Per Lad Lad’s request in his “Roundtable” thread, here is a “Revisited” review of Legion of Super-Heroes (4th series) # 5, March 1990. Lardy considers this issue to be one of the most significant in Legion history. It’s difficult to argue with that assessment, as much of what came after—the post-Superboy “reimagining,” two reboots, and a current attempt to restore the Legion to some semblance of its pre-Crisis glory—has roots in this story.
In LSH # 5, writer-artist Keith Giffen and his collaborators (dialogue writers Tom and Mary Bierbaum and inker Al Gordon, all of whom are also credited with “story assist”) attempted to work around the restrictions placed on them by DC. These restrictions mandated that Superboy and Supergirl be removed not only from present Legion stories, but also from the Legion’s past. That is, the super-cousins could not be referred to in any future Legion story, and the Legion’s entire history had to be revised to exclude them. This would be a Herculean task for any creative team, as Superboy and Supergirl had not only served as the thousand-year-earlier inspiration for the Legion, but they had also been the “star” members of the Legion for years. Excising them from Legion history was like rewriting United States history without George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
Nevertheless, the deed had to be done. In the post-Crisis universe, Superman never had a career as Superboy and Supergirl (or at least the original version of her) did not exist. So Giffen, the Bierbaums, and Gordon were sent on a suicide mission: Anything they did was bound to infuriate long-time fans, for whom the Legion’s history was as sacrosanct as the 30th century or any of the Legionnaires. Indeed, some fans argue that DC permanently crippled the Legion in 1990, and that the franchise still struggles, 18 years later, to replace or reinsert the elements that once made the Legion one of DC’s best-selling titles.
My goal here is to offer a sort of literary interpretation and evaluation of LSH # 5. By examining the story in depth, I hope to shed light on what Giffen, etc., hoped to achieve and how successful they were in this effort. As I’ve done before, I’ll be discussing my original impressions of the story from when I first read it, so far as I remember them, and comparing them to how I see the story now. How does the story hold up after all this time? Have time and changes in my own life (or yours) yielded a different perspective?
As with my previous “Revisited” threads, this article has three sections: a summary of the story, a discussion of general impressions (which is further subdivided into discussions about the plot, characters, art, etc.), and, finally, a verdict. Be forewarned that SPOILERS are freely spoiled.
Please add your own insights and interpretations as the thread progresses. Alternate views are always welcome.
[ June 11, 2008, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
I. Summary
In a universe ruled by Mordru, Andrew Nolan and Rond Vidar are part of conspiracy with Mysa, one of Mordru’s concubines. Mysa tells Nolan stories she has learned from Mordru about a previous universe in which his desire to rule was kept in check by “the Puppet Master.” The demise of the Puppet Master caused that timeline to unravel and enabled Mordru to emerge as absolute ruler of this universe.
Nolan, in turn, passes these stories on to Vidar, who becomes convinced that the previous timeline can be restored. Per his plan, Mysa taps into Mordru’s mind as the emperor sleeps and relays elements of the old timeline (such as the role of “the Durlan Knight” and his “mercantile powers”) to Vidar through a mindlink. However, Glorith, the emperor’s first wife, has been spying on Vidar and secretly helps him tap into Mordu’s mind, though the effort nearly kills Vidar.
Glorith, who wants to grab power for herself, convinces Vidar to let her complete the ritual so she can take the Puppet Master’s place in the restored timeline. Meanwhile, Mordru’s servant, Mano, learns of the plot and arrests Mysa, but Nolan intervenes. While they struggle, Glorith completes the ritual. As Mordru awakens, the universe “whites out” of existence.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
II. General Observations
A. Evaluation of the Plot
1. When this story appeared in 1990, I experienced the worst “wtf” moment (although that euphemism wasn’t used then) in my seventeen years as a Legion fan: LSH # 5 was so different from everything that gone before, even from the first four issues of Giffen’s “Five Years Later,” that I was confused, annoyed, upset, and frustrated. Bad enough that Giffen had already made such abrupt changes to the Legion—how did this story fit into it all? It was too much for me to take when I picked up issue # 6 and realized that this new “reimagination” was permanent. Issue # 6 was the last Legion issue I would buy for four years.
2. Looking back on it now, and in light of everything that came after (the rest of 5YL, two reboots, and L3W), I must admit that LSH # 5 accomplishes its purpose quite well. It serves as a bridge between what the Legion was and what DC mandated it become: A Legion free from any Superboy influence. LSH # 5 not only accomplishes this purpose, but it does so in a manner that remains true to the previous history of the LSH. That is, it follows the Mordru/Time Trapper cosmic balance set up by Levitz to its natural conclusion. If the Legion’s old history had to be jettisoned, it’s reassuring to note that Giffen did so the most loving and respectful manner possible.
3. Perhaps the most impressive feat of LSH # 5 is that it accomplishes everything it had to in a single issue. Giffen and his collaborators establish a well-thought-out fantasy world in which magic rules. Oppression caused by an absolute dictator permeates every scene. (This is even more impressive since Mordru doesn’t appear in the story except briefly at the end.) Surveillance is everywhere, and Mordru’s enemies live under the constant threat of being caught. Nolan and Mysa carry out their clandestine meeting in a cathedral. Nolan himself is a substitute for another agent who has recently been captured. Even Vidar’s secret meetings with Nolan are observed by Glorith. All of this is shown through several interweaving scenes that build suspence: Will Vidar succeed? What is Glorith up to? What is Mano’s role in all this? Will Mysa get caught?
4. Although the build-up is very successful, the resolution falls flat. Nolan’s climactic battle with Mano remains unresolved, missing the opportunity for an emotionally satisfying ending. Yes, the universe ends, we get that. Yes, Nolan goes back to being the deceased Ferro Lad (who never marries and has children, as his counterpart does), we get that. But it would have been nice if Nolan had become fully aware of what he was giving up. Perhaps he could have realized that Mordru’s tale of “the sacrifice [of] the knight with no face” was his own story. One might suppose that he realizes this anyway, but it would have been great if we’d been allowed to see it. After all, he remains skeptical of Vidar’s plan throughout the story and may not have realized what restoring the old universe would mean for him and his family.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
B. Use of Characters
1. Another aspect of this story that I found jarring when I first read it was the absence of current members of the Legion’s cast and the focus on relatively minor characters. Giffen had only just dismantled the Legion and was starting to rebuild it with Cham, Rokk, Jo, Violet, and a few others. They are not seen in Mordru’s universe, however; instead, our heroes are Rond Vidar (heretofore Brainy’s intellectual sidekick and son of Universo) and Andrew Nolan (the long deceased Ferro Lad). Mysa (the White Witch) appears in a smaller role, but that’s it. (A few other Legionnaires are mentioned in passing, however.) As such, this doesn’t feel like a Legion story. The tight focus on a small cast of characters is almost antithetical to Legion stories and something I would expect to find in a back-up tale instead of book-length feature. Giffen obviously has very good reasons for doing this—the smaller cast highlights just how “alone” they are in opposing Mordru—but the effect is still jarring, lo these many years later.
2. Fans have showered praise upon this issue for its portrayal of Andrew Nolan, and justifiably so. The twice-doomed masked man comes off as the issue’s most fully realized character and someone we can easily identify with. He is skeptical of Vidar’s plan and reluctant to go up against Mordru, yet he does so because he sees no choice. He has a wife and family to protect and must toe the line between trying to keep them safe and doing what is right. This decision is forced upon him when he must chose between sparing his family and saving Mysa from Mano. As a hero, he makes the right choice. (Incidentally, it is never made clear if he retains his mutant ability to turn himself into iron in this universe; we are given no reason to think that he doesn’t, particularly since he remains disfigured, as he was in the old universe, but he is never shown using this ability.)
3. Rond Vidar, too, displays heroism, but it’s harder for me to accept him as the main hero of the book. Although he appeared in numerous Legion stories and had often acted heroically (in helping the Legion against his villainous father, for example), his personality had never been fleshed out enough that I could identify with him or where he’s coming from. For that matter, this story does not fully establish who he is in this new universe. In the old universe, he was a scientist, but science has been defeated by magic. Is he a folklorist (i.e., someone who would recognize “the myths, the rhymes [. . . the] internal consistency” of Mordru’s tales), a fellow magician, or something else?
4. Mysa, as I said, has a minor role and is not fleshed out as a character. One telling exception is her going back to the cathedral where Mano arrests her. There was no reason for her to go there (i.e., she didn’t have to meet with Nolan), so we must conclude that she went there to pray (as she is seen doing). It is somewhat ironic that the White Witch (a term associated with paganism) would be shown as Catholic in this story. But she’s not the only convert. (See Section D.4 below.)
5. The villains also serve purposes of the plot, but do so in unexpected ways. Glorith is well cast as Mordru’s treacherous first wife and a power-hungry schemer in her own right. It is telling, I think, that she “wins” in the end instead of the heroes. This is in keeping with Giffen’s practice of having the Legionnaires face overwhelming odds and being only partially successful in overcoming them. In this case, the heroes can only succeed by accepting help from someone who has her own “evil” agenda but also the power to accomplish their goal. The Legionnaires would frequently have to make “deals with devils” during 5YL, and this serves as Giffen’s metaphor for growing up and accepting the complexities of life.
Mano, the other main villain, is seen here in a context outside of the Fatal Five. Interestingly, he is drawn without his bubble helmet, but his face still appears as a black void.
Mordru, as mentioned previously, appears only at the very end, but his presence is felt throughout the story. This device has literary antecedents (Samuel Beckett’s play Waiting for Godot, for one, relies on a major character who never appears), and it is used to great effect here.
C. Evaluation of the Art
1. Except in rare instances, I’ve never been a proponent of nine-panel grids. For the most part, they slow the story down and focus the reader’s attention on minor details. (Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons did this effectively in Watchmen. They used details such as a chewing gum wrapper as important links of continuity between scenes.) Nine-panel grids tend to work best with “talking head” scenes, and there are plenty of those here. The scene in the church on page 3, for example, repeats the same panel five times, changing only the dialogue. This effectively shows how still the two characters must be in order to avoid being seen talking to one another. Another effective use of the 9PG is found on page 4, when Mordru’s tale of “the Knights of the 30” is related through symbolic images and poetry.
2. Unlike most of Giffen’s 5YL output, the images in this story are fully rendered and immaculately designed, a welcome reminder of his early Legion work (“Great Darkness Saga,” etc.). Particularly effective is Nolan’s mask, which preserves the basic design of his old Ferro Lad mask, but is apparently made of cloth or leather, colored grey instead of white, and contains a protruding nose bar.
The cover of this issue also stands out as example of Giffen’s creativity. No characters are visible, only an hourglass with a scene of typical 30th century buildings in the top glass. As snow (not sand) sinks into the bottom glass, we see medieval structures—a clearly symbolic indication of how the old universe has been replaced by Mordru’s universe.
3. I would love to say something specific about Al Gordon’s inks, but I cannot—save that it doesn’t’ draw much attention to itself. This is a good thing, as inking, like dialogue, should serve the story instead of the other way around. In this respect, Gordon does an expert job of finishing Giffen’s vision.
[ June 10, 2008, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
D. Evaluation of the Script
1. Tom and Mary Bierbaum have been praised as the best dialogue writers the Legion ever had, and this issue fully supports that assessment. The issue opens with a full page “Proclamation” that reads as if it were pulled straight out of a medieval fantasy novel: In four short paragraphs, it tells us everything we need to know about the setting, how much freedom (or lack thereof) people have under Mordru’s reign, and how they should give thanks for being so “wisely and benevolently ruled” (a wonderful touch of irony there).
2. The Bierbaums also demonstrate their knack for poetry by distilling the Legion’s old battle against the Sun-Eater (Adventure Comics # 352-353) down a to nursery rhyme with cryptic references: The Knights of the 30, under the sign of he Jewel, united they stood ‘gainst the death-cloud so cruel.
3. Another noteworthy aspect of the script is how those cryptic references are used to recast familiar Legion characters into half-remembered and not-so-precise terms. As mentioned ‘the Puppet Master” is the Time Trapper (because, presumably, he had created the Pocket Universe and been pulling the strings of the Legion from the beginning). “The Durlan Knight” is R.J. Brande, the Legion’s benefactor, who in the post-Crisis universe, was a 20th century Durlan (and member of L.E.G.I.O.N), who had been pulled from his own time by the Time Trapper to use his “mercantile powers” to bankroll and organize the LSH.
(It is interesting, incidentally, that Giffen chose to focus on the Time Trapper and Brande as the key figures in the Legion’s founding and, therefore, the preservation of the old timeline. The Legionnaires themselves seem almost incidental; truly, they are “puppets.”)
4. Not to overlook the Bierbaums’ normal contributions: Dialogue works best when it flows so naturally that it does not draw attention to itself. This was their particular strength. Look, for example, at Nolan’s monologue on page 14:
“How did I get mixed up with him? Sure, he can afford to believe. All he stands to lose is his life. A husband—a father—doesn’t have that luxury. . . Merciful God. He did it. He really did it. Welcome to walking dead, Andrew Nolan.”
In a few short sentences, we learn an awful lot about Andrew Nolan. We learn that he deeply distrusts Vidar despite their alliance. We are reminded that he has a family. We are also reminded that he’s a practicing Catholic (as was suggested by his making the sign of the cross in the cathedral). And then we have the wonderful irony of “walking dead”—a reference to Andrew’s past and future fate.
But if Nolan distrusts Vidar, it’s interesting to note that the latter is also wracked with self-doubt. Whereas Nolan seems to rely on a strong belief in God, Vidar (who does mention God twice), seems to have nothing else to believe in but restoring the old timeline:
“I must be a lunatic. I’ve got to be crazy. But so help me, I do believe it. . . . Listen to me! How can I believe in this fantasy?! . . . Because if I don’t, I’ve got nothing” (8).
Dialogue conveys interesting contrasts between these two men, how they believe in different things, and their different motivations for fighting Mordru. One might assume that if it weren’t for Mordru, these two men would have nothing to do with one another.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
E. Themes
1. The major theme of this story is faith. God, as noted above, is mentioned various times by different characters. It would be easy to dismiss these references as mere swearing (“Merciful God!” “Jesus!”), and that is how such references are commonly employed in the story. But the sheer number of times God is mentioned along with the setting of key scenes in a cathedral suggests that Giffen has another motive for including them. Is he casting himself in the role of God and asking us to have faith in him and his efforts to restore the Legion’s timeline? Or is he saying that belief in God is what people (including heroes) turn to in times of overwhelming oppression?
The latter is, of course, historically verifiable. Parallels can be drawn between the depictions of faith in this story and those of early Christians, for example, who suffered persecution in Rome and elsewhere. What’s interesting, though, is the inclusion of this theme in a mainstream super-hero comic book. DC and Marvel typically avoided discussing faith in their comics or showing their heroes adhering to particular beliefs in order to avoid offending potential readers with other beliefs. (The Legion’s large cast afforded one notable exception, however, when Colossal Boy was established in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s to be Jewish.) But in this story, Andrew Nolan appears to be clearly Catholic, as does Mysa. (Rond’s affiliation, as noted above, isn’t defined.) Giffen can “get away” with this depiction because LSH # 5 is a one-shot story featuring temporary depictions of these characters that will never be seen again. But the real question is why did Giffen choose to use such overt depictions of faith in this story?
(Another interesting question is why would the all-powerful Mordru allow a cathedral, where people can worship a God other than himself, to remain standing?)
It’s hard to speculate on Giffen’s motives, but I think it is not unlikely that he was asking fans to have faith in him as he reconstructed the Legion’s timeline to accommodate DC’s mandate. It is interesting to view the heroes in this story (particularly Rond) as stand-ins for Giffen and his collaborators (Andrew and Mysa=Tom and Mary), while Mordru serves as a stand-in for the all-powerful DC, which bends fictional “reality” to its will. (You can draw your own conclusions as to who Glorth is supposed to be.)
2. A secondary theme has to do with death and rebirth. Just as the present Legion universe has to end for the old one to be reconstructed, so, too, does Glorith have to die in order to be “reborn” as a powerful deity in the restored timeline. Her agonizing death is analogous to the feelings of many fans as we went through the death and rebirth of our beloved Legion.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
F. Errata
1. The term “Knights of the 30” (used cryptically to refer to the Legion during its battle with the Sun-Eater) apparently refers to the pre-Mordru 30th century and not the number of Legionnaires. There were only 24 Legionnaires at the time of ADV. # 352-353, and even if one counts the Fatal Five (who aided the Legion in this, their initial appearance), that’s still only 29 “Knights.”
2. The story is surprisingly self-contained, although it does rely on plot points and scenes from other stories that are not explained. For example, the scene of the Durlan (future R.J. Brande) being yanked out of the 20th century while in mid-conversation with Garryn Bek and being replaced by the amnesiac Phantom Girl (henceforth Phase) is taken from an issue of L.E.G.I.O.N. ’90. Not only are we not told who these characters are but it’s not clear what is happening. (Some sort of “sunburst” lines drawn around Tinya might have indicated that she is suddenly materializing.) The effect is confusing even to me, who read the L.E.G.I.O.N. story. What effect might it have had on potential new readers?
[ June 10, 2008, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by Reboot on :
You seem to have missed B. out somewhere Posted by He Who Wanders on :
III. The Verdict
LSH # 5 is a well-crafted and lovingly executed story. It strives hard to deal with the landmines placed in the Legion’s path by the mandated removal of Superboy and Supergirl. Giffen, in typically abrasive fashion, does not sidestep those landmines. Rather, he dives headlong into them, killing off what is left of the old Legion universe in order to reconstruct it anew. This approach is not meant to satisfy every Legion fan (and Giffen has frequently expressed indifference towards the feelings of fans), but it is meant to salvage the best of what the Legion was and to lay the groundwork for a new direction.
LSH # 5 succeeds in this purpose quite well. Fans may debate whether or not this story constitutes a reboot or a retcon, or whether such drastic measures were even needed. But Giffen (for whom “drastic measures” should be engraved on his business card) wanted to get people talking about the LSH again. He did this by shaking things up in the most radical manner possible—though arguably not as radical as the actual reboot that would occur a mere four years later.
I would argue, however, that Giffen assigned for himself the harder task by not wiping the slate clean and starting over. His own “reimagining” required more thought and care in deciding what to preserve of the old timeline. It required a keen understanding of the LSH as a concept and a thorough knowledge of its characters and history in order preserve the ideals, personalities, relationships, and settings of the LSH as much as possible. Many of these ideals, personalities, etc., are still recognizable in LSH # 5, embodied by Andrew Nolan (who symbolically represents every other Legionnaire), in spite of its radically altered universe.
Though many fans dismiss 5YL for various reasons (darker storylines, aging heroes, incomprehensible art), there should remain little doubt that the balance of Giffen’s run on the title (through # 38) and its continuation by the Bierbaums (through # 50) built on the rich tapestry of Legion history that they lovingly, respectfully, and skillfully preserved in this story.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot: You seem to have missed B. out somewhere
Thanks. It's fixed.
Posted by MLLASH on :
WOW... what a great review. Thanks, HWW.
I was going to refrain from rambling further, but the review compells me...
I too remember the feeling of "WTF" after # 5 (and, in fact, after issues 1-4 as well). I didn't really get "INTO" (as in really enjoy) the 5YL era until about issue # 24, the intro of the SW6 team... my interest spiked and soon blossomed into... well, the LSH fan I am today. But the fact is, with the exceptions of issues 11 and 13 (which were and still are ass-shatteringly hilarious), the first 2 years of the 5YL relaunch were VERY hard for me to enjoy for the most part.
Nowadays, of course, I feel quite a bit differently (except for the "Quiet Darkness", which might be my least-favorite LSH story EVER) and most of the "Legion on the Run" crapfest.
[ June 10, 2008, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: MLLASH ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
You're welcome, Lash.
Posted by Mystery Lad on :
I remember realizing that #5 *had* to be a bridge between Mon-el's Prime-like punch and whatever changes were ahead.
To me, it read very much like an annual, or WHAT IF/ELSEWORLDS entry.
That said, I loved it to pieces. Aside from some Nura/Glorith confusion, I think of this as one of the most fully realized single-issue tales in the LSH's history.
I recall being disappointed that Andrew wasn't going to be featured in the 'rejumped' team when it started back up in #6 and looked in vain for the character for many months thereafter.
Thanks for the review, HWW!
Posted by Jerry on :
Hats off to HWW. A quick review of the review: This is your best so far, and they've all been excellent. Well written, insightful, detailed, informative, balanced, with definite opinions, and a heck of a lot of fun to read. You have a real talent for this. Somebody, somewhere ,should be paying you tons of money to this. In the meantime, we're lucky to have you here.
What a special issue this was. I remember being so confused when I read it, but realizing, at the same time, that I was holding something very profound in my hands. It was a strange and beautiful package. I had to go back and read it again and again trying to make sense of it. I remember being confused by Glorith, at first. I thought she was Nura. The most amazing part is how well Mordru's universe was established in a single issue. When you relaized at the end, or at the beginning of #6, that the universe was gone already you just wanted to go back again. Isn't that what they tell musicians - always leave the audience wanting more?
Thank you for pointing out the care and respect with which Tom and Mary treated the history of the Legion, and just how difficult that must have been. It's the quality that I love best about the 5YL stories. The care they took to honor the history is just so obvious - unprecendented really. It's something that too many 5YL critics don't see or don't acknowledge. This issue is probably the best example of it.
Mysa's appearance, here, changed my opinion of her forever. She was always one of my least favorite Legionnaires. I connected with her. for some reason.
[ June 10, 2008, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Jerry ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by MLLASH: I too remember the feeling of "WTF" after # 5 (and, in fact, after issues 1-4 as well). I didn't really get "INTO" (as in really enjoy) the 5YL era until about issue # 24, the intro of the SW6 team... my interest spiked and soon blossomed into... well, the LSH fan I am today. But the fact is, with the exceptions of issues 11 and 13 (which were and still are ass-shatteringly hilarious), the first 2 years of the 5YL relaunch were VERY hard for me to enjoy for the most part.
Nowadays, of course, I feel quite a bit differently (except for the "Quiet Darkness", which might be my least-favorite LSH story EVER) and most of the "Legion on the Run" crapfest.
I had a similar reaction to the first two years of 5YL, Lash. As I mentioned, I didn't start reading the LSH again until four years later, around # 40, but I later went back and bought everything I'd missed.
For me, I really start to feel "connected" to the 5YL with Dirk's tragic fate and the arrival of the SW6 Legionnaires (an idea I initially detested, but some wonderful scenes were done with it, such as old Jo encountering young Tinya, and young Jan and Vi pondering how they would "turn out").
I loved the adult depictions of the LSH, and I think that's what's missing from the first two years of 5YL: Giffen spent so much time rebuilding the Legion and establishing new characters that the familiar relationships got lost.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Lad: Aside from some Nura/Glorith confusion, I think of this as one of the most fully realized single-issue tales in the LSH's history.
It's interesting that you and Jerry both mention this confusion, Todd. I thought Glorith was Nura, too, and, even on re-reading the issue a few days ago, I still thought it was Nura at first!
quote:Thanks for the review, HWW!
You're welcome.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Jerry: Somebody, somewhere ,should be paying you tons of money to this.
Well, I'm open to offers.
Seriously, thanks for the kind words, Jerry.
quote:What a special issue this was. I remember being so confused when I read it, but realizing, at the same time, that I was holding something very profound in my hands. It was a strange and beautiful package. I had to go back and read it again and again trying to make sense of it.
Me, too. LSH # 5 is so dense, in fact, that it took me several drafts just to write the summary. Every time I re-read the story I found I'd missed or misinterpreted something.
The wonderful thing is, this is the kind of story that rewards careful re-reading, a treat found throughout Giffen's run on 5YL.
quote:Thank you for pointing out the care and respect with which Tom and Mary treated the history of the Legion, and just how difficult that must have been. It's the quality that I love best about the 5YL stories. The care they took to honor the history is just so obvious - unprecendented really. It's something that too many 5YL critics don't see or don't acknowledge. This issue is probably the best example of it.
Giffen was truly blessed to have the Bierbaums along for the ride--and so were we.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Wow, HWW! I agree with Jerry--this revisitation exceeded my already-high expectations when I asked you to consider doing it! It is so good that I'm going to dig the issue out tonight and reread it, so I can give a response not borne entirely from my memories of it from the last time I reread TMK (2-3 years ago). I have a feeling you picked up on some things I'd never considered!
Meanwhile, HWW, I was surprised you had dropped Legion for 4 years after issue #6 as I'd always envisioned you more of a pro-5YL guy (though never as much as, say, myself, Jerry or Ricardo). I'm curious to know how you made your way back to those stories and how the ride was for you. Please share!
Meanwhile, I've gotta comic to read! Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Wow, HWW! I agree with Jerry--this revisitation exceeded my already-high expectations when I asked you to consider doing it!
Thanks, Lardy. I look forward to your detailed response.
quote:Meanwhile, HWW, I was surprised you had dropped Legion for 4 years after issue #6 as I'd always envisioned you more of a pro-5YL guy (though never as much as, say, myself, Jerry or Ricardo). I'm curious to know how you made your way back to those stories and how the ride was for you. Please share!
Shortly after Giffen left, I picked up an issue on the stands, flipped through it, decided I liked the art (which was a heckuva lot easier to follow than the murky images in the nine-panel grids), so I decided to give it a try.
I stayed with LSH again until # 52, I think. I can't remember much about that year's worth of stories, although I reread some of them not too long ago (when Lash was doing his reviews of that period). I was particularly turned off by the zombie Legionnaires issues, a trite plot line that was even less convincing that time.
I was also undergoing some changes in my personal life, as I alluded to in my first post. I had just graduated college and was about to enter grad school, so I had a lot of stress and not much time (or money) for comics that re-tread old ground. I was into Milestone Media, the Ultraverse, and various non-super-hero comics that offered something new. Among the DC's at the time which fit that description were Spectre, Black Lightning (first few issues) and Sandman. I had dropped virtually every title I had been following since childhood, including Avengers, Iron Man, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, not just the Legion. As I grew in different directions, they just became less satisfying.
In retrospect, I think 5YL was something I had to grow into. Giffen is really telling a very sophisticated story here, with many layers and events that require careful reading. He is taking a more literary approach in terms of getting the reader to think about the Legion in different ways. I think my college experiences helped me appreciate and understand this approach.
Posted by insanelad on :
The 5YG introduced me to the legion (via Ayla's entry in the Who's Who in the DC Universe), and for that I will always love it. As you said HWW, that was a time of great stress and upheaval for me and getting into comic books, and particularly the Legion gave me an escape and some stability.
I wasn't aware of the Legion's history until some time later (and I had a great time traveling to London and picking up armloads of Legion back issues), so I guess that issue 5 of the 5YG and its deeper meanings slipped past me for a long time. You have pointed out something significant though - if we see it as a reboot, it was established VERY quickly, but it shows that it CAN be done. Could you imagine 52 or Infinite Crisis done in a single issue?!
It's an odd, unsettling issue that seems to be very un-Legion, but at the same time, at its heart are the Legion's ideals. The main pieces are there, as is the spirit that some people are willing to go to any length or even sacrifice comfort and safety to do what's right. Even Glorith has to make a huge leap of faith that the spell will work, and we're never quite clear whether she remembers these events in the 'new' universe (part of me likes to think that she doesn't and the Mordruverse Glorith does die, thereby making her sacrifice even more significant). All the heroes in this story have to trust implicitly, even when they might express uncertaity or distrust of one another.
I think it also reinforces one of Giffen's themes for the run - that of adults making difficult, morally ambiguous choices that have ramifications. These aren't teenagers any more, and while that's where the Legion started, I in no way think that's where they should stay - isn't one of the most commented things on here about characterisation? Isn't it a more faithful characterisation to let these people that we love grow, develop and mature physically as well as emotionally?
I love the 5YG stuff - yeah, some parts aren't as great as others - the Khund War and Red Mist aren't my favourites - but they're still good stories. Issue 5 is just another thread in what became a very rich tapestry.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Alright, I reread the issue as promised and am ready to chime in with some of my own thoughts.
As expected, I found myself enjoying my revisitation of this story a lot, though I did find that my memory of the story had been a little fuzzy (as I suspected after reading HWW's comments).
For one thing I now believe the story works a little better if you read it right after #4's climactic battle between Mon-El and the Trapper. Read alone, it loses a little of its emotional impact, I think. If you read it on the heels of #4, you can see how that world came about and, ultimately, that Mon-El's desire to destroy the Trapper once and for all had consequences that showed the Trapper's continued existence (or at least, of someone filling that role) ultimately was for the better. I also had forgotten the more overt Superboy/girl references I liked so much were in #4.
That said, #5 is still an excellent standalone tale and remains both a very pivotal issue in Legion history and an example of some of the very best TMK storytelling.
I'm also a sucker for well-done stories that focus on lesser characters but still has resonance with the larger picture. This is probably among the best examples of that of any comic I've ever read!
In a way this story is similar to Star Trek: TNG's standout episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" (one of my very favorite episodes of any TV show) in which we get an alternate universe where a dead character is still alive. Like Tasha Yar, Ferro Lad never died destroying the Sun Eater; indeed, there never was a Legion, and Andrew Nolan was never Ferro Lad.
But Andrew (and several other familiar characters mentioned like Jacques Foccart) show that there is heroism still in this Mordruverse. Even though Mordru is omnipotent in this reality, they still seek to defeat him, even though the only way is apparently to change reality itself. They are doubtful at every stage that this will work but see no choice but to restore a former reality where there were 'Knights' and a 'Puppet Master' to provide the needed foils to Mordru's rise.
I absolutely loved Andrew's featured role in this story, just as I loved Tasha's in the TNG episode. It was sad to know that Andrew had a wife and children in this reality as he'd never lived to have those as the version we knew. The telling moment is when he races to save Mysa rather than return to his family. He just couldn't live with himself if he didn't try.
I also liked the spotlight given to faith in this issue. To me it illustrates how dark this world must be. With a limited number of pages to tell this story, I think this aspect is there as a shorthand for the darkness surrounding them. I'm not particularly religious, but I love seeing that element used effectively in comics. Here, I think it shows where Andrew's and Mysa's resolve to make a better world is rooted.
I also enjoyed the symbolism and the verse used in the story. It gave the story that kind of medieval feel it needed. The fact the Sun Eater tale was retold was particularly ironic, given our protagonist.
I also enjoyed Rond Vidar and Glorith in the story. For Glorith, I thought at the time she was a new character, having never read the old Adventure Time Trapper story at the time. In hindsight bringing her into the story was sheer genius on the creators' part. She was used really well by them and in the continuity that followed. The story reminded me that I've really missed her!
Rond was really a natural to appear in this story, given he was inventor of the Time Cube in the other universe. I certainly approve of any appearance by this character as he always seems to be used well. I really liked how he was Laurel's common law husband in the stories that would follow and the pathos that caused Brainy. He's missed in the current 3Boot, but I've a feeling he'll show up in L3W.
Actually rereading this story made me view Rond in a different way than I ever had before. I don't know if they meant to or not, but I felt the creators were hinting that Rond may have been the Time Trapper in the old continuity! I might be way off base, but I had that epiphany while rereading anyway. (I'm pretty sure his name has been mentioned as a possibility for who's under the hood in past threads.)
But the main reason I love this story (and #4) is that we get an in-continuity explanation for the reboot/retcon that is about to come, and it was a plausible, well-told and memorable story. Basically, the talented people behind this story were given a lump of coal they didn't want to burn, but they made a diamond out of it anyway. Too, TOO often we have to accept radical retcons and their ilk without so much as an explanation, or if so, it's something lame like "oh, Infinite Crisis wiped out that Linda Danvers/Matrix version of Supergirl!" In these two stories we saw the Time Trapper get his once and for all (for a while, anyway) and then we see the consequences and how restoring the timeline changes things. No, it didn't please everyone, but like the story or not, there's an explanation.
And, honestly, as a reader at the time, it was exciting to see the Legion's mythology turned on its head and to watch all the new wrinkles unfold. Laurel Gand must be my favorite continuity wrinkle of all time! Now, I can see how much harm was done to the Legion's legacy, but I can still appreciate the effort TMK put into it with what they were given.
Also, it seems at the time, I recognized all those symbols drawn into the ground on page 21, but for the life of me, I can only decipher the one symbolizing Superboy and Supergirl. Any help? Anybody?!?!
And does anyone know if the issue of L.E.G.I.O.N. that showed the Durlan/Phase swap was published more or less simultaeously to this one? I can't remember. In any case I can see how those scenes kind of detract from the story if you weren't a reader of both titles. But if you were--WOW!
Overall, a great, great story, and one of the most unique and significant in Legion lore. If anyone has visited this thread and can reread the story in question, please do and share your thoughts. This one definitely demands revisiting!
[ June 12, 2008, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Lard Lad ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by insanelad: All the heroes in this story have to trust implicitly, even when they might express uncertaity or distrust of one another.
An excellent point, insanelad. Trust is something everyone has to deal with, even if our challenges are more ordinary than changing the universe. Who do I love? What job should I take? Should I move to a different place or not? All of these decisions require trust in oneself, in other people, and in some understanding of the world that steps outside of the present circumstances (call it God, if you will).
Super-heroes are seldom shown having trust issues--at least not at this deep a level. This is yet another reason why LSH # 5 is so compelling.
quote:I think it also reinforces one of Giffen's themes for the run - that of adults making difficult, morally ambiguous choices that have ramifications. These aren't teenagers any more, and while that's where the Legion started, I in no way think that's where they should stay - isn't one of the most commented things on here about characterisation? Isn't it a more faithful characterisation to let these people that we love grow, develop and mature physically as well as emotionally?
Well put, and I agree completely. I find it odd that some fans think that characterization should be limited to one or two static personality traits, i.e., Batman broods, Spider-Man has angst over his uncle's death. But true characterization is fluid. It should force the characters to evolve after a time. Spidey should either come to terms with Uncle Ben's death or it will destroy him.
Comics, alas, exist in a static vacuum where the characters aren't really supposed to change. Instead, they just go around in the same emotional circles. 5YL was, at the very least, an attempt to move beyond this vaccuum. It was, I think, mostly successful in this attempt.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: If you read it on the heels of #4, you can see how that world came about and, ultimately, that Mon-El's desire to destroy the Trapper once and for all had consequences that showed the Trapper's continued existence (or at least, of someone filling that role) ultimately was for the better.
I haven't re-read # 4 yet, but I do remember it well. I was horrified when Mon-El killed the Time Trapper, as that was in direct violation of the Legion's code. Now, Mon had moved beyond the point in his life (or near-death) where he had to worry about being expelled. But ideals exist for a reason, not just because something bad might happen if we're caught violating them.
I agree with you completely that # 5 shows the horrific consequences of Mon's actions. In attempting to rid the world of one menace, he created an even worse menace. It is telling that he is not around to see it. It is a sad fact of life that one's actions often have untold consequences for others. (Would that some of our present leaders could realize this.)
quote: In a way this story is similar to Star Trek: TNG's standout episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" (one of my very favorite episodes of any TV show) in which we get an alternate universe where a dead character is still alive. Like Tasha Yar, Ferro Lad never died destroying the Sun Eater; indeed, there never was a Legion, and Andrew Nolan was never Ferro Lad.
Excellent analogy. There are a lot of similarities between the two stories. I can't help but wonder if the writer of "Yesterday's Enterprise" read LSH # 5 . . .
quote:Also, it seems at the time, I recognized all those symbols drawn into the ground on page 21, but for the life of me, I can only decipher the one symbolizing Superboy and Supergirl. Any help? Anybody?!?!
I think I see Wildfire's symbol in the first one, and an "E" (for Element Lad?) is clearly visible in the second panel. Other than that, I have no idea.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Lard Lad: Actually rereading this story made me view Rond in a different way than I ever had before. I don't know if they meant to or not, but I felt the creators were hinting that Rond may have been the Time Trapper in the old continuity! I might be way off base, but I had that epiphany while rereading anyway. (I'm pretty sure his name has been mentioned as a possibility for who's under the hood in past threads.)
An interesting thought just occurred to me. One of the other aspects of the issue that might have confused new fans is that the Durlan and the Time Trapper both wear burgundy robes. The adjoining panels on page 13 could easily lead one to think they are the same character.
Perhaps, in the Johnsverse, TT will turn out to be a Durlan.
Posted by brigort on :
I remember having to re-read that issue multiple times trying to get all the details. It certainly left me wondering just where Keith was going with the book. In hindsight, the Legion as we knew it ended with issue 4, issue 5 was a bridge, and issue 6 was the first issue of the "new" Legion. I enjoyed most of Giffens run, at least he was pushing some boundaries and trying to salvage what he could. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. Things really came apart when editorial started pushing his buttons, and he seemed to give up and just see what he could get away with until someone noticed.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
Simply an amazing piece of artwork that probably will never receive its due in the profession.
If ten of the best in the business were given the assignment to make something out of the mess presented by the loss of the Superboy connection, I doubt anyone would have come up with better, told it better, or illustrated it better.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
Excellent review, HWW, of an outstanding comic. It really was a densely-written and illustrated piece. I see more with each reading.
I had thought the signs on the ground were just occult magic signs until this thread. Having reread the issue, I saw that Glorith had more Legion insignia on her gloves in her initial scene - Ultra Boy's and somebody else's.
Could Rond have been a monk? His hairstyle seemed to suggest that, along with the robe. It struck me as strange that Mordru would permit Catholicism, but perhaps its rituals could be akin to magic, or had been reworked to suit him.
This was possibly the only issue from that series with no letters, no text pieces at the end and no word from the creators/editors. I hadn't noticed that before, but think it makes a powerful statement. To have followed the story with some real world communication might have lessened the effect.
Posted by Fat Cramer on :
And does anyone know if the issue of L.E.G.I.O.N. that showed the Durlan/Phase swap was published more or less simultaeously to this one? I can't remember. In any case I can see how those scenes kind of detract from the story if you weren't a reader of both titles. But if you were--WOW!
That L-dot story was from November 1989 (#9) - and LSH #5 was March 1990 (cover date).
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by brigort: I enjoyed most of Giffens run, at least he was pushing some boundaries and trying to salvage what he could. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. Things really came apart when editorial started pushing his buttons, and he seemed to give up and just see what he could get away with until someone noticed.
You touch on one of the things I admire about Giffen, brigort--that he pushed boundaries. At a time when most comics creators played it safe by regurgitating the same kinds of stories that had worked before and aimed their work for the hypothetical 12- to 13-year-olds, Giffen dared to try something new and aim for an older audience.
You're correct that some of it worked and some of it didn't; such is the nature of experimentation.
I have two thoughts about Giffen's attempts to see what he could get away with, both of which speculate about his character (and which may or may not be well founded). On one hand, it seems immature for him to take out his frustrations with the company on the characters and the fans. On the other hand, it was gutsy of him to stand up to the company in the best way he could: by using the story to rebel against editorial interference.
Giffen was certainly a volatile creator, and that volatility is part of what made him successful, I think.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Blockade Boy: If ten of the best in the business were given the assignment to make something out of the mess presented by the loss of the Superboy connection, I doubt anyone would have come up with better, told it better, or illustrated it better.
I agree, Blockade Boy.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Fat Cramer: Excellent review, HWW, of an outstanding comic.
Thanks, Cramer.
quote:I had thought the signs on the ground were just occult magic signs until this thread. Having reread the issue, I saw that Glorith had more Legion insignia on her gloves in her initial scene - Ultra Boy's and somebody else's.
Good catch!
It might be simplistic to assume that the markings have some direct bearing on the Legion. After all, the key figures in Legion history (per Giffen) were not the Legionnaires themselves, but Brande and the Time Trapper. It could be that the blood signs refer to something else entirely.
quote:Could Rond have been a monk? His hairstyle seemed to suggest that, along with the robe.
Possibly. Being a monk would certainly give him a plausible background in magic, folklore, and religion.
quote:This was possibly the only issue from that series with no letters, no text pieces at the end and no word from the creators/editors. I hadn't noticed that before, but think it makes a powerful statement. To have followed the story with some real world communication might have lessened the effect.
Another insightful observation.
Posted by Lard Lad on :
Anyone else reread the comic in question since this thread was started? Anything new pop out at ya? And was your impression of it any different than the previous or first reading?
Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
In Dev’s thread rereading the 5YL stories, HWW posted a link to his excellent review of Legion #5 of the TMK/5YL era. An excellent review for one of the best Legion issues of all time IMO.
I missed this thread the first time around—lots of great insight. I particularly liked this passage:
quote:Originally posted by He Who Wanders: E. Themes
It’s hard to speculate on Giffen’s motives, but I think it is not unlikely that he was asking fans to have faith in him as he reconstructed the Legion’s timeline to accommodate DC’s mandate. It is interesting to view the heroes in this story (particularly Rond) as stand-ins for Giffen and his collaborators (Andrew and Mysa=Tom and Mary), while Mordru serves as a stand-in for the all-powerful DC, which bends fictional “reality” to its will. (You can draw your own conclusions as to who Glorth is supposed to be.)
Whether knowingly or not, if the Creators did this then it works beautifully. Glorith of course would be Legion continuity from #6 forwards and one could make an argument that its Legion continuity ever since. In order to keep reading Legion stories, we were forced to live under a new puppet master.
I haven’t read the issue in a few years (I think about 5 years ago was the last time) but its always a treat to reread it. Here, Giffen, Tom, Mary and Al Gordon basically give a writer’s graduate course on how to convey the danger of a higher power without showing him. Mordru and the dread he causes are felt in every single panel.
Posted by Blockade Boy on :
This is one of those issues that I think about, when I get irritated at a comics board poster whose response to others' critiques and criticisms of a book is "it's just a comic."
It's literature. We're not 7 and these do not cost 12 cents. It's more than literature. It's real-time performance art, as it responds to message board criticisms and winks to fans with it's plot development, as so many stories now seem to do.
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