I don't own the issue yet. But, I want to have each ADVENTURE COMICS issue have it's own thread.
Spoilers below come from the mothership. We used to be cool like them.
S P O I L E R S ! ! ! !
quote:Originally posted by jsaman: He's back - My favorite Legionaire of all time:
Tellus!
In the back-up feature, Star Boy ends up at a swamp - and up rises the alien telepath/telekinetic. Now why he's been staying in a swamp when he prefers a methane ocean is beyond me. Johns doesn't explain what Tellus has been doing in this time period or why he didn't appear in that earlier Lightning Saga nonsense. Tellus tries to help Thom with his schizophrenia - and what follows is a blast of clues about the next coming catastrophe. One of the very best things Paul Levitz did on his run of Legion was open up the Legion ranks to members who were truly alien looking. It just made no sense that a galazy as far and as wide as the Legion's would contain nothing but attractive humanoids with mere color differentiations. And I really liked his take on Tellus - he was a kind, old soul tentatively exploring his own powers and the universe itself. (Gifften's run turned him into a sour political xenophobe, and I prefer not to think of that.) Tellus was a noticeable no-show in the Legion of 93 Worlds mini, although there was that aside in the last issue at least noting his absence. I hope we'll see more of him. And where the heck is Quislet?
quote:Originally posted by cdebanks74: I liked the snippets at the end of the issue. Looks like Element Lad is disguised as Superboy's chemistry teacher in Smallville. Superboy is coming in to rescue Dream Girl. I'm curious to see what the complication from Blok's healed injuries is. Most of all, I want to see who the Green Lantern Legionnaire is. I'm wondering if this could be Rond's son.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Oh God why did it have to be EIGHT FRIKKING PAGES?! I can't wait a month! I'm hooked baby!!
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
The cover: Covers don't usually hold up to their high-res bright internet image but this one was magnificent.
Spoilers
The Legion part left me cold. It wasn't Legion. It wasn't Thom. Why was everyone so angry in the double page splash. For that matter, why did they even waste story space on it. They inducted a GL, big whoop. A small part of the fan base's request granted. Art is blah. Tellus in a swamp was kind of funny.
The Conner part. As much as I really, really didn't want to like this, I did. 2 pages devoted to a girl falling off a bridge and another been there done that full page splash of a hero, wait for it....flying (boring), don't need. However...
some of Manapuls art in this issue crossed over into ART. The double page sunset, that's gallery stuff there. Krypto's save! You go dog! Tellus' (I'm guessing) appearance, pure gold.
5/5 Cloneboy Does the Dishes 0/5 Long Live Bowling. Get on with the story.
Overall, a three issue tryout.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I love the art especially Francis, but I've never read such a blantent, filler issue in my life. The entire issue including the 7! page "Legion" backup should have been 5...6 pages tops!
Totally disappointed. Not to mention that Tellus hates water. Beautiful, but pathetic.
Legion gets no respect... you'd think that in the debut issue they would be careful not to mix up Shadow Lass with Night Girl... but THEY DID!
Plus... in my copy... the explanation boxes of who everyone is, what their power is and their home planets... are very blurry... not a great help to new readers.
Too bad... because I liked the itty bitty story more than I thought I would... Tellus as Swamp Thing was great... and the future teasers look promising.
Thom bowling... not so much.
Posted by rtvu2 on :
I liked the issue, The Superboy part was great. Just a great slow build to a nice little surprise.
I liked the Legion backup. The backups have to do alot and I liked what happened and I liked The Legion backup- even if Mon-el was missing from the double page spread and they missed label Night Girl and Shadow Lass.
Posted by googoomuck on :
FWIW it looks like both features are part of the same plot line.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Most of the teasers look interesting with one big exception but that's not why I buy a comic book. Making me pay for their advertising? That's not appreciated.
The one teaser I'm not looking forward to... they're not about to pull a reverse sneckie on Blok are they?
Posted by Jerry on :
The Night Girl and Shadow Lass mix up was just a huge mistake. How embarrassing !!
I enjoyed the Superboy story. He has come a long way, as a character, from the leather jacket wearing smart mouth that we once knew. He is much more likable. Manapul's work is gorgeous.
The Legion back up left me frustrated. The most difficult part of being a Legion fan has become "the wait". We're always waiting for answers that never seem to come. Plot threads take years to resolve. Creative teams get the boot. Series get canceled. Versions of the team get whited out. We always end up with more questions than answers.
This issue gives us tons of new questions, hints, teases, and mysteries. How many months will it take to get the answers with only eight pages per month? I hate to be a pessimist, but it just feels like we are being set up for disappointment again.
[ August 13, 2009, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
Nightcrawler:
quote:Not to mention that Tellus hates water.
I know he prefers his methane ocean, but in the absence of such, I thought he still does prefer a liquid water environment to open air.
Posted by Ricardo on :
Believe it or not, I liked this issue. But for very different reasons:
1) I can't praise Francis Manapul's art enough. I still hate Superboy Conner, but his style makes him a bit more bearable. And Johns is really soft here, which is kind of surprising. 2) I liked the transition of the Legion story focused on Starman. I don't have any hopes that they would kick Legion into high gears, but it kind of paved the way the new writer will be taking from now on. It was NOT written for Legion fans, but for Superman and JSA readers. And I am cool with that. 3) Tellus showing up prominently on the first story means that Adventure Comics will definitely be a Superboy & The Legion of Super Heroes book most of the times, but not all the time. 4) This continuous crossing-over is reinforced when we see the famous Johns preview page featuring Legion artwork by Manapul. 5) From the looks of that preview, the next "Blackest Night" will be a Superman x Legion of Super-Heroes book. That's my reading of the 2010 big event.
All in all, there's more Legion here than I expected from the beginning - which is not bad at all. I will forever be the guy who wanted Shooter back on the book, or some mature-reader take on LSH (Elseworlds or something like that), but this might be the best way to get the Legion back on top form.
I still don't like the "de-aging" process they seem to have had and I still can't figure out what was Johns criteria for the current team/period. But let's keep moving on.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller:
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Not to mention that Tellus hates water.
I know he prefers his methane ocean, but in the absence of such, I thought he still does prefer a liquid water environment to open air.
That's probably true, that he prefers it to air.
But we know anyway, that he will endure water if he needs to. He must have thought he needed to.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Well, swamp gas can contain a lot of methane, which is probably why he went there.
I don't have the actual issue yet, but these pages and the hint of things to come look good.
Posted by rouge on :
I think he's in the swamp, because where the heck else is he going to hide out in Smallville?
So, Jan and Tellus are keeping an eye on things/shaping them in Smallville for some reason, and Conner's getting his Lex on in secret. not a bad set up issue. I would have liked more from the backup as well, but it seemed to be a good flow through from Superman and JSA into this book. As long as the plot picks up in short order, I'm happy with it.
Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
I loved both artists.
I've never been a huge Superman fan but I always liked Kon-El. I was worried about him following in Superman's steps and didn't want a mirror image of big blue. While I enjoyed the 1st story I was worried about him being a smaller Superman...until the last page. Still I rather see him have a diary of what Connor is going to do. While I like what Geoff has done with him and Bart...I think they both have lost their edge.
Legion back up story? It was a bit short..Starman bowling? Cute but I've had enough of that in the JSA. The chemistry teacher is one of my faves so can't wait for that! The GL Legionnaire..could have a ring on each hand! My guess? Celeste Rockfish! I'm worried about Blok. Nice to see Tellus and get a Quislet mention!!!
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
The Superboy part...okay. Nice art, okay story. Yes, we got a nice little surprise at the end, but I don't get a real danger vibe off it.
The Legion- Man, I wanted this to be so much..more. Night Girl? What, did they combine the the two in this version? And whomever said that the boxes were so blurry you can't read them was right. If a charcter was "deeper" in the shot than T-Wolf, I have no idea what was in their character box.
And, I know that he's the legions Deux Ex Machina, that he's the exposition hound for the writers, but could we please for the lovva god NOT HAVE BRAINY IN EVERY FREAKIN STORYLINE?! There are other, intelligent legionaires out there. It was Superboy and the Legion, NOT BRAINY'S Legion.
The art for the legion story was fine. No problems with it.
Look, I know that however they did it, whether it be the gentle kick off like they used or a Wild Wild West style start on chapter seven and fill in as you go while fighting, they would catch flak. Some would say "It was too much, they should have started slower." or "It was too slow, they should have started faster". They were in a no win situation on that score. But, after the debacle that was legion 50, they had plenty of time to get the small things right. And thats what bites. The book was delayed for the end of LO3W's, a whole lotta time, and they didn't get the small stuff right. They don't care, why should we?
Posted by doublechinner on :
Haven't read it yet -- probably won't until this weekend, but from the comments I'm quite pleased that Legion is woven into the whole book. That tells me that Legion is not JUST relegated to a backup, as they were after their first Adventure run. Instead, it's two parts of the same larger story, and that's cool. Johns's story may not pan out to be that great, but at least there's a plan that features Legion prominently.
On the Tellus thing, I imagine if he's spent that much time on Earth he's had to get used to water. And since he comes from a liquid environment, he's probably a whole lot more comfortable in a buoyant setting.
I think there's a natural and understandable divide in fan reactions to the new situation. If you strongly believe that Legion can and should stand on its own apart from Superman, than the new status quo sucks. If you think the Legion really needs that Superman connection to connect with new fans and ground it, then the new situation is at least tolerable. There are good arguments for both sides, and I don't feel too strongly either way. I lean toward a renewal of the Supes link, since it was so stupidly severed and prevented for so long.
On the "waiting" thing, there's NO doubt that constant reboots and cancellations and creative team changes have made that much worse, but being a Legion fan requires a GREAT deal of patience, because with such a large team it will always take a long time for your favorite character to appear or a subplot to reach fruition. I remember as a kid counting issues until the next appearance of my favorite Legionnaires. Heck, until fandom voted Dream Girl in as leader and Levitz ran with that, I thought we'd never really see Nura again. I remember the same frustrations with X-Men and Teen Titans, both smaller teams but very subplot heavy.
Posted by Blacula on :
I came *this* close to not buying this issue simply because I hate the way Johns writes Kon-el and I didn't think 8 pages of Legion a month was going to justify the price... but I'm really glad I did.
The art in both stories was excellent and I actually even liked Johns' Kon-el characterisation for a change. But this is Legion World so who cares about him? On to their story -
First of all, yes there was a lot more set-up than story here but this is issue #1 so I can forgive it. If we're still reading filler/set-up 3, 4 or 5 issues down the line then I will join you in complaining.
Secondly, the Night Girl/Shadow Lass info-box mix-up was unfortunate but it was obviously just a production error. Let's move on people.
I'm one of those who expressed dislike of Thom's "crazy" ramblings in another thread but I didn't mind it here and y'know what - it made me appreciate that Thom actually has a personality for once? I'd like to see him cured sooner than later but when that's done I hope some of this care-free, happy-go-lucky nature remains - the Legion definitely don't need any more dour, overly serious guys like he (IMO) used to be.
The Tellus pages were fantastic and I am loving his subtle presence all over the Superman books of late. As for the 'Tellus hates water' issue - didn't this book make a point of telling us the water in Lake Bruin was mysteriously becoming more muddy? Maybe that was Tellus' way of making the Lake more habitable?
The 'coming attractions' page was probably my least favourite part of the book though since I would have much rather had some of those revelations come as a surprise (especially the 'Jan as Conner's teacher' one) and it also meant one less page of story but what-the-hey, I can live with it.
[ August 13, 2009, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Blacula ]
Posted by googoomuck on :
Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
Please please No!!!
Superboy is a Titan!
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
Not to be a smart-ass (well, okay, maybe a bit of one, admittedly), but what the heck is a swamp doing in Smallville? Isn't the town supposed to be somewhere in the American midwest, where I believe "swamps" technically don't exist?
More seriously, though, the art and plot teasers seem very enticing from what I've seen on-line here, so I'm literally running out in a few minutes to pick up the issue (I'm especially happy to see that Mr. Manipul is beginning to realize his full potential). Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
I really hope NOT. Conner is a teenager. LSH is adult. It would make no-sense, unless LSH became like JSA and started growing new "teen" members. Which in a sense seemed to be the direction Waid sort of implied for Threeboot.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Mediocre Boy: Not to be a smart-ass (well, okay, maybe a bit of one, admittedly), but what the heck is a swamp doing in Smallville? Isn't the town supposed to be somewhere in the American midwest, where I believe "swamps" technically don't exist?
Actually, it BECAME a swamp, but it used to be a lake. It's explained...
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
[/QB]
quote: Actually, it BECAME a swamp, but it used to be a lake. It's explained... [/QB]
Doh! That's what I get for commenting without having actually read the whole issue yet. I'm glad that they explained the swamp anomoly, though. Thanks for setting me straight, Ricardo.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
I live in Ohio. I live in the Black Swamp. Used to have malaria here, back in the day. Not my day. Way-back day.
Posted by Candle on :
I'm from Michigan and we had a huge 'swampy' area behind our farm, and talk about the mosquitoes!
We called it a marsh, though.
What's the difference between a marsh and a swamp, anyway?
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
When I hear the word swamp, I think of a sub-tropical setting like Florida, myself; I also picture dangerous animals and the unseen presense of tropical diseases.
To me a marsh is a place in a more temperate setting with no dangerous critters or exotic diseases. Then again, here in Canada (in Ottawa, yet) people did die from Dengue Fever while building canals in a relatively temperate setting (cold wintertimes notwithstanding), so maybe the notions of "swemp" and "marsh" are, indeed, just a matter of regional semantics.
Anybody out there know for sure?
Posted by rouge on :
Swamps have trees, marshes do not.
Posted by Askanipsion on :
Well with the Titans books in the toilet, at least I can look forward to the Legion even though they won't get many pages.
Nice to see Starman searching for Nura.
Poor Nura captured again....she was captured in the JLA/JSA crossover too. You would think she would know when she was about to be captured! Hehe
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
doncha luv-it when we get all educational!
Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: doncha luv-it when we get all educational!
Children don't need school: they need more Legion. Or Legion World at any rate. Posted by doublechinner on :
Yeah, lots of swamps/marshes/lagoons/wetlands down here in the Midwest--especially BECAUSE the land is often so flat, the water moves very slowly. Chicago, my home, was described as a "swamp" prior to its settlement, with abundant flora including a stinky wild onion the natives called "chicagou." So there ya go. More edu-macation. Some would argue it's still a swamp, and still smells bad. I've gotten used to it.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I'm a little more accepting with the methane/swamp connection. But, I'm still saying this issue lacked a lot for a first issue.
Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
What a delight to be able to go to the comic book store and get a comic book that I can anticipate every month. And I do eagerly anticipate the next chapter in this story. I'd be fooling myself if I didn't admit that much of my anticipation is because I get to see Element Lad again. And he's a chemistry teacher, not a philosophy or Sunday School teacher, whew!
Seeing the other legionnaires was a treat, too. I wonder if I should take Starboy's conversation with Bird Boy to mean that Quislet is in the past. Plus, I wonder if we've already seen Chameleon Boy--maybe hew was the one guiding Conner to Chemistry class, or in the Despero panel.
If I wanted to complain about anything, which is required for serious message board posts, I'd express my bother that the only black legionnaire wasn't even visible on the splash page--"Look out villains, here come a bunch of white kids!" I hope the Legion rookie has some ethnicity, or is just short or skinny or something other than "of a different hair style/color."
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Holy-! Polar Boy is BLONDE?!
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy: Plus, I wonder if we've already seen Chameleon Boy--maybe hew was the one guiding Conner to Chemistry class, or in the Despero panel.
pencil sharpener
Posted by Candle on :
I can't imagine Desparo saying, "Of course, Mr. Edge."
Sounds a lot more like Cham, to me.
Posted by Mr. Kayak on :
as a legion fan, i'm REALLY pissed off. in the end, we only got 4 mere pages of story! when i saw it i couldn't believe it... sigh. i understand how johns wanted to introduce the legion to potential new readers, but... did he really have to use three of those little eight pages of story? besides, i don't think that splash page was that memorable to justify the waste of space: clayton henry is a skilled artist but still average, and his faces look all the same (compare colossal boy's and brainiac 5's, they're identical!). i repeat, as a legion fan i really felt cheated. i don't care if the superboy story was good, 'cause if it wasn't for the legion i wouldn't even thought to buy this book: i'm really cold about the kon-el character and i hated johns' teen titans book...
a tiny note about the cover: why did the use shooter's legion logo? i think it could be confusing...
another thing. it's pretty clear now that the next big storyline involving the legion will be set in 21st century. i can understand the sheer editorial logic behind that move: to introduce readers of common DCU titles to the legion of super-heroes. nonetheless, i don't think it's a very good idea: that way, i'm afraid the legion will look like just another super-team. instead, i think it would be way better for present-day DCU heroes to travel to the future and let readers see the 31st century through their eyes. batman or the justice league need to go to the future and awe in front of it: i think that would be a more honest and effective publicity for the legion. anyway, the story's just starting so who knows how it will develop!
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
i think what he's doing is building up legion interest from the ground up. It maybe too little for us Experienced readers but for those who weren't into the legion this is a bite size snack they'll become hungry for and then it will be a full sized meal that they look forward too.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
That may be the "plan," but if they don't start plotting things out better and tightening up the stories instead of throwing ideas against the wall to see what sticks, they're going to lose far more than they can gain.
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
not much "meat" in a first issue. Johns is clearly building interest in LSHn in baby steps. i liked the art just fine. Clayton does a nice future gloss, and attractive characters. not many comic artists do individual faces. i'm glad they did a 2 page spread to introduce characters to new readers. can you imagine how it would have felt to not have that? the Night Girl/Shadow Lass mix up did bother me, but it often happens in legion books. too many of'em. it also bothers me ALOT that Timber Wolf's power blurb says "claws". ugh. i thought with this retroboot version they'd stop trying to Wolverine him. bonus points for keeping the rocket ship shaped HQ that waid/kitson re-intro-ed. can't help but want answers to many continuity questions... do Garth/Imra have the twins? are Ayla and Vi gay? why does Chameleon Girl have improved power levels. i liked her better before when "all Durlans are not the same". i think Duplicate Damsel is a dumb name. how about Multi-Girl?
Posted by Superboy on :
I liked the Conner stuff a lot more than I thought I would. Not a fan of Conner really.
The Legion stuff was way too short of course but I did like what I saw in the teaser images. I liked Henry's artwork, except for the two page spread.
Lots of interesting subplots going on with the Legion in the 21st century now and since I love that kind of story I'm game to see it play out.
As for what DC is doing right now...IMO they definitely are rebuilding it from the ground up...more importantly, I don't really think they are trying to cater to Legion fans particularly, or at least not the diehards.
They're trying to build the audience from some of the other successful audiences they have...
A#1. Anything Johns writes.
B#1. The Titans base.
C#1. The Superman base.
#2. The Green Lantern base.
At least based on the books the Legion is appearing in now.
I think they pretty much realize that unless they pull new readers in the title is not going to be in publication as a regular title any longer...
Actually it already isn't.
Because they already know what it will do..
Launch at somewhere between 50-60k, be struggling to stay above 30k after a year, be down in the mid 20's and dropping and on life support after 3-4 years. Then poof, another relaunch or reboot. And it's not really because of the writing either. The book has had good writing and still sold quite poorly.
The Legion doesn't sell @25 k because it keeps getting rebooted, it keeps getting rebooted because it sells at @25k. Unless they expand their audience that isn't going to change any time soon.
As for the 21st century stuff...
I'm just thinking there's been stuff being teased with Brainiac 5 in Booster Gold for a few years now, since well before Jurgens was writing the title and Johns was still the main writer. That stuff is still being hinted at and I'm wondering if that is going to eventually tie in to the rest of the Legion in the 21st century.
Ditto the stuff with Dream Girl which goes all the way back to the LS arc. Even later on additions like Tellus and Cham etc.
And was that Mon-El shown with Conner in the teaser page at the end?
And I'm wondering if the Legion being in the 21st century has something to do with New Krypton as well...expecially considering Didio made some comments a while back about New Krypton rising to become an interstellar power....wouldn't be the first time the Legion has been involved in a war between Krypton(or a surviving variation of it) and Earth.
[ August 14, 2009, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
One other thing...reading this issue didn't exactly feel like reading an Adventure Legion story...but the tone and format are very similar to the Superboy series of the early 70's.
You get the simple, almost homey Superboy story at the beginning and then all the futuristic Legion stuff in the backup. It's exactly like that old Superboy series....except no one doing this title has Cockrum's genius for redesigning costumes(and pretty much ushering in an entirely new era of comics at both companies with them).
Dave Cockrum was a huge part of the reason the Legion made it out of backup status back then...
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
I really hope NOT. Conner is a teenager. LSH is adult. It would make no-sense, unless LSH became like JSA and started growing new "teen" members. Which in a sense seemed to be the direction Waid sort of implied for Threeboot.
I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion really...since there have been teenagers as part of the roster of adult Legions. Magnetic Kid was added to the Levitz Legion and even the 5YG had characters like Kono...And I'm not sold that the current Johns Legion is supposed to be particularly old either.
While it's been years since the Crisis for Superman, it's only been a few months since the Criis for this version of the Legion. As mentioned in the LS and the Action arc.
In the LS they said it had been 6 months since the Crisis and at the beginning of the Action of arc they said it had been a few months since the Lightning Saga.
I figure this version of the Legion the oldest members are probably 25-28 or so or about the same age as the oldest members of the Teen Titans.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
If tying a concept to every other concept including the "popular" ones was a better way to get readers in the long-haul then there would be several series (JLA, Titans, etc.) pushing higher numbers than they actually do.
In fact, if this was the policy that DC was actively pursuing for the Legion or any book/series for that matter than they'd all be named BATMAN AND THE ______!
This is all just a bunch of filler crap that the editors are letting their hot writers of the day, Johns and Robinson, indulge themselves in until the next someone stumbles upon the next big thing.
Any Comic Book series that really matters and that builds a big and lasting audience need great writing and great (or at least interesting stylistic) art to reach word-of-mouth and casual buyers. Filler issues and confusing continuity (even for the Fans of a series) isn't going to help anyone especially the Legion.
Posted by Candle on :
A new Batman and the Legion of Super-Heroes would be kind cool.
Dick Grayson is Titan and Legion age. Night Girl, Shady, T Wolf, Tinya and Cham would fit in easily with just a little redesigning, as would Tellus, Starman, ELad and Dreamy.
Maybe they could call it 'Batman and the LSH Espionage Squad'.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: i think what he's doing is building up legion interest from the ground up. It maybe too little for us Experienced readers but for those who weren't into the legion this is a bite size snack they'll become hungry for and then it will be a full sized meal that they look forward too.
I agree with this.
More...I think they approach they are taking, and what Johns does typically to great success, is look at what worked for the Legion when it was successful and a flagship of the DC Universe. They are looking at it from a comics audience standpoint rather than a Legion fan standpoint.
The biggest problems with all the fixes since it was broken, aside from DC editorial policy which is the main culprit of course, is that they've had these huge Legion fans writing the book that kept getting their Legion fandom in the way of their writing instincts.
It's been...
Look, Mon-El is Superboy now and a focus of the book, think of all the years we've wanted to see this.
Look, Element Lad is gay(without actually being written as being gay) think of how long this has been wondered about.
That's what they did in the 5YG.
Look, it's the Legion from the very beginning before Superboy was a member that we always wanted to see more of.
That's what they did in the reboot.
Look, it's the Legion starting in progress(just like the original), only still before Superboy joined with that mysterious unchronicled early era still intact, and look, here's that Supergirl era we never got see before.
That's what they did in the 3boot.
Always with just enough needless tweaks to say it's new...while simulataneously acting as if LL, SG and CB saving RJ Brande is some hallowed Legion element and the foundation of it all...instead of the uneventful retcon/untold tale written a decade into the Legion's existence that it actually was.
Not an important element to what made the Legion work, in any era, and neither were any of those other unexplored eras and unanswered questions they've tried to focus on in the reboots. Matter of fact, those eras being unexplored and those questions being unanswered were part of the Legion's mystique. I got excited about them as any Legion fan would...but it's not what made the series go, ever.
That's my take on what they've tried to do anyway...they were given the task of launching a Supermanless Legion(not their fault) and to compensate they tried to launch or build the book around things that were important in Legion circles, and it just didn't do anything to capture the casual fan.
Johns not only doesn't have that handicap with Superman, he is definitely not a Legion fan of the same order as TMK or Mark Waid, and I think his sense of what makes it appeal to the casual fan is the best of any writer to touch the book in decades...he's good at doing that with all characters and teams, it's his strenght as a writer(and he obviously has strengths as a writer).
I think his approach is: colorful characters from the future, Superman(boy), space, time travel, mystique.
And every truly successful commercial era of the Legion has featured those things in abundance.
I'm enjoying it and I'm interested. If this Legion fails it won't be for the same reasons as all the other reboots have.
[ August 14, 2009, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Don't know if its been mentioned, haven't read the entire thread, but am I the only one thinking that the Valentine monster in the lake is Tellus from the backup?
It was okay. Geoff sex up a Lex Luthor for Conner in Valentine, with Tellus saying that valentine would be his greatest enemy. He gave us the "lies to superman" thing. But i don't get anything evil off it, more of a wanting to understand the other parent, his "second father".
Didn't catch the girl on the bridges name, but is this Conner's Lana Lang?
Geoff packed a lot in, no doubt. But the Legion artist was really good, a better fit than Manapul I thought. At one point Manapul's art made superboy look like he was drawn by John Romita Jr. and I never really cared for his art.
Solid c+ on the Superboy stuff.
Solid B- on the legion.
And with what happened with 50, there was really no excuse for the mixup on the boxes for night girl and shadow lass.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
by the way, swamps around my home are full of methane gas. Its one of the "swamp gases" that scientists us to explain wierd lights in the swamp at night.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: If tying a concept to every other concept including the "popular" ones was a better way to get readers in the long-haul then there would be several series (JLA, Titans, etc.) pushing higher numbers than they actually do.
Of course. Comics companies try this all the time to no success. Just slapping them together mindlessly doesn't usually payoff.
That said, the Legion hasn't ever been quite like any other comic property in it's appeal. And it was very much a part of the Superman family at it's peak. The most successful part of the Superman family outside of Superman.
What is obvious to me is that a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime is a tough sell....even if it's got great writing and art.
The Legion has had great writing and art...that really hasn't been the problem. If anything the roster of writers and artists in the past 20 years is more impressive than the roster of the original Legion.
quote: In fact, if this was the policy that DC was actively pursuing for the Legion or any book/series for that matter than they'd all be named BATMAN AND THE ______!
They do that all the time, but throwing Batman a thousand years in the future doesn't really do much for Batman and what he's about. His arena is crime, not space and science fiction.
To me it's if it makes any sense or not. It makes sense to tie Green Lantern to the Legion, it doesn't make sense for them not to have any connection since they occupy the same Universe.
quote: This is all just a bunch of filler crap that the editors are letting their hot writers of the day, Johns and Robinson, indulge themselves in until the next someone stumbles upon the next big thing.
I guess it just depends on if you're a fan of those writers or not. I don't consider either of them to be hacks. I consider Johns to have a full plate and Robinson to be submerged in the Superman continuity right now, but it's not like Robinson doesn't give a damn about Mon-El. He's pretty much the major character his writing career revolves around right now.
quote: Any Comic Book series that really matters and that builds a big and lasting audience need great writing and great (or at least interesting stylistic) art to reach word-of-mouth and casual buyers.
And the Legion has had those things in abundance over the past 2 decades, and hasn't been as successful as it was in the previous two decades when it really didn't have those things in abundance.
quote: Filler issues and confusing continuity (even for the Fans of a series) isn't going to help anyone especially the Legion. [/QB]
I'm as pissed about having to read 60 pages of Conner to get 5 pages of Legion as you are...but I don't think any of what they are setting up is confusing(at least not when compared to the continuity after the Crisis) and I'm definitely interested in it.
I think Johns has a clear track record of setting things up years in advance and I think he is a DC fan to the absolute core that generally puts his heart into his work. I see absolutely nothing in his history to indicate he doesn't take this approach or that he is just haphazardly throwing stuff together.
I think how this all came about is Brad Meltzler brought this Legion back on a lark and DC saw exactly what potential it had and then it became Johns' baby...and what we see is Johns working around some of the stuff set up by Meltzler in the LS arc, the Superman litigation, and a ground up rebuild designed to attract new readers.
I mean, there's no threat we as a fanbase can make to DC...they've already said goodbye in many ways. I mean what is there to do? Not buy the Legion comic?
There isn't one.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about how great the writing has been the past few years.
Even though I've liked a story here and there the overall writing has been a meandering mess since Levitz left (regardless of the creator's "names"). And even Levitz' last few years on the series weren't that good. Most of the stories were boring or unoriginal or fixed/created a new continuity disaster if/when they ended.
Most of the stories have been about screwing things up more than about "a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime."
Which would actually be a kick-ass series if anybody wanted to produce one again. Which DC apparently does not.
I tend to think if DC tried to do a comic about teen super-heroes in the future and actually had plots that ended with memorable storylines and well-written characters it would sell.
Posted by The Man From Cargg on :
I don't know why but I have a good feeling about the possibilities for this Legion... partly because this first appearance, though small, was interwoven with the the main feature somewhat. I had expected a disjointed, separate story which would have left Connor fans scratching their heads as to why they were reading about the Legion.
Maybe because it's the original Legion... the one I got hooked on and it had echoes of one of their best adventures... the Mordru in Smallville two-parter.
Mr. Janson is the new Bob Cobb!
All in all it was handled more smoothly than I expected which gives me some hope.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo:
quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
I really hope NOT. Conner is a teenager. LSH is adult. It would make no-sense, unless LSH became like JSA and started growing new "teen" members. Which in a sense seemed to be the direction Waid sort of implied for Threeboot.
I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion really...since there have been teenagers as part of the roster of adult Legions. Magnetic Kid was added to the Levitz Legion and even the 5YG had characters like Kono...And I'm not sold that the current Johns Legion is supposed to be particularly old either.
While it's been years since the Crisis for Superman, it's only been a few months since the Criis for this version of the Legion. As mentioned in the LS and the Action arc.
In the LS they said it had been 6 months since the Crisis and at the beginning of the Action of arc they said it had been a few months since the Lightning Saga.
I figure this version of the Legion the oldest members are probably 25-28 or so or about the same age as the oldest members of the Teen Titans.
My point is Superboy CANNOT be the leader in a LSH team clearly more mature than he will ever be. He would be at most a trainee into the team, much like Kono, Magnectic Kid etc.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
He can be like a pet or something, snicker.
Posted by Ricardo on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: He can be like a pet or something, snicker.
Conner would make a nice snake. Supersnake. I'd see him interacting more with Krypto that way.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
They already have a Super Snake. He's called Hissy.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: My point is Superboy CANNOT be the leader in a LSH team clearly more mature than he will ever be. He would be at most a trainee into the team, much like Kono, Magnectic Kid etc.
Ok well since I'm not much of a Conner fan I'm inclined to agree with you on that...however truthfully it's not really accurate, not in comcics or even in the real world....for instance, Alexander the Great was 19 years old when he conquered the world.
Leadership isn't automatically defined by age. Being older doesn't automatically make someone a leader anymore than being younger automatically makes them a novice.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about how great the writing has been the past few years.
Even though I've liked a story here and there the overall writing has been a meandering mess since Levitz left (regardless of the creator's "names"). And even Levitz' last few years on the series weren't that good. Most of the stories were boring or unoriginal or fixed/created a new continuity disaster if/when they ended.
Most of the stories have been about screwing things up more than about "a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime."
Which would actually be a kick-ass series if anybody wanted to produce one again. Which DC apparently does not.
I tend to think if DC tried to do a comic about teen super-heroes in the future and actually had plots that ended with memorable storylines and well-written characters it would sell.
NC, we've had pretty much everyone short of Alan Moore or Frank Miller attempt to do this book, in some cases they were extremely knowledgable of the Legion's history and I can't really say the construction of the stories was the problem.
I mean the continuity fixes were done to appease the readership not because that was what the writers particularly wanted to focus on.
And they were rebooted and cast aside because they were basically commercial failures that didn't attract new readers in significant numbers, at least compared to past versions of the Legion.
As for the fighting crime in future...no, it won't sell in substantial numbers, because it's a generic non-unique concept in a fringe genre. Good writing doesn't always sell, especially when it's genre is largely a fringe genre.
There are basically 3 sci fi properties set in the future that have had extended success, and all of them were basically unique at the time of their creation...all had a central character they revolved around...all had a multiple casts and spnioffs that rode the success of the original to moderate success, but in no way truly matched the extended success of the original iconic version...
And more importantly, the primary target of all of them initially were children just entering their teen years or perhaps a little younger....not adults. They became more adult properties as their base grew old with them...but their initial appeal to adult or more sophisticated audiences, it was never the reason for their success.
And more importantly, the spinoffs or secondary casts were arguably more talented, better written and conceptualized, and more sophisticated than he originals...but they never matched the success of the originals due to the fact that they lacked the central memorable character and they weren't unique as the originals were.
Those properties are the Legion, Star Trek and Star Wars....and you could even argue it was the same generation of fans that iconized them all...but without a doubt what sets them apart from the countless other attempts at similar concepts and even their own offshoots, was that they were unique(at least in a space future setting) upon their initial creation, and they all had a memorable character(Spock, Darth Vader and Superman) as a cornerstone of the property.
Good writing isn't enough...it's the concept, it's being unique when originally debuted and it's having a memorable central character...at least when you are talking futuristic science fiction.
The past versions of the Legion in recent memory have lacked both of those things and IMO, that is why they failed, not the writing or the art.
The Legion had it's Star Trek the Next Generation equivalent...it was the Reboot. That wasn't enough for DC(nor was TNG enough for Paramount).
JMO.
I don't think die hard Legion fans really underwstand how unique they are in what appeals to them...not only the fanbase, but the unquestionable Legion Fans that have been writing the book since...oh, Paul Levitz. I applaued your sci-fi purism and that of the other Legion fans...I just don't think there's ever going to be enough of you to support a property on writing alone..at least not with the more commercially successful specter of the original forever looming overhead.
[ August 15, 2009, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy: There are basically 3 sci fi properties set in the future ...
Those properties are the Legion, Star Trek and Star Wars....
Ahem...
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..." Posted by Nightcrawler on :
Like I said, agree to disagree. Most of your points have nothing to do with the argument at hand anyway...
Johnsboot will fail like the rest of them because its derivative of the continuity-altering crap storytelling (as opposed to continuity-enhanced which the fans that are all the rage to bash are asking for) we've been subjected to for decades rather than telling good stories about a great group of characters. Oh, and they have no clue as to what they are doing with this "franchise" other than let Johns and Robinson have a go at them. JMO.
(When did Alan Moore and Frank Miller [a good writer?!?] write a Legion series?) My bad, thanks Rick.
[ August 15, 2009, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
They didn't, he said everyone SHORT of. I think both of you make both good and bad points. He misses one thing, of those three franchises, each was from a time when things were more...I guess male is the best way to say it. Star Trek used brawn as well as brains, but by the time next generation came along, it was a much more genteel show. Kirk got alien booty, Picard sipped early grey tea. The second generation seemed to be much more phoney "intellectual". I think a lot of comics suffer from that now adays, believe it or not. I hear folks complain about a slugfest issue, look at it and think "wha?" Legion walked that line successfully for years and then veered over into the next generation style.
Legion needs to go back to being smart, but kicking ass as well. In the last few years, a lot of the time was spent talking instead of acting.
Legion needs more action. Lo3W's was a nice start, more needed.
Posted by Portfolio Boy on :
Not nearly as big as the Night Girl/Shadow Lass snafu, but I notice XS is now from Earth. Is there no Aarok in the Earth-0 universe?
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Didn't they say she was from Earth-0 in Lo3W? I guess that means they consider her mother's home planet her homeworld.
Posted by Jerry on :
I think it follows the retro change to the origin of XS and Impulse from Legion of Three Worlds. XS and Bart were born on Earth-0. When their parents, the Tornado Twins, became targets of Professor Zoom, the Legions hid the entire Flash family on Earth 247. The Tornado Twins died soon after. It was never spelled out specifically, but I think we can assume that XS still went to Aarok with her father, after Dawn Allen's death, and was raised there. The missing link, I guess, is that her father originally went back to Aarok because it was his home world. Maybe he was raised on a Universe-0 version of Aarok? Or maybe he was originally from the 247 universe and somehow traveled to the Universe-0 Earth before Professor Zoom's attack?
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
That's about as same as the problem as, if Impulse and his mother are from Earth-0 and went to Earth-247, what is her exact relationship to President Thawne.
Posted by Candle on :
As I've said before, STNG lasted for at least 7 seasons and centered around at least one other unforgettable character, DATA. The ST franchise was totally reborn with Generation and the spinoffs weren't from the original but from Next Generation and Deep Space 9 was very successful.
I only want to point that out because I don't think that SciFi fans are limited to 'original' ideas only.
It seems to me that there are other popular movie and TV scifi besides the 3 you mentioned, too, including Doctor Who, Farscape and Star Gate.
Books are a whole other 'story' really, because they don't cost so much money to produce.
There are hundreds of characters and worlds that I have explored over the years, usually as series, so many, really.
And comics are books, after all.
Posted by Candle on :
Sorry, I started that reply a page away!
And STNG was only 'genteel phony' for most of the first season. After that, they kicked a lot of bottoms.
And frankly, the Legion didn't do much butt kicking, originally. The reboot and 3boot kicked boodie much more, I think.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: [QB] Johnsboot will fail like the rest of them because its derivative of the continuity-altering crap storytelling (as opposed to continuity-enhanced which the fans that are all the rage to bash are asking for) we've been subjected to for decades rather than telling good stories about a great group of characters. Oh, and they have no clue as to what they are doing with this "franchise" other than let Johns and Robinson have a go at them. JMO.
I think what they are doing with the Legion first and foremost is putting Superman back in it and producing a Legion that bears as much resemblance to the iconic version of the Legion as is humanly possible given the current status of the DC Uni.
I don't think they have tried to do that in other boots, or at least both hands weren't working together.
And given Johns' track record of success I don't see why it's bad idea to let him run with it anyway even if that is what they are doing. He's brought Green Lantern and the JSA back...in fact IMO he's made them better than ever before...and that was a near impossiblity with the JSA given that it's continuity was destroyed basically as badly as the Legion's was.
It seems to me that Johns did exactly what you are saying the Legion needs in his stint on the JSA anyway. He didn't turn it back into the Earth 2 JSA....and he fixed it and made it a cornerstone for DC without massive rebooting.
The reason he has been able to do that is because he seems to be very good at distilling what worked when it worked, and IMO, he's doing exactly that now....
Except for the hideous costume redesigns.
Since you don't consider the writing to be very good over the past two decades, who do you think should write it? Its been primarily extreme Legion fans and or writers who at one point were A-list writers writing it....I don't see any hacks in the group really.
I can think of countless titles that have great writing and are still thoroughly unsuccessful in today's market. Matter of fact, titles that are built upon good writing and little else are pretty much the first casualty in today's market.
It takes more than just great writing, it takes more than just good characters...
It takes good characters, good writing, name recognition...sure there are a few exceptions to the rule, but the Legion isn't one of them.
I personally think the version Johns is doing has all 3 of those factors working in it's favor and that's why I disagree that is going to suffer the same fate as the reboots.
Johns is a good writer, at least according to a significant portion of modern DC fans.
Not only is he a good writer, but he's got name recognition as well and usually(not always) can bring in fans when working on a previously successfull property. He certainly does that better than any other writer we are likely to get.
Superman is still one of the most recognizable characters in the world...
And contrary to the absolute hate-on many Legion fans have for him...
He is an original Legionnaire and is a bigger factor in the book's survival than Lightning Lad's latest personality or Violet's latest power tweak.
And that is the direction they are going with this title.
[ August 16, 2009, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: As I've said before, STNG lasted for at least 7 seasons and centered around at least one other unforgettable character, DATA. The ST franchise was totally reborn with Generation and the spinoffs weren't from the original but from Next Generation and Deep Space 9 was very successful.
I only want to point that out because I don't think that SciFi fans are limited to 'original' ideas only.
It seems to me that there are other popular movie and TV scifi besides the 3 you mentioned, too, including Doctor Who, Farscape and Star Gate.
Books are a whole other 'story' really, because they don't cost so much money to produce.
There are hundreds of characters and worlds that I have explored over the years, usually as series, so many, really.
And comics are books, after all.
I don't think we're on the same page here really...
#1. I'm not saying sci-fans are limited in what appeals to them, just hte opposite in fact. I'm saying sci-fi is a fringe genre that has a limited appeal to fiction fans in general and needs certain things going for it to have mainstream success. Yes there have been some mainstream successes(specifically the 3 properties I mentioned in their respective realms, not to mention the entire superhero subgenre of scicence fiction) but that is the exception, not the rule. I am saying sci-fans don't seem to really understand that. They don't understand that they aren't mainstream fans and what appeals to them is not what appeals to mainstream fans. Pure sci-fi does not generally have mainstream appeal...that is the point I am making.
When a sci-fi property has had mainstream success, it has been more or less unique and the first of it's kind, and it has had memorable characters...pretty much in every instance.
#2. TNG does not occupy the same stratosphere of success as the original Trek. It has not been as successful, it is not the image conjured in the minds of most fans (sci-fi or otherwise) at the mention of the name Star Trek...nor does Data have anywhere near the instantaneous recognition factor to the majority of people as Spock, Darth Vader or Superman.
I gather you are somewhat of TNG fan and I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but I'm sorry, TNG is not a success on the same order as the orginal was. And it never will be.
You can use a very narrow definition of success and say it was as successful or more successful based on the fact that it was in production longer...but that ignores virtually every other definition of the word being in the favor of the original Trek. And if it hadn't been for the popularity of the original Trek as a cinematic property, there likely would have been no TNG in the fitst place.
TNG owes everything to the original, the original owes nothing to TNG.
You could make a similar argument to the one you are using for TNG for the Reboot VS all other version of the Legion really...it was published in two titles for nearly a decade, no other Legion can say that...
But the reality is half the fans reading it were complaining about what it wasn't...and those two titles sold 25k per month and routinely occupied the bottom 100 of montly comic sales, while the original sold 500k per month and was the top selling team of the Silver Age and probably the Bronze Age as well.
The mention of the name Legion does not conjure the image of the Reboot to most fans..yes it does to some, but not most..because a half million people per month were familiar with the original Legion, 25k per month were familiar with the Reboot.
While I realize many fans consider fringe or cult success as success, and in fact some prefer cult or fringe success to any other kind...DC obviously is not satisfied with fringe success for the Legion, especially when a significant segment of fans is not happy with the product they are getting.
Probably the second trilogy of Star Wars films presents the best arguments against the points I am making...I mean they were as successful commercially as the originals, but I say left to surive on their own that would not be the case....and they relied heavily on the interest in Darth Vader as a character for their success.
[ August 16, 2009, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
You know, I think that boy has a dictophone.
Posted by Mattropolis on :
I for one am loving the Legion backup feature. Yes, I am hoping that they get their own book because with so many characters 8 pages a month is not nearly enough.
But we got plenty of Danny Blaine and although I don't care for the mental illness aspect, I am pleased that he is getting the spotlight I always wanted him to have.
I'm very intrigued by the mysteries that were set up. I have a feeling that Blok may be taking on a humanoid appearance, but I could be wrong. Anyway, can't wait to see what's next!
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Mattropolis: I have a feeling that Blok may be taking on a humanoid appearance,
That's what I was thinking, a reverse Sneckie, though it seems more a Waid thing to do (micro-lad) than a Johns' thing. Since they haven't shown Bloc's face yet, it's not too late for them to come up with something actually creative but probably better to just let it die on the vine.
Posted by Kid Quislet on :
I enjoyed Adventure #1. I thought the artwork appealing and the stories were interesting, if not terribly heavy. My overall impression of both features was that it was aimed at more of a younger audience, which is ok by me.
That said, my complaint is that it was a very light reading - not much substance for $4.00 on the barrel. I hope it gets a little more detailed in upcoming issues, even if indeed aimed at a young crowd. I plan on adding it to my pull list for the year to find out.
Posted by Candle on :
I'm not that big of a fan, so you don't offend me.
But, I bet if you ask the younger generation of movie goers, who like scifi, what do they like best about Star Trek, they'll say, "The Borg."
The truth is that you can judge success by many criterian.
I DO agree that SciFi and/or fantasy has a limited audience, but I don't think it's nearly the 'fringe' genre that you think, at least not to the generation coming up now, the 10 to 30 year olds.
Computer and console games, and manga, have changed all of that.
I'm probably still not on the same page, but I kept it short. Posted by Bottle City of Kanga on :
I think Blok will end up having Mordru's face...just for another unnecessary soapy twist.
quote:Originally posted by Bottle City of Kanga: I think Blok will end up having Mordru's face.
That's what I thought! Hooray for unnecessary twists!
Posted by Bottle City of Kanga on :
quote:Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Bottle City of Kanga: I think Blok will end up having Mordru's face.
That's what I thought! Hooray for unnecessary twists!
But it's just so stoopid!
Posted by Pariscub on :
Not overly impressed so far...
First because I've never been a fan of the new Superboy. Manapul's art was very good (wonder how much the colorist is responsible for that though) but the script was rather "meeh".
Then Legion... *sigh*
Now if it was a preview for a complete issue, why not, but this wasn't that great and I doubt it would interest any people in the Legion. Plus, as people have already said, there are "water issues" with Tellus and to be honest, i'm getting tired of mad Starman...
Of course, I'm also not a fan of Clayton henry, and this even that good compared to what he can do.
We'll wait to see how it goes with the next issue.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
i just wish we got a Torando Twins Mini or somehow they retcon the torando twins being alive...i never saw the rational for killing them. and keep them dead no matter what happens.
1)death during the 5 year gap 2)death b4 the reboot legion's appearance (same earth though) 3) death post infinite crisis.
Posted by Bottle City of Kanga on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: i just wish we got a Torando Twins Mini or somehow they retcon the torando twins being alive...i never saw the rational for killing them. and keep them dead no matter what happens.
1)death during the 5 year gap 2)death b4 the reboot legion's appearance (same earth though) 3) death post infinite crisis.
The Tornado Twins only appeared twice though didn't they? Originally?
Posted by Candle on :
The way this works out, there was always only one set of twins for the 2 universes? I wonder if there's a set in Prime?
Anyway, I'm just glad the last of the 3 universes Element Lads is still alive! He's one of my top 5 Legionnaires and he's had a hard row to hoe! Poor guy. sigh
Blok is talkin' so he at least has a jaw. I doubt he'll look like Mordru since Mordru's 'look' is mostly hair. But Darkseid is a chilling possibility!
Posted by Blacula on :
The Blok sub-plot hint was probably (definitely?) my least favourite thing about this issue. There's just no resolution to that panel that I see myself liking. Blok was fine like he was dammit! And after we spent so long waiting for him to come back too! Posted by Lance's realm on :
Sooo...just out of curiosity - which Legion is this?
Blok is alive? Does this mean this Legion is pre-TMK?
Is Mon-El alive? Does he still have the Krypton connection?
Yera and Lydda are in the Legion, so....um...where does this fit into previous continuity? Or perhaps, it isn't supposed to?
Posted by Arachne on :
It's kind of the first Legion, picking up somewhere in the early Baxter issues I think. There are inconsistencies, though.
Karate Kid was alive, but got killed a new way. There's been no mention of Supergirl. No mention of Imra and Garth's kids (or of their marriage, that I recall.) No sign of Magnetic Kid. Sensor Girl was in the same issue as Karate Kid. Timberwolf and Ayla seem to be together. I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff I'm missing.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Lydda and Rokk aren't in a relationship.
Salu's still at Yera's throat.
Validus is still in the Fatal Give.
There has been evidence of the marriage, since Imra's name in the caption boxes is "Imra Ardeen-Ranzz".
Posted by Candle on :
Well, I'm not the expert, but this seems to be the 5 year gap that was skipped over before, but with some major (or minor, depending how you see it) differences.
I don't think Garth is Protyized.
Mon El hasn't been in the eventually fatal fight with the Time Trapper, that then, lead to Lar destroying the Trapper and the consequences from that.
This is all pre-Zero Hour, as well, which hopefully won't happen this time.
The whole timeline is also pre-TMK ~ not 5YL.
Val was resurrected somehow (I've been told he says that in the LS), and was killed AGAIN later in the Lightning Saga.
I don't think this is early Baxter, though, I think it's AFTER Baxter and the Magic Wars, Pol is dead, I think.
Maybe it's the first year, or even the first few months, after the Baxter series ended. I don't have the stories anymore, but I think I'm pretty close.
But, then again, if it IS early Baxter, Sorcerer's World wouldn't have been locked down yet and Pol would be alive.
But Shady hasn't changed her outfit at all, which doesn't make sense, she should have been out of that thing long ago. It also might mean that she could still die on the Science Asteroid, I guess.
I'm sure someone will correct me if I have the 'Baxter' era incorrectly in my mind, though.
[ August 19, 2009, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Candle ]
Posted by Arachne on :
Sorcerer's World was locked down how? I don't have many of those issues. Mysa went back there at the end of L3W, didn't she?
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Sorcerer's World was locked down by some entity called the Arch-Mage, who was the source of Zerox's magic power and had been imprisoned in the planet long ago. There was actually a giant padlock and chain around the planet, IIRC. To break the lock, a life had to be sacrificed - and Pol flew off, Ferro Lad style, to accomplish the task.
Post Magic War, with a few inconsistencies, makes sense to me as the Lo3W setting. The U.P. would be in a bit of shambles, still recovering from the loss of technology that the Magic Wars caused. In economic bad times, there's usually a search for scapegoats, and Earthgov might have focussed on aliens - and maybe blame the Legion for the whole mess as well. Colu would have been particularly hard hit by the Magic Wars, which would explain the particularly nutty nuttiness we saw in the previous Johns' Legion storyline.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Lance's realm: Sooo...just out of curiosity - which Legion is this?
Blok is alive? Does this mean this Legion is pre-TMK?
Is Mon-El alive? Does he still have the Krypton connection?
Yera and Lydda are in the Legion, so....um...where does this fit into previous continuity? Or perhaps, it isn't supposed to?
This is the sort of original Legion picking up from after Crisis on Infinite Earths but after about a two-three years gap. The 5YG/5YL and the post Crisis (Pocket Universe) eras are separate timelines that no longer exist so pretty much nothing that happened during those periods has come to pass. Blok, Dirk and Mon-El are all alive.
Lydda and Yera plus Myg joined during the two-three years that remain unrecorded and during that period Val was revived somehow.
Mon-El is part of the Legion and is an old friend of Superboy/man. Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
Garth does not have the conciousness of Proty.
There has been no mention of the Ranzz kids or Pol Krinn. Every other member at the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths is a member though some are MIA.
Posted by Superboy on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Internet talk or from a book?
Have any of the books discussed exactly when and why the suit was made?
and for SAL
Do we know for sure that Ranzz doesn't have the proty consciousness? Was that published?
Posted by Candle on :
No. He's just not acting the same way he did before, when Proty was consiously there.
And for Superboy, it should all be spelled out in the Secret Origins, right?
Posted by Lance's realm on :
I see. Sooo....we can just say the writers and editors are making it up as they go along, and don't have to worry about continuity too much? Hmph.
Posted by Blacula on :
^^^ Well to be fair, "making it up as they go along" is what writers do.
But there is a 6-issue mini by Sir Geoff Johns starting next month (I believe) called Superman - Secret Origin (yes, another one) that will probably explain away all these unanswered questions once and for all.
Posted by KryptonKid on :
quote:Originally posted by Mattropolis: I have a feeling that Blok may be taking on a humanoid appearance, but I could be wrong. Anyway, can't wait to see what's next!
I was thinking that Blok might get all crystaline, like his sister, Strata (assuming that she is still his sister). It was implied at some point that only maturing female Dryadians[sic?] go through this, but who knows what Mordru's magicks have done. Grandin Gender Reversal Disease, anyone?
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Internet talk or from a book?
Have any of the books discussed exactly when and why the suit was made?
and for SAL
Do we know for sure that Ranzz doesn't have the proty consciousness? Was that published?
It was Johns who said that Garth isn't Proty (since Garth as Proty didn't happen, it's difficult to include in a story)
Clark first wore the costume in Action Comics 863 in flashback at the end of the Superman/Legion arc.
Posted by Matthew E on :
I'm also not at all sure that retroboot continuity has Star Boy rejoining the Legion after the Kenz Nuhor thing. I suspect he didn't, or possibly he did but not for a long time. Which is not to say that he didn't maintain close ties to the Legion; obviously he did.
The interesting thing to me is not that Garth isn't Proty; it's that the way Johns is portraying Garth is more consistent with hothead Garth of the SW6 batch, of the reboot, of the threeboot, and even a little bit of the animated series... but not like, say, Levitz-era Garth. This implies to me that Levitz-era Garth was Proty, and Johns is reinforcing that interpretation by portraying "his" Garth differently. Which is an interesting thing to do considering that the only effect of it is to validate a comic book (the 5YL annual with the Garth/Proty story in it) that isn't in active continuity anymore.
Posted by Blacula on :
^^^ What makes you think Thom didn't rejoin the Legion Matthew E? That's certainly not something I've picked up from the issues we've read so far.
Posted by Superboy on :
I never concluded Thom never re-joined the Legion from what they showed...a segment of fans did but it never stated he didn't re-join the Legion until the LS. I remember discussing this at the time...there is nothing to indicate he didn't rejoin the Legion.
Just like him being schizophrenic doesn't really contradict anything previously known of Thom.
Schizophrenia is not much of a problem in Thom's time...it's a problem in our time. It's so little of a problem in Thom's time that they didn't even consider it an issue when they sent him back in time. They might not have even known he had schizophrenia.
It's kind of like leprosy is virtually unheard of now....
Posted by Superboy on :
What I do think they've changed though is that Thom no longer had Superman type powers at one point of his career. I'm not certain that's the case but they haven't touched on that at all when recapping this Thom's history...then again, they might not have been familiar with that part of his history at the time and simply goofed.
He also seems to be able to use his powers to life heavy objects now(like a helicopter or a bowling ball turned to inertron).
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Internet talk or from a book?
Have any of the books discussed exactly when and why the suit was made?
and for SAL
Do we know for sure that Ranzz doesn't have the proty consciousness? Was that published?
It was Johns who said that Garth isn't Proty (since Garth as Proty didn't happen, it's difficult to include in a story)
Clark first wore the costume in Action Comics 863 in flashback at the end of the Superman/Legion arc.
When did Johns state that? I know it's obvious, but still...
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Internet talk or from a book?
Have any of the books discussed exactly when and why the suit was made?
and for SAL
Do we know for sure that Ranzz doesn't have the proty consciousness? Was that published?
It was Johns who said that Garth isn't Proty (since Garth as Proty didn't happen, it's difficult to include in a story)
Clark first wore the costume in Action Comics 863 in flashback at the end of the Superman/Legion arc.
When did Johns state that? I know it's obvious, but still...
Obvious because he's a hothead and Proty wasn't?
... and anally, isn't it Proty as Garth? Hmmm?
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Sarcasm Kid:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad:
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
quote:Originally posted by Superboy:
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: Superboy (Kal-El) himself was a Legionnaire even though he never wore the costume as Superboy in his own time.
I'm not sure that's the case. I've heard different statements on this. I think it's that he did have a career including in the suit somewhat, but it was very secretive. That means he didn't prance around in public in the suit for sure, but I don't think it means absolutely that he never wore the costume in his own time.
Internet talk or from a book?
Have any of the books discussed exactly when and why the suit was made?
and for SAL
Do we know for sure that Ranzz doesn't have the proty consciousness? Was that published?
It was Johns who said that Garth isn't Proty (since Garth as Proty didn't happen, it's difficult to include in a story)
Clark first wore the costume in Action Comics 863 in flashback at the end of the Superman/Legion arc.
When did Johns state that? I know it's obvious, but still...
Obvious because he's a hothead and Proty wasn't?
... and anally, isn't it Proty as Garth? Hmmm?
Well, Garth/Proty had a lot more problems than not being hotheaded ~ is not being hotheaded a problem?
This is the Legion the grew from the Silver Age, right? Then, Garth died and was resurrected somehow. Maybe it was Reflecto or someone else, and it's still not Garth that we're seeing. gads
I think Imra and Garth should get a divorce anyway. I don't like this Garth and he's obviously ubber jealous of Rokk, who's seems not to be with Lydda anymore. He was standing alone with Imra looking at him mornfully in one panel.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
Well, in other panels, you see Garth and Imra holding one another.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Well, Garth/Proty had a lot more problems than not being hotheaded ~ is not being hotheaded a problem? [/QB]
I was trying to determine how people knew this was "Just Garth" as opposed to "Garth-Proty."
I thought maybe they were saying that G-P wasn't hot-headed and the Johnsboot version is, hence Johnsboot Garth isn't a proty-garth, he's just a garth-garth.
Posted by Candle on :
Someone said Johns said somewhere that it wasn't Proty-Garth. Proty-Garth, before we knew that it was Proty's spirit inside, had some major mental breakdowns, if I remember correctly.
This Garth is really quite different but all of the Legionnaires have much more personality since the reboot time, even these who are based on the originals.
Posted by MLLASH on :
Got it and read it last night!
What a pleasant surprise it was.
Though I collected Clone-El's last series, it was definitely an up-and-down book that never stood out as one of my favorites. His run in ADVENTURE might change that.
I *love* that they have an option for the series numbering. Traditionalists have their Adventure # 504 and today's fans of all-new and all-now have a new # 1.
Loving the Smallville setting.
Francis' art seems to have taken on a stripped-down simple approach that my eye finds appealing. The muted coloring was lovely.
The last panel I found to be quite creepy (in a good way). Clone-El has daddy issues deluxe, doesn't he?
A very nice if not breathtaking start.
And now for THE LEGION!
While I am having a difficult time trying to accept that DC considers the LSH's current popularity to be at about the level of the latest Blue Beetle and Ravager, I didn't let that stop me from enjoying the backup tale.
The blurry character bios-blocks and mixup with Lydda and Shady was pretty unforgivable though!!
This was over much too soon but I liked the look at things to come.
All in all, a good start. Hope the sales are there.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: Got it and read it last night!
What a pleasant surprise it was...
I *love* that they have an option for the series numbering. Traditionalists have their Adventure # 504 and today's fans of all-new and all-now have a new # 1.
My comic's guy, good guy that he is, made sure to have the 504 in my bin but I just couldn't not have that Manapul cover on 1 so I shocked him when I switched.
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH:
Francis' art seems to have taken on a stripped-down simple approach that my eye finds appealing. The muted coloring was lovely.
I've never had a commision done, but I could really imagine hanging on my wall, a Manapul "cover" of Wyeth's Christina's World, with Imra or Ayla instead.
[ August 22, 2009, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
got it. enjoyed it.
I've actually been looking forward to the Legion as a back-up series, to allow character time rather than big universe-shaking epics that fall flat. I was mostly worried about the lead... Kon-El was never my fave, but this take is good so far. I like Manipul's art here better than on v5, and like the links between lead and backup.
I'm glad the Thom story seems to be going somewhere; it was the one thing I was most disappointed with in JSA. The hints-to-come bit looks good; it looks like good follow-through from L3W.
Now we just need code-names bumped up to adult names, since these are Clark's peers, not Kon's.
Posted by Candle on :
Wyeth is a favorite and I can connect him to the Adventure look.
And I love that you want to the code names, Kent ~ be prepared for an intellectual battle, though.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
More of an emotional one has been my take on that battle, lol.
Posted by SLK on :
Random thoughts:
I hope that limiting Johns to eight pages will force him to tell stories with a little more meat to them. I'm not sure he juggles large groups very well. Now I know he had success on JSA, but even that felt as though characters were often ignored and stories dragged for far too long.
I never imagined that the launching of a new Legion feature would start with Starboy(Man) and Tellus. I love Tellus and hope he won't quickly be forgotten.
I usually enjoy Johns's "sneak preview" page, but this time it felt like wasted space. I want more story!
I cannot wait until the Legion bumps Superboy out of another title.
Posted by MLLASH on :
I think that might be the plan down the road...
Posted by Mattropolis on :
Well I enjoyed it... But then, you all know how I feel about Star Boy, ESPECIALLY the Danny Blaine incarnation...
Posted by Candle on :
I have no idea who Danny Blaine is. Posted by Mattropolis on :
Danny Blaine is the name Thom uses in the Twentienth Century
Posted by Candle on :
Oh! Well, I'm always missing something! Thanks for the info.
BB ~ yes, lol.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
It was intro'd in the Robinson Starman series (1994-2002ish, when Jack Knight met Thom Kallor (the Reboot version) two times. The first time (#50), young Thom was shocked to learn that he would someday live in the past as Danny Blaine and meet his preordained fate. They met again in one of the final issues, an older Thom who knew the following day would be his last.
Current Starman/Neoclassic Thom has used the Danny Blaine name a couple times in JSA, and he is clearly a different timeline-variant of the one Jack met.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
"different"
Missed opportunity
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
I've never been a fan of Superboy. Any version. Ever. I preferred the Legion without him.
But I love Krypto. The dog rocks. So I enjoyed this issue, and I'll stick around for at least a few more.
Posted by Korbal on :
Anyone else connect the red jewel that Luthor has on the cover to the red glowing pendant Simon Valentine wears? Possible Anagram--Mon-El is Native-- a possible Lar Gand/Luthor hybrid clone?Hmm...
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Finally got this issue, but I'd seen so many previews that it felt like I'd already read it. It did feel pretty much like a set up, but that's okay. Yay Krypto! I'm so glad Krypto doesn't talk anymore, just acts like a dog. Nice feel to the Smallville scenes, but you know that calm can't last. Don't know about this Simon Valentine character....
Thom Kallor, so sad. It just strikes me as ominous; he's entrusted with this big mission and sometimes he's aware of what's going on, but usually it's all muddled in his head.
I actually prefer this sort of treatment of the Legionnaires in 20th/21st century story. Usually they arrive as a group, do their thing and pop back to the future. Here they're all scattered, trying to put together the pieces of whatever mission(s) they had - a test of their abilities, and a bit of a puzzle for the reader to figure out.
Posted by rouge on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I *love* that they have an option for the series numbering. Traditionalists have their Adventure # 504 and today's fans of all-new and all-now have a new # 1.
Yes, if you're willing to pay 10 bucks an issue for the Adventure numbering. Posted by MLLASH on :
My CBS didn't do that. Both issues were the same price. I wouldn't have paid extra.
Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
Garth only became really proty in the 5 year gap stories post-LSH 5. We can say that in the revised timeline in the Glorith universe that Garth was really proty based in a large part of the membership of Kid Quantum (because KQ had all the sentience of the Proteans, except for 5 of them plus Kid Q and Proty 1) it makes sense for Garth to have been Proty then since it was a clear revelation happening...and also it was more organic story telling than pre-Gloirth universe...and besides...the idea really started as fan talk...kinda like Jan being gay and Mon-EL really being Eltro Gand. All of which became cannon during the 5year gap, not before.
Posted by Blacula on :
I keep hearing about these fabled paradise comic shops that charge the same price for regular and variant covers. WHERE CAN I FIND THESE SHOPS?!? Most of the stores I've been to add another $10-$20 to the price of all their variant covers. Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: A new Batman and the Legion of Super-Heroes would be kind cool.
Dick Grayson is Titan and Legion age. Night Girl, Shady, T Wolf, Tinya and Cham would fit in easily with just a little redesigning, as would Tellus, Starman, ELad and Dreamy.
Maybe they could call it 'Batman and the LSH Espionage Squad'.
AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!
Please NO!!
Does Batman have to run every freaking thing in the DC universe? Hell, even "Superman X" in the Legion cartoon was essentially a marketing attempt to get Batman in there without using the name.
Gah. Enough already. Save it for Elseworlds, DC.
Posted by doublechinner on :
I read it a week ago at the start of my vacation, and my impressions were generally positive. And I say that as someone who has NEVER liked the clone Superboy. Ever. But this was intriguing, with his secret interest in Luthor. We may finally get to see a decent take on someone being SuperBOY, not just little Superman or annoying character you wish weren't connected to Superman. The Legion story was...not a story. The error on labeling Legionnaires was unforgivable. The art is promising, even with the big foreheads. It's good to know the Legion has some sort of future. At my more cynical moments, I worry that Johns is just the master of some story-telling ponzi scheme that never resolves anything. At other times, I'm happy his stories build and grow off of each other so well.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome:
quote:Originally posted by Candle: A new Batman and the Legion of Super-Heroes would be kind cool.
AAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!
Please NO!! . . .
Gah. Enough already. Save it for Elseworlds, DC.
Sorry to upset you.
Bats has already done a Legion story, during the Lightning Saga, I think.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner: I've never been a fan of Superboy. Any version. Ever. I preferred the Legion without him.
But I love Krypto. The dog rocks. So I enjoyed this issue, and I'll stick around for at least a few more.
I actually agree on Superboy, but if they've got to use him, do it well. Any Superboy not stuck in Silver Age sitcomy Leave-it-to-Beaverdom is an improvement.
I've been less a fan of Krypto than of Superboy. Super-powered animals make Silver Age Lex Luthor's escapes from jail on shoes with giant springs seem like good storytelling in comparison.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Bats has already done a Legion story, during the Lightning Saga, I think.
A team-up in Brave & The Bold (not the all-ages version) I believe.
Posted by Outdoor Miner on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner: I've never been a fan of Superboy. Any version. Ever. I preferred the Legion without him.
But I love Krypto. The dog rocks. So I enjoyed this issue, and I'll stick around for at least a few more.
I actually agree on Superboy, but if they've got to use him, do it well. Any Superboy not stuck in Silver Age sitcomy Leave-it-to-Beaverdom is an improvement.
I've been less a fan of Krypto than of Superboy. Super-powered animals make Silver Age Lex Luthor's escapes from jail on shoes with giant springs seem like good storytelling in comparison.
Understood, though I suppose it comes down to how "realistic" one wants their comics to be. There's something about a dog with super-powers which feels right and fun to me, though it's hardly realistic. Angsty super-powered teens are certainly more believable than the Silver Age norm, but most of them bore me to tears.
Posted by Sarcasm Kid on :
quote:Originally posted by Outdoor Miner:
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Bats has already done a Legion story, during the Lightning Saga, I think.
A team-up in Brave & The Bold (not the all-ages version) I believe.
Bats went up against Karate Kid in Justice League #8.
Justice Society #5 had Starman finding Dream Girl in Arkham Asylum, where Doctor Destiny was using Dream Girl's connection to the Dreaming to manifest the Asylum patients nightmares of Batman.
And Action Comics #864 would count.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare: I actually agree on Superboy, but if they've got to use him, do it well. Any Superboy not stuck in Silver Age sitcomy Leave-it-to-Beaverdom is an improvement.
Agreed. I never liked Superclark, because the age and it's themes never really appealed to me. Superconner, on the other hand, feels more like a real person and less like a Happy Days character.
quote: I've been less a fan of Krypto than of Superboy. Super-powered animals make Silver Age Lex Luthor's escapes from jail on shoes with giant springs seem like good storytelling in comparison.
In the context of the 60s, I didn't mind Krypto. In the modern day, I'd prefer for him to go away.
Certain titles have a whacky-fun or 'out-there' tone, and the presence of Cosmo in Guardians of the Galaxy is a riot, but the presence of Krypto in a comic title that has characters like Prime guest-starring just feels jarring and inappropriate.
In the long run, a super-powered Kryptonian dog with a cape is no more ludicrous than a human-male-shaped Kyptonian with those sorts of powers, running around with his underwear on the outside like that guy that gets kicked out of the frat party for embarassing even the drunken professional ne'er-do-wells.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: . . . but the presence of Krypto in a comic title that has characters like Prime guest-starring just feels jarring and inappropriate.
Actually, I feel it's the other way around, Prime is the one who's jarring and inappropriate, in every way.
Krypto, on the other hand, is a breath of sanity and joy, in a comic industry (and world) gone mad.
Posted by Silver Age Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle:
quote:Originally posted by Set: . . . but the presence of Krypto in a comic title that has characters like Prime guest-starring just feels jarring and inappropriate.
Actually, I feel it's the other way around, Prime is the one who's jarring and inappropriate, in every way.
Krypto, on the other hand, is a breath of sanity and joy, in a comic industry (and world) gone mad.
I think that Prime and Krypto are the opposite extremes and as such I don't like either.
When it comes to Krypto, it is hard enough to accept a giant planet that has developed a race of people that are exactly the same as caucasion humans but live in a world of jewel mountains , fire falls etc. And then amongst all the weird creatures on Krypton are domesticated animals that look and behave like Earth's domesticated wolves. It is a stretch of parallel evolution too far. And don't get me started about Beppo the super-monkey...
Posted by Superboy on :
When I read these comments the one thing that becomes clear to me is that the only way this Legion this is going to work is if DC produces two Legion series, because I most definitely do like the Legion that Superboy and Krypto were a part of etc...and I don't get much from the Legions they weren't a part of at all, to me those Legions are just another Superteam...and this includes the one written by Paul Levitz after the COIE.
Also, those other Legions are the ones I have been reading every since the COIE, that get rebooted every couple of years, I say it's because they lack those very things other don't want to see...other people say they have not caught on because of the writing.
I'm pretty much certain beyond all doubt that it's not the writing, especially when looking at the list of writers to wok on the title since the COIE, and various things they have tried, but I guess we all have our own opinions on that.
Ultimately there is only one way to find out, and that's to give the fans both.
And I think DC is about to attempt just that.
Only one of them is going to be called the New Wanderers. Works for me since Superboy and Krypto were part of the fabric of the Legion that was a cornerstone of DC whereas the other Legions never really were. So I do think the one Superboy and Krypto(or at least the one resembling that) were a part of should be the one bearing the name.
And as for the New Wanderers, it looks like the Reboot is going to serve as the Supermanless Legion and that's probably not a bad idea as they were arguably the best written and conceived of the post crisis Legions(except for the needless power changes). They certainly were in publication the longest.
Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Supermanless Legion and the L.E.G.I.O.N./R.E.B.E.L.S. title that is out right now conceptually. It's about as realistic as a space team can be. So hopefully the New Wanderers will fare better than that one is...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the writing and art on that title
And I do know this, and I know I speak for all fans that do like Superboy in the Legion, we deserve a title too, the one we want to see deserves a chance to fail on it's own merits (and not editorial decisions or legal manuevering).
[ August 26, 2009, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: In the context of the 60s, I didn't mind Krypto. In the modern day, I'd prefer for him to go away.
Well said.
quote:Originally posted by Set: Certain titles have a whacky-fun or 'out-there' tone, and the presence of Cosmo in Guardians of the Galaxy is a riot, but the presence of Krypto in a comic title that has characters like Prime guest-starring just feels jarring and inappropriate.
I can see that. But I've had enough of Prime, so I can appreciate Candle's p.o.v. too.
quote:Originally posted by Set: In the long run, a super-powered Kryptonian dog with a cape is no more ludicrous than a human-male-shaped Kyptonian with those sorts of powers, running around with his underwear on the outside like that guy that gets kicked out of the frat party for embarassing even the drunken professional ne'er-do-wells.
I've always subscribed to the idea of Kryptonian powers being psionic rather than physical (other than fueled by solar power, that is), so a dog with the same powers does seem more ludicrous to me. But I concede there is room to debate.
as for the costume (even beyond tradition), in a comics-universe where people have been dressing that way since the 40s, it would seem no more unusual than the spandex bodysuits we see athletes in these days. But I'm nit-picking for the sake of discussion.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
If you want to have comics, meaning the next generation of 40 somethings paying real money for them, then there's better be a Beppo, Streaky and Krypto for the younger crowd and if a few of us older something happen to like it too? Well, it keeps us off the roads so in the BIG picture, Krypto is good for you superdog haters.
A kid going through father problems has got to have a dog. As long when told to speak, he doesn't recite Shakespeare, I'm happy with a superdog in the mainstream, it makes my tummy warm.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by Silver Age Lad: When it comes to Krypto, it is hard enough to accept a giant planet that has developed a race of people that are exactly the same as caucasion humans but live in a world of jewel mountains , fire falls etc. And then amongst all the weird creatures on Krypton are domesticated animals that look and behave like Earth's domesticated wolves. It is a stretch of parallel evolution too far. And don't get me started about Beppo the super-monkey...
Well, yes, it would be, but it's most probably not parallel evolution.
Like Star Trek, with it's many worlds of humanoid development, the DCU was probably 'seeded'.
If we go with seeded, not as Valor did, but at a 'plasma pool' level, beings similar to Earth flora and fauna would develop.
In Kryptonian development, the environment (those crystal mountains and fire falls) wasn't enough to create major physical differences in species from Earth, except on some basic level not even realized by Kryptonians until their exposure to a sun that isn't red.
As far as powers go, we share eyesight, hearing, taste, touch, smell, pain, thought and etc., with the animals around us. Why would it be impossible for Kryptonian animals to share an inate ability to be solar batteries and use that power in similar ways to the humanoids of their world?
Even insects and invertebrates share many of our senses and abilities. Even flat worms have eye spots.
I DO agree about the cape, it's silly. But I know LOTS of people who put clothes on their dogs. Maybe, Krypto should have a red bandana with an S on it, rather than a cape. Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Like Star Trek, with it's many worlds of humanoid development, the DCU was probably 'seeded'.
Even when they were supposed to be 'aliens,' I always thought of the vast majority of Legion home worlds as Earth colonies. Titan is the most egregious offender, but Braal, Winath, Cargg, etc. could easily be colony-worlds.
I just roll my eyes whenever Super-whomever shows up. Those sorts of characters are narrative kryptonite. Either Superman uses a tenth of his powers and the threat is neutralized before the rest of the Superfriends even have time to hear the Trouble Alert, or Superman stands around like a big blue dork, allowing his friends to be endangered, so that they get to show off their insignificant powers. "Yes, let's wait for Hawkman to get here and hit it with a stick. I'll go stop an earthquake in Chile, catch a falling airliner over Osaka and rescue some trapped mineworkers in South Africa while he's flapping his way to the battle..."
As long as Conner has only a fraction of a Kryptonian's strength (and doesn't seem particularly tougher than Cassie), he's usable.
As much as I didn't care for the way they dealt with the 'Last Son of Krypton' thing by removing Superboy from the Legion's history, I think that the writing would benefit hugely from there being something *special* about Kal (and Lar) and there not be entire races full of people with the powers of Superboy/Mon-El.
It would also nip the 'mind-controlled army of Daxamites' plotline in the bud, since it's already been used too often.
Instead of *every* Kryptonian / Daxamite gaining planet-shaking power under a yellow sun, I'd rather it be that the long spaceship journey undertaken by both Kal and Lar exposed them to something special, that allowed them to convert solar energy into vast power. Perhaps the process required falling through a spatial distortion, or into a black hole, or a journey that went horribly wrong and took *millenia*, so that it can't be easily replicated to pump out hundreds of super-people, super-dogs, super-cats, super-monkeys, etc.
Posted by Candle on :
Like Jo Nah or Garth/Ayla/Mekt?
We might prefer it that way, but that's not how it's been done, so we have to go with what we have. I think, anyway.
There are MANY humanoid worlds that are NOT colonized historically or any other wise, in the DCU, though. Krypton, Colu, Tallok VIII, Kundia, Lobo's home world, and hundreds and hundreds of others.
In the Valor universes, he 'seeded' worlds with Dominator experiments but that hasn't happened in universe 0. I suspect New Krypton may do that with the Brainiac worlds this time, but they won't be Earth experimant colonists, since they all came from their own homeworlds at one time.
And in the whole DCU at this time, there is only New Krypton and Daxam, Krypton's ancient colony, who share those superpowers under a yellow sun and Daxam has that horrible lead weakness so I don't find the issue to be a terrible problem.
I DO think that a lot of the Kryptonian superpowers may be beyond MOST of the animals from their homeworld. They may all share the 'battery' ability but most may only show it with invulnerability and superstrength. Some may 'float' or automatically use infrared or X-ray vision, but the powers that Kal had to learn to control, like flying and heat vision, would be beyond them. Except for exceptional canines, felines and monkeys, maybe. Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
re: superboy says above: "Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Supermanless Legion and the L.E.G.I.O.N./R.E.B.E.L.S. title that is out right now conceptually".
i dunno about that. the "New Wanderers" float thru dimensions holding hands in a big conga line. they don't eat or read or fight crime. they just float. AND they are duplicates of the Legion in Adventure. same powers, same identities ONLY just some of the names are different and some of them look a little different, and... pretty lame concept if you ask me. if you can't say it it one sentence then it's not a marketable concept.
"Look it's Superman's friends from the future, Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl!" " no, it's the Brainiac 5 from Earth Prime because that Saturn Girl is mute, and that Dream Girl loves Brainy not Star Boy... er... Starman." "um..." too confusing. we just need one legion to care about not 3 Legions.
Posted by MLLASH on :
NEW WANDERERS: The team that floats thru dimensions holding hands in a big conga line.
I'd at least have to check out the first issue, even if it wasn't LSH related... Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
re: superboy says above: "Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Supermanless Legion and the L.E.G.I.O.N./R.E.B.E.L.S. title that is out right now conceptually".
i dunno about that. the "New Wanderers" float thru dimensions holding hands in a big conga line. they don't eat or read or fight crime. they just float. AND they are duplicates of the Legion in Adventure. same powers, same identities ONLY just some of the names are different and some of them look a little different, and... pretty lame concept if you ask me. if you can't say it it one sentence then it's not a marketable concept.
"Look it's Superman's friends from the future, Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl!" " no, it's the Brainiac 5 from Earth Prime because that Saturn Girl is mute, and that Dream Girl loves Brainy not Star Boy... er... Starman." "um..." too confusing. we just need one legion to care about not 3 Legions.
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
re: superboy says above: "Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between the Supermanless Legion and the L.E.G.I.O.N./R.E.B.E.L.S. title that is out right now conceptually".
i dunno about that. the "New Wanderers" float thru dimensions holding hands in a big conga line. they don't eat or read or fight crime. they just float. AND they are duplicates of the Legion in Adventure. same powers, same identities ONLY just some of the names are different and some of them look a little different, and... pretty lame concept if you ask me. if you can't say it it one sentence then it's not a marketable concept.
"Look it's Superman's friends from the future, Brainiac 5 and Saturn Girl!" " no, it's the Brainiac 5 from Earth Prime because that Saturn Girl is mute, and that Dream Girl loves Brainy not Star Boy... er... Starman." "um..." too confusing. we just need one legion to care about not 3 Legions.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: NEW WANDERERS: The team that floats thru dimensions holding hands in a big conga line.
I'd at least have to check out the first issue, even if it wasn't LSH related...
Yeowwwwsir! Who's the last one in line so I can grab his/her . . . hand!
But yeah, I think they need a house and transportation. It wouldn't be the first time they 'took' what they needed from some generous soul.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
I was pleasantly surprised by #1. Although it felt like onethe story seemed to be stretched longer than it should have been (both of them), I can see why there might purposely be a slow burn build-up.
I collected Superboy's entire last series and this was already as good as that ever was (and there were times it was pretty good). I didn't realize how much I missed the character, which shows how long he's been misused these last few years.
Also glad to see a Smallville that isn't from the 1930's. Thank you Smallville TV Series for showing people that can be done.
Lot of interesting things appear to be developing, with some new characters.
The Starman back-up was okay but the set-up for future things is exciting. Element Lad, Tellus, Dream Girl, Starman...all of them in the present time, obviously with something tied to Superboy. I'm intrigued. Johns is purposely creating a slow build rather than a Legion title immediately and maybe thats a better approach considering the last several attempts were complete failures sale-wise. He might be waiting until after Blackest Night is over. And his slow-build approach helped create excitement for Sinestro Corps and Blackest Night, proving that formula is successful. Hopefully he's keeping his cards close to the vest so Didio isn't too aware of his overall plan.
I love the idea that maybe one day soon the Legion will push Superboy out of this title. I would expect, of course, the reason would be because Superboy would suddenly star in his own Superboy #1, so DC could have two Superboy launches in two years (you know those guys are space-hookers to the extreme ). And if Superboy somehow can become a marketing success again, any chance for the Legion to share in that would be welcome.
I'm actually pretty excited about this, and don't mind taking things slowly with more character-oriented stories for the time being. It will at least get us away from the "great menace on the horizon" stories. So I'm excited about Wildfire/Dawny and Brek/Dirk stories to come. In the meantime, the Legionnaires in the 21st Century having their back-ups eventually tying in to Superboy (and possibly Mon-El) seems intriguing to me too.
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
PS - I think Blockade Boy is right about Krypto. If Superboy or the Legion OR COMICS IN GENERAL are to survive, there needs to be things for the younger kids too. Especially in the Superman-related titles above all others. So Krypto is either a welcome bit of nostalgia or a necessary evil depending on the viewpoint.
Posted by doublechinner on :
Krypto is one of those bipolar concepts -- people have no in between. I don't mind the idea of a superpowered dog. There are lots of really good dogs in the real world. I've never owned one (mine are always annoying and misbehaved) but I know they exist. The thing that always bothered me most about Krypto is that he looks too distinctive. He's an all-white dog with vaguely beagle/hound/dalmatian features. That's not a particularly common-looking breed these days (if it ever was). So there's no chance he could maintain a secret identity. Which is fine with me.
As for the Legion...well, it's pretty cool that Tellus is such a big player, even if no new reader has yet learned enough about him to distinguish him from a Swamp Thing. And say what you like about Starman, this is more panels and more characterization than he really ever had before. I'm glad that Johns isn't referring to his condition as "schizophrenia" anymore, though. Just mental illness is fine. And we see both the amusing and more poignant aspects of that illness in this issue, so that makes me feel less sensitive about this portrayal of the character.
Posted by cleome on :
(snip)
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Sorry to upset you.
Bats has already done a Legion story, during the Lightning Saga, I think.
More exasperated than upset, really.
Batman is essentially what TV Tropes calls a Canon Sue, all over the DC-verse. And I've never had any real love for the "Dark Knight" phase, personally.
Even with characters I do like, there's such a thing as overexposure.
I'd make an exception for this kind of story if the Bat-character was totally out of his element in the future, had no idea what the hell he was doing, and actually had to rely on other people to take some initiative on his behalf. IOW, the opposite of what we usually see when Batman shows up to suck the air out of every team by being Always Right/The Axis Around Which Everything Else Must Revolve.
[ August 27, 2009, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
quote:Originally posted by Set: Instead of *every* Kryptonian / Daxamite gaining planet-shaking power under a yellow sun, I'd rather it be that the long spaceship journey undertaken by both Kal and Lar exposed them to something special, that allowed them to convert solar energy into vast power. Perhaps the process required falling through a spatial distortion, or into a black hole, or a journey that went horribly wrong and took *millenia*, so that it can't be easily replicated to pump out hundreds of super-people, super-dogs, super-cats, super-monkeys, etc.
agreed. I much prefer the idea that there *were* such races, but no longer are.
quote:Originally posted by Cobalt Kid: PS - I think Blockade Boy is right about Krypto. If Superboy or the Legion OR COMICS IN GENERAL are to survive, there needs to be things for the younger kids too. Especially in the Superman-related titles above all others. So Krypto is either a welcome bit of nostalgia or a necessary evil depending on the viewpoint.
Maybe. But I'm not sold on that reading-age kids necessarily want to see super-powered pets, except maybe in a funny-animal-verse of their own.
There is a lot of stuff aimed at kids that kids don't necessarily latch onto. Kids of today have far more entertainment options than we did at their age, and by nature its going to be a certain breed that will latch onto comics for more than 15 minutes.
I commend the idea of reaching out to kids, but (1) every time DC or Marvel have done so, it generally falls rather flat (even with a reasonably successful TV/film tie-in to sponge off of), (2) there is no need to dumb down general-audience comics in hopes that it will cause kids to latch onto it, and (3) adults who want to reach kids may have good intentions but don't know how to follow through - bigger corporations than any comics company have people paid to study trends and tastes and I can't see either Marvel or DC making that kind of effort/investment.
Posted by Candle on :
I don't consider superpets as a dumbing down.
There are many hero animals in history and in this day and age. Many gave their lives for the people and other animals that they loved.
As for animals with 'powers', they're everywhere in literature and movies.
The Avatar had 2 companion animals with him and there were many more superpowered and supernatural animals in his story.
Given the popuiarity of penguins the last few years, I'm suprised Kal hasn't picked up a super Kryptonian one for Lois, yet.
Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
I guess for me there's too much baggage from the Silver Age and beyond, re: super-pets.
The Krypto back-up in early 80s Superboy stands out in memory: the dog thought like a person and even had a secret identity.
The well's still too polluted for me... but I did approve of Morrison's handling of Krypto in All-Star.
Posted by Rockhopper Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: Given the popuiarity of penguins the last few years, I'm suprised Kal hasn't picked up a super Kryptonian one for Lois, yet.
Sounds good to me! Posted by Candle on :
But do we want one with happy feet or one who's a ninja and comes with a crazy lemur king? Posted by googoomuck on :
quote:Originally posted by Candle: I DO agree about the cape, it's silly. But I know LOTS of people who put clothes on their dogs. Maybe, Krypto should have a red bandana with an S on it, rather than a cape.
Look at the Legion pages, and play "Where's the Tattoo"?
Posted by Candle on :
What tatoo? Posted by Fat Cramer on :
It went away with Garth's shave.
Posted by doublechinner on :
The artist's rendering of Garth's costume is REALLY unflattering. The white mid-section makes him look like he's wearing a giant diaper. I know these guys are old and all now, but do they have to wear super-depends on the OUTSIDE of their costumes? Seriously, the artist should just change the costume.
Part of it is, too, that his Lightning Lad is a really ... beefy guy. I think it's good to have the Legionnaires present different body types, although I guess I always thought of Cosmic Boy as the shorter, beefy, chunky, magnetic lodestone guy and Lightning Lad as light and skinny, like lightning. But whatever. The diversity of sizes is welcome regardless.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: Part of it is, too, that his Lightning Lad is a really ... beefy guy. I think it's good to have the Legionnaires present different body types, although I guess I always thought of Cosmic Boy as the shorter, beefy, chunky, magnetic lodestone guy and Lightning Lad as light and skinny, like lightning.
Heh, with all the artistic changes, I tended to think of them the opposite. Former Magno-ball champion Cos as a thin tennis-player build guy and former farm-boy LL as a taller guy with broader shoulders!
When all of the male characters have the same generic 'Captain America' build, I guess we just invent our own distinctions to place over them!
Totally agree on the giant diaper thing 'though. That costume is hideous. Garth has almost always had much better costumes than that.
Posted by Candle on :
quote:Originally posted by doublechinner: The artist's rendering of Garth's costume is REALLY unflattering. The white mid-section makes him look like he's wearing a giant diaper. I know these guys are old and all now, but do they have to wear super-depends on the OUTSIDE of their costumes? Seriously, the artist should just change the costume.
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That's what I get for commenting without having actually read the whole issue yet. I'm glad that they explained the swamp anomoly, though. Thanks for setting me straight, Ricardo.
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the code names, Kent ~ be prepared for an intellectual battle, though.
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