My newest post on Legion Abstract is something I've been working on for a long, long time. (And I'm not done yet, so please help with additions or corrections if you feel like it.) I hope people find it useful and/or interesting.
Posted by Nightcrawler on :
The established chronology of the Pre-boot Legion was established long before the Internet in THE AMAZING WORLD OF DC COMICS #9, November 1975 and it's been the basis for all other lists which includes the chronology involved in the SECRETS OF THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #1-3 (Jan-Mar 1981), THE OFFICIAL LEGION OF SUPER HEROES INDEX #1-5 (1986), and in WHO'S WHO IN THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES #1-3 (Apr-Jul 1988). And probably several other "official" magazines throughout the years as well, but which I can't recall at the moment.
Posted by Matthew E on :
That's cool; thanks.
At the moment I'm going to stick with the order as presented in the Showcase edition. At some point I may compare it to the... what shall I call it? Externally established chronology? that you mention, and decide which makes more sense to me.
Anyway, it only really makes a difference for the earliest stories. I hope.
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
Matthew,
Superboy resigned in LSH2 [to use your numbering] # 259. This was the first issue of the second volume of LSH, continuing from Superboy and the Legion # 258.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Most of the "official" chronology is based around clues internal to the stories, such as flashbacks to Superboy's swearing in, at which Brainy is present (which thus implies Supergirl joined first, etc.).
Posted by Matthew E on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Most of the "official" chronology is based around clues internal to the stories, such as flashbacks to Superboy's swearing in, at which Brainy is present (which thus implies Supergirl joined first, etc.).
That's pretty much what I figured. But I don't really feel bound by... well, by the example you gave, anyway; I don't think Binder and Plastino intended that guy to be Brainiac 5. It's very clever but I don't think you can put any weight on it. If DC has put weight on it then that's interesting but it still doesn't mean that the information's there in the actual comics. (Which kind of makes it hypocritical of me to rely on the RPG sourcebook for the 5YG stuff, but oh well.)
By the way, I just came across the timeline threads in the Encyclopedia Galactica section of this site. Would have saved me a bit of time if I had known that those were there.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
It's not the swearing in in Adv. #247, but the flashback to his swearing in in Adv. #323 that's relevant. The later re-coloring of the character in Adv. #247 was an attempt to bring the two stories in line.
Of course, chronologies tend to ignore other textual evidence, such as Sun Boy implying that he'd joined before Lightning Lad.
Posted by jimgallagher on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Of course, chronologies tend to ignore other textual evidence, such as Sun Boy implying that he'd joined before Lightning Lad.
When was that, EDE?
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
It's one of the flashbacks to the Ranzz origin stories (Ayla's introduction, maybe?) Sun Boy says something along the lines of "Remember Lightning Lad's origin that he told us when he joined?" which seems to imply that Sun Boy was there when LL joined.
Posted by Matthew E on :
My approach is looking better and better to me.
Posted by Reboot on :
You miss that (post-LSH4 110, pre-Rift) Thunder and Star Boy resign in Lgs 81.
ERG-1/Wildfire's a tricky one - either he joins in Lgs 81, LSH4 125 or Lost #3. Ask me depending on which day of the week it is...
As for the Rift, I do **NOT** count them as all having continuous service over that. I only count those on either the Lost team or Brande's "Legion Subterfuge Squad" (including Triad and those building Legion World). As such: *Gates and Element Lad "leave" force majeure between the events of LSH 125 and LW 6/2 & Lost 1. *Apparition, Spark, M'Onel, Kinetix, Ferro, Karate Kid and Magno (if he counts) leave freely and, relatively speaking, of their own will after the formal disbandment. *Monstress & Live Wire, of course, die (With Garth technically resigning first) *Shikari, Chuck & Gear join (Arguably, Wildfire too).
That leaves the following as having continuous service:
Everyone else either joins during the year, leaves/dies during the year or rejoins after they regroup in Legion #3.
PS: The actual formal disbanding's in Legion Worlds #6/2, not LSH125...
Posted by Matthew E on :
Thanks. I just this afternoon looked at the reboot timeline in the Encyclopedia Galactica section, and there's a lot of stuff in there that I either don't have, or have differently. It may take me some time to sort it all out. Especially since there are a lot of gaps in my comic collection for the reboot.
But it wasn't so much that I counted them all having continuous service; it's more that I was thinking, once the Legion was back up and running in #3, that they wouldn't wait for, say, Apparition or Spark to physically show up before considering them to be Legionnaires.
This is a big enough project that I don't feel the need to get everything reet and compleat right away.
Posted by doublechinner on :
I like the idea of doing the timeline based on publication rather than subsequent stories. It's neat to see a chronology of how the Legion developed from a creative point of view -- what were the writers and artists doing at that point, and why.
BTW, my early knowledge of the Legion is so sketchy that I never knew E. Nelson Bridwell, in his "Origin of the Legion" story, completely made up the part about Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl being the first new Legionnaires after the founders. Bridwell was always such a stickler for details, I'm surprised he deviated from the published history by that much. Bridwell must have had a compelling reason for doing this.
Another BTW, the reboot followed the Bridwell history pretty closely, with Trip and Tinya being the first new members. I get the impression Waid was following influenced by actual publication history a little, since Star Boy and Sun Boy seem such senior members of the 3boot.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: Thanks. I just this afternoon looked at the reboot timeline in the Encyclopedia Galactica section, and there's a lot of stuff in there that I either don't have, or have differently. It may take me some time to sort it all out. Especially since there are a lot of gaps in my comic collection for the reboot.
But it wasn't so much that I counted them all having continuous service; it's more that I was thinking, once the Legion was back up and running in #3, that they wouldn't wait for, say, Apparition or Spark to physically show up before considering them to be Legionnaires.
Well, the team is formally reinstituted in The Legion #10 - anyone not there by that point (Apparition, Ferro, Karate Kid) must by any measure, be deemed to have a break in service. Plus, Umbra takes a leave of absence at that point, to go and look into her depowerment, which you don't reflect.
And considering some of the fiddly stuff in your other listings...
Seriously, anyone not in the Bouncing Boy or on Legion World at the start of The Legion #3 left, and have (IMO) to be counted as such.
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: This is a big enough project that I don't feel the need to get everything reet and compleat right away.
Ummm... sic? Or is that a joke?
[ July 13, 2007, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
Posted by Matthew E on :
You know the thing I found most interesting? The numbers. During the 5YG, at one point, the Legion was down to four members. Imagine that Legion trying to, I don't know, cope with Sklarian raiders and Organus in the same day.
The Levitz era was full of complaints about the Legion being shorthanded, but the Legion was typically about 20 members strong, or more, during that time. It took the reboot Legion a long time to accumulate that many members.
But the original Legion had a rule about not exceeding 25 Legionnaires. The reboot Legion swept right past that number, topping out at 28 Legionnaires in the DnA period. Still the high-water mark as far as I know (although the threeboot Legion may pass them if enough Wanderers and Terror Firmishers join the core team).
[ July 13, 2007, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Matthew E ]
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
You learn something new every day. Here, I thought "compleat" was just a clever marketing scheme (The Compleat Beatles).
This thread reminds me of how little of the Legion's earliest days was actually published, preboot. I recently re-read the story of their first case ("The Secret of the Quintile Crystal," DC Super-Stars # 17) and the Green Lantern Corps/Time Institute story (LSH v. 2 # 295), but there aren't many other stories that take place before Superboy or Supergirl joined, are there?
This underdocumented period lends itself to some interpretation regarding the order in which certain Legionnaires joined. For example, in LSH # 306, Star Boy says he came on board, unluckily, as the 13th member, which is true if you count Superboy and Supergirl. But there is also a school of thought that says Superboy and Supergirl were originally honorary members (as was Pete Ross, also admitted before Star Boy), and only became active members later.
It is this discrepancy which suggests that the flashback to Superboy joining in Adventure # 323 may have been referring to his active membership and not his honorary membership, hence the presence of Brainy.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Here's an intersting thought:
Given that Supergirl was originally supposed to be joining a distinct version of the Legion from the one Superboy joined, most of the classic members of the Legion were actually introduced as members of this later Legion.
One wonders what would've happened had they decided to keep this distinction.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: It's one of the flashbacks to the Ranzz origin stories (Ayla's introduction, maybe?) Sun Boy says something along the lines of "Remember Lightning Lad's origin that he told us when he joined?" which seems to imply that Sun Boy was there when LL joined.
Not quite. Yes, Dirk was in the panel. But it was Rokk who said the line.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Ah, that's right. But still the most natural way to read the line is that the "us" includes Sun Boy (or else he couldn't be expected to remember it).
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
I guess I don't read naturally.
To me Rokk was retelling Dirk the origin as he was told it when Garth joined. Almost as if the origins of the Three were something the others had to learn upon joining. Sort of the teacher having to explain to the student again.
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
Well, if that doesn't convince you, check out Garth's thoughts a couple of panels later, still in the flashback, when he thinks "Maybe this power will win me membership in the Legion of Super-Heroes!", implying that the Legion was founded prior to Garth gaining his abilities.
Posted by Matthew E on :
No wonder they had to reboot this damn team twice.
Posted by Lightning Lad on :
quote:Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester: Well, if that doesn't convince you, check out Garth's thoughts a couple of panels later, still in the flashback, when he thinks "Maybe this power will win me membership in the Legion of Super-Heroes!", implying that the Legion was founded prior to Garth gaining his abilities.
Didn't catch that. What I get for stopping reading through.
Posted by Reboot on :
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: No wonder they had to reboot this damn team twice.
No, they had to reboot it once. They chose to reboot it twice...
Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
From Jo and Terri Sanning's discussion of the scene:
quote: Cosmic Boy's flashback to Lightning Lad's origin is incorrect as he remembers that Garth Ranzz, upon receiving his super-lightning power, thought "maybe this power will win we membership in the Legion of Super-Heroes" based on the "origin he told us when he joined the Legion". Why would Cosmic Boy forget that Garth helped found the Legion with him and Saturn Girl (as told in AD 352 Origin of Cosmic Boy and SB 147)? Actually, this is only a mistake looking back in hindsight. When this story was published, no origin in any form was established and Lightning Lad could very well have joined after the team formed. Still, because it was later established that he was a charter member, we the reader are only left to assume that Cosmic Boy had a memory lapse, perhaps brought on by the shock and confusion of the death and reanimation of his close friend. And he says that maybe Lightning Lad's memory has been affected!
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
quote:Originally posted by Reboot:
quote:Originally posted by Matthew E: No wonder they had to reboot this damn team twice.
No, they had to reboot it once. They chose to reboot it twice...
In my view, they didn't "have to" reboot it at all. They chose to do so as the most convenient way of not having to deal with the Legion's long and complex history and the aging of the characters -- two assets that have unfortunately been lost in the reboots.
But early stories in fictional franchises such as the Legion and Star Trek are rife with the kind of inconsistencies being discussed. There is probably no way to reconcile, for example, the costumes that the Legionnaires wore in Adventure # 247 with later flashbacks of that story which show them wearing their famous Adventure-era costumes when they met Superboy. (Not to mention the fact that Cos and LL's powers are depicted differently in that story from how they developed later.) We fans either have to exercise our creativity in explaining such inconsistencies or learn to live with them.
Either way, such errors are hardly a valid reason for rebooting anything.
[ July 14, 2007, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: He Who Wanders ]
Posted by Matthew E on :
Sorry; I thought it would be obvious that I was joking. Like I would ever advocate rebooting anything!
Posted by He Who Wanders on :
No need to apologize, Matthew. I was certain you were joking, but I wanted to make an alternate position clear for any newbies who happen to be reading.
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