cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Blacula: ^ 'Logical sense' is the argument that I think fans of the new Batman costume are using to support it. 'Logical sense' sounds about as interesting to me in comics as reading the adverts.
I read (most of my) comics for the fun and larger-than-life-ness. The more that's getting supplanted by paying attention to what a man would probably really wear if he was actually jumping around on rooftops, the less escapist enjoyment I'm getting out of the medium and the less inclined I am to continue with it.
Well, you can call it "suspension of disbelief" if you prefer. Every consumer/fan has a point where their suspension won't suspend itself no more.
I agree that escapism can be a wonderful thing, but one of the things that bugs the hell out of me IRL is sexism and the visual dissymmetry that's such a big part of mainstream culture. If I tune in to a story of a Utopian future in hopes of escaping from RL issues that bother me, seeing female T&A everywhere and bogus explanations as to why its desirable and laudable instead of cliched and distracting?
Not aiding me in my attempts to escape.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by cleome: If I tune in to a story of a Utopian future in hopes of escaping from RL issues that bother me, seeing female T&A everywhere and bogus explanations as to why its desirable and laudable instead of cliched and distracting?
See, now I want to see the Legion called to a mission on some planet that has gone totally clothing optional. The artist would have to have plumes of smoke and debris or whatever block strategic sections of fleeing civilians, since everyone on the planet would be a nudist.
It might even make a credible (if humorous) excuse for why some Legionnaires might return to earth after the mission to Planet Flappinginthewind, and rethink their costumes to be a bit less 'breezy.'
Registered: Aug 2006
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Set: I *would* rather see her in pants. Dreamy, too, for that matter. Form-fitting pants are sexier than trunks and exposed legs, IMO, so this isn't me being all respectful and enlightened, either.
[goes off to look at that cover of Cham fighting the dragon again]
Ahem. Where were we?
quote:At least they got rid of the fringe tassels. Wow, those were ugly. Dawny needs something sleek, as her wings provide enough of a unique and striking look, and a busy costume with crap hanging off of it just detracts from her own amazing visual.
That's what I was trying to say earlier, but you said it better.
quote:It's gotten to the point of satire, with Shady, who, in six issues, has had to borrow a med-kit *twice* because she's apparently incapable of wearing sleeves (or avoiding getting shot, which, you'd think, would be priority one for non-invulnerable superheroes...).
Yup. Somehow the least physically powerful characters are always the ones who show the most flesh. It's almost as if, at a subconscious level, the people marketing this stuff want to constantly remind women that nothing's more important to most of the world than one's body being on permanent display. (Not your mind, not your health, not your safety. Not your self-respect. Nope. Never mind all that.) Because, hey, if we don't get reminded of it every forty-five seconds, we might forget!
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Yup. Somehow the least physically powerful characters are always the ones who show the most flesh.
Honestly, I think that it stems from those old serial pulps, where the (white, male, square-jawed, clean-shaven) hero would be wearing some bulky spacesuit, and the damsel-in-distress would be wearing a bubble helmet (to protect her from the vacuum of space, donchaknow) and a *bikini.*
Woman-as-damsels, in need of rescue, and the space-bikini's just reinforce that vulnerable 'need to be saved by a big strong man' image, while the men generally wear more sensible outfits (Rokk in his Frankenfurter outfit, as the exception that proves the rule).
As long as the Legion ladies are wearing less than a Baywatch lifeguard, it's credible to show them getting hurt all the time (like Shady and Tinya, in these last few issues, who've needed that medkit a lot more than any of the guys) and needing be all rescued and stuff.
It also doesn't help that the Legion ladies were designed in the '70s, and, unlike Claremont's 'X-Babes' are hardly the heavy-hitters of the team. If the team included less Shady and Dreamy, and more Laurel and Kara*, there'd at least be a flimsy excuse for them to wander around in bellyshirts and buttfloss (not that Mon-El and Kal-El, two of the male powerhouses, aren't two of the least-skin-showing Legionnaires, so even that would be a sad rationalization...).
*Caveat, I like Shady and Dreamy about 50,000x more than Andromeda and Supergirl, so I wouldn't want that, really.
Registered: Aug 2006
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Set: See, now I want to see the Legion called to a mission on some planet that has gone totally clothing optional. The artist would have to have plumes of smoke and debris or whatever block strategic sections of fleeing civilians, since everyone on the planet would be a nudist...
There was an old issue of Donna Barr's The Desert Peach comic that more or less did this. Everyone went surfing in the buff, but there was (almost) always a strategically placed board/hat/ocean wave available at the moment when the stars of the book needed them most.
quote:...As long as the Legion ladies are wearing less than a Baywatch lifeguard, it's credible to show them getting hurt all the time (like Shady and Tinya, in these last few issues, who've needed that medkit a lot more than any of the guys) and needing be all rescued and stuff...
I wonder if anyone's thought to bring this up with Levitz on Facebook. If they ever do, I'd be curious as to what his response would be.
quote: If the team included less Shady and Dreamy, and more Laurel and Kara*, there'd at least be a flimsy excuse for them to wander around in bellyshirts and buttfloss (not that Mon-El and Kal-El, two of the male powerhouses, aren't two of the least-skin-showing Legionnaires, so even that would be a sad rationalization...).
*Caveat, I like Shady and Dreamy about 50,000x more than Andromeda and Supergirl, so I wouldn't want that, really. [Smile]
I think there's room for all kinds of powers. I'd love to see Shady use shadows the way that Sue Storm-Richards eventually came to use invisibility: to build constructs, weapons and the like; turning a passive power into one more suited to combat. The same with the rare occasions that we've seen Phantom turn other people and things intangible.
Oh, hell. It's canon that the first IK had to consciously become more combat-oriented before the rest of the team thought he was good enough to be voted leader. It's not as though the idea's never been used or heard of before.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I only want to say: If the legionnaires girls were not so sexy (Jeckie, Nura, Shady, Imra, Dawny in the 70's) . I would never be a fan of the series. My others favorite female heroes and villains are Vampirella, Lady Death and Tarot. I like the sexy people, it's all. The X-Men have Psylocke, White Queen, Storm, too. And by the way I'm from Spain.
-------------------- From Spain with glamour.
From: Valencia- Spain | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Well, I never would have guessed that, EE! (Just kidding. Your written 'accent' is very specific and clear and I love reading it.)
I'm glad that TPTB removed some of Dawny's fringe. Not just because it was distracting, and it was, or because it was so poorly placed, gads, but it was also cliched for the American Indian. sigh
We've seen Starhaven and her parents a very few times in the past. Bedard changed all of that though in dotREBELS with his invention of Wildstar and her Starhaven. I don't think that Levitz is going to be able to change it either.
I think that if comics want to survive, they need to gain more respect and broaden their readership base to include women/girls.
I joined when the Legion was in the early years and the costumes weren't sexy or sexist, like they are now. My daughter-in-law won't let my 4 grandaughters anywhere near comics.
Guys may want sexy but if mainstream comics want to stick around there has to be some shifting back to a rating that works for everyone.
Keep the Lady Deaths, but keep them in the adult storytelling genre, imo.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I like all of the costume modifications done by Gary Frank. They are character driven and creative. Lightning Lass and Lad, Saturn Girl and Shrinking Violet all look great with their upgrades. I really hated the costumes worn by the last incarnation of the Legion with those bare midriffs as they betrayed no imagination on the part of the artist. Comics are a visual medium, and I like visually exciting costumes. The gold standard for me is Cockrum. My first Legion issue was Superboy #197, so Princess Projectra is burned into my hard drive. Skin is really beside the point, for me. Another favorite costume is the Duo Damsel body suit created by Giffen, and I hated the Cosmic Boy black strapless number as it really didn't fit his character.
From: Tampa, FL | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
^ I loved Cosmic Boy's bustier but you're right in that it didn't really fit his character.
Trying to think of which guys on this team could get away with showing a little flesh -
* Tyroc obviously has/had no problem with it. * Blok also. * Element Lad could get away with it too I think. * Sun Boy ditto. * Timber Wolf as well. * Ultra Boy maybe.
Guys that probably would/should stay covered up -
* Bouncing Boy... * Colossal Boy tried to show off his legs in the 70s and it didn't really look good. With a different costume it could work though. * Brainiac 5 I don't see stripping off. * Cosmic Boy neither (despite history). * Mon-el also seems the fully covered type. * Polar Boy looks better in clothes.
The rest I'm not too sure on.
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: ...I'd also like to see Drake either able to make a more human-appearing energy construct (as he was shown to do briefly later in Levitz' first run)...
He lost that ability after Quislet returned to his home microverse. Now that quislet is back, there should be no reason that Drake can't start to "humanize" his form again. What say you to this, Mr. Levitz?
-------------------- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so the meek[s] shall inherit inherit the Earth, but what about the geeks? I still want Baffin Island--polar bears and all! :)
From: Brampton, Canada | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
On the whole Dawnstar costume controversy, I realize that I'm probably the only one who feels this way, but I'd like to see the return of her Magic Wars era costume/look.
-------------------- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so the meek[s] shall inherit inherit the Earth, but what about the geeks? I still want Baffin Island--polar bears and all! :)
From: Brampton, Canada | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: ...I'm glad that TPTB removed some of Dawny's fringe. Not just because it was distracting, and it was, or because it was so poorly placed, gads, but it was also cliched for the American Indian...
This is one of those issues that's hard to debate; nonetheless, I'm going to try.
Yes, some Native-Americans may feel that fringes on clothing is somewhat cliched, but I assure you that many others do not. Its a matter of different individuals' personal choices, with neither one being wrong.
Now, on the pro-fringes side of things, I know for a fact that some Native-Americans do proudly wear leather jackets that are so adorned. While this may be driven in part by sincere aesthetic appreciation for fringes, I suspect that such garments are also worn out of sense of cultural pride, continuity, and assertion, too.
So, ultimately, I suppose that I'm trying to say this: don't be too quick to dismiss what you perceive to be a cliched fashion feature for Native-Americans. Some will agree with you, but others may take pride in seeing a bit of their culture appearing in the book.
Having said this, though, I hasten to add that I'm glad that you voiced your opinion on the matter, Candlelight, and that this was not meant to chastize you or your fair opinion. Rather, I'm simply presenting an alternative view for our fellow readers' consideration.
Cheers!
[ December 06, 2010, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Mediocre Boy ]
-------------------- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so the meek[s] shall inherit inherit the Earth, but what about the geeks? I still want Baffin Island--polar bears and all! :)
From: Brampton, Canada | Registered: Feb 2005
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
quote:Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress: I only want to say: If the legionnaires girls were not so sexy (Jeckie, Nura, Shady, Imra, Dawny in the 70's) . I would never be a fan of the series.
Great. But some fans find this kind of thing disagreeable, especially the recent examples that are often more exaggerated and hard to avoid than they were years ago-- when so many of us first became fans of this comic or others like it. It doesn't mean that we are all conservative moral crusaders who hate sex. It just means that some of us think there's a time and place for everything.
For every fan who likes these things, there is no calculation of how many other potential fans --especially older female fans-- might be discouraged from buying and enjoying the book because of it.
quote:My others favorite female heroes and villains are Vampirella, Lady Death and Tarot. I like the sexy people, it's all. The X-Men have Psylocke, White Queen, Storm, too. And by the way I'm from Spain.
But there's no reason that every last female in comics has to look like these characters do. Other fans have different tastes and preferences. Why is that wrong?
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Not "every last female in comics" is dressed provocatively. Saturn Girl, Lightning Lass, and Duplicate Damsel are all dressed fairly modestly for example.
And I'm thinking "older females" have never been and never will be the target audience for most comics. You can't blame comic creators for marketing to the largest comic-buying demographic segment, which is younger males.
However, I do agree that it's ridiculous how skimpy some costumes such as Shady's are. And the boob windows need to go too.
IMHO, of course.
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From: Champaign, IL | Registered: Jul 2003
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There was an old issue of Donna Barr's The Desert Peach comic that more or less did this. Everyone went surfing in the buff, but there was (almost) always a strategically placed board/hat/ocean wave available at the moment when the stars of the book needed them most.![[shrug]](graemlins/shrug.gif)
I think there's room for all kinds of powers. I'd love to see Shady use shadows the way that Sue Storm-Richards eventually came to use invisibility: to build constructs, weapons and the like; turning a passive power into one more suited to combat. The same with the rare occasions that we've seen Phantom turn other people and things intangible.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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