posted
The early relationship is really kind of creepy in retrospect. Wildfire was her teacher at that dumb Academy and foisted her on the Legion when he was Legion Leader. A great Mike Grell marked her debut. She has been arrogant and dismissive of the other members since the very beginning. Given the teacher/student dynamic, it's pretty gross to think of his obsession with her and his stalkish behavior towards her. I like the interaction among the characters and am bored to tears by couples who constantly go on missions together. In my perfect world, Dawnstar would be retired and Duplicate Damsel would be a full time, regular member.
From: Tampa, FL | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: Dude, I seriously hate that thing with the passion of a million burning suns. It's one of the things that makes it so tough to get other women to check out superhero comics.
Me: But it's really a great story! There's all this action and mythos and friendship and romance and--
Her: WTF? Why are her damn boobs hanging out everywhere every ten seconds? The Hooters girls look like nuns compared to her! Bleah! How can you read this crap?
Really. We've all stood in the checkout line and seen Cosmo. We all get that you guys dig boobs. Now give the nice superhero lady something practical to wear and let's all proceed with the story, okay?
Honestly, Dawny's not a character I want to see wearing, like, a pants suit or something. As a character visualised by Grell, there's always been a sexy element to her character. I think a character with wings connotes a kind of freedom that would translate to not being uptight about what she wears. Plus, her ability to survive in the extremes of space means she doesn't need clothes for warmth.
That said, I don't care for her current costume. I much prefer her original, classic version. It showed a lot but never seemed as exploitive, probably because that's how we met her.
-------------------- "Suck it, depressos!"--M. Lash
From: The Underbelly of Society | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Dawny's original costume was a classic, I really don't think it would have taken much to update it while still keeping the gist of the original design.
Her new costume (like a lot of the new costumes) is just distasteful. The bit of cleavage she showed before was nowhere near as in-your-face as the tightly bound basketballs that are being shoved through a hole that we get now. I really think it's an ugly ugly look.
I also would like to see her powers expanded on a bit - I don't see why she shouldn't be able to do Flash-level power stunts when she's got the room for it. It would be cool to have a scene for example where she's facing a Khund vessel in outer space and before they've even had a chance to finish commanding an attack, she's disabled all their firing weapons. With her wingspan, it's easy to place restrictions on her needing the space to do stuff like that, but it makes her more than just a tracker (and let's face it, this version of the Legion's women aren't exactly a crew of combat powerhouses).
I do really like Wildfire's new outfit quite a lot, but it is annoying how whenever his casing is ruptured there's no sense of danger to it. Didn't he level the entire headquarters once using his whole power against Omega? Wildfire getting his suit busted seems to be the Legion's equivalent of Red Tornado getting torn apart (I suppose I can see where Meltzer got the idea to make them the same person in that case, lol)
I would particularly like to see Dawnstar more with other Legionnaires. I kind of get a sense that Wildfire is more developed as an individual, but it would be nice to see how Dawny interacts with the other Legionnaires - do Dawnstar and Shadow Lass have any kind of common ground over their strong cultural ties? What sort of relationship does she have with Mon-El when she's one of the few people on the team who can understand what it's like being out there alone in space? We've never really seen any of this stuff explored to the best of my knowledge and she's been around for decades now...
-------------------- Read the alternate adventures of the Legion after Legion of Three Worlds! postlo3w
Registered: Nov 2009
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
Anything I would have to say was probably just said by razsolo just now.
Dawnstar could be an interesting character, if we ever got to see anything other than the Dawny and Drake show. The two of them have been smothered by their non-relationship. (And, it appears that Blok and Mysa have similarly been paired off, and written out. It's like the Legion Moonlighting curse. People hook up, and promptly drop off the face of the earth...)
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I'm still not all the way through the Baxter run, but the point I've gotten to, Dawny's experiences on the Exile world have driven a wedge between her and Wildfire because of her attraction to Jhodan. This is only exacerbated when he changes forms. Does it change significantly from this before the end of Levitz's run?
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Set nailed it---the trend towards coupling Legion members up and then dropping them, or having them only appear together. Blok and White Witch, Duplicate Damsel and Bouncing Boy, Saturn Girl and Lightning Lad, Wildfire and Dawnstar, (previously) Mon-el and Shadow Lass. I find that tedious and consider a major flaw in Paul Levitz's writing.
From: Tampa, FL | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
So many of the guys who write comics and TV, don't know what to do with relationships.
I think, if it wasn't for the hit, 'Lois and Clark', showing that Supes COULD have a real relationship, he'd still be single in the comic world.
The problem with Dawny's old look was that they took it too far with the slit all the way down and open to the point of ridiculousness.
The exaggeration, on her and others, is what's terrible. The artists who draw them have gotten to the point of no respect for the characters. This last couple of issues showed lots of crotch and butt shots, some without the rest of the body or faces. I hate the whole attitude of comics toward women.
-------------------- 'In the twinkling of an eye' I'll be dancing in the sky!
Come, join me!
From: Salem, Oregon USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
What abot all this silly stuff about sexy costume in women? In all the histoy the women always have wanted to be sexy for the men. Its' physical, It´s natural. Now we are in a culture that also values the sexy thing for the men. If they do not like the suits of this legion, since that there make a supernun legion mutants of the space who defend the morality and the good customs. It would sell very much this title... I Like Shady, Dawny, Jeckie (without the mask) costumes. It's time to Saturn Girl back to her pink bikini!
-------------------- From Spain with glamour.
From: Valencia- Spain | Registered: Sep 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Emerald Empress:
quote:...Now we are in a culture that also values the sexy thing for the men....
[looks at watch]
Hey, Empress. Still waiting for DC to put Mon-El in nothing but a banana hammock and some fishnets as he charges into battle. Maybe Ultra Boy can start wearing a French Maid's outfit, too.
Let me know when that happens. Your arguments might have a little more credence at that point, though I'd still prefer T&A (in both genders) kept to a minimum. If I want a sex comic, I'll go out and buy a sex comic. Really. I know how.
In the meantime, you can stop being so rude as to suggest that there's only one "natural" way for men and women to define and depict sexuality. Thanks.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by razsolo: Dawny's original costume was a classic, I really don't think it would have taken much to update it while still keeping the gist of the original design...
I was just looking at those Jim Sherman pages in another thread. Nice though they are, Dawny still looked like she was falling out of the damn uniform a lot of the time. I agree that it's not as bad as the current one, though.
quote:I also would like to see her powers expanded on a bit - I don't see why she shouldn't be able to do Flash-level power stunts when she's got the room for it. It would be cool to have a scene for example where she's facing a Khund vessel in outer space and before they've even had a chance to finish commanding an attack, she's disabled all their firing weapons. With her wingspan, it's easy to place restrictions on her needing the space to do stuff like that, but it makes her more than just a tracker (and let's face it, this version of the Legion's women aren't exactly a crew of combat powerhouses).
quote:I would particularly like to see Dawnstar more with other Legionnaires. I kind of get a sense that Wildfire is more developed as an individual, but it would be nice to see how Dawny interacts with the other Legionnaires - do Dawnstar and Shadow Lass have any kind of common ground over their strong cultural ties?
We don't really know much about Starhaven's culture, do we? Have they ever even set a story on her homeworld? Does she often see other citizens of her world in other places, or do they practice a more benign version of the isolationism that Cham's homeworld is known for?
quote:What sort of relationship does she have with Mon-El when she's one of the few people on the team who can understand what it's like being out there alone in space? We've never really seen any of this stuff explored to the best of my knowledge and she's been around for decades now...
I've seen Dawnstar/Mon-El in a couple of fanfics, but that's it. They would be a natural as friends, though.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
[snip]
quote:Originally posted by Chief Lardy: Honestly, Dawny's not a character I want to see wearing, like, a pants suit or something. As a character visualised by Grell, there's always been a sexy element to her character. I think a character with wings connotes a kind of freedom that would translate to not being uptight about what she wears. Plus, her ability to survive in the extremes of space means she doesn't need clothes for warmth.
I was just looking at some 1970s scans of Black Widow on another board, and I still think just the simple dark leotard, with maybe bright-colored boots, bracelets and a snazzy belt, is one of the coolest looks out there for any female. To me, it's still a classic while all the bared midriffs and huge amounts of cleavage just look forced and cheesy.
I'm just bored with costumes that seem to fetishize female body parts as if that's the most important thing about having a female character in a book. And explanations of it being okay because this character might not need to keep warm in space or protect herself in battle don't wash-- because if that were the case, the men would all be running around with bare legs, midriffs and exposed chests, too.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
^ English is clearly not Emerald Empress' first language so lets be careful about what he really meant before we go labelling him "rude".
I think Emerald Empress is for equal opportunity sexiness - which I support too. I also think there's a difference between sexiness and a sex comic.
I agree that Dawnstar has defintely been drawn a little too 'boobs hanging out'/T&A for the last few issues but I think that's more the artist's fault than the costume's. In Gary Frank's initial design the window was a lot more subtle and covering than it is has become since. I wish the artists would go back to drawing it like that because I really like the costume and would hate for her to lose it over an annoying boob-window issue.
I totally agree with you that the sexiness of costumes is totally one-sided in today's comics though, cleome. Look at what the girls are wearing (or should I say not wearing) and the guys can't even show their arms without some fans complaining.
I'm not sure where Emerald Empress is seeing the cultural advances in allowing men to be sexy in comics because I'm not seeing it. Cosmic Boy's bustier and Tyroc's... whatever-that-was feel like a looooooonnng time ago and I doubt we'll be seeing any of the guys wearing anything as fun and funky as that any time soon.
The movement for guys in comics now is for that boring, realistic, "practical" look - as evidenced by that ugly new Batman costume. All-covering and monochromatic. They've even started to get rid of the pants on the outside of the outfit! Boring!
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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cleome46
or you can do the confusion 'til your head falls off
posted
Blacula, the "human nature" argument gets trotted out a lot to explain why there's so much female T&A in pop culture. I've heard it from fans who speak English as a first language more times than I care to count. Truthfully, I do think it's rude. It's as if the arguers are saying, "Well, this is how everyone is supposed to do it. It's the only right way to do it. What's wrong with YOU?"
Without the overemphasis on exposed cleavage, the Frank costume isn't so terrible, but it's still a little busy for my taste. I like the idea of Dawny's visual dramatics coming mostly from her wings/motion of flight. Too much ornamentation and too many lines and colors on the uniform distracts from that, at least to me.
In the Bat-verse, where few heroes have super-powers and there's a huge emphasis on preserving secret identities and skulking around at night, costumes being all-covering and monochromatic actually makes logical sense. I don't want the Legion to turn into the Bat-verse, but still... What we've got now is its own kind of absurd and annoying.
-------------------- Hey, Kids! My "Cranky and Kitschy" collage art is now viewable on flickr. Drop by and tell me that I sent you.
From: Vanity, OR | Registered: Dec 2008
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Set
There's not a word yet, for old friends who've just met.
posted
quote:Originally posted by Candlelight: So many of the guys who write comics and TV, don't know what to do with relationships.
I think, if it wasn't for the hit, 'Lois and Clark', showing that Supes COULD have a real relationship, he'd still be single in the comic world.
And it doesn't help when you've got fans clamoring for Lois to be bumped off, or even executives arguing that Spiderman isn't 'relatable' because of Mary-Jane and agitating for them to be broken up.
Here's a hint Didio and Quesada, your comic-reading audience isn't *eight years old.* We are past the 'girls have cooties' stage.
The worst, IMO, is when the love interest is used as cannon-fodder to advance the protagonists storyline / characterization, like with Kyle Rayners girlfriend. That's just cheap storytelling, right there.
quote: The problem with Dawny's old look was that they took it too far with the slit all the way down and open to the point of ridiculousness.
I *would* rather see her in pants. Dreamy, too, for that matter. Form-fitting pants are sexier than trunks and exposed legs, IMO, so this isn't me being all respectful and enlightened, either.
At least they got rid of the fringe tassels. Wow, those were ugly. Dawny needs something sleek, as her wings provide enough of a unique and striking look, and a busy costume with crap hanging off of it just detracts from her own amazing visual.
It's gotten to the point of satire, with Shady, who, in six issues, has had to borrow a med-kit *twice* because she's apparently incapable of wearing sleeves (or avoiding getting shot, which, you'd think, would be priority one for non-invulnerable superheroes...).
Of the current team, Tinya's the only one who has any excuse to leave her skin unprotected, since her version of 'invulnerable' trumps even the Kryto-Daxamites (when she remembers to phase, anyway, which, since it's her only power, you'd think wouldn't be an issue).
quote: This last couple of issues showed lots of crotch and butt shots, some without the rest of the body or faces.
Dawnstar does seem to have the new mutant power that her boobs always strain in the direction of the camera. Even when she's flying headfirst at the reader, her boobs are pressing up like some sort of emergency flotation devices, pulling her towards the page...
Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by cleome: Blacula, the "human nature" argument gets trotted out a lot to explain why there's so much female T&A in pop culture. I've heard it from fans who speak English as a first language more times than I care to count. Truthfully, I do think it's rude. It's as if the arguers are saying, "Well, this is how everyone is supposed to do it. It's the only right way to do it. What's wrong with YOU?"
Without the overemphasis on exposed cleavage, the Frank costume isn't so terrible, but it's still a little busy for my taste. I like the idea of Dawny's visual dramatics coming mostly from her wings/motion of flight. Too much ornamentation and too many lines and colors on the uniform distracts from that, at least to me.
In the Bat-verse, where few heroes have super-powers and there's a huge emphasis on preserving secret identities and skulking around at night, costumes being all-covering and monochromatic actually makes logical sense. I don't want the Legion to turn into the Bat-verse, but still... What we've got now is its own kind of absurd and annoying.
^ 'Logical sense' is the argument that I think fans of the new Batman costume are using to support it. 'Logical sense' sounds about as interesting to me in comics as reading the adverts.
I read (most of my) comics for the fun and larger-than-life-ness. The more that's getting supplanted by paying attention to what a man would probably really wear if he was actually jumping around on rooftops, the less escapist enjoyment I'm getting out of the medium and the less inclined I am to continue with it.
But I'm getting off-topic. Back to Dawnstar - I'm not really seeing the busyness in her outfit. It's the traditional all-yellow but with a little brown on the sides. And the tassles have been moved from her crotch to her gloves and boots. Still seems pretty simple to me. Especially in comparison to a lot of the other outfits on the team (most of which I also love - though I generally prefer more intricate costumes e.g. pretty much anything by George Perez, to less imaginative ones e.g. most of Kitson's Threeboot ones). Truthfully, I think Dawnstar's is one of the best updates of an already pretty classic costume I've ever seen.
And to stay on topic and include Wildfire for a moment - after initially really disliking his update, I'm now a big fan of that one too. I think some fans were criticising it at one point because Wildfire wouldn't want to expose his inhumanity so freely. "Who cares?!" says I. It looks great! And in visual medium like comics I'd MUCH rather have to look at something month in, month out that looked fab but maybe didn't make as much sense, to something that the character might have wanted but that looked ridculously stupid and ugly (like that late-Baxter 'human' look he had for a while).
From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2003
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I was just looking at those Jim Sherman pages in another thread. Nice though they are, Dawny still looked like she was falling out of the damn uniform a lot of the time. I agree that it's not as bad as the current one, though.![[Yes]](graemlins/nod.gif)
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