Should the writer of the next installment of the LOSH in 2009 just use the Legion that will be left standing at the end of the events of Lo3W or should he start from stratch? If you want to see who's left standing then who all should be on the team and how have they been affected by the outcome of that mini series? Who should be "dead" or MIA, etc and what should those remaining Legionnaires be? Young? Old? Changed somehow?
I personally prefer a story to unfold slowly and introduce the characters gradually over time versus "ok our story begins with 25 main characters but only 3-10 will actually see any significant development over the first 25 issues or so". For example, I'd like to go back to basics and meet a Legion in 2009 that has the big three (founders) as established trend-setters of this new team plus 2 or 3 other members (let's say Trip, Phantom Girl and Brainy). They could then have us the readers meet "new" members as their stories unfolded (ie: meet Cham for the first time and discuss first-hand any biasis that the future has towards Durlans). Maybe they could wait a few issues in before time travelling to the past to meet Clark Kent for the first time.
What are your own personal views on the subject? How should the new creative team handle the new book? I am curious to hear your opinions.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
They just did this a few years ago, albiet at an accelerated pace.
I honestly don't know. I lean toward, for the first time in nearly twenty years, just having a writer come in an tell stories. Not some over-arcing theme, not some 3 year long story, just tell us some good legion stories...THAT HAVE SUPER VILLIANS IN THEM!
You want a long story, give us the Fatal Five individually, them bring them together as a group. (If that is, you are starting from scratch.)
I want to see the Legion battle Mordru. I want to see Regulus on a rampage. Give us Pulsar Stargrave again. Give us the Super Villians on a tear through the galaxy.
Give us some nice subplots that don't take four freakin' years to come to fruition.
The Legion has built the single largest mythos in comic history as a team. They eclipse the JLA, the Avengers, the Titans...all of them.
Instead of being scared of this, the new writer, whoever it is, should come in balls to the walls and really tear it up. Hit fast and hard and leave the corpse's of the past incarnations in the dust. Duck and weave, and stick and jab. Large group stories, small group stories, entire group stories (and i do think the group should be limited in number to the old 25 at most.
The artist...should be someone that can produce on a regular basis and isn't scared of a large cast. Perez would be ideal, but lets face it, he is an event man now.
I want, adventure, intrigue, action action action!
I want what the legion was originally, a fun, fast, phenominal book, told in a modern style.
Geoff is on the right track, i think. But whoever takes over cant do this "we are going to build slowly and the fans will love it" thing.
Start fast, build fast, stick and move.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
First page of the first issue is a two page double fold-out Perez style battle-royal between Legion and .... someone/thing.
Give me a full Legion with an origin TBD. I can wait to find out where they came from and but not who they are as a team, both in battle and in the clubhouse. Save the name bubbles for the last page and the origins for later issues. let me see the team in action.
Yes I most definitely want them to start in the middle (or even the end) of saving the Universe from a major threat, then in coming issues give me two or three issue arcs while building the overall story.
[ December 14, 2008, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: Yes I most definitely want them to start in the middle (or even the end) of saving the Universe from a major threat, then in coming issues give me two or three issue arcs while building the overall story.
Hell yes. The James Bond beginning, where something cool is happening *right now.* Waid started the first issue with the team all chatty around the clubhouse, and that fell flat for me.
If I'm buying the darn book, I already know who these people are, and even in books where I *don't* know who everyone is (Exiles, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.) I very much prefer the first issue to hit the ground running, and I can find out who the hell Nocturne and Gamora are later.
Shooter did this better, starting with an action sequence on Triton, and then taking us back to the headquarters for some character development.
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
The Wild Wild West opening. Half the time, you wouldn't get who was what until halfway through the show.
This is a great technique for not having a lot of exposition, but giving the reader what they need while moving the story.
Yes, we want characterization, we want a little downtime here and there. But mostly, we want to see team in action. The downtime will come naturaly in the stories themselves.
Whoever takes over, i suggest they go back and read how Levitz did it. No, that doesn't mean repeat his "formula" and tell the same stories. It means learn how he scheduled his beats, adapt them for themselves, and move things along.
Largest problem i saw with the 3boot was that the stories tended to be about the "clubhouse". Now, Waid has an interview up at Comic Book Resources right now that talks about what took place then and how it hamstrung him and Barry, but the new writer needs to hit the ground at mach 3 with a hard burn behind them.
Posted by cleome on :
I really liked the opening to the Waid/Kitson run.
[shrug]
Maybe it's a girl thing. Dunno'.
Whether or not you like the whole youth-rebellion angle (and I know a lot of old-timers didn't, for various reasons) that was the overriding theme that was supposed to (I presume) separate the run from other Legion interpretations-- as well as from other team books.
They wanted to make the theme absolutely clear right away, and they did.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
I actually do like the idea of spending, like, half or three-fourths of the first issue on a big slugfest between the Legion and, say, Starfinger V and the New Taurus Gang or something. A good writer can actually do a pretty good job of introducing the characters, their basic personalities, and powers in such a situation.
I'd make the second issue a tryout issue, however.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Largest problem i saw with the 3boot was that the stories tended to be about the "clubhouse".
That's always a problem for me. Unless there is a darn good reason for a group to be trapped in one environment (Deep Space Nine or Babylon 5, where the majority of the action takes place on the station, Voyager, where the majority of scenes occur on the ship, etc.), the action shouldn't be confined to one static location.
Especially in a setting as rich and colorful as the 31st century!
Issue one of the threeboot, we see the outside of the HQ and the inside of the HQ, and there's some talking about social issues. Issue 38, we see instead the methane slopes of Triton and the dome-city/ski-resort full of aliens that live, work and play there, suffering under an alien invasion! (And there was plenty of characterization!)
One of the strengths of storylines like the Great Darkness Saga or the LSV war is that they used exotic locations to great effect (Daxam in one case, Orando in the other).
Posted by matlock on :
I think Set's on to a good idea here. The Legion is one of the DC titles on which the writer and artist can really go for broke. It's not like Batman where at least 80% or more of the stories are going to be in Gotham. Look at the Adventure stories and they were throwing ideas around constantly.
I also couldn't agree more with rickshaw1 that there should be more stories with actual Supervillains. More of the Legion sitting around HQ bracing for another invasion would probably kill the concept for good. I am not a convert to John's vision for the Legion yet but at least the Action story used some traditional Legion concepts like the "outlaw Legion" and angry Legion rejects.
I would also like to see the violence toned waaaay down. I don't like seeing planets destroyed and bodies exploding on a regular basis. I want the rule against killing firmly reinstated (even as applied to cannon fodder alien invaders.) If a writer can't tell a good Legion story with that rule in place then go write "The Authority" or something. DC could really highlight the Legion as a unique title if they could put a little fun back into it.
Posted by Matthew E on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by matlock: I also couldn't agree more with rickshaw1 that there should be more stories with actual Supervillains. /QUOTE]
That's fine... but it shouldn't necessarily be the same old supervillains. I've read all the Lightning Lord stories I need to. I've overdosed on the Fatal Five. I don't care if I never see Starfinger or Universo again. I especially never want to see Dr. Regulus again. The Legion's rogues gallery is mostly a big snooze to me. Let's have someone new and interesting!
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: That's fine... but it shouldn't necessarily be the same old supervillains. I've read all the Lightning Lord stories I need to. I've overdosed on the Fatal Five. I don't care if I never see Starfinger or Universo again. I especially never want to see Dr. Regulus again. The Legion's rogues gallery is mostly a big snooze to me. Let's have someone new and interesting!
I'd definitely like to see more super-villains who are sort of 'plugged in' to the setting. There was an issue where some mysterious space pirates where attacking ships and always getting away, and it was determined that the pilot for the pirate vessel was a Bgtzln who would use a machine to phase the entire ship for their daring getaways. That was cool. It would also serve as a contrast to how heroic a choice figures like Luornu and Tasmia have made if we were to see some villainous Carggites or Talokkians. (Obviously, we've already seen villainous Imskians, Braalians, Titanians, Durlans, etc.)
I wouldn't mind seeing some of the newer stuff get used as well. Theena was the best new character in the entire threeboot, and there was a suggestion in Barry's art that she was intimately linked to the Dominators, somehow. It would be neat to see her brought back.
Terror Firma are potentially useful characters, and could be returned in a hardcore villain role, perhaps with an arm-less and blood-crazed Elysion as their new boss.
While I'm not terribly familiar with the stuff that happened between the Baxter years and the threeboot, I'm sure there has to be a compelling villain or group in there somewhere that could be gussied up with a new coat of paint.
Not every 'blast from the past' has to be Mordru or Universo or the Fatal Five. And, despite the success of Darkseid, I'm pretty sure that I don't want a lot of 20th century villains showing up in the 31st century. (Yes, R'as al-Ghul, that means you!)
I wanna see both new original villains, but also some old faces (if not necessarily old faces that anyone expected to see again...).
Posted by matlock on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: That's fine... but it shouldn't necessarily be the same old supervillains. I've read all the Lightning Lord stories I need to. I've overdosed on the Fatal Five. I don't care if I never see Starfinger or Universo again. I especially never want to see Dr. Regulus again. The Legion's rogues gallery is mostly a big snooze to me. Let's have someone new and interesting!
I wouldn't mind seeing the old Legion villains return, personally. When was the last time there was a legit Starfinger story, not counting the tease of one in the Zero Hour Legion? I'd love some compelling new villains, but not at the exclusion of the old ones. It's not their fault that there hasn't really been a notable villain introduced in 10 years (or more like 20.) There have been maybe half a dozen Universo stories ever, and only one since Zero Hour that was actually in continuity. I think where there really needs to be some developemnt is in the second tier of villains. We need more crooks, schemers, spies and evil geniuses that you can build a one-off or two parter around. You can't build much of a short story around Universo or Mordru, and if they start with a 6 or 10 part story I'm going to scream. From that perspective I would be happy to keep the big threats spaced out at once every few years so that you might go 5 years or more between Mordru stories but without dropping him altogether. Thinking about it a little more, I think a few more stories can be had just from using the futuristic/outerspace environment. Remember the old short story with Colossal Boy and Shrinking Violet in space? The "threat" was not from a villain but a bizarre faux-asteroid creature that nearly swallowed Colossal Boy whole. It was a clever story that was as much a mystery as a superhero story.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: I wouldn't mind seeing the old Legion villains return, personally. When was the last time there was a legit Starfinger story, not counting the tease of one in the Zero Hour Legion?
There were a couple in LSH31C. In fact, I take back what I said to this extent: they can use the animated version of Starfinger every once in a while. He's good times.
quote: I'd love some compelling new villains, but not at the exclusion of the old ones.
Okay, not complete exclusion. The Fatal Five are good villains; just overused. I don't mind Mordru or the Time Trapper showing up once every five years or so.
quote:It's not their fault that there hasn't really been a notable villain introduced in 10 years (or more like 20.)
Last twenty years: Lemnos. Elysion. Singularity and the Credo. Jeyra Entinn. The Blight. Tangleweb. B.I.O.N. Alexis Luthor.
Those are just off the top of my head; I think I could find a couple of others if I really tried.
quote:if they start with a 6 or 10 part story I'm going to scream. From that perspective I would be happy to keep the big threats spaced out at once every few years so that you might go 5 years or more between Mordru stories but without dropping him altogether.
Exactly!
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Last twenty years: Lemnos. Elysion. Singularity and the Credo. Jeyra Entinn. The Blight. Tangleweb. B.I.O.N. Alexis Luthor.
As someone who doesn't think a whole lot of most of those (barring those he's never heard of, obviously), I think that kind of proves his point.
It's been a pretty dry run, when the biggest mastermind villain of the threeboot had the power to be forgotten, and, apparently, has been.
Posted by cleome on :
[raises hand in support of more Alexis Luthor and more Jeyra Entinn.]
It was sad that Alexis only made it into the actual show one time (plus one cameo, I think). She should have been good for at least a two-parter. Just one more frustrating aspect to so much of Season 2 being all-boys-all-the-time. Glad to hear that she and the Disco-Stu Starfinger got some play in the comic before it was canceled, at least.
The thing that's awesome about Jeyra Entinn is that she functions as something of an "opposite number" to a major character like Imra. If you've ever wondered "how could somebody wield so much power over other sentient beings and NOT be corrupt, abusive, and highly creepy," you get the answer in Jeyra: A great many people would be corrupted. Some of them would embrace corruption, but they wouldn't think of themselves that way, necessarily.
That makes her pretty effective as a foe, on top of the fact that she's already powerful physically.
Also, back in the day, George Freeman had a great satirical strip where he deplored comic editors, writers and artists who wouldn't explore our world, but only "used it as a cheap backdrop." This applies just as well to future as to past and present. If we've got this diverse stew of planets, societies, and cultures, I wanna' see a few of 'em at length and in detail-- at least sometimes. Not just as a "cheap backdrop." In the hands of competent people, a great way to reveal a character's personality is to drop them into an unfamiliar environment and see how they cope, or don't cope.
[ December 15, 2008, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
quote:Originally posted by matlock: It's not their fault that there hasn't really been a notable villain introduced in 10 years (or more like 20.)
Try more like forty. Most of the standard Legion villains were created in the sixties. With a couple of exceptions (Tyr, the League of Super-Assassins) the 70s villains were mostly blah, and Levitz mostly recycled old villains in the 80s, and his few originals were mostly unmemorable, except maybe Zymyr (and Darkseid, who wasn't primarily a Legion villain). 5YG gave us... uh, Vrykos? He wasn't really used enough to make an impression. B.I.O.N. was really just a recycled Computo/Composite Superman combo. The early reboot tried to give us a couple, though Tangleweb is the only one that strikes me as particularly memorable. DnA pretty much gave us generic alien hordes, and Waid largely continued the practice, though Elysion was probably worthwhile. Lemnos wasn't a bad idea for a villain, though his story was pretty weak.
Posted by Spellbinder on :
I guess it all depends on what happens at the end of L3W. I mean, if we are left with an integrated team of old and new and some in between, then I say just go from there and start telling stories. There will be some learning curve for the Legionnaires and readers alike, seeing how this mixture places off each other, but I see no need to start from ground zero again. It's been done twice already in recent history, to mixed results.
I think anyone who's reading Legion these days already has an idea of what they're all about, so might as well just hit the ground running.
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: It was sad that Alexis only made it into the actual show one time (plus one cameo, I think). She should have been good for at least a two-parter. Just one more frustrating aspect to so much of Season 2 being all-boys-all-the-time. Glad to hear that she and the Disco-Stu Starfinger got some play in the comic before it was canceled, at least.
Unfortunately Alexis didn't make it into the comic book. She should have, though! But Starfinger was awesome.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Also, back in the day, George Freeman had a great satirical strip where he deplored comic editors, writers and artists who wouldn't explore our world, but only "used it as a cheap backdrop." This applies just as well to future as to past and present. If we've got this diverse stew of planets, societies, and cultures, I wanna' see a few of 'em at length and in detail-- at least sometimes. Not just as a "cheap backdrop." In the hands of competent people, a great way to reveal a character's personality is to drop them into an unfamiliar environment and see how they cope, or don't cope.
That's an interesting thought there. Back in the '60s and '70s, for the most part, the Legionnaires looked and acted like kids of their time, even the 'aliens' being little more than humans with different colored skin.
That's changed quite a bit, but even the more alien-looking aliens (such as Gates) ended up being not at all alien in mindset (ooh, he's curmudgeonly and a communist!).
Posted by cleome on :
Originally posted by Set:
quote:(snip) Back in the '60s and '70s, for the most part, the Legionnaires looked and acted like kids of their time, even the 'aliens' being little more than humans with different colored skin.
That's changed quite a bit, but even the more alien-looking aliens (such as Gates) ended up being not at all alien in mindset (ooh, he's curmudgeonly and a communist!).
That's plenty alien, considering.
There's obviously a certain level of alien-ness that we can't imagine, just as there's all kinds of futuristic stuff we can't imagine. Hell, I can't even believe that there are people right down the block from me that don't like dark chocolate or Anita O'Day records. Even though I know it's true, I still don't quite believe it.
[grin]
But I still appreciate when creative people make an attempt to be, y'know, creative. To cite another example, I'll always treasure the wrought-up rant by a largely non-humanoid alien in Evan S. Dorkin's old Hectic Planet comic. He's, shall we say, being hit on by a very human lady-of-the-evening. When all graceful attempts at brushing her off fail, he finally screams at her that:
A) He's broke
B) He doesn't find human women at all physically attractive,
C) Five out of an infinite number of non-Earth species in whatever-their-version-of-the-U.P.-is-called can physically mate with humans and out of those five only two or three care to (emphasis mine).
See, I love that kind of stuff. It forces a beloved and useful but very common trope in light sci-fi completely off the page-- at least for awhile. It makes the storyteller at least try to do something different.
[ December 15, 2008, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by cleome on :
Originally posted by Matthew E:
quote: Alexis didn't make it into the comic book. She should have, though! But Starfinger was awesome.
I was leafing through one of those collections at the bookstore the other day. Someday I'll be solvent enough to go back and get it.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I think the Legion should follow Cleopatra's example and be rolled out in one *big* carpet at the feet of Julius Caesar.
Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
please don't start from ground zero again. they can't. they are already a butt of jokes for the multiple reboots. however, i hope they don't keep the aged, grizzled geoff johns' lsh. i want youth and optimism in the future! not more dystopia and haunted faces. the cartoon got so much right in reinterpreting the lsh for 21st century audiences.
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
Interesting, how much of what's being said doesn't focus on continuity. There's a definite consensus around beginning with action, explaining afterward, emphasizing supervillains, and using alien worlds.
I'll be the first one to defend the threeboot - it was almost the Legion series I wanted to see. But it wasn't good on supervillains. Some superhero series (Batman, etc.) focus as much or more on the villains. 60s Marvel popularized this technique, but it seems that team books usually don't get the best rogues' galleries. I want that to change, starting now.
Use familiar villains if you wish, but some of them need to be made better. I always thought the Legion of Super-Villains, not the Fatal Five, should have been the Legion's designated archenemies, but they haven't been sufficiently or consistently developed to make them interesting. Unlike, say, the X-Men, the Legionnaires have no common characteristic. But as the Legion is the only series set in its time, this works. However, villain teams need distinguishing characteristics; they can't be random collections of villains.
quote:Originally posted by Set: I'd definitely like to see more super-villains who are sort of 'plugged in' to the setting. There was an issue where some mysterious space pirates where attacking ships and always getting away, and it was determined that the pilot for the pirate vessel was a Bgtzln who would use a machine to phase the entire ship for their daring getaways. That was cool. It would also serve as a contrast to how heroic a choice figures like Luornu and Tasmia have made if we were to see some villainous Carggites or Talokkians. (Obviously, we've already seen villainous Imskians, Braalians, Titanians, Durlans, etc.)
Alright, but don't have the Legion treat them as anything unusual. Recognize that species powers are, by definition, not exceptional. In fact, demythologize super-powers in general.
Avoid 20th century villains.
More focus on villains will also go with less focus on Earth. The Legion should be galaxy-trotting, going to where the action is.
Another weakness of Waid's run was his use of armies (Lemnos' army and the small-l legionnaires rallied by Invisible Kid). In a world of supers, numbers don't mean anything. These battles were important to his run, but confusing to the reader.
Explain what's the same and what's different, in a way that works for the longtime reader and the new reader alike. But assume we get the point quickly. The second time Waid's Element Lad explained that his transmutation wore off after a minute, I was really annoyed. You've already told us what he is, now show us who he is!
Embrace the large cast. Don't even have a "core".
Recognize that even the Legion should rarely be able to affect galactic-scale events. It should be done more like Star Trek than Star Wars: change the fate of a planet at most, not a galaxy. Star Wars doesn't really have a storytelling engine; that sort of scale isn't viable for an ongoing series. That's what DnA didn't get. Don't give us a series of endless escalation until it becomes impossible to top. Bigger stories aren't better.
I don't want another Star Trek clone future (the original and reboot), nor an undeveloped one (the threeboot). Don't make a feel-good series in any sense of the word. Don't rely on nostalgia for characters. Don't rely on making the future just 50s America with SF gadgets because you think we're too dumb to get anything else. Play up the SF, and pay attention when you do to SF newer than the 60s!
Now, some more continuity-concerning stuff:
I don't want to see a continuation of the Action Comics Legion because they aren't "real" to me. I won't read their story.
I don't want to see a merged Legion for the same reason I didn't want to see Legion of Three Worlds in the first place. I don't want the Legion done metafictionally. I generally prefer DC characters to Marvel characters, but I am sprocking sick of DC's metafictionality. I don't want different continuities of any series to interact. When DC editorial said "No alternate earths", it was a good idea. Not that I mind parallel-universe fiction, and it should in fact have been allowed. What I don't like is most Earths that existed pre-Crisis, and all Earths like them. Metafictional earths. I wouldn't mind, for example, Elseworlds as parallel earths. Or, for that matter, Earth-3, because it's basically the Mirror Universe. But no Earths which could replace the main one. And absolutely no assigning a story to an Earth after it's written. DC should have instituted a ban on metafiction. (And, for that reason, don't let Grant Morrison anywhere near the Legion!)
Don't use a 20th century viewpoint character. Let us get to know the Legion from their time's point of view. However, a couple years in, pull your ace in the hole. The Legion lands in Kansas in the 1950s (or even the 1930s). This is Superboy's time. Not the present. It's the time in which he works best. Don't bother explaining this; just go with it. (I can't claim credit for this idea, unfortunately. It was tossed up on Newsarama a while back.) Now he comes to the future, and we're hit once again with how strange it is. We learn more about it that we ever knew.
[ December 16, 2008, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Triplicate Kid ]
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Funnily enough, i always thought the future was Superboy's time. I never cared for the solo stories when he was a kid.
About the only concensus i am seeing is that we want shorter arcs, we don't want the characters sitting around a clubhouse all the time, and we want action.
And honestly, and this may sound heretical, i would be willing to see "less stellar art" if you want to call it that, if and only if the stories came out on time, and there was more than a small core of characters able to be portrayed.
Jimmy Janes may have not been the "superstar" that some other artists were, but from what i remember, he did solid storytelling on time. Some of the stories let him down in my opinion. I'm not saying i am willing to pay for crap, but i don't want three issues to come out on time, and the fourth one two months later, with huge mega splashes and a tin foil cover.
I realize that this is a large cast comic. And that seems to scare off a lot of artists, but most stories told have around six to ten protagonists, and that isn't much more than say JLA or JSA. There may be some months were the artist needs a little lead time help...fine, no problem with that. But please, just get it done.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Triplicate Kid: I always thought the Legion of Super-Villains, not the Fatal Five, should have been the Legion's designated archenemies, but they haven't been sufficiently or consistently developed to make them interesting.
While I love the Emerald Empress, and see potential for Tharok/the Dark Man, I never was really wowed by Validus, and both the Persuader and Mano are dramatically hindered by their powers. They can't actually ever *touch* a Legionnaire without killing them, which means that they are limited to spending their entire villainous careers swinging around impotently failing to connect, blowing up / cleaving through set pieces and bits of scenery and / or threatening / killing civilians.
Boring.
The Super-Assassins or LSV work better because they *can* whip out the lethal force, but can also function in more 'comic-book' fights where people just blast each other and get knocked around a lot.
Given a choice, I'd rather see the Super-Assassins or even people like Terror Firma shown more, than many of the LSV. Mekt works better, IMO, as a solo character to contrast with Garth. A whole 'Legion' of villainous counterparts pairing off against the Legion just feels kinda cheap to me, as it would if the X-Men's main adversaries were a team consisting of some dude with optic blasts and a lady telekinetic / telepath and a crazy dude with claws, all imperfect copies of the current team.
(More 'original' LSV members like Zymyr, Tyr, Ron-Karr and Spider-Girl, on the other hand, are cooler, because they aren't copies, like Magno, Chameleon Chief, etc.)
Posted by Triplicate Kid on :
For a while, I wanted to see an LSV that was either
The Legion's Mirror Universe (Earh-3/Earth-2/whatever) counterpart
or (and this is really crazy)
The Legion's own future selves. I have no idea how that would work. I got the idea from mixing up the names of the Silver Age Adult Legion and the LSV (don't remember if it was my mixup or someone else's).
quote:Originally posted by Set: While I love the Emerald Empress, and see potential for Tharok/the Dark Man, I never was really wowed by Validus, and both the Persuader and Mano are dramatically hindered by their powers. They can't actually ever *touch* a Legionnaire without killing them, which means that they are limited to spending their entire villainous careers swinging around impotently failing to connect, blowing up / cleaving through set pieces and bits of scenery and / or threatening / killing civilians.
Boring.
The Super-Assassins or LSV work better because they *can* whip out the lethal force, but can also function in more 'comic-book' fights where people just blast each other and get knocked around a lot.
Characters built too strongly around offensive power often aren't that useful.
One thing I forgot to mention. When I said
quote:Embrace the large cast. Don't even have a "core".
I wanted to point out the time at which I find the Legion interesting.
I'm not interested in an older Legion. I'm also not interested in seeing the very beginning of the Legion, or the time immediately after or before it, unless it's radically different from the way it's been told before. Why? Becuase the Legion's origin story was a later addition, and it never felt very important. A "pre-Year-One" Legion story couldn't work because the Legionnaires didn't meet until the origin! Also, nothing especially weird happened to the founders to motivate them to be heroes, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The Legion wasn't planned in advance. This means that, to me, the founders have little special significance. It was a case of writers taking the easy way out when they established that the first Legionnaires Superboy met were the first Legionnaires. And an early Legion has too few members to feel like the Legion to me. There's a reason the reboot rushed to draft as many members as possible. The Silver Age Legion didn't get a regular series until their membership was in the double digits.
Posted by EmeraldEmpress on :
Jeyra Entinn was a rebooted Esper Lass. Too much bad girls from Titan...Saturn Queen, Esper Lass, Mentalla, the reboot Imra's sister Janice (Future villain)...and now Jeyra Entinn.
Posted by Wonder Lad on :
Just chiming into a thread for the first time...
I personally don't see what the big deal about having an adult Legion is. Personally, I could give a rat's iota about Reboot or 3boot. I want the real Legion with newer, younger characters thrown in. Granted, I'm somewhat of a traditionalist in that regard (same with with soaps. Give me Bob, Kim, & Lisa on ATWT over any of the teen twits any day). But I don't see why the original teen has to be presented as exceptionally aged. It's the future, for goodness sakes. They can be written about at any point in their lifeline. I do, however, think the original team is probably in their late 20s now (roughly, I presume, the same age as the now adult Teen Titans). The newer, younger characters can be those popular Reboot, 3Boot characters who didn't have an original counterpoint.
Also, I think it would be wise to have 2 separate series (hell, 3 series would work for me). First, you have the "core" series which is the current telling of Legion tales with the full cast of charaters. Second would be their run in Adventure which (at least IMO) should be a retelling of the Legion's history as it now fits into current DCU continuity. Let's have the new Adventure start out roughly at where the original Adventure #300 started up. You've got most of the long-established characters available. Then you go forward in something akin to an extended "Year 3" or whatever, filling in the blanks and smoothing over the roughness and sillyness of the silver age. Think of it as a futuristic 'All Star Squadron' where that series (one of my all-time favs, btw) took established Golden Aged stories & characters and worked their stories in and around them, often fleshing out what had already been established. Essentially, the two series would cover where they are now and how they got there.
As long as I never have to hear the phrases "5 Year Gap", "Archie Legion", or "Rebooted AGAIN?!" ever again.
Posted by cleome on :
quote:Originally posted by EmeraldEmpress: Jeyra Entinn was a rebooted Esper Lass. Too much bad girls from Titan...Saturn Queen, Esper Lass, Mentalla, the reboot Imra's sister Janice (Future villain)...and now Jeyra Entinn.
Well, a lot of characters were rebooted/revamped. I don't have a problem with that so long as it's well done.
It would be nice to see more villainesses (and heroines, for that matter) who actually get to punch and hit stuff. But there's still a lot of retrograde thinking that if females punch and hit, they aren't "feminine." Whatever that really means. Hence the tradition of mental powers as a way for females to be "girly" and still powerful.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: Well, a lot of characters were rebooted / revamped. I don't have a problem with that so long as it's well done.
I never cared for Esper Lass, being more fond of the better interpretations of Saturn Queen / Eve Aries. (The new Lo3W version, who seems to be an awestruck Superboy-Prime groupie, but otherwise looks sedated? Not doing it for me.)
Jeyra Entin was, IMO, a better character than Esper Lass. (And it's not every day I have something nice to say about Waid's contributions to the Legionverse.)
quote: It would be nice to see more villainesses (and heroines, for that matter) who actually get to punch and hit stuff. But there's still a lot of retrograde thinking that if females punch and hit, they aren't "feminine." Whatever that really means. Hence the tradition of mental powers as a way for females to be "girly" and still powerful.
I call this 'Counselor Troi syndrome.' The guys are Klingons, men of action and super-strong androids. The gals are a doctor and an empathic counselor who wears frilly dresses on the bridge (and Tasha, who broke that stereotype, but died so fast that it didn't get far.
When several of the Legion ladies have to carry guns (Atom Girl, recently Saturn Girl) or learn martial arts (Shadow Lass, Triplicate Girl, Atom Girl) to 'contribute' as much as male characters like Ultra Boy, Star Boy, Chameleon Boy and Colossal Boy are contributing *without* guns or intensive combat training, it get's on my nerves a bit.
(Obviously, the Legion has some great exceptions as well. Invisible Kid is the 'helpless female' of the Legion, and Brainy does the inconceivable and deals with problems by sealing himself up in a protective cocoon and thinking them to death.)
Back in the 'female heavy hitters' thread, there were quite a few suggestions for how to bring some oomph back to the 'gentler sex.' Not just Supergirl / Andromeda clones either, as characters like the White Witch, Kid Quantum II or Lightning Lass can dish out the firepower.
Posted by cleome on :
Set:
(snip)
quote:I call this 'Counselor Troi syndrome.' The guys are Klingons, men of action and super-strong androids. The gals are a doctor and an empathic counselor who wears frilly dresses on the bridge (and Tasha, who broke that stereotype, but died so fast that it didn't get far.
Preach it, Brother.
(How many seasons did it take before Troi finally wore a regular uniform ? Feh.)
The only way females will get more worthwhile page and/or screen-time is if
A) There's more emphasis on ES-type stuff involving infiltration and undermining or
B) Creative teams get over the long-outdated taboo against women using their fists. To read the history of Supergirl is to see how often they undermine it when they DO use it. She's always giggly, boy-crazy, conflicted. Then we're all supposed to get misty-eyed when she sacrifices all for her cousin. (And I still hate that stupid story twenty years later. I don't care how well-drawn it was. Pppphhht.)
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by cleome: A) There's more emphasis on ES-type stuff involving infiltration and undermining or
That would be neat, to see some seriously pro-active Espionage Squad stuff. Ultra Boy and Lightning Lad and whomever can be out there blasting stuff and taking names, while the more subtle Legionnaires like Phantom Girl, Atom Girl, Invisible Kid and Chamelon are getting the actual mission done, under cover of all the flash and furor of their 'big guns' providing a distraction for their more surgical work.
quote: B) Creative teams get over the long-outdated taboo against women using their fists. To read the history of Supergirl is to see how often they undermine it when they DO use it. She's always giggly, boy-crazy, conflicted. Then we're all supposed to get misty-eyed when she sacrifices all for her cousin. (And I still hate that stupid story twenty years later. I don't care how well-drawn it was. Pppphhht.)
Anytime a secondary character ends up being sacrificed (or stuffed into a refrigerator, or whatever) to advance the plot of another character, it bugs me.
It doesn't have to be all female characters getting killed off to advance their boyfriends / husbands stories (although that's freakishly common. The heroes wife dies and he turns into Mad Max / the Punisher / etc.). In Buffy, various male characters would get kidnapped, beaten up, maimed / mutilated or even killed, and it was always done so that we could get a reaction shot of Buffy looking sad and / or pissed-off. That bugs me no matter which way it goes.
No Cordelia, the lesson to take away from running over that girl on her bike is *not* what an awful traumatic experience it was for *you.*
Posted by rickshaw1 on :
Heck, i'd much rather be hit by a man than a woman any day. Guys are used to sluggin' each other. But the women i know have these tiny little hands and because i'm big, they have noooo problem drivin' it home. Compact about 800lbs/per square into the size of a handball. That crap hurts, lemme tell ya.
And my sister. She had this way of smackin' me with a limber hand that stung like all getout. You could hear the skin sizzle when she did that.
So, you wanna show women smackin each other, go to it. I prefer less brutality, so i'll stick with watchin guys pummel each other in the ring, Posted by matlock on :
quote:Originally posted by Wonder Lad: ...I think it would be wise to have 2 separate series (hell, 3 series would work for me). First, you have the "core" series which is the current telling of Legion tales with the full cast of charaters. Second would be their run in Adventure which (at least IMO) should be a retelling of the Legion's history as it now fits into current DCU continuity. Let's have the new Adventure start out roughly at where the original Adventure #300 started up. You've got most of the long-established characters available. Then you go forward in something akin to an extended "Year 3" or whatever, filling in the blanks and smoothing over the roughness and sillyness of the silver age. Think of it as a futuristic 'All Star Squadron' where that series (one of my all-time favs, btw) took established Golden Aged stories & characters and worked their stories in and around them, often fleshing out what had already been established. Essentially, the two series would cover where they are now and how they got there...
That's what they planned to do with the Legionnaires title all those years ago, and decided against at the last minute. It probably would have worked better than the SW6 scenario, which I think was the final nail in the coffin for the TMK era, even though it took a few years for the body to stop twitching.
If they do somehow go with a "young Legion" book, I hope they play up the action and romance aspects and keep the trauma and and teen angst to a minimum.
Posted by cleome on :
Originally posted by Set:
quote:That would be neat, to see some seriously pro-active Espionage Squad stuff. Ultra Boy and Lightning Lad and whomever can be out there blasting stuff and taking names, while the more subtle Legionnaires like Phantom Girl, Atom Girl, Invisible Kid and Chameleon are getting the actual mission done, under cover of all the flash and furor of their 'big guns' providing a distraction for their more surgical work.
Oh, Hell YES. I forget which Legion site it was that had the group divided along the lines of:
"Who can pick up a mountain and move it to another planet ?"
"Who can make everyone in the solar system not notice that somebody's picking up a mountain and moving it to another planet ?" [grin]
quote:Anytime a secondary character ends up being sacrificed (or stuffed into a refrigerator, or whatever) to advance the plot of another character, it bugs me.
Well, it's supposed to give the story depth, I suppose. Look at us ! We're playing for real here. The problem being that it's not the only way to be "real," but writers fall back on it because it's the most expected way to be effective. I mean, I always liked the retooling of Projectra during Levitz' run, but I'm still not sure that the only way he could have overhauled the character was by gruesomely offing her spouse.
quote:It doesn't have to be all female characters getting killed off to advance their boyfriends / husbands stories (although that's freakishly common. The heroes wife dies and he turns into Mad Max / the Punisher / etc).
[rolleyes] Don't forget all the D*sn*y heroes/heroines bereft of Mommies, as well.
quote:In Buffy, various male characters would get kidnapped, beaten up, maimed / mutilated or even killed, and it was always done so that we could get a reaction shot of Buffy looking sad and / or pissed-off. That bugs me no matter which way it goes...(snip)
I always feel guilty for not liking that show more. I suppose writers are in a bind because if a character in an adventure story is doing dangerous things, then eventually somebody's going to get hurt or killed. If it's always "red shirts" that these things happen to, nobody feels an emotional investment and the injury/death has no meaning. OTOH, yes: It's too easy to fall into the trap of doing something horrible to one character just so another can experience "growthfulness."
Aside from the overall squick feeling I get from the woman-in-'fridge trope, I'd add that it invites the reader/viewer to consider one kind of motivation more "emotional" (and more valuable) than another;When I'm not sure that should be the case. Is it really more worthy to value the loss of your close friend over the loss of a total stranger ? Maybe the really heroic soul is the one who joined up and stays strictly out of feeling a sense of duty;The one who refuses to differentiate between their own loved ones and the loved ones of that anonymous neighbor across the street.
Ehhh... don't mind me. I have too much free time.
[ December 18, 2008, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: cleome ]
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
quote:Originally posted by rickshaw1: Heck, i'd much rather be hit by a man than a woman any day. Guys are used to sluggin' each other. But the women i know have these tiny little hands and because i'm big, they have noooo problem drivin' it home. Compact about 800lbs/per square into the size of a handball. That crap hurts, lemme tell ya.
And my sister. She had this way of smackin' me with a limber hand that stung like all getout. You could hear the skin sizzle when she did that.
So, you wanna show women smackin each other, go to it. I prefer less brutality, so i'll stick with watchin guys pummel each other in the ring,
So true. I've stood between male students about to go at it, that outweighed me 50 pounds each but today saw one girl pounding anothers head into the ground.
If they're going to show the women fighting it best be realistic. I've yet to see one that didn't involve hair pulling, scratching and booby punches.
I however disagree with the implication empathic roles and powers are less than brutal ones. It's the reserved use of them that's the problem IMO.
Posted by cleome on :
Blockade Boy:
quote:If they're going to show the women fighting it best be realistic. I've yet to see one that didn't involve hair pulling, scratching and booby punches.
[snerk] Yeah, well that means a lot of unisex groin-punching/kicking, too. Also nosebleeds.
Posted by Set on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: If they're going to show the women fighting it best be realistic. I've yet to see one that didn't involve hair pulling, scratching and booby punches.
On the other hand, this is the Legion of Super-Heroes. I'm pretty sure I don't want to see them going all Jason Bourne/James Bond with the brutal fighting styles... Some of them are supposed to be fairly nice people (Luornu, in particular, was a really nice person, who turned into some sort of Trijutsu pain-dispenser, which bugged me a lot. Dawnstar or Shady, I could see being brutally efficient in combat, but sweet Lu? Yikes. Give her the power to go all Madrox, if she needs to be 'buffed,' don't turn her into some KGB-trained Stephan Seagal wannabe!).
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
I kind of forgot to put the winky thing in my post.
![[LOL]](graemlins/lol.gif)