scripted events still date the episodes. Lucy's little Ricky was scripted in to coinside with Lucy's real first child, for example, but her second real child wasn't written into the timeline.
I suppose that the relevance to the Legion is when the creative teams add relationships, marriages, children, injuries, resignations, new members, updated tech, etc..
Tech especially, which hit the Star Trek series, for example. That's super important to the Legion, which is why Levitz changed parts of the origin continuity this time, even though he was trying to keep most of the original boot storylines and characters.
Posted by Candlelight on :
Silver Age Lad - I agree, but in the earlier days, weren't most of the characters 'owned' by their creators? We know that Superman and Wonder Woman were and are, anyway. I know that family ownership was why Diana and Bruce couldn't appear on Smallville, IIRC. And I think I've read in some interview or something, that that's why there won't be any Superman, WW or Batman descendants in the Legion this time around, no Laurel Kent or Kent Shakespeare.
I also think that in the precomputer/internet days it would have been very difficult to keep different creative teams and stories aligned. Look how Wonder Girl was taken literally by the Teen Titans creators/editors and it was only discovered later that she didn't even exist in their timeline since she was Wonder Woman at the time. I think the problem was the medium itself, more than DC not caring or trying. Posted by gone on :
*poof*
[ March 29, 2012, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: Lucy's little Ricky was scripted in to coinside with Lucy's real first child, for example, but her second real child wasn't written into the timeline.
Actually, Little Ricky was born when Desi, Jr. was born. Lucy was pregnant with their first child (Lucy, Jr.) when they filmed the pilot, and she was born before the show's first season.
Sorry for the digression.
Posted by Anita Cocktail on :
This thread is simply wonderful! Such attention to detail! Salut!
Posted by gone on :
*poof*
[ March 29, 2012, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: gone ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
So, anyone want to write up a new "order of membership"?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: So, anyone want to write up a new "order of membership"?
It's not just the order but also how. Jo for instance couldn't have had the same initiation test.
Posted by Anita Cocktail on :
quote:Originally posted by gone: *poof*
Ha! Ha! Darling, you're such a Silly Sandy!
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: So, anyone want to write up a new "order of membership"?
1-3 Cosmic Boy/Lightning Lad/Saturn Girl
4 Triplicate Girl
5 Phantom Girl
6-8 Chameleon Boy/Colossal Boy/Invisible Kid
9 Ultra Boy
10 Brainiac 5
11 young Superman/Superboy?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the reference to Lydda and Rokk holding hands in Adventure #9, and Sorcerer's World being back in Legion of Three Worlds (from this thread .)
[ April 15, 2012, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Ken Arromdee ]
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added reference to Validus in #9.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the erasure of the Fatal Five from history.
Honestly, I can't imagine any change to history short of getting rid of Superboy (or making a fundamental change to the premise) that would screw up history more than this. Before this, the biggest change for the New 52 was having new costumes in the Adventure era.
Posted by the Hermit on :
Yeah, retconning the five out of existence is just plain bad decision making.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Changes to other Legion versions (non-retcon, retcon, or mistake)
L3W: Current Earth Brainiac 5 transforms threeboot Lightning Lad's body into a Garth body.
L3W: Shikari returns to her Legion, fixes dangler from the start of the Threeboot. Misspelled as "Shakari".
Great work, Ken. It's amazing how much detail you put into this. Just a few corrections - Threeboot Element Lad was also killed by Superboy-Prime during this story.
It was Postboot Live Wire's body that was transformed into a Garth body.
And Shikari had been shown returning to her Legion in Infinite Crisis 6. Inexplicably, they were shown on Earth-247, which was apparently the Postboot Legion's Earth. The assumption is they were lost AGAIN in the timestream/void after that.
Posted by Invisible Brainiac on :
Intentional retcon (during V6) Adventure #516: The Legion tried to get Superman, not Superboy; getting Superboy was a mistake (revealed to be intentional on Brainy's part in #519). It occurs to me that this makes sense because Superboy isn't a superhero in the present, so he's not in the history books and the Legion and Brande wouldn't intentionally recruit him.
- re this part, would this also mean that the current Legion never had a maximum age limit for new members?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
^^It's an interesting problem.
Once you take out Superman's career as Superboy, you lose the whole "Hey, Superman started as a teen, so we can be super-heroes, too!" aspect of the Legion's origin. It makes more sense for them to be inspired by the Teen Titans or someone at that point, but then why go back and recruit Kal-El rather than, say, Kon-El?
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Added the above corrections and of course Timber Wolf getting a new origin.
Posted by Mykey3000 on :
As a historian its driving me nuts that I can't find the Facebook posts by Levitz regarding continuity... Did anyone save the text, and if so could you post it?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: [QB] Paul has said (on Facebook) that this timeline is not in continuity.[/COLOR] This particularly means it's not evidence for Conspiracy happening, or Shadow Lass marrying and divorcing, along with some other items like the Legion being inspired by Superboy (not true in current continuity) and the Great Darkness happening before Yera was disguised as Violet.
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Question: Is Phantom Girl having a crush on Brainiac 5 anywhere in the original series? (I recall that Shadow Lass did.)
Posted by the Hermit on :
I keep hoping that one day I'll open up an issue of, say, Action Comics and Daily Star editor Clark Kent will be sitting up in bed telling his wife Lois that he just had the weirdest dream that started with the skies turning red...
Posted by Mykey3000 on :
Oooh thanks for the link! Are there more such sources, as you note in your list, from Facebook on here somewhere? I want to add those notes and keep updating my chronology (http://www.cosmicteams.com/legion/legion1/intro.html)
Posted by Ken Arromdee on :
Mykey3000: Reading your chronology: -- I checked All-New Collector's Edition C-55. The comic does *not* list the Legionnaires in order of joining. It lists the founders as joining first, and Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl as next to join--and then for subsequent members it doesn't say they joined "next" or otherwise indicate that they are being listed in order. It shows Superboy and Supergirl in the same panel, and I am unaware that under any theory of joining they are considered to have joined at the same time. -- I disagree with the idea that the pocket universe happened. There is no evidence for this--and you yourself go on to list all the things that happened because of it that are obviously not part of current continuity. We haven't even seen a Superboy statue in the dead Legionnaires. The only evidence, as far as I know, that the pocket universe story happened is that Paul Levitz has said, outside the comic, that Mon-El and Shadow Lass are divorced. Everything else points to it having not happened. (Also, the original Emerald Empress is still dead, contrary to what you claim, although I wouldn't say that is directly a result of Conspiracy.)
Posted by Mykey3000 on :
Hi, Ken,
I'm struggling with the DCnU chronology but am starting to separate continuity again. Sometimes I choose to wait things out before putting my time into writing/editing.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
I basically say that Post Flashpoint LSH started when Paul took over because 1) he mentions it in his first comic 2) the history is way different from the orignal run. ie Legion: Secret Origin.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Added Legion #0 changes.
Question: Is Phantom Girl having a crush on Brainiac 5 anywhere in the original series? (I recall that Shadow Lass did.)
I don't recall any of the legionnaires being really that into each other outside of Star Boy and Dream Girl and Garth and Imra and PG and Ultra Boy.
Oh yeah Brainy and Kara...Tinya would have been bumping heads against that!!!!
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: I basically say that Post Flashpoint LSH started when Paul took over because 1) he mentions it in his first comic 2) the history is way different from the orignal run. ie Legion: Secret Origin.
This also explains inconsistencies like the Empress and Tharok being alive during Lo3W.
But the flashback Adventure issues have to be considered pre-Flashpoint
Posted by Leather Wolf on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl:
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Added Legion #0 changes.
Question: Is Phantom Girl having a crush on Brainiac 5 anywhere in the original series? (I recall that Shadow Lass did.)
I don't recall any of the legionnaires being really that into each other outside of Star Boy and Dream Girl and Garth and Imra and PG and Ultra Boy.
Oh yeah Brainy and Kara...Tinya would have been bumping heads against that!!!!
Don't forget Bouncing Boy and Duel Damsel!
It would be interesting if the New 52 Supergirl will ever get to hook up with Brainy again? She is the only 21st century hero that I wish would crossover into the new 31st century and rejoin the Legion.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
quote:Originally posted by Leather Wolf:
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl:
quote:Originally posted by Ken Arromdee: Added Legion #0 changes.
Question: Is Phantom Girl having a crush on Brainiac 5 anywhere in the original series? (I recall that Shadow Lass did.)
I don't recall any of the legionnaires being really that into each other outside of Star Boy and Dream Girl and Garth and Imra and PG and Ultra Boy.
Oh yeah Brainy and Kara...Tinya would have been bumping heads against that!!!!
Don't forget Bouncing Boy and Duel Damsel!
It would be interesting if the New 52 Supergirl will ever get to hook up with Brainy again? She is the only 21st century hero that I wish would crossover into the new 31st century and rejoin the Legion.
yeah but were Lu and Chuck a thing b4 Superboy and the legion 200??
Posted by the Hermit on :
The Chuck and Lu romance got started during the Legion's last Adventure appearance (#380 The Legion's Space Odyssey). Lu was depressed over the supposed death of Superboy and confided in Chuck about her crush on Kal-El and how she felt she just didn't measure up to his standards. Chuck disagreed, telling her she brought class to the Legion, just as he himself brought comic relief/morale. One of Shooter's best character moments, imo.
![[Yes]](graemlins/nod.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But FWIW, after reviewing the Baptism issue:![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Action864
Legion of Three Worlds ![[Respect]](graemlins/respect.gif)
![[shrug]](graemlins/shrug.gif)
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