quote:Originally posted by lil'rhino: Cosmic Boy has a Plastino feel to me, while barrel-chested Garth is very Wayne Boring. Wildfire's pose mimics Grell's cover to the 1st tabloid & Superboy reminds me of Staton's cover to S/LSH # 250. Timber Wolf & Imra I don't like at all.
The awfulness of Timber Wolf and Saturn Girl have distracted me every time I've looked at that cover in the past... but now that you mention it - Cosmic Boy and Lightning Lad don't look too bad really. And I can definitely see there's an homage to earlier artists going on there.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.
Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.
By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.
Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.
I absolutely agree Chief and if you read my comments I always reiterate that my views only reflect my tastes but I appreciate that others have different views. What I object to is that there are people on this board that support Giffen and have desribed me and others as 'wrong', 'insulting' and various other absolutes.
I have an opinion. They have an opinion. Neither is absolute but I feel - and I accept it is a perception - that when someone criticises Giffen they are accused of absoluteism but someone praising Giffen can say what they like.
I have said many times that I believe Giffen's art around the GDS was some of the best in Legion history but when that is compared with the 5YL art it is chalk and cheese and to me the 5YL art is poor. The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom. Some may feel that added to the overall product but in my opinion it greatly detracted from the storytelling. I always accept that this is my opinion but I am neither wrong nor insulting for having it or stating it.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since judging the quality of anyone's artwork is about 99% subjective, I think we can and should all just infer that an IMHO is intended when any such judgments are made.
IMHO, of course.
-------------------- Buy my new graphic novel! http://www.dodeka12.com
From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: SA Lad, I'm not sure if I'm one of those 'Giffen defenders' you refer to, but I should point out that I said, "I personally haven't loved every single permutation of his style but am a big fan particularly of his early work with Levitz and his work on 5YL." I think that makes it fairly clear that I don't think he walks on water.
Again, my objection is to dealing in absolutes and particularly phrasing words in such a way as to imply others are wrong for thinking differently. My defense here is of those whom those assertions would disrespect.
By all means, share your opinions here on whatever you feel like sharing, even if they're negative. But always be mindful and respectful of differing opinions. If one thinks Giffen's art is "hideous", then provide examples and don't phrase them in such a way that someone who likes his art is being degraded. "In my opinion" is always a respectful route to go as far as verbage. Also, if there's any thing nice at all you can add about Giffen's work, it shows a more balanced viewpoint.
Again, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, but this particular awesome message board is built primarily on the tenet of "respect". Show respect here, and your views will be respected in turn.
I absolutely agree Chief and if you read my comments I always reiterate that my views only reflect my tastes but I appreciate that others have different views. What I object to is that there are people on this board that support Giffen and have desribed me and others as 'wrong', 'insulting' and various other absolutes.
I have an opinion. They have an opinion. Neither is absolute but I feel - and I accept it is a perception - that when someone criticises Giffen they are accused of absoluteism but someone praising Giffen can say what they like.
I have said many times that I believe Giffen's art around the GDS was some of the best in Legion history but when that is compared with the 5YL art it is chalk and cheese and to me the 5YL art is poor. The 5YL art does not tell the story well IMHO. it was regularyly difficult to tell what was happening and who was whom. Some may feel that added to the overall product but in my opinion it greatly detracted from the storytelling. I always accept that this is my opinion but I am neither wrong nor insulting for having it or stating it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response SAL!
I'm gonna go ahead and concede that I may have overreacted to the original post by Future King. Looking back on it, I think that the wording was not as harsh as I originally thought it was. I see he edited it at some point, but I'll assume his edit didn't really change anything in such a way as to alter what he said.
I think I may have been overly sensitive, especially since I don't see what's so horrible about the Legacies cover like so many others. Also, together and seperately, Levitz and Giffen have produced my absolute favorite Legion stories, the ones that made me into such a hardcore fan. The era that began when Paul returned to the Legion as regular writer in the 280s of Volume 2 all the way through Zero Hour is "my" Legion, even with some rough patches here and there (particularly the last year of Volume Three and that last year leading up to Zero Hour).
I greatly respect what Giffen did with and without Levitz during that long time frame. So it hurts when someone refers to his art as "hideous" or even when only the pre-Omen & Prophet stuff is revered. In my mind LSH Vol. 4, issues 1-38/TMK may be the most perfect and definitive set of comics out of that whole Levitz/Giffen era.
Still, I'm not immune to Giffen criticism. He's done lots of projects over the years, writing and artwise, that have just caused me to scratch my head. Among those are certainly those really out-there costume redesigns he did at the end of Levitz's run on Volume Three. I personally thought and still think that most, if not all of those, are among the ugliest costumes I've ever seen!
I commented elsewhere that I've been guilty of similar creator-bashing at times, particularly with easy targets like Rob Liefeld and Judd Winick who always seem fashionable to lambast.
But this being a Legion-centric board, there are certain creators who've had definitive influences on the Legion. No matter where in the spectrum you fall, there's no denying Giffen is one of those. So, of course, when one of those is as controversial as Giffen is (possibly THE most controversial Legion creator?), things may get heated and words phrased or taken in such a way as to offend somebody somewhere.
In this case I went a little too far, though I do think the tone of my responses never went into uncivil territory.I think we all need to keep in mind that when a subject as sensitive as Giffen comes up here, being a little more well-rounded and speaking less in absolutes is always a good idea.
But just for the record: I like the Legacies cover pretty well and damn well look forward to the Annual whenever it comes out!
[ August 01, 2010, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Chief Taylor ]
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
1) Cover of Legacies: It should be pointed out that it's a Giffen-Milgrom job, and Milgrom does reduce Giffen's art to a more basic line, as compared to Al Gordon, for instance. Also, there is a huge chance Giffen was doing a Cockrun homage. So it's all good to me in that respect. 2) Art CAN be discussed, it's not always a matter of taste. Sure, I can prefer Giffen's blocky art to any Jim Lee (and I do), however, there is no point in denying that Jim Lee is a helluva artist. He KNOWS art. He knows proportions, he understands pacing, storytelling and drama. When I say Kevin Sharpe is a bad artist, it is not personal or about taste: he really has a lot to catch up on BASICS. 3) When SILVER AGE LAD says Giffen's art during 5YL was poor, it doesn't make sense: you can say it is complicated, artsy, but POOR. Each page was very meticulously worked on. It WAS complicated (and I agree), but it was always DELIBERATE. There is not a poor issue of 5YL - it is undeniable that Giffen worked like hell on it, there was always a LOT going on. In fact, each issue packs a year or more of Geoff Johns' writing. Again: people may not like the style or the tone (agreed) but to call it poor or 'bad art' is just wrong.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
Silver Age Lad
Part-time member living in another century
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: Ok, my take:
3) When SILVER AGE LAD says Giffen's art during 5YL was poor, it doesn't make sense: you can say it is complicated, artsy, but POOR. Each page was very meticulously worked on. It WAS complicated (and I agree), but it was always DELIBERATE. There is not a poor issue of 5YL - it is undeniable that Giffen worked like hell on it, there was always a LOT going on. In fact, each issue packs a year or more of Geoff Johns' writing. Again: people may not like the style or the tone (agreed) but to call it poor or 'bad art' is just wrong.
Sorry Ricardo but I am not wrong. I have an opinion which you may not agree with but that doesn't make you right and me wrong. For me the artwork during 5YL greatly detracted from some very good storylines. Comic art is supposed to tell a story - if it does not then it is poor IMHO.
Again IMHO, complicated and deliberate do not = good, they = complicated and deliberate, which can be good, bad or indifferent dependining on context. Just because Giffen is a capable artist - which he undoubtedly is - does not mean that anything he does is good, surely? Artist like the rest of us get lazy, have rushed deadlines or have bad periods. IMHO 5YL was a bad period. You may disagree and that is what free thinking is all about. Neither of us are 'right' or 'wrong' we simply have differing opinions.
-------------------- "Our devotion to each other was unexplainable" "You were kids" "No Batman, we were Legion"
From: Ancient Kingdom of Northumbria, UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
KG's 5YL art did tell a story, and told it well - it was not poor art, even if it was to your disliking, SA Lad.
You of course are free to dislike it. But any shortfall was/is not inherently in the art itself, merely in the interpretation/aesthetic of anyone who does not like it.
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not really sure why you guys are arguing about whether someone can call someone's art poor or not.
It's their opinion. It's not like anyone is saying "Nightcrawler is an asshole." They are saying "Nightcrawler's art is poor." Which is a valid opinion.
You guys need to chill out a bit here. Please.
Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
[ August 02, 2010, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Chief Taylor: This is highly speculative, but it could be cool if the new Annual somehow mirrors the earlier one a bit and follows up on Danielle Foccart. We haven't seen her since the TMK/early Legionnaires era have we? And we haven't seen the version that's still in continuity in forever. (She never appeared during the Reboot era, did she?) All I can remember is that she was cured of her Computo infliction. Can anyone clarify her appearances and status post-Annual 1 thru the end of the Baxter era? Also, did she appear at all during Lightning Saga/Superman-LSH/L3W/Adventure backup stories so far that comprise the retroboot?
She was in the reboot but as a little girl or the same age she was when she was first introduced in the legion. Re-read that issue with Both Invisible Kid's fighting on the cover with Charma being the cause...you'll see Danielle.
-------------------- Bring back the super-cousins
From: nyc | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Eryk Davis Ester
Created from the Cosmic Legends of the Universe!
posted
As I recall in v3, Brainy removes the Computo matrix from Danielle, which thus allows him to turn Computo into the majordomo for LSH HQ. I can't remember if we actually see her in any of the issues where Jacques is shown visiting his family, however.
From: Liberty City | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged |
Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
I admit to being a slavish Giff-fan as many know, however I do feel I could state to Keith that I disliked his 'abstract squiggles Trencher period' and that he would probably (hopefully!) take it in good humour...
Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: Now, with that said...would you guys who aren't fans of Giffen's art be this open with your opinions like this if Giffen were a member here?
I'd probably be all passive-aggressive about it and only mention how much I liked the Great Darkness Saga era artwork, and then just diplomatically avoid mentioning further.
Then again, I did totally get called out by Francis Manapul after stating that I thought his first few issues of the Legion were gorgeous, and that the quality dropped off sharply soon after, making me think that having a few months of lead-time to polish things gave a strong initial impression that he couldn't keep up with, so, yeah, sometimes I'll shoot my mouth off without checking if someone's a member...
Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
Hyperpath: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic | Subscribe To Topic
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
