posted
A new Batman and the Legion of Super-Heroes would be kind cool.
Dick Grayson is Titan and Legion age. Night Girl, Shady, T Wolf, Tinya and Cham would fit in easily with just a little redesigning, as would Tellus, Starman, ELad and Dreamy.
Maybe they could call it 'Batman and the LSH Espionage Squad'.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Superboy-Supergirl: i think what he's doing is building up legion interest from the ground up. It maybe too little for us Experienced readers but for those who weren't into the legion this is a bite size snack they'll become hungry for and then it will be a full sized meal that they look forward too.
I agree with this.
More...I think they approach they are taking, and what Johns does typically to great success, is look at what worked for the Legion when it was successful and a flagship of the DC Universe. They are looking at it from a comics audience standpoint rather than a Legion fan standpoint.
The biggest problems with all the fixes since it was broken, aside from DC editorial policy which is the main culprit of course, is that they've had these huge Legion fans writing the book that kept getting their Legion fandom in the way of their writing instincts.
It's been...
Look, Mon-El is Superboy now and a focus of the book, think of all the years we've wanted to see this.
Look, Element Lad is gay(without actually being written as being gay) think of how long this has been wondered about.
That's what they did in the 5YG.
Look, it's the Legion from the very beginning before Superboy was a member that we always wanted to see more of.
That's what they did in the reboot.
Look, it's the Legion starting in progress(just like the original), only still before Superboy joined with that mysterious unchronicled early era still intact, and look, here's that Supergirl era we never got see before.
That's what they did in the 3boot.
Always with just enough needless tweaks to say it's new...while simulataneously acting as if LL, SG and CB saving RJ Brande is some hallowed Legion element and the foundation of it all...instead of the uneventful retcon/untold tale written a decade into the Legion's existence that it actually was.
Not an important element to what made the Legion work, in any era, and neither were any of those other unexplored eras and unanswered questions they've tried to focus on in the reboots. Matter of fact, those eras being unexplored and those questions being unanswered were part of the Legion's mystique. I got excited about them as any Legion fan would...but it's not what made the series go, ever.
That's my take on what they've tried to do anyway...they were given the task of launching a Supermanless Legion(not their fault) and to compensate they tried to launch or build the book around things that were important in Legion circles, and it just didn't do anything to capture the casual fan.
Johns not only doesn't have that handicap with Superman, he is definitely not a Legion fan of the same order as TMK or Mark Waid, and I think his sense of what makes it appeal to the casual fan is the best of any writer to touch the book in decades...he's good at doing that with all characters and teams, it's his strenght as a writer(and he obviously has strengths as a writer).
I think his approach is: colorful characters from the future, Superman(boy), space, time travel, mystique.
And every truly successful commercial era of the Legion has featured those things in abundance.
I'm enjoying it and I'm interested. If this Legion fails it won't be for the same reasons as all the other reboots have.
[ August 14, 2009, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Don't know if its been mentioned, haven't read the entire thread, but am I the only one thinking that the Valentine monster in the lake is Tellus from the backup?
It was okay. Geoff sex up a Lex Luthor for Conner in Valentine, with Tellus saying that valentine would be his greatest enemy. He gave us the "lies to superman" thing. But i don't get anything evil off it, more of a wanting to understand the other parent, his "second father".
Didn't catch the girl on the bridges name, but is this Conner's Lana Lang?
Geoff packed a lot in, no doubt. But the Legion artist was really good, a better fit than Manapul I thought. At one point Manapul's art made superboy look like he was drawn by John Romita Jr. and I never really cared for his art.
Solid c+ on the Superboy stuff.
Solid B- on the legion.
And with what happened with 50, there was really no excuse for the mixup on the boxes for night girl and shadow lass.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
posted
by the way, swamps around my home are full of methane gas. Its one of the "swamp gases" that scientists us to explain wierd lights in the swamp at night.
-------------------- Damn you, you kids! Get off my lawn or I'm callin' tha cops!
quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: If tying a concept to every other concept including the "popular" ones was a better way to get readers in the long-haul then there would be several series (JLA, Titans, etc.) pushing higher numbers than they actually do.
Of course. Comics companies try this all the time to no success. Just slapping them together mindlessly doesn't usually payoff.
That said, the Legion hasn't ever been quite like any other comic property in it's appeal. And it was very much a part of the Superman family at it's peak. The most successful part of the Superman family outside of Superman.
What is obvious to me is that a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime is a tough sell....even if it's got great writing and art.
The Legion has had great writing and art...that really hasn't been the problem. If anything the roster of writers and artists in the past 20 years is more impressive than the roster of the original Legion.
quote: In fact, if this was the policy that DC was actively pursuing for the Legion or any book/series for that matter than they'd all be named BATMAN AND THE ______!
They do that all the time, but throwing Batman a thousand years in the future doesn't really do much for Batman and what he's about. His arena is crime, not space and science fiction.
To me it's if it makes any sense or not. It makes sense to tie Green Lantern to the Legion, it doesn't make sense for them not to have any connection since they occupy the same Universe.
quote: This is all just a bunch of filler crap that the editors are letting their hot writers of the day, Johns and Robinson, indulge themselves in until the next someone stumbles upon the next big thing.
I guess it just depends on if you're a fan of those writers or not. I don't consider either of them to be hacks. I consider Johns to have a full plate and Robinson to be submerged in the Superman continuity right now, but it's not like Robinson doesn't give a damn about Mon-El. He's pretty much the major character his writing career revolves around right now.
quote: Any Comic Book series that really matters and that builds a big and lasting audience need great writing and great (or at least interesting stylistic) art to reach word-of-mouth and casual buyers.
And the Legion has had those things in abundance over the past 2 decades, and hasn't been as successful as it was in the previous two decades when it really didn't have those things in abundance.
quote: Filler issues and confusing continuity (even for the Fans of a series) isn't going to help anyone especially the Legion. [/QB]
I'm as pissed about having to read 60 pages of Conner to get 5 pages of Legion as you are...but I don't think any of what they are setting up is confusing(at least not when compared to the continuity after the Crisis) and I'm definitely interested in it.
I think Johns has a clear track record of setting things up years in advance and I think he is a DC fan to the absolute core that generally puts his heart into his work. I see absolutely nothing in his history to indicate he doesn't take this approach or that he is just haphazardly throwing stuff together.
I think how this all came about is Brad Meltzler brought this Legion back on a lark and DC saw exactly what potential it had and then it became Johns' baby...and what we see is Johns working around some of the stuff set up by Meltzler in the LS arc, the Superman litigation, and a ground up rebuild designed to attract new readers.
I mean, there's no threat we as a fanbase can make to DC...they've already said goodbye in many ways. I mean what is there to do? Not buy the Legion comic?
There isn't one.
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about how great the writing has been the past few years.
Even though I've liked a story here and there the overall writing has been a meandering mess since Levitz left (regardless of the creator's "names"). And even Levitz' last few years on the series weren't that good. Most of the stories were boring or unoriginal or fixed/created a new continuity disaster if/when they ended.
Most of the stories have been about screwing things up more than about "a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime."
Which would actually be a kick-ass series if anybody wanted to produce one again. Which DC apparently does not.
I tend to think if DC tried to do a comic about teen super-heroes in the future and actually had plots that ended with memorable storylines and well-written characters it would sell.
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I don't know why but I have a good feeling about the possibilities for this Legion... partly because this first appearance, though small, was interwoven with the the main feature somewhat. I had expected a disjointed, separate story which would have left Connor fans scratching their heads as to why they were reading about the Legion.
Maybe because it's the original Legion... the one I got hooked on and it had echoes of one of their best adventures... the Mordru in Smallville two-parter.
Mr. Janson is the new Bob Cobb!
All in all it was handled more smoothly than I expected which gives me some hope.
-------------------- The poster formerly known as Carggaphile.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by googoomuck: Is it possible that this is leading up to Kon-El becoming an active member of the LSH?
I really hope NOT. Conner is a teenager. LSH is adult. It would make no-sense, unless LSH became like JSA and started growing new "teen" members. Which in a sense seemed to be the direction Waid sort of implied for Threeboot.
I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion really...since there have been teenagers as part of the roster of adult Legions. Magnetic Kid was added to the Levitz Legion and even the 5YG had characters like Kono...And I'm not sold that the current Johns Legion is supposed to be particularly old either.
While it's been years since the Crisis for Superman, it's only been a few months since the Criis for this version of the Legion. As mentioned in the LS and the Action arc.
In the LS they said it had been 6 months since the Crisis and at the beginning of the Action of arc they said it had been a few months since the Lightning Saga.
I figure this version of the Legion the oldest members are probably 25-28 or so or about the same age as the oldest members of the Teen Titans.
My point is Superboy CANNOT be the leader in a LSH team clearly more mature than he will ever be. He would be at most a trainee into the team, much like Kono, Magnectic Kid etc.
From: Brasil | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ricardo: My point is Superboy CANNOT be the leader in a LSH team clearly more mature than he will ever be. He would be at most a trainee into the team, much like Kono, Magnectic Kid etc.
Ok well since I'm not much of a Conner fan I'm inclined to agree with you on that...however truthfully it's not really accurate, not in comcics or even in the real world....for instance, Alexander the Great was 19 years old when he conquered the world.
Leadership isn't automatically defined by age. Being older doesn't automatically make someone a leader anymore than being younger automatically makes them a novice.
Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Nightcrawler: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about how great the writing has been the past few years.
Even though I've liked a story here and there the overall writing has been a meandering mess since Levitz left (regardless of the creator's "names"). And even Levitz' last few years on the series weren't that good. Most of the stories were boring or unoriginal or fixed/created a new continuity disaster if/when they ended.
Most of the stories have been about screwing things up more than about "a team a thousand years in the future fighting crime."
Which would actually be a kick-ass series if anybody wanted to produce one again. Which DC apparently does not.
I tend to think if DC tried to do a comic about teen super-heroes in the future and actually had plots that ended with memorable storylines and well-written characters it would sell.
NC, we've had pretty much everyone short of Alan Moore or Frank Miller attempt to do this book, in some cases they were extremely knowledgable of the Legion's history and I can't really say the construction of the stories was the problem.
I mean the continuity fixes were done to appease the readership not because that was what the writers particularly wanted to focus on.
And they were rebooted and cast aside because they were basically commercial failures that didn't attract new readers in significant numbers, at least compared to past versions of the Legion.
As for the fighting crime in future...no, it won't sell in substantial numbers, because it's a generic non-unique concept in a fringe genre. Good writing doesn't always sell, especially when it's genre is largely a fringe genre.
There are basically 3 sci fi properties set in the future that have had extended success, and all of them were basically unique at the time of their creation...all had a central character they revolved around...all had a multiple casts and spnioffs that rode the success of the original to moderate success, but in no way truly matched the extended success of the original iconic version...
And more importantly, the primary target of all of them initially were children just entering their teen years or perhaps a little younger....not adults. They became more adult properties as their base grew old with them...but their initial appeal to adult or more sophisticated audiences, it was never the reason for their success.
And more importantly, the spinoffs or secondary casts were arguably more talented, better written and conceptualized, and more sophisticated than he originals...but they never matched the success of the originals due to the fact that they lacked the central memorable character and they weren't unique as the originals were.
Those properties are the Legion, Star Trek and Star Wars....and you could even argue it was the same generation of fans that iconized them all...but without a doubt what sets them apart from the countless other attempts at similar concepts and even their own offshoots, was that they were unique(at least in a space future setting) upon their initial creation, and they all had a memorable character(Spock, Darth Vader and Superman) as a cornerstone of the property.
Good writing isn't enough...it's the concept, it's being unique when originally debuted and it's having a memorable central character...at least when you are talking futuristic science fiction.
The past versions of the Legion in recent memory have lacked both of those things and IMO, that is why they failed, not the writing or the art.
The Legion had it's Star Trek the Next Generation equivalent...it was the Reboot. That wasn't enough for DC(nor was TNG enough for Paramount).
JMO.
I don't think die hard Legion fans really underwstand how unique they are in what appeals to them...not only the fanbase, but the unquestionable Legion Fans that have been writing the book since...oh, Paul Levitz. I applaued your sci-fi purism and that of the other Legion fans...I just don't think there's ever going to be enough of you to support a property on writing alone..at least not with the more commercially successful specter of the original forever looming overhead.
[ August 15, 2009, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Superboy ]
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Like I said, agree to disagree. Most of your points have nothing to do with the argument at hand anyway...
Johnsboot will fail like the rest of them because its derivative of the continuity-altering crap storytelling (as opposed to continuity-enhanced which the fans that are all the rage to bash are asking for) we've been subjected to for decades rather than telling good stories about a great group of characters. Oh, and they have no clue as to what they are doing with this "franchise" other than let Johns and Robinson have a go at them. JMO.
(When did Alan Moore and Frank Miller [a good writer?!?] write a Legion series?) My bad, thanks Rick.
[ August 15, 2009, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
From: San Diego, CA | Registered: Jul 2003
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