quote:

---

DiDio confirmed there were plans for the Legion next year, and also that the Legion characters currently appearing in the "Lightning Saga" storyline in "JLA" and "JSA" will be making an appearance in "Action Comics" soon.

---

I just wish they'd hurry up and tell us where the major celebration is happening. I can't imagine it would be anywhere but SDCC but you never know.
 

---

Posted by l.e.g.i.o.n.JOHN on :
 
isn't next year the Legion's 50th?
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Yep. And that's what it says above.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
all right! at least they're not teasing-and-abandoning us with JLA/JSA.

The more I think on it, reintro-ing young Clark's LSH history has to have reasonably permanent implications.
 

---

Posted by Mattropolis on :
 
http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50803

I don't know if any of you have seen this yet and i oculdn't find anything in here about it, but look at Geoff Johns' post about halfway down the first page...
 

---

Posted by MLLASH on :
 
SPOILER SPECULATION

.
.
.
.
.


So, is it a mini detailing the new Supes/LSH history or what?
 

---

Posted by Lad Boy on :
 
pleeeeease . . . pretty please

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but it seems to me that DC is at least tinkering with the notion of managing and expanding the Legion brand-name, instead of letting lapse into obscurity. I don't think it just the upcoming 50th anniversary.

They must look at Marvel's success with the <insert adjective here> X-<insert noun here> strategy and wonder what properties they have that they could expand with similar success.

JLA/JSA/Titans/the Legion is a pretty awesome inventory. Surely DC can come up with a strategy for developing all four brand-names without cannibalizing their own sales. (Well, maybe not.)

I'm curious to see how the WaK Legion and the 2007 JLA/JSA crossover Legion fit in the multiverse. Maybe 2008 will bring us a Legion/Legion crossover. : )

[ June 21, 2007, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Lad Boy ]
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
This could be anything from a new series to a mini to just the announced appearance of this Legion in Action Comics. Any way, though, I'd be happy to see more of them.

And if DC doesn't cash in on the Legion's 50th anniversary they are idiots. Michael just posted a reminder out over in the Omnicom that the Legion is the first super-powered team of the Silver Age. They predate everyone. They need to have a media blitz to the point where we're all sick of the Legion.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mattropolis:
http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50803

I don't know if any of you have seen this yet and i oculdn't find anything in here about it, but look at Geoff Johns' post about halfway down the first page...

---

Heh, that was me who started that thread! Yes it worked! Somebody has to give DC a kick in the pants! Maybe we should all email them about the Legion's 50th! Legion Worlders Unite! Assemble! Um, transform?
 

---

Posted by rtvu2 on :
 
Ah,

YES
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES

I'll buy 5 issues every month to support the thing.
 

---

Posted by Crujectra of Psyonia on :
 
So, uh, is anyone else checking Newsarama every five minutes?
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crujectra of Psyonia:
So, uh, is anyone else checking Newsarama every five minutes?

---

Post a link when it come up. Thanks!
 

---

Posted by Lad Boy on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crujectra of Psyonia:
So, uh, is anyone else checking Newsarama every five minutes?

---

that'd be kind of sadly obsessive wouldn't it? Uh . . .gotta run, back in a minute.
 

---

Posted by Tamper Lad on :
 
You guys realize Newsarama has a "Meta Refresh" tag and reloads automatically every few minutes without your intervention, don't you?
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Yeah but I think we are jumping the gun. Depending on the time Geoff posted that we may be waiting on a Friday article.
 

---

Posted by Crujectra of Psyonia on :
 
Well, he wrote it at like 9:00 last night, so I'm guessing he means today.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Now I think they making us wait on purpose. Newsarama is toying with us!!! I know it!
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Haven't read it yet. Link
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crujectra of Psyonia:
Well, he wrote it at like 9:00 last night, so I'm guessing he means today.

---

Actually he posted it a little after Midnight (by my time zone). So unless he posts from the Pacific he posted it, technically, today.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
On Meltzer's blog he also said that the article would appear today.
 

---

Posted by Crujectra of Psyonia on :
 
I just hope it appears before 5 PM EST... that's when I go home for the day.
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Knew it. Just the arc name in the upcoming "Action" run.

Just a quick note. Action Comics #858 should be, scheduling issues aside, the November 2007 issue. Right around Thanksgiving given the current release schedule.

[ June 21, 2007, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Lightning Lad ]
 

---

Posted by Crujectra of Psyonia on :
 
You know, though, I'm just as happy with this. Now that the team has sorta been re-introduced, let's have an arc that really delves in a little, so we can get a better idea of who these people are.

If the fan reaction warrants it, we'll see something down the road... like right around the time that George Perez finishes up his Brave and the Bold run
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Who writes that series? Geoff or Busiek?
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Right now? Geoff Johns and Richard Donner. For the Legion arc? According to the article, Gary Frank will be the penciller so I'm assuming Johns will be writing.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Yes! Thanks LL.
 

---

Posted by doublechinner on :
 
Geoff, occasionally with Richard Donner. Of course, the whole series has been upended because of art delays from Adam Kubert. So, after months delay, it looks like we get one more installment of the Phantom Zone villians story in July, then we have to wait for some annual (unscheduled?) ala Heinberg's Wonder Woman. If I sound snarky and frustrated, it's because I am. Johns and Donner started doing some really great things with Supes (as has Busiek), only to have it completely thrown off track by production delays. The Action Comics schedule for the summer looks crazier than the Bizarro World freeway system.

If there's a theme in Johns' work on Action, it's restoring and enhancing old elements of the Superman mythos--Phantom Zone villains, Mon-El, Bizarro World, so the Legion fits in perfectly with that.
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Now merged!
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
doublechinner, yeah i really got into the first few issues of Johns/Donner but then said I will just wait for it to be over and read the whole thing at once. I better do that and read it before the Legion show up.
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Now merged!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lightning Lad:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Now merged!

---

Thanks Gary!

---

It sounded impressive didn't! I love when he does that! He's the Legion World God.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Or the Legion World Progenitor, anyway.
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 
On other message boards, you delete messages. On Legion World, messages delete YOU.
 

---

Posted by googoomuck on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mattropolis:
http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50803

I don't know if any of you have seen this yet and i oculdn't find anything in here about it, but look at Geoff Johns' post about halfway down the first page...

---

Heh, that was me who started that thread! Yes it worked! Somebody has to give DC a kick in the pants! Maybe we should all email them about the Legion's 50th! Legion Worlders Unite! Assemble! Um, transform?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lil'rhino:
I heard the Legion's being featured in a multi-part storyline in Action Comics coming this fall.
I need details,people! Writer? Artist? Which version of the Legion?
Start talkin'!

---

Geoff Johns & Gary Frank I believe. Frank's Legion will be...interesting. He's one of those artists that can go either way.
 

---

Posted by lil'rhino on :
 
Thanx, Scott & Gary!
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Action Comics 851 will have Mon-El but Superman barely remembers him?! Newsrama article/preview
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Thanks Jorge!
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I'm catching up with Geoff Johns Action Comics.

Superman had "adopted" Lor-Zod the son of Zod. Ofcourse he didn't know he was Zod's son. He gave him the name Chris Kent.

Superman seems to have a problem remembering details when it comes to the Legion. We've seen in the Lightning Saga and now in Action comics.

I am currently only on Action #846 but I have this feeling. Perry White called Lor/Chris a "Kryptonian Kid". With the Legion appearing soon I wonder if Superman might give Lor over to them?

Also I wonder if the Legion erases Supes' memories when he goes back to the past and brings them back when he visits the future again?

This Action/Legion arc is going to be interesting.
 

---

Posted by Vee on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:

Also I wonder if the Legion erases Supes' memories when he goes back to the past and brings them back when he visits the future again?

---

That actually is well established in Legion Lore. Although they only wiped his memry completely once that I can recall, both Supes and Kara were under a hypnotic compulsion to forget anything they learned in the 30th Centruy that could cause them to change history through that knowledge.

During the Grell era, we learned that the Legion had also hidden lots of other important details from the Super cousins, like the Legion gene (DNA) bank because they feared that the temptation to use that knowledge to "resurrect" his parents or other loved ones would be too great.

[ July 07, 2007, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Vee ]
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Well Action #851 has a Legion related character besides Mon-El and I can't say I welcome it.

Click Here For A SpoilerDev-Em is some crazy looking villain now. Looks nothing like the Dev-Em I know and love.

I hate when DC does this. Infact, this character (or atleast his name) appeared recently in another DC work. Certainly wasn't the guy we know in either issue(52 and Action). Stop throwing these names around if you are going to make the character completely different.
 

---

Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Hmm... well, said character was originally Click Here For A Spoilera Kryptonian juvenile delinquent, before travelling to the 30th century and reforming, so it wouldn't surprise me if they rebooted him as a Kryptonian criminal.

Disappointing, but not surprising.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
don't forget when Click Here For A Spoiler Dev-Em was a Valor villain who blew up the moon.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Kent I didn't know that.

Also an earlier story by Dwayne McDuffie (fill-in for Geoff's late Action arc) has Superman battling a Sun-Eater. I am reading the original Sun-Eater story right now.

Same trick. The Eater blasts Superman with red sun rays. McDuffie has it do the same in the Action issue.

It seems DC is brushing up on their Legion history as well as me. Hmm, I wonder why?
 

---

Posted by Chemical King on :
 
So now that the Ligthning Saga is over - just read JLA though my comic shop missed to send me the fourth part JSA issue - I am really a little bit confused but far more excited that we got to see Brainy and Cos as well. And who was that guy/girl talking to Karate Kid at the end???

My only hope is that they will tell me in advance which issues to buy. The Legion return came as a surprise in JSA and it was pretty hard to get those back issues in Germany (at last I succeeded rather cheaply on Ebay...)

Cause I have no interest at all in buying Action comics without the Legion - I NEVER cared much for Superman - but fear I will miss something... again...

But hey - Gary Frank, that's a good news. Second best to George Perez, as good as Greg Land or Jiminez. Cool!
 

---

Posted by Blue Battler on :
 
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct07/solicitations.html


Which Legion do you think he's going to visit?
 

---

Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Combined threads.
 

---

Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
 
Superman wearing a legion ring again after all these years. I will probably never be able to criticize his version of the legion just because him being back in legion continuity is so right to me.
 

---

Posted by Jerry on :
 
Wow. That image gave me goose bumps.
 

---

Posted by Blue Battler on :
 
The Legion has never seemed right to me without Kal-El in it.

Of course that's because I think of the Pre-Crisis lonely Clark who really needed friends who understood what it was like to be different as opposed to the BMOC that Clark became after Byrne got his hands on him...
 

---

Posted by superboymddjr on :
 
Here's hoping to see Dream Girl and Dawnstar again in Action Comics....*please finger crossing* and if possible, Sensor Girl.
 

---

Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
I never really cared too much for Superboy being in the Legion, but it is kinda nice to see the Legion having an important place in SuperMAN's past. The best thing about "Lightning Saga" was just the possibilities that it offered in terms of seeing the Legion many of us loved. So far, there's been nothing to show that the pay off is going to be at all satisfying.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
good point on both accounts, Drake.

But at this point I don't mind being strung along; the Lightning Saga Legion reminds me of why I love LSH. Threeboot does not.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
BIG GEOFF NEWS! The man said it himself 18 minutes ago!

"Just for the record...

...it's the return of the originals as much as Green Lantern: Rebirth was the return of Hal Jordan

That's how I think of this arc. Rebirth for the original Legion.


Geoff"
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
So I guess no one else is that excited Geoff is bringing the original Legion back?! And it doesn't seem they will be disappearing anywhere in a Final Crisis?
 

---

Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Imo, Geoff saying that he's bringing the "original Legion" back is like WaK claiming they weren't rebooting the Legion.

It should be taken with a grain of salt.

And, if anything, it's disappointing because it means they're trying to pass off schizo Starboy, etc., as the "original" versions of the characters, and we won't be seeing a more traditional "Earth-1" Legion down the road.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
The schizo thing I think goes to explain why he was always so...average? I'm not a big fan of it but when he goes back to the future he will be fine.

EDE, you have some Star Boy and Dream Girl issues I think maybe a good session with the local LWMB psychologist may be in order. It's ok they helped me snake Jeckie.
 

---

Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Oh well, maybe this Final Crisis will retcon all of the Johns/Meltzer retcons to the Legion away...
 

---

Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
 
I am excited about a creator fulfilling his motivation to bring back the original legion. I'm a little anxious, though, about how it's all going to work out amongst the "three" different versions that will then be competing for attention.
 

---

Posted by thor2168 on :
 
I'm looking forward to it. It can't be any worse than anything else that has happened in how many incarnations...F' it! Give it a try! Wohoo!
 

---

Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Incidentally, I completely agree with our own Matthew E.'s reply to Geoff's claim.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Wow, Matthew let him have it. I would think we should wait and see.

In the stories Superman himself has problems remembering. Superman still remembers Star Boy being kicked off the team...yet he has said a few times he doesn't remember everything clearly.
 

---

Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I'm actually pretty excited. I have to say, I see the point you and Matthew are making Eryk, but I'm not sure I agree. This is pretty much the pre-Crisis Legion with a diverged timeline from a certain point forward, probably from Crisis #11. In a sense, everything afterwards that we saw by Levitz, Giffen, T&M, etc, was one 'possible road to the adult future Legion', and now we're being presented with the first steps towards another.

Is it *the* original Legion? Not sure how you can quantify that, but it certainly is the 'original pre-boot/pre-crisis Legion' at a certain point in time led down another point.

I can't see how any difference in the Lightning Saga Legion are large enough to imply that there is character assassination/huge changes that are any different than say, Gerry Conway's version compared to Cary Bate's version. The only major ones (1) Why is Karate Kid still alive and what does that mean for him and Jeckie? and (2) Thom's schizophrenia are major story points for those two characters that appear to be in the process of being told.

So more so than a 'boot', this is pretty much the return of the first Legion cut-off from a certain point. Its essentially the writers doing what many asked by starting back up at Magic Wars, only doing it a few years earlier at Crisis, which makes more sense story-wise in a way.

I guess you’d have to consider everything from 1985 – 1995 to be a much larger equivalent to the story in Adventure where Superman visits their future. Another possible future.

Is it perfect. Certainly not. But it’s the best option I’ve seen since Zero Hour. I'm certainly pretty excited about it!

In a way its kind of the curse of modern age comics. Sure, I'm dying for Thor comics and have been so for years. But JMS on Thor?! Crap, now I'm screwed since I know he'll probably screw Thor up. Its the price we all need to be willing to pay--we need to be ready to let Meltzer play with the Legion, Jeph Loeb do Aquaman or Rob Liefield take care of Doom Patrol ( ). Some of us are willing I guess, some of us not so much (understandbly). Sometimes we get John's GL (excellent IMO), sometimes we get a dozen or so examples of recent Marvel or DC series in the last five years...
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Cobie, with characters like Una and Sensor Girl around I don't think it's splitting off as early as you think or at all.

But we have a new Superman currently from New Earth. I have a feeling this Legion will be very similiar to the original but streamlined here or there.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I fully agree with Cobie.

If one wants to nit-pick, nothing after Adv #247 was "original" legion - costumes, names and powers changed. Supergirl is told that the Legion she meets was the cildren of the originals. The Legion winds up in a futuristic 21st century for a while in the early 60s. In the 70s, Ayla is younger than Garth. yadda, yadda, yadda.

To me, the origunal LSH (1958-1994) always had some continuity adjustments; so far, the ones we've seen don't seem that far out of line (even if some are head-scratchers).

It's also odd that someone distancing the L-Saga LSH from the "original" LSH was rationalizing Threeboot as a legit alternate version of the "original" Legion two years ago.

BTW, Jorge, I am also excited; I've expressed my excitement before the info you brought to the table; I'm just continuing the same cautious optimism I've had since the current JSA series began.

[ July 19, 2007, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Exactly Kent. The "original" Legion has more contradictions than you can shake a stick at.

I think if Thom is schizo but we never knew b/c he took super-future meds won't crack the mythos in half.
 

---

Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
Oh, I think it's pretty closely analogous to Superman. With the current Superman, you have a new continuity which incorporates elements of both pre-Crisis and Byrne-era continuity, but isn't really either of them. It certainly isn't the case that they literally brought back the Silver/Bronze age Superman continuity. Current Superman, for example, never worked on television.

Similarly, it seems to me pretty clear that they've created something that resembles the Silver/Bronze Age Legion continuity, but isn't literally it. At this point, it's really hard to figure out what's supposed to be clues as to continuity differences versus just bad editing/writing, but it seems to me they've dropped quite a few hints of things being different well before Crisis.
 

---

Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I never had problem with the continuity in the old continuity. Everything at some point got explained. I could perfectly live with the Pocket Universe explanation, for example, and never quite understood why Superboy had to be made into Valor some years later though there was no need for that continuity-wise...

I am very happy, very very glad that the old characters are returning, even in a somewhat classi-sized (I'm pretty sure this word does not exist) version. I don't care why Karate Kid suddenly is alive again (we know the true reason for it: He is the embodiment of the 80s but well, that's not a plot) - there will be a story that explains it. But after the group shot in JSA, the wonderful double-page in Justice #12, I'm quite sure that not only are the old guys returning, I am quite sure that many more people that just the Legion fandom will love them and buy the books they are featured in.

Long live the Legion, finally not just a catchphrase any more...
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 
Now, I'm not reading any of this... stuff... so obviously I don't know (or, honestly, wish to know, really...) all the details...

But it's an alternate post-Crisis Legion. That makes it a Legion whose history was also "screwed up" by it's recreation from Infinite Crisis just as much as the post-Crisis Legion was "screwed up" by CoIE, if in a different way. Exactly how "original" that makes it is up to you.

One last little point in the same vein... if you're saying it's the same LoSH, no history changes as such, just untold stories never heard of... how could a 70s/80s Supergirl have been involved, if a Kara Zor-El only turned up in recent times and all the others are now retconned away? Since they needed to pluck a Kal-El from Earth-IC...

[ July 19, 2007, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Reboot ]
 

---

Posted by Pariscub on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reboot:
Now, I'm not reading any of this... stuff... so obviously I don't know (or, honestly, wish to know, really...) all the details...

But it's an alternate post-Crisis Legion. That makes it a Legion whose history was also "screwed up" by it's recreation from Infinite Crisis just as much as the post-Crisis Legion was "screwed up" by CoIE, if in a different way. Exactly how "original" that makes it is up to you.

One last little point in the same vein... if you're saying it's the same LoSH, no history changes as such, just untold stories never heard of... how could a 70s/80s Supergirl have been involved, if a Kara Zor-El only turned up in recent times and all the others are now retconned away? Since they needed to pluck a Kal-El from Earth-IC...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
As far as i'm concerned, I understand that the new "original" Legion will be as "original" as the new Superman is, meaning that we'll get differences to their stories linked to the fact that this is a world that's post Infinite Crisis and things may be sligfhtly different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
Anyone notice that the Legions in Booster Gold?

A small panel just past the middle page that featured the three founders and Clark (they look SO young!)and B5 in the purple jumpsuit on the last page.
Well, they could be the same Legion from different eras...just which Brainiac lost that flight ring anyway?

---

Over here Art.
 

---

Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
Yeah.
With so many convoluted Time Stream stories going on it makes perfect sense to have a few different versions of a futuristic super-team getting mixed up in the works. I'm lovin' it. I've always loved sci-fi super-hero stories and we're getting plenty.

I don't know why or who but somebody at DC finally discovered the wealth of material in the Legion mythos and wants to take advantage of it. I for one am all for it. We'll get some confusing things here and there but it'll all shake out.

I'm hoping for an All-Star Legion sometime late next year.
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Um, anyone see the latest Action cover 859??? I kinda like it but I kinda don't. Lightning Lad looks the best by far. The others? eh. Saturn Girl looks OK...Cosmic Boy...I question. Don't hate it though...it can grow on me. His haircut on the other hand???!
 

---

Posted by kcekada on :
 
Horrible!!!!

They look worse than the Giffen Legion. Lightning Lad looks effeminate and Saturn Girl looks butch. Cos looks like the evil Cosmic King.

Come to think of it -- maybe this is an updated version of the LSV. Well, we can hope!
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
You think that Kubert cover is suppossed to be the Legion of the 90's? What if the Legion continued and got mirred in all that dark/violent low quality 90's? (Cause Superman wasn't a member anymore)
 

---

Posted by Pariscub on :
 
well, from the bits of info we got about this storyline, it just could be the case...

Didn't like that cover either
 

---

Posted by Chemical King on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
You think that Kubert cover is suppossed to be the Legion of the 90's? What if the Legion continued and got mirred in all that dark/violent low quality 90's? (Cause Superman wasn't a member anymore)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - I find Tromium's notion that the Reboot Legion is the post-crisis/pre-IC DC Earth that eventually leads to Kingdom Come (now designated Earth-22). It kind of makes it easier to figure out.

---

No go (well, let me rephrase that - no-go if they're sane). Post-ZH Legion diverges from the DCU-as-we-saw-it during OWAW because of Veridium and Computo - that's essential to the whole DnA run, OWAW must happen, otherwise everything from their very first issue (Lgs #78) to Legion #25 involves Robotica in the plot (arguably Legion #32, the last time we see Babbage) falls apart. No Robotica means no distress signal to draw Cos, Monstress, Apparition and Brainiac 5.1 away from Earth when the Blight attacks. Which means XS and Saturn Girl don't get away, which means the Blight nuke the galaxy.

Robotica needs Computo, and Computo needs Veridium's responsometer and Imperiex to match that up with a mother box again. (I treat the flashforward in JSA #51 with a post-ZHalike LSH, but with Blok, an unfamiliar HQ and Adventure-era-style Mordru, as the post-ZH hypertimeline where Computo didn't get put back together, and so things unfold differently from how we saw them in LSH #0 and on)

And, of course, Wesley Dodds was killed off in JSA SF&O #1, long before OWAW, and needs to survive to the opening of Kingdom Come.

PS: "Earth-22" can't accomodate The Kingdom...
 

---

Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
What the SPROCK are you guys talking about???
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Reboot: Valiant effort, but DC has ignored greater continuity violations than that. They'll do what they want to do...
 

---

Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Jillikers!!

Its more confusing than I appreciated. So...can *you* find a way to make this all strait for me, Boot? Or is it impossible to figure out a coherent split in timelines?

How come Kingcome Come (other than Wesley Dodds) not work with OWAW (which you'll have to forgive me, I've blocked out of my memory banks).
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:
Reboot: Valiant effort, but DC has ignored greater continuity violations than that. They'll do what they want to do...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - I find Tromium's notion that the Reboot Legion is the post-crisis/pre-IC DC Earth that eventually leads to Kingdom Come (now designated Earth-22). It kind of makes it easier to figure out.

---

I throw a lot of stuff against the wall I don't remember half the things I say, but I guess it's possible Johns will do just that seeing he's getting ready to reintroduce KC and (apparently) the reboot Legion around the same time. He's not loathe to push square pegs into round holes, which is exactly what he's doing now with the LS Legion.

But they wouldn't be the original reboot Legion any more than the LS Legion is the original pre-Crisis Legion.

I've made it no secret I'm fast becoming irritated with Geoff Johns and his "original" malarky, but on the plus side, it looks like three Legion comics (and the cartoon) running simultaneously for 5-6 months. That's what I call saturation marketing. If this push doesn't work, nothing will.
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
PS - I find Tromium's notion that the Reboot Legion is the post-crisis/pre-IC DC Earth that eventually leads to Kingdom Come (now designated Earth-22). It kind of makes it easier to figure out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reboot:
No go (well, let me rephrase that - no-go if they're sane). Post-ZH Legion diverges from the DCU-as-we-saw-it during OWAW because of Veridium and Computo - that's essential to the whole DnA run, OWAW must happen, otherwise everything from their very first issue (Lgs #78) to Legion #25 involves Robotica in the plot (arguably Legion #32, the last time we see Babbage) falls apart. No Robotica means no distress signal to draw Cos, Monstress, Apparition and Brainiac 5.1 away from Earth when the Blight attacks. Which means XS and Saturn Girl don't get away, which means the Blight nuke the galaxy.

Robotica needs Computo, and Computo needs Veridium's responsometer and Imperiex to match that up with a mother box again. (I treat the flashforward in JSA #51 with a post-ZHalike LSH, but with Blok, an unfamiliar HQ and Adventure-era-style Mordru, as the post-ZH hypertimeline where Computo didn't get put back together, and so things unfold differently from how we saw them in LSH #0 and on)

And, of course, Wesley Dodds was killed off in JSA SF&O #1, long before OWAW, and needs to survive to the opening of Kingdom Come.

PS: "Earth-22" can't accomodate The Kingdom...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
Jillikers!!

Its more confusing than I appreciated. So...can *you* find a way to make this all strait for me, Boot? Or is it impossible to figure out a coherent split in timelines?

How come Kingcome Come (other than Wesley Dodds) not work with OWAW (which you'll have to forgive me, I've blocked out of my memory banks).

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I make it eight or nine timelines (which isn't necessarily complete, I may have missed something, and I'm counting the future Thom seen in Starman #79-80 [because of Dreamer's recurring vision of a "gravesite" for Thom] and the Omega Point (End of Time) seen at the end of Legion #14 as being on the central Green Line,).

First, the diagram:



Most of which is self-explanatory.

However, you'll notice Kingdom Come isn't on that list. That's because I checked here first, including looking at the bigger version of the image. We're very definitely in alternate timeline with that lineup (obviously, particularly with Kon & Mae there), so the KC-Legion isn't the post-ZH Legion and shouldn't be treated as such.

But the key figure is between Shadow Lass (apparently referred to as such in the notes, although not on that page) and Kinetix. Princess Projectra - not Sensor. That pegs the divergence point for Kingdom Come way, WAY back, before Superman's, hell before the *JSA*'s debuts. Like, millions of years man!
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
Highly impressive and entertaining! Thanks 'Boot!

I like how you've kind of made sense of all that for me. I have to reread JSA #51 also, since I hardly remember anything from that story.

Also, Tromium's thought that John's saying the Lightning Saga Legion : Preboot Legion :: KC Legion : Reboot Legion is well taken.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
That diagram confuses and frightens me. I've read a lot of those comics - the Legion titles anyway - and I have no idea what I am supposed to understand about them from this diagram.
 

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Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Reboot: Valiant effort, but DC has ignored greater continuity violations than that. They'll do what they want to do...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
That diagram confuses and frightens me. I've read a lot of those comics - the Legion titles anyway - and I have no idea what I am supposed to understand about them from this diagram.

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Branching timelines (diagram NOT to scale ). Like that one - written by DnA - from the Young Justice OWAW special where M'On's taken on the Superman costume and Brainiac 5's merged with Brainiac 13, as how things would happen if OWAW ended a different way.

Rumours there was no multiverse before Infinite Crisis are, after all, greatly exaggerated.

Bit like how Johns screwed up Superboy and Impulse by pretending all their character development never happened, so he could do it over in a more irritating way...

quote:

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Originally posted by Lightning Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Reboot: Valiant effort, but DC has ignored greater continuity violations than that. They'll do what they want to do...

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This, unfortunately, is how I view it. Johns will take what he wants to work with and forget the rest, all in favor of the continuity-of-the-month. I'd be surprised if we reach the Legion's 55th anniversary before this one is screwed up and tossed out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reboot:
Branching timelines (diagram NOT to scale ). Like that one - written by DnA - from the Young Justice OWAW special where M'On's taken on the Superman costume and Brainiac 5's merged with Brainiac 13, as how things would happen if OWAW ended a different way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Yeah, I got that it was branching timelines... I guess it'd make more sense if I was more (by which I mean 'at all') familiar with OWAW... I presume its connection to Legion #13 has to do with Warworld?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Why is 'For No Better Reason' an alternate timeline to the Titans/Legion Special?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
That means we have two options. We can rebuild again, or abandon the Legion and move on. The fact that everyone is tired of rebuilding really doesn't matter, or change the fact that rebuilding is again necessary.

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I don't like either of those options. I guess "rebuild again" but not from the ground up like we've done the last two times. Rebuild it to make it look similiar to a Legion most people remember and love. And I know there is an ongoing debate about what that it is. But in my mind there is no debate.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry:
So, let's rebuild with the Legion as an essential part of Superman's youth. It's not a bad place to start.

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quote:

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The new artist of the regular monthly Legion book is a member of this board, and the "big announcement" of the next writer is expected within two weeks. That means they're aggressively promoting not one but *two* official Legions -- the supposedly original team lacking a plausible history and the 3boot team with almost no documented history.

Then they throw in a third, rebooted reboot team into the pot and stir it all up into one sloppy mess that'll be on slow-cook until late 2008.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kenaustin:
And unfortunately they're saying the Frank cover, the one I would want, is the variant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lightning Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by kenaustin:
And unfortunately they're saying the Frank cover, the one I would want, is the variant.

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Frank is actually doing both covers for #858.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
..and Una..what happened to her second body? Do we know that yet?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
..and Una..what happened to her second body? Do we know that yet?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kid Quislet:
The Time Trapper made a one panel appearance recently in Brave & Bold #6 in the Book of Destiny.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
That might've been Destiny (brother to Dream).

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I have no idea who Destiny or Dream are, but I'm sure you're probably right - after all, it was the Book of Destiny.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Go to your next comic book shop and read your Sandman, Kid Quislet It's essential comic book art - I know of nobody who didn't like it...
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chemical King:
Go to your next comic book shop and read your Sandman, Kid Quislet It's essential comic book art - I know of nobody who didn't like it...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tromium:

quote:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:
..and Una..what happened to her second body? Do we know that yet?

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I dunno. In Supergirl #21 (the current issue, written by Legion scribe, Tony Bedard), Una says her Legion name is Triplicate Girl. Now, that's in direct contradiction to the Duo Damsel statue in Superman's Fortess, but Karate Kid did address her as Triplicate Girl once before in Countdown.

At this stage, though I'm pretty sure Una is just one girl, I have no idea how many bodies Lighting Saga Luornu actually has -- and I suspect DC intends it to be all confusing and mysterious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zero Kahn:
If the Lightning Saga Legion is from a timeline that is simular to one that continued on from the Baxter era than Una was down to just one body. She lost the first to Computo all those years ago and then the 2nd in their last battle with the Time Trapper.
Thats the way I have interpretted the apperances of the Lightning Sage Legion anyway. Their history is close to the classic Legion up until the end of the Baxter series but not into the 5 Years Latter Legion. It changes then. I could be wrong.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tamper Lad:
LSaga Val and Una suggest that they have never met Supergirl before last issue. So either they are lying or the pre-crisis Supergirl has been erased from the Legion's history.

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I doubt anyone in the universe(s) clearly remembers Earth 1 Kara, but I don't trust anything the LSaga Legionnaires remember or don't remember. If it's been mentioned it once, it's been mentioned ten times -- time traveling screws with your head. I imagine the memory lapses are even worse when you've been dead for a while and/or have an OMAC virus.

I wouldn't be surprised if LSaga Brainy had some vestigal memories of Earth 1 Kara, though.

As for Una -- here's the new wacky theory of the week -- she's the first dead Triplicate Girl (a name she's been called more than once), whose killing was replayed in the Lightning Saga. Say, she was punched back to life during Infinite Crisis and has yet to fully reintegrate with Duo Damsel. I figure if Karate Kid was granted a cosmic permit to rise from the dead, why not her, too?

Whatever the twist (there has to be one!), I'm wagering there's more than one LSaga Luornu, and most or all of the Time Trapper stuff is a wash.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Good call Trom. Una is the dead one. KK already said the founders saved him or brought him back or something. Wouldn't mind seeing Ferro Lad either.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tromium:
As for Una -- here's the new wacky theory of the week -- she's the first dead Triplicate Girl (a name she's been called more than once), whose killing was replayed in the Lightning Saga. Say, she was punched back to life during Infinite Crisis and has yet to fully reintegrate with Duo Damsel. I figure if Karate Kid was granted a cosmic permit to rise from the dead, why not her, too?

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Trom,
I proposed the same Una theory last month in the Countdown thread. Great minds must think alike!!
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Wonky as it may be, the Una theory fits thematically, at least. Whether it's the resurrection of Lightning Lad, the rescue of a dead(?) Flash, Karate Kid's return from the grave, the recurring theme of the Lightning Saga Legion is coming back from the dead -- literally and figuratively.

So, yeah, possibly more undead stuff to come, but Ferro Lad will probably be Shooter's call.

P.S. Sorry I overlooked that one, Omni Craig. Belated credit where credit is due.

[ October 05, 2007, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
No problem Tromium, I'm just glad someone else has the same theory... I don't feel like such a crackpot for thinking it.

And you gave a great argument for her return to life up there (as far as life & death goes in the land of comics anyway)!!!
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
OK, just finished reading the Lightning Saga JLA/JSA issues. It was fantastic seeing that Legion again, even though it's by no means certain it's not an alternate Legion. From the JLA/JSA's point of view this "Legion" was tantamount to "first contact" with another "universe" and the writing did give me that "feel" and I loved the story. And the art was gorgeous.

It left many questions unanswered, but I have a question for you, people. Maybe it's been answered somewhere before but I can't find any reference about it. I hope it won't sound too silly.
Why did Sensor Girl use the original Triplicate Girl in her illusion, thus tipping Superman off that everything was in fact an illusion? Considering that what the Legionnaires wanted was some more time, this unexplainable "mistake" by Projectra actually jeopardized their mission.
If she had used the older "80s" Duo Damsel Superman wouldn't have realised it was an illusion when he did. Maybe Projectra did this on purpose but I can't imagine why. Am I missing something here? Can someone explain this, pls?
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dain:
Why did Sensor Girl use the original Triplicate Girl in her illusion, thus tipping Superman off that everything was in fact an illusion? Considering that what the Legionnaires wanted was some more time, this unexplainable "mistake" by Projectra actually jeopardized their mission.

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Jeckie was still in a trance when she created the TG illusion. It must have come from her subconscious.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Ah, I see. That sounds logical. Thank you, Tromium.
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
It's kind of weird she'd pick something from before she was actually a member of the Legion as well.

Of course, the real reason that scene was picked was for the nostalgia factor it would have with fans rather than whether it made any sense within the context of the story.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Well, if I remember correctly all Legionnaires are required to read/view past adventures as part of their education. Jeckie had probably seen the death of Triplicate Girl's body in the Legion files. Even if there was no "video footage" of it, reading about it in detail would have created a fair approximation of images in her subconscious that she could use later in the illusion.
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 
In the latest issue of Countdown?

AYYEEEIII!!!!

God, it had been a while since I had heard a "legion" scream... Like 20 years?

It felt good anyway.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I like KK on the cover. He looked pretty cool. (Countdown)
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I'll ask again, I'm so confused: When exactly was it established that KK was suffering from this virus? I read all of Countdown until now, and the fact was suddenly just there... did I miss it or was it off-panel or what is going on here????
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Adding to the Una theory, she always refers to her larger self as "triplicate Girl," not "Duo Damsel" as she theoratically would be in an 80s-ish LSH. Wasn't she DD in Super's gallery in JLA? I don't have those issues with me these days.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
In Supergirl #22, Una verifies she's Triplicate Girl and her two other selves are in the 31st century.

(She didn't say which sister she was, though.)
 

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Posted by Lard Lad on :
 
New Newsarama interview with Johns up regarding this arc.
 

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Posted by superboymddjr on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lard Lad:
New Newsarama interview with Johns up regarding this arc.

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about time that Shadow Lass and Night Girl gets to team up as it should always have been way back in Grell era! Yeah!!!!

Polar Boy and Blok - can't wait to see them by Gary Frank! definitely a bonus thumb up!
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I hope it's better than the last Shadow Lass/Night Girl teamup. If you don't remember that one, you're lucky.
 

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Posted by superboymddjr on :
 
oh yeah I remember that one - S/LSH #213. Yeah, Geoff said that 'BAD ASS Night Girl..." so I was like whoa allright about time as it should be better than that one way back in Grell time.
 

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Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
 
Actually it was in #212. And what was wrong with it? It was just an 8 page back-up story. The only thing I didn't like was Night Girl's "costume".
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
There's been one since then. As I say, you're lucky.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 

 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 

 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Blok?! Polar Boy?! Shadow Lass/Night Girl?! I've died and gone to heaven!
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Everybody? Almost everybody? Oh, God, I'm having shivers down my spine and it's not because it's cold. I think I've died and gone to heaven like Ultra Jorge...
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Geoff Johns gives another interview at IGN, and makes a clearer statement about what continuity the Lightning Saga/Action Legion includes.

quote:

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"The good thing is that you can pick up Adventure Comics #300 and that happened. You can pick up any Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes story and that happened. You can pick up the new trade coming out that Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen did, and that happened. All those are back-stories, so if you want to read them, the stories are there. Really, we're sticking with everything that happened up through Crisis on Infinite Earths."

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Johns calls Waid/Shooter Legion the "modern day version", which again begs the question why the modern day Superman has a past with the unmodern Legion of Earth 1 -- or what's passing for it in this story. The more I read about this arc, the more convinced I am of its dishonest and manipulative intent, and dread it all the more.

[ October 20, 2007, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: Tromium ]
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Why is it dishonest and manipulative to bring back all that "lost" continuity along with the possibility of new stories - possibly a new title? - that will honor this vast part of Legion history which includes everything that made the Legion great in the past?

Otoh, I don't exactly like the phrase "up through Crisis on Infinite Earths" because it seems to suggest that everything that happened after CoIE will be "out of continuity/never happened" which also suggests that another fairly vast part of Legion history will "not have happened".

This latter part may not be my favorite Legion era(s) but"doing away" with it is somehow like cheating all the fans who love that/those eras.

I'm ecstatic with the prospect of seeing "that" Legion, the one I grew up with, be a living part of the DCU again, more than ecstatic really, but I don't feel comfortable at all with eliminating other people's favorite Legion eras (which had their good points, and they ARE the Legion anyway).

Let's hope that what with multiple versions of the Legion floating around, every Legion era will be honored in one way or another.

[ October 20, 2007, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Reading the above Johns statement makes me.... happy.

Oh my, to get all those stories back...

Those stories up to COIE (which is way into the baxter series, if I recall correctly) are part of my childhood, loved those when I grew up, painted my Playmobil toys in Legion colours, read the few books that were translated into German over and over and over again. To bring them back after ruthlessly erasing all of them 14 years ago gives me a lot of satisfaction, and even though my ALSO beloved 5YL era has to go, I'll gladly trade that one for the basis of Legion of Super-Heroes returning to the DCU. KUDOS! (still not believing it until I see if, of course )
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I tried to read the Johns interviews, but I hardly can so so cause I'm so excited I stop reading it in the right order and start combing through it, trying to find important key words... thus eliminating the chance of getting all the information, but hey, I'm a fan, so sue me
 

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Posted by Doctor One on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chemical King:
I tried to read the Johns interviews, but I hardly can so so cause I'm so excited I stop reading it in the right order and start combing through it, trying to find important key words... thus eliminating the chance of getting all the information, but hey, I'm a fan, so sue me

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quote:

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IGN Comics: Since Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC has went to great pains to remove Superboy from Legion continuity. With the return of the Legion to Superman's back-story, what does that do to the whole mess that has been Legion continuity? Or is that better left for an editor or future Legion writers to worry about?

Johns: The good thing is that you can pick up Adventure Comics #300 and that happened. You can pick up any Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes story and that happened. You can pick up the new trade coming out that Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen did, and that happened. All those are back-stories, so if you want to read them, the stories are there. Really, we're sticking with everything that happened up through Crisis on Infinite Earths.

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quote:

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"There's a pretty big project coming up for '08 that I have got to start getting ready for but it's going to take up a hell of a lot more time.”

Johns confirmed he actually has two projects for 2008 that will likely be announced by the end of the year and that he is currently working with some of the pertinent characters right now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:

quote:

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"There's a pretty big project coming up for '08 that I have got to start getting ready for but it's going to take up a hell of a lot more time.”

Johns confirmed he actually has two projects for 2008 that will likely be announced by the end of the year and that he is currently working with some of the pertinent characters right now.

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Taken from a CBR article focusing on the JSA. I hope it's a Legion title. I would love to see three Legion titles!

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If I were a religious person I'd say "I'm praying for it".
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
I saw an interview recently with Scott Kolins and he is DC exclusive again. He said he and Geoff are working on a project together. Makes you wonder...
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Craig, don't even joke around like that! That's a bitter sweet dilemna! I'm not a huge Kolins fan.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Scott Kolins? Isn't that one of those no-name pinch hitter /artists?

Yeah if they want a book to fail, they improve the chances by assigning it to such a low-budget artist...

I really hope that should there be a LS-Legion book, that they actually give it to an decent artist (not to dream about Pérez or Frank) cause, let's face it: The art is still like the calling card of a book. If it looks lousy, nobody will pick it up no matter how good the stuff is written. But if a great cover kind of jumps at you from the shelves... you'll pick it up even if you don't care about the content that much.

Probably the only way to get more new readers to jump on the "continuity challenged" Legion wagon is by luring them in with the art...
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Scott Kolins is the guy who drew the messed-up Timber Wolf cover for the most recent issue of S&LSH. If that cover is representative, my preference would be not to have to look at his work ever again.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Oh no he did do that new Legion cover. Now I'm getting paranoid. I think Kolins is a decent artist and a nice guy. I think Geoff like working with him (Flash). But unless it's a mini or a fill in I'm really not that interested.

Sure there are lots of people that love his work but lots of people that hate his work as well. I don't know if you want a love/hate guy to jump start a series. ohwell my Kolins rant is over.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Ugh, Johns/Kolins would be a nightmare come true. The only reason I'm giving this speculation any credence at all is DC's mystifying decision to replace Dennis' cover with Kolins'. I pray they weren't trying to tell us something.
 

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Posted by Malvolio on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chemical King:
Scott Kolins? Isn't that one of those no-name pinch hitter /artists?

Yeah if they want a book to fail, they improve the chances by assigning it to such a low-budget artist...

I really hope that should there be a LS-Legion book, that they actually give it to an decent artist (not to dream about Pérez or Frank) cause, let's face it: The art is still like the calling card of a book. If it looks lousy, nobody will pick it up no matter how good the stuff is written. But if a great cover kind of jumps at you from the shelves... you'll pick it up even if you don't care about the content that much.

Probably the only way to get more new readers to jump on the "continuity challenged" Legion wagon is by luring them in with the art...

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Oh, I might buy a single issue for a great cover, but if the story stinks, I won't buy the next issue. You know, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
If it's the Legion I'll buy it anyway and then gripe about it for months, but really it'd be a nightmare come true if a new title has bad art from the first issue...
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
I liked Kolins on the Flash, I actually prefered his art to Porter's, however, I can't see him doing a team book. His art never struck me as being able to handle lots of people at once, he did great cities and placing individuals in them, but I couldn't see him doing a story where 10 people are all fighting at once and being able to keep track of them.

Still, I like his art and wouldn't mind seeing him and Geoff working together on an individual title, but just don't see it for a team book (of course there aren't that many artists that I actually see doing a team book anyways)
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
They just have to get Pérez, who loves team books and did every one of them out on the market - except for the Legion, which ironically was his favorite comic book when he was young.

So? Any further questions? Give him the money he's asking for, get him of Brave and the Bold and let him do his magic - and we have a winner book in our hands...
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Steve Lightle also loves the Legion and has expressed his desire to be the artist on the book many times. His art was and is fantastic!
Considering there are few good artists who want to draw a comic with a gazillion characters are, it doesn't make sense NOT giving it to artists who want to do it and have proven their previous runs on the Legion were successful and loved. Like Perez (of course) or Lightle.

[ October 25, 2007, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
While I was a huge fan of Perez back in the Teen Titans day, his more recent stuff doesn't work for me as well. I don't know if he's changed artistically, or my tastes have. Steve Lightle, on the other hand, drew some great Legion.

Maybe it's because I first saw Lightle's art on the Legion, and I've mentally pigeon-holed Perez as 'the Titans artist' and can't adjust to his work on other titles (like the Avengers, which didn't look quite right under his pen, IMO).
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Oh really loved his Avengers stuff, Set, so I have to disagree. But I can understand your feelings because I was not overly happy with his recent work on "BatB". I thought it might have been the Inker.

Lightle was very good in his glory Legion days as well, though i believe he did far less issues than you would think back then. It was LaRoque who was on board for most of the Baxter run. I especially liked Lightles cover art!
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Yes, LaRoque and Lightle were the greatest in the Baxter series. Lightle though is a Legion mega-fan and that's why he even drew very distinct facial characteristics for every Legionnaire. I couldn't believe that he went to all this "trouble"! And his last Legion issue - the one featuring Umbra in the DnA run - shows that he's stil "got it".

Anyways, there may very well be a new artist out there who'll be the next <add favorite Legion artist name>.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Scott Kolins is the guy who drew the messed-up Timber Wolf cover for the most recent issue of S&LSH. If that cover is representative, my preference would be not to have to look at his work ever again.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Chemical King:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Scott Kolins is the guy who drew the messed-up Timber Wolf cover for the most recent issue of S&LSH. If that cover is representative, my preference would be not to have to look at his work ever again.

---

Considering this f***ed up cover, you really have to wonder why DC would go to the trouble and make this "artist" go DC-exclusive......

He reminds me of all those forgotten 90s Marvel artists like Bill Jaaska (New Titans) whose art was so horrible to behold, it was an insult to the fans to even publish this stuff. Back then, you got the feeling that TPTB just did not care about the fans. I do not want to live through another example of that.

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I never thought Jaaska's work was that bad; just bland. You know, it was just there . Nothing about it ever jumped out at you.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Newsarama has an interview with new Action artist Gary Frank.

Besides a covershot, it's got sketches of 3 Legion ladies too!!


 

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Posted by Infectious Drura on :
 
Had a look at that. The artwork is lovely. But Shadow Lass looks more like a porn star than a super heroine! I know her costumes have traditionally been on the skimpy side but this is ridiculous. She's virtually naked! And those shoes with those 6 inch heels? Again, it looks like something a woman on a porn website would wear. Not appropriate.

Not because I'm prudish about sex, but I do object to women being objectified.

The other sketches are better. But why do Lydda and Ayla both have to have heels? Ayla in particular has always struck me as a sensible shoes kind of girl, but that's just me!

Someone really ought to tell Gary Frank that *gasp* women's shoes with flat heels *do* exist!

Artists that put all women characters in high heels piss me off. Long standing peeve of mine. Not all women like or want to wear heels dammit!
 

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Posted by Mediocre Boy on :
 
I totally agree that high-heeled boots are inappropriate for a variety of reasons. Objectification issues aside, I also think that it would be very hard to run and fight in high-heeled boots, too.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Who needs to run when you have a Legion Flight Ring?
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
For that matter, who needs to push the tush when you have a Legion Flight Ring? Why do any of them walk? Are there no-flight rules inside the clubhouse? Tenz would just have so much fun with a flight ring.
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
So, a scan of this terrible cover?

I loved Kollins' work on Flash. His Gorrila Grod issue stands as one of my all time favorites. I've left that issue on the night stand and stared at that art for days.


on another note, a story behind Shady's crotch armor I think is warranted. Something, maybe like an achilles "heal" kind of story from ancient Talak.


time "sphere?"

[ October 26, 2007, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
So, a scan of this terrible cover?

---

[EDIT: Bri, there's a locally hosted, non-bandwidth stealing copy of this already posted here. ]

[ October 26, 2007, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
While high heels on superheroines are impractical I don't believe that high heels define any kind of "obejctification" of women, any more than not drawing "anatomically correct" superheroes in tights is any kind of "castration".

Skimpy outfits may be appropriate for some heroines and not appropriate for others, imho. And showing some skin does not also make them porn stars, any more than a skimpy decorative high fashion swimsuit makes a woman "immoral".

I understand Infectious Drura's reservations on the matter, but I don't think they apply here.
What a person wears doesn't necessarily say anything about their morality or character or ideas unless that person explicitly makes all of the above known through words, actions and motives.
In porn sites the "motive" of wearing high heels and skimpy outfits - or lack thereof - is quite different than a superheroine's 1000 years in the future.

After all, if a person from 1907 saw a girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt he/she might very well consider that clothing extremely inappropriate.
While concerns for the objectification of women, sexual or otherwise are most certainly valid even today, I believe the time has passed when women showed their need for emancipation through what they wore. That was a valid way of "protest" in past decades, but I don't believe it says much today.

I think the costumes are lovely and modern and visually pleasing, artistically speaking. I prefer complex designs on costumes - I'm interested in futuristic costume design - so I wouldn't like to see *all* Legion ladies wearing futuristic style swimsuits - or high heels - but completely "individual" costumes like they used to have. If some of them are skimpy or even too skimpy, I think it's alright to have them. Covering every inch of male or female heroes' body in body gloves is a little boring.
I loved the new Dawnstar costume because it's very individualized, faithful to the old one (in this case that's a good thing, imho) and it's less skimpy than the old one.
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nighty:[EDIT: Bri, there's a locally hosted, non-bandwidth stealing copy of this already posted here. ]

---

Oops. Thanks, boss!

I figured if BB was asking, he'd already looked for it... sorry I didn't check for it myself!

But Midtown ripped me off on shipping once, so I don't feel -that- bad about stealing their bandwidth once in awhile...
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
What do you have against this Shadow Lass sketch - is virtually the same costume she wore for a decade... before that rather terrible black one which hid all her hair made her look like a future nun later on

I never was much into her character, never could get interested in a blue woman somehow But that costume sketch - it's a classic!

I think that the Night Girl sketch with the owlish pattern in front is rather funny, but I don't know if it's meant to be funny Can't wait to see the Action storyline, I'm really excited about all the old things reappearing...

As for woman wearing sexy costumes: Yeah well, of course, that never made sense. But this is comics - super hero comics to boot - and it's always been about colourful, skimpy costumes until the 80s. Now mix the costumes with a good story - wonderful!
 

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Posted by Tamper Lad on :
 
I just read the first issue of Action.

And wow in the Adventure 247 redux, Imra's much more of a hussy now than she was 50 years ago. I heartily approve.

The scenes in the future does have a bit of a 5YL feel to them.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
WILDFIRE! Woohoo - I wasn't expecting to see him again so soon. Not really crazy about the design, but better that than nothing at all (and from what little we've seen, he does seem like the same ol' Drake. Wonder if that's still supposed to be Red Tornado's body.

I'm really liking the art here. It's better than when Frank was on Supreme Power and the coloring is amazing (minor errors aside - I was wondering what "liens go home" was til I found the outline of the "A")

Brainiac 5's "attention getting device" was a bit showy though fun. Very convenient though that the screen just happened to be in the face where Superman ripped it open.

And I thought Superman was able to store yellow sun energy in his body even under a red sun. I can maybe understand his hand being less invulnerable, but he should still be able to fly on his own.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Could somebody post a page or a couple of panels from Action featuring the "new" Legion, for those of us who have to wait 1-2 weeks till we get the magazine, please?

[ October 31, 2007, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by reckless on :
 
I don't have a scanner, so I'm sorry.

I really liked the story and am looking forward to this arc. I agree that Saturn Girl is a bit more of a bombshell than in the early years.

I loved the two-page spread with the Adventure-era legion, but did catch the error of having Ferro Lad and Timber Wolf in the same picture. Also, Chemical King is not in the picture and Triplicate Girl is shown, even though she was Duo Damsel by the time Timber Wolf joined.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 




Click here for an extra large version.


 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
OH! Oh, thank you Nightcrawler! Oh, God they are...amazing!
I've got half a mind to get on a plane, go to England and buy it today...(unfortunately I also have half a wallet).

That last scan gives me the impression that that Legion may well be the "Best of All Worlds".
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
The cover looks even better on real live paper than the online images. A powerful image that really jumps out at you from the rack at the comic book shop.

My reactions to the interior images are mixed. Cosmic Boy and Lightning Lad work for me. Saturn girl doesn't look right for some reason.
Colossol Boy's new look is great.Dawnstar and Wildfire, eh, not so much.

The issue only furthers the debate on whether this can honestly be called the "original" Legion, or if it is yet another reboot/reimagining. This is not the story that appeared in Adventure #247. It has a lot of the elements of that story, but some important differences. I'm in the "this is not the original" camp. Fortunately, I'm not in the "if I don't get the original back I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue and never buy another DC comic as long as I live" camp. The story has my interest. I'm curious as to why Earth now has a red sun, and anxious to see where this all goes.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Well, obviously Earth's sun was never red in the "original" Legion, so that says a lot about "this" Legion's world.

quote:

---

I'm not in the "if I don't get the original back I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue and never buy another DC comic as long as I live" camp.

---

Neither am I. This Legion seems "close" to the original and since a big part of the continuity of the original Legion- whichever that is - "happened" in this one, and the characters are also "close" to the original, I'm satisfied.
 

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Posted by reckless on :
 
I was confused about the changes to Dawnstar and Wildfire. From the story, these Legionnaires are only slightly more than six months removed from the Lightning Saga. So it seem weird that Dawnstar's and Wildfire's looks would have changed so much. I hope they don't change every Legionnaire's look after using the silver age looks to convince the readers that this is the same as the pre-boot Legion.

Or are the new looks a hint that maybe this is not the Lightning Saga Legion at all Maybe this is another universe Legion that knew about the Lightning Saga and used that to trick Superman into coming to the 30th century.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
It is unusual for all/most Legionnaires to get new costumes simultaneously, but it's happened before.
In the late Baxter issues they all got new costumes designed by Computo.
You know. The ones with the humongous shoulder pads and dozens of pockets you could carry an entire household in.
 

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Posted by MYG on :
 
In any case, it looks like 2008 (3008) is going to be a huge year for the Legion. I can't wait!!!
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Superman's hand is bleeding. That certainly has got something to do with the red sun but he is flying...oh, wait! He's also wearing a Legion flight ring! That explains the flying.
Oooooh, this has *gotta* be good!!
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
You guys probably have already read Action #858 so the answer to my question may have already been answered there but, how do you explain this?

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct07/previews/Geoff_Johns_31st.html

How come Superman doesn't remember Brainiac 5 and seems surprised at learning Brainy comes from his future since he definitely knew the Legionnaires in Lightning Saga?
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
Yeah, what Dain said.


Loved the artwork overall, though the eyes were kind of big and scarey and the skintones yellowish in some panels.

LOVED the 2 page splash of the silver age Legion. Didn't really bother me that Triplicate Girl and Ferro Lad were included with members who came later. I took it to be a representation of all the Legion from that area and not a particular moment in time, if that makes sense. (though Chem and Kara were missing, natch).
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 
Nice variation of the baxter Legion logo...

Interesting that they tweaked the logo...
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I think I've stumbled across a plot point here.

1. The sun of 3007 (or whenever it is) is red.
1a. It was yellow the last time Superman saw it.
1b. A sun can't change colour naturally in such a short time, and anyway a red sun is so much bigger than a yellow sun that if it changed naturally in that time, Earth would be a cinder, if that.
1c. Therefore someone must have tampered with it.
2. Starman mentioned, in the Lightning Saga, that Sun Boy was missing.
3. I propose that these things are related.
4. Dr. Regulus?
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Pffft. After all the false advertising about "the original Legion", Johns doesn't even make a half-hearted attempt to honor the Legion's first and most seminal story. What we get in its place is a garish splash page plus four pages of vapid and pedestrian banter. The founders didn't come to invite Clark to join the Legion---he pleads with them to go to future. No reimagined retro space-age costumes, no initiation pranks, no Martian ice cream parlor, no yammering, bubble-headed Cosmic Boy, and a grossly mischaracterized Saturn Girl to boot. The time sphere is the only relic of Otto Binder's far superior story. Imo, the only thing Johns accomplished here is to sap all the magic out of the first meeting of Clark Kent and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

The art didn't work for me. Dawnstar looks 45 years old. Even the teenage versions of the Legionnaries look old. Everyone's eyes bulge out like they have thyroid disease.

I gather the first few pages were meant to set up the alien pogrom in the 31st century, but as a "homage" to Kal-El's legendary flight from Krypton, it's pretty noxious stuff. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I don't care to see child killing become standard fare in super-hero comics. This is the second time in recent memory, the first perpetrated by Johns, much more graphically, in one of the earlier issues of JSA.

At least the "original Legion" debate can be laid to rest. It's not them. And no, they're not close enough for me. Thank Rao there are alternatives.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Well, it would have been great to have the original story reproduced exactly, but we can't have that, can we? There's no Superboy.

I agree though that the original costumes of the 3 Legionnaires would have been a nice touch, even in a somewhat modernized version.
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tromium:
Pffft. After all the false advertising about "the original Legion", Johns doesn't even make a half-hearted attempt to honor the Legion's first and most seminal story. What we get in its place is a garish splash page plus four pages of vapid and pedestrian banter. The founders didn't come to invite Clark to join the Legion---he pleads with them to go to future. No reimagined retro space-age costumes, no initiation pranks, no Martian ice cream parlor, no yammering, bubble-headed Cosmic Boy, and a grossly mischaracterized Saturn Girl to boot. The time sphere is the only relic of Otto Binder's far superior story. Imo, the only thing Johns accomplished here is to sap all the magic out of the first meeting of Clark Kent and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

The art didn't work for me. Dawnstar looks 45 years old. Even the teenage versions of the Legionnaries look old. Everyone's eyes bulge out like they have thyroid disease.

I gather the first few pages were meant to set up the alien pogrom in the 31st century, but as a "homage" to Kal-El's legendary flight from Krypton, it's pretty noxious stuff. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I don't care to see child killing become standard fare in super-hero comics. This is the second time in recent memory, the first perpetrated by Johns, much more graphically, in one of the earlier issues of JSA.

At least the "original Legion" debate can be laid to rest. It's not them. And no, they're not close enough for me. Thank Rao there are alternatives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
Well, it would have been great to have the original story reproduced exactly, but we can't have that, can we? There's no Superboy.

I agree though that the original costumes of the 3 Legionnaires would have been a nice touch, even in a somewhat modernized version.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:


How come Superman doesn't remember Brainiac 5 and seems surprised at learning Brainy comes from his future since he definitely knew the Legionnaires in Lightning Saga?

---

Given Saturn Girl's new personality, I wouldn't be surprised if Supes cant remember the Legion after crisis because she badly botched a mindwipe after having s fling with poor confused Kal-El. Didn't Supergirl set them up a few times back in the day?

And yes Tromium figured out what really bothered me about the look of the founders in the flashback. Imra, in particular, a bad case of hyperthyroidism. I didn't mind that look once Kal went to the future though, its clear they're under lots of stress.

As for the story itself funny how they keep coming back to the Xenophobia angle. I don't think it was ever a part of the LSH until Levitz installed the polymer shield. After that, successive writers have consistently remixed the concept. It was a driving undercurrent of both TMK and the early ZH Legion and Id argue that the current fear of the unknown in the threeboot is just a remix of it. So GJ is just giving a fourth remix of the xenophobic future and we'll see what comes of it.

And my reaction to the baby scene is a comment on the change in the American socialpolitical landscape since the 1930s. I find it sad that the Kents' acceptance of Ka-El requires more suspension of disbelief than the scene in this issue.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 
I'm excited about the images I've seen and can't wait to get to the CBS this weekend.

I disagree with Gary Frank nay-sayers. I think his art looks spectacular and is very welcome.
 

---

Posted by Pariscub on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cobalt Kid:
I'm excited about the images I've seen and can't wait to get to the CBS this weekend.

I disagree with Gary Frank nay-sayers. I think his art looks spectacular and is very welcome.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
Well, we can't have the "original legion" back anyway, as their story has been changed both by Crisis on Infinite Earths and in completely unknown ways by Infinite Crisis, so i don't mind an "updated" origin story as, after all, we didn't know how Superman met the Legion in the New Earth continuity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
Well, we can't have the "original legion" back anyway, as their story has been changed both by Crisis on Infinite Earths and in completely unknown ways by Infinite Crisis, so i don't mind an "updated" origin story as, after all, we didn't know how Superman met the Legion in the New Earth continuity.

---

You see... I don't understand this at all. Why exactly can't we have the original Legion back? It seems to me DC could just say, "Oh yeah, we're going to start publishing the original Legion again, and all their continuity up to point X is intact", and there you go. What exactly is stopping them?

What we can't have is the original Legion back and have it's continuity square with the mess that DC has made of the rest of their universe. But I could care less about that. We've done the "something resembling the original Legion but with their history changed to fit with our current version of the present DCU" thing repeatedly since Crisis. Why should I think this is any different?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blockade Boy:
Not knowing the "current" run all that well, is it possible that this is some "past" of the current Legion?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:
They could absolutely do that if they wanted to. As long as, you know, they didn't use the word 'Superboy'. That would be the only problem.

---

quote:

---

That scene in LS where he says simply "We were Legion" made me want to stand up and say "YEAHHHH" with my fist in the air!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimgallagher:
Man! There is NO pleasing some people. And I thought I was a harsh critic.


I don't get it. There seem to be so many people hating the artwork and writing on this story (which, overall, I quite liked) and raving about the same on the SLSH #35 story, which doesn't appeal to me at all. I have to go read them both again to see what everyone loves/hates so much.

---

Oh I prefer by far the Action Comiss story to the very disappointing Bedard run. I'm not a big fan of Gary Frank, but I prefer by far his clean pencil to Calero's confusing artwork.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Mike Grell's cover (uncolored) for Action #861 is up at the Catskill Comics site (link posted by CC over at comicboards.com/superboy). Legion vs the "Justice League" of the 31st century.

The image is too big to post but here's the direct link: http://www.catskillcomics.com/GrellOA/Action861cover.jpg

Nice cover but have I ever said how much I loathe this neo-Nazi stuff? Well, I'm saying it now.
 

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Posted by Vee on :
 
That is such a classic looking Grell cover! I think I've died and gone to heaven.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
It IS a classic looking Grell cover! Even his pencils are very tight and clear like they used to be, unlike his more recent works.

Thanks for posting the link, Tromium.
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
Hey! What happend to Light Lass's emblem on the splash page?
 

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Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
 
OK, something I was thinking about and a nagging little irritation.

The Founders say to Clark "Oh you have never seen flying kids before." Yet in this Post-Crisis Earth, we have the Justice Society that fought in WWII. So flying people, although probably not common, would not be unknown. Kind of takes away the whole alienated Clark vibe.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
True, but this is in small-town Kansas, pre-internet and pre-cable.
 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 
I'm sure I remember an issue from a couple of years back with a young Clark dreaming about the JSA after watching old footage...
 

---

Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by reckless:
I was confused about the changes to Dawnstar and Wildfire. From the story, these Legionnaires are only slightly more than six months removed from the Lightning Saga. So it seem weird that Dawnstar's and Wildfire's looks would have changed so much. I hope they don't change every Legionnaire's look after using the silver age looks to convince the readers that this is the same as the pre-boot Legion.

Or are the new looks a hint that maybe this is not the Lightning Saga Legion at all Maybe this is another universe Legion that knew about the Lightning Saga and used that to trick Superman into coming to the 30th century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
Looks like Brainiac Five is back in the mix by this issue. Polar Boy too. And, could that be Lightning Lord that Dawnstar is toying with?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimgallagher:
Man! There is NO pleasing some people. And I thought I was a harsh critic.

---

We're notorious for it.

So, I got my copy of Action late but at least I the got it. There's something wrong with this Superman. I'm betting that this is one of those alternate Earths. The origin's off, the coloring's off, the art's off, are these guys Qwardian or something?

Could it be that "The Three Legions" will be alternate Earth Legionnaires we've never actually seen before? That would be disappointing, I was hoping for different eras or "restore points" for various LSH versions. It would make us all happier to see the DnA Legion fight alongside the WnK Legion as well as filling out the story with pre-Crisis Legionnaires.

The "thousand years in the past" bit confuses me too. What does Superman's history have to do with a planetary civil war? Are we going to find out more about the farmer and the alien baby? Following Jor-El's example may not be such a good idea.
I mean, I may love the stories about King Arthur but I'm hardly going to bundle up my child and ship him off to England.

I almost feel like I'm reading a random issue of last year's Supergirl series...wtf?..
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Hopefully enough time has passed to fill in some gaps...

Here's the Alternate Cover -








 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Here's the Grell cover for posterity (when the link no longer works) -


 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
Is it just me or does this Saturn Girl really look a lot like Anna Nichole Smith?..without the implants..
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
Blech. I hate Grell's artwork.
 

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Posted by Malvolio on :
 
I've always liked Grell, but I will admit that cover does look a little bit too busy.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
Having seen some of his pencils I'd really love to see this cover without the inks. At least it IS busy, I always hated the empty backgrounds in so much of Mike Grell's art.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I liked the story but admit was taken back with some stuff.

The Clark/Legion meeting was certainly too much of a difference. I am one of the ones defending Geoff's "original" Legion comment but will no longer do so.

As for Gary Frank? I like him but don't love him. I agree with Pariscub that he draws crazy eyes on everybody! Don't love the new costumes but don't hate them either. If this version of the Legion gets their own comic I would certainly like new costumes.

What won me over? It's somewhat like the PC Legion. We haven't seen the "original" anything from DC in decades. It's not the original JSA, JLA, Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. I just hope there are not too many retcons with this Legion.

The characters in this story are some of my favorites. Colossal Boy, Wildfire and Dawnstar!
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by reckless:
I was confused about the changes to Dawnstar and Wildfire. From the story, these Legionnaires are only slightly more than six months removed from the Lightning Saga. So it seem weird that Dawnstar's and Wildfire's looks would have changed so much. I hope they don't change every Legionnaire's look after using the silver age looks to convince the readers that this is the same as the pre-boot Legion.

---

I love Wildfire's look actually! Kudos to Frank on him. One of the best Wildfire's I've seen.

Colossal Boy? Eh. What do they have against the headgear. Dawnstar? There isn't much you can do with her costume but all the lines and stuff? eh.
 

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Posted by MYG on :
 
I'm starting to get excited about the Legion again. This seems to be the closest to the "original" LSH that I've seen in years. The Dawnstar costume looks like a variant of whatever she was wearing in her first appearence when R.J. Brande sought her out to join the Legion Academy
 

---

Posted by Pariscub on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MYG:
I'm starting to get excited about the Legion again. This seems to be the closest to the "original" LSH that I've seen in years. The Dawnstar costume looks like a variant of whatever she was wearing in her first appearence when R.J. Brande sought her out to join the Legion Academy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MYG:
[qb]

Dawnstar's first appearance? Wasn't it in the story with the pirate when she joins the Legion? I don't remember Dawnstar ever going to the academy. Which issue was that?

---

Wasn't Dawnstar's first appearance in the issue following Chemical King's death where Wildfire brings her in to track down his killers (the Dark
Circle I think?)
 

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Posted by KryptonKid on :
 
No, Dawnstar was a member when Chem died, and was seen morning him in the following issue, IIRC.


:tizzles:
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
Hee-hee... I was still slowly scrolling as I read the last post and I thought KryptonKid was saying that Dawnstar was *mooning* Chemical King after he died.

Those strange Starhaven customs...
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Dawnstar can moon me anytime.

Wait that means I'll be dead. (weighing my the options) It may be worth it?
 

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Posted by doublechinner on :
 
My main complaint (already aptly identified here) was the lame, abbreviated first meeting between Clark and the Legion. It should have been momentous, and instead rushed. I can undertand not doing the whole hazing/tryout thing, but it might have been fun to have the original 3 trying (and failing) badly to meet Clark with secret identities. Anyway, it should have been fun, and instead it was peremptory.

I also thought the Clark at the Daily Planet seens were WAY offbase. For one thing, Johns is just copying $&!^ from the Superman movie. Two, it is completely out of character with the current portrayal. Criticize Clark for being lazy, absent, unreliable, but not unlikable. Obviously, this was done to emphasize the contrast with his friends in the Legion, but it was still out of character.

The final thing that was wierd was seeing the Adventure Era costumes. I know these things are sacred around here, and I cherish them too, but I have increasingly come to regard the Adventure Era imagery as a period piece. Seeing it in a contemporary comic is...weird. After all, as someone said above, the Silver Age, Earth-1 Superman doesn't exist anymore, but all of a sudden his Legion does? Weird.

Speaking of weird, that's what Frank's art is. I can't believe people would complain about Dennis Calaro but rave about Frank. The 3 founders looked like they just left an all-night Ecstasy party or something. Man. Those eyes are SO freaky.

Having said all that, once Supes arrived in the 31C, I really enjoyed the book. Seems like an epic, important story, and John's scripting of the Legionnaires themselves was fine, and the Wildfire costume kicks nass! The red sun thing seems cool.

I don't mind the xenophobia storyline. Frankly, this is an important type of story to tell these days, and as long as Johns can wrap the message in something exciting and character-driven, I'm down with that. The prologue WAS horrific, but I think that's the point, and I loved the Twilight-Zonish irony of it. It's always been one of those interesting questions: did the Kents keep Kal-El because they were so kind, or because he LOOKED exactly human? What if he had looked like J'onn J'onzz, or that poor alien kid? Would they have loved him anyway, and hid him away, and protected him, and made Smallville accept him?

Another point is the "bright future" thing. I've always been a dissenter in the complaints about the future of the 3boot, based on actual Legion history as much as anything. Just because the Silver Age Legion had a 9 Planets Ice Cream Shop doesn't mean it was all sweetness and light, just like the real 1950s were as much about repression and suppressed fear of annihilation as they were about sock hops and panty raids. Nuclear war, alien invasions, mind-controlling dictators, murderous machines, Great Darknesses, fireballing, pervasive surveillance, economic collapse, chronic underemployment, interplanetary starvation. All were an integral part of that original Legion. The important thing is the LEGION to be hopeful and optimistic, not necessarily the larger society it lives in.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by doublechinner:
The important thing is the LEGION to be hopeful and optimistic, not necessarily the larger society it lives in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
Overall, I enjoyed the issue. My quibbles were small.

Despite the Lightning Saga euphoria of seeing the Levitz Legion back, there are more and more clear differences emerging, but that's okay. It is still ringing truer to LSH than most recent versions, and not just because of costumes.

Gary Frank's Superman does not look as robust, as demigodlike as others; the KC Superman appearing in JSA is a striking contrast to Frank's. That said, despite Frank's odd eyes, I do enjoy his style.

I was glad when the mild/meek Clark was nixed (the single best thing Byrne did), and am not a fan of the shy geek (having been in the biz myself, I cannot imagine such a person being a successful journalist at all, let alone one of a major urban paper's top journalists). But I can accept it; it's been part of the mythos so long. I have no idea what the current CK portrayal is like, and outside of All-Star Supe I'm not likely to find out.

The Brainiac robot intro seems a bitover the top to attract Kal's attention, but it made for an action-y visual, rather than just being summoned to a remote time bubble (or whatever they were calling it this issue).

I liked the flashback; since there was no secret ID, the whole secret-ID name-calling bit wouldn't have worked (the best they could have done there is imitate the scene in Foundations pt. 1 anyway).

So the first meeting was not that 247ish, but it worked, and it was enjoyable. Just as the Action annual with Mon-El was not 100% true to "Superboy's Big Brother," it worked - with enough linkage to the past and enough differentiation to offer a new take as well.

The Silver costumes are now Retro enough to work in their own right; whereas the new (post-)Levitz costumes intro'd here also worked (much better than advance art suggested). The feel of this LSH's world hints of TMK bleakness, which is appropriate for a post-Levitz-ish era as it is. You have a team that grew from teen to young adult together, and defended the galaxy against an array of threats and menaces; sooner or later one can't simply "top" the previous menace (be it Darkseid or the ultimate Trapper scheme), and eroding the socio-political support base is a logical next step in the story: How does a now-matured team fight to uphold a good that is no longer an institutional one?

A presumably artificial red sun makes perfect sense given the Lightning Saga: how else could the future truly not be safe for Superman? Obvious but clever. So why did Brainy send for Kal? Based on L-Saga comments, clearly the sun was already red... did Brainy have a way around this? Was he compromised before his disappearance?

I'm enjoying the story thus far, and look forward to more.

---

quote:

---

Spinning out of the hit storyline “The Lightning Saga,” ACTION COMICS #858 — the first chapter of the 6-part story “Superman and The Legion of Super-Heroes” — has sold out at DC Comics and is being rushed back to press.

“It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to be working with Gary Frank on ACTION COMIICS,” says writer Geoff Johns. “It's nice to see his dedication to Superman and his unbelievable artwork rewarded. Thanks to everyone who picked up the issue and spread the word. And thanks to DC for keeping it in print!”

ACTION COMICS #858 Second Printing (SEP078123) features a recolored version of the cover by Gary Frank and is scheduled to arrive in stores on December 5.

---

 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Sold out? Nah, the LS Legion or a Pre-Crisis type Legion can't sell comics?!

I don't know but I just always knew that if they returned to something more similiar to the old/original Legion it would sell like hotcakes.
 

---

Posted by Dain on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wild Jorge:
Sold out? Nah, the LS Legion or a Pre-Crisis type Legion can't sell comics?!

I don't know but I just always knew that if they returned to something more similiar to the old/original Legion it would sell like hotcakes.

---

Yeah, and what's even more "shocking" is there are young people who love the Legion in Action and got interested in the Legion, in general, because of Lightning Saga and the Action storyline who had never heard and/or cared about the Legion before. Imagine that!
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I finally, finally finally got my comics today - and while I usually first read the Previews catalogue and the Wizard Magazine, this time I immediately delved into the Action issue. By sheer luck, TV repeated last weeks game of my favorite club Stuttgart beating the crap out of my most hated club Bayern Munich, so that was a nice feature in the background while reading

I have to say it: I LOOOOOVED this book. Even the Superman part at the beginning - being very iconic in its Clark Kent approach - was interesting, and the flashback, the wonderful two-page spread (with Chemical King missing!!!) and the part in the future were brilliant. I very much liked the surprise ending - the sun being red - thus immediately making Superman a more interesting character. Wow!

I liked Colossal Boys new costume, did not care that much for Wildfires new suit.

All in all: I am very very optimistic that not only will the classic Legion be returning, but that it will be in a very swell storyline which is brilliantly drawn to boot. Excellent!

My special love for dystopian future scenarios seems to get satisfied as well. So... when they HAVE to leave 5YL out of the new continuity, why not just do a new 5YL or 10YL - it's a logical conclusion.

I am very happy to hear that this issue has sold out, by the way. Makes me even more optimistic that the classic Legions return will not just be for one event... but maybe... for a permanent stint a la JSA.

Just happy. Going to read the rest of my comics now...
 

---

Posted by Dain on :
 
I knew you'd love it, Chem!
A regular series with that Legion has GOTTA be around the corner!
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wild Jorge:
Sold out? Nah, the LS Legion or a Pre-Crisis type Legion can't sell comics?!

I don't know but I just always knew that if they returned to something more similiar to the old/original Legion it would sell like hotcakes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wild Jorge:
Sold out? Nah, the LS Legion or a Pre-Crisis type Legion can't sell comics?!

I don't know but I just always knew that if they returned to something more similiar to the old/original Legion it would sell like hotcakes.

---

...and to all tohse who say/said a Levitz-esque Legion would only be pandering to a handful of old fogies, I most heartily say...

Bah!

...and...

I told you so!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:
And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:


And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

---

You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before".
That is a fact. You may choose to disregard it as irrelevant, but it remains a fact. Certain people may feel it's impossible to like the Legion in Action more than the WaK one, but I feel that's an emotional and sentimental response because of *their* emotional investment in the current Legion, like you yourself have pointed out - beautifully and eloquently - in your blog.
It's obvious that the artificial dichotomy "Old Legion for old people - New Legion for young people" has crumbled. Young people can like the old Legion fine if it's part of a good story.

[ November 16, 2007, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I said:

quote:

---

And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

---

quote:

---

I respect your right to believe as you will.

But when I am a new reader onto a book, I am more intrigued by a rich backstory to delve into than a flashy car spinning its wheels in the mud.

---

quote:

---

You may refuse to believe it Matthew, but it's a fact. They don't "automatically" prefer anything. They just like it better and in several forums there've been people who said just that. "I love the Legion in Action and had never read the Legion before".

---

quote:

---

Matthew E. you preach "lets all the Legions get along" but then you seem to really try and knock THIS Legion. I've seen you do it here, on Geoff's boards and Newsarama.

People are getting excited over THIS Legion. That doesn't mean they are dogging the current Legion. I am personally very excited about Shooter & fjm on the other Legion.

But god forbid we celebrate THIS Legion. Practice what you preach. Lets not turn these Legion against each other. You think because people celebrate THIS Legion they are dogging the other one. You are dogging this Legion.

---

I am trying very hard not to do exactly what you said I am doing.

It is true that I have some objections to how DC is presenting Johns's Legion to us, and I have not been shy about saying so.

But I have also said that there have been lots of times when DC has made decisions about the Legion that I didn't agree with, and good Legion comics have come of it anyway. Since it's Geoff Johns who's writing about this Legion, I fully expect that this will be another such time. I have never said that this was a bad version of the Legion or that the stories containing them were bad.

One thing I have said is this: we don't know anything about this Legion yet. We know that they're based on the original Legion, but we also know that Johns feels free to take some liberties with the source material. We don't know much about his take on them yet. I am optimistic about the quality of the storytelling and characterization we're going to see with regards to this Legion, but all it is is optimism. It's not based on anything we've seen so far. What have we seen so far? Have we seen any Legion stories starring this Legion? We have not. We have seen:
- a JLA/JSA story in which a few Legionnaires appeared. Almost all the time they were onscreen they were amnesiac or acting deceptively
- one issue of a Superman story in which a few Legionnaires appeared

When I actually see something from this Legion, good or bad, I'll say so. I'll 'celebrate' them once I get to know them. So far I haven't seen anything.

Again: I don't have a problem with this version of the Legion. I'm looking forward to the next issue of Action. I have a problem with
- DC, for trying to pass them off as the original Legion when they're not. That's dishonest.
- the fans who are giving this Legion a free ride by pronouncing them great before they have had any great appearances in comic books, but (some of) who wouldn't walk across the street to spit on the 5YL, reboot or threeboot Legions despite the great appearances in comic books those versions have had.

And I think that's perfectly fair.
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Fair enough Matthew.
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
I did some research but I am not as good about the sales stuff as other guys here.

The last Johns-Donner-Kubert issue was was ranked #54 in the top 100. I saw some of the other months with that creative team and they were similiar.

So it seems Action isn't selling well even with star creators (Johns/Donner/Kubert!).

Speaking of star creators Waid/Kitson are pretty big names. It didn't equate to big sales either.

So it's either Gary Frank is a much bigger name than I thought or this Legion has drawn lots of attention.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
That's true. And I had thought of that. But there's also the issue of how hard DC has been pushing and hyping the arc that started with #858; that probably had some effect.

I don't deny that the presence of Johns's revival Legion has had a positive effect. I just don't know how much of an effect, and it's not the only factor.
 

---

Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.

---

Yes and we have been waiting for their return for over twenty years now.

Long Live THE LEGION!

[ November 16, 2007, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Lone Wolf Legionnaire ]
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?
 

---

Posted by Wild Cobalt on :
 
Good point Nighty. Interesting.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
A couple of points regarding sales:

1) Don't underestimate the power of a good cover to move a book off the shelves. The powerful cover image got a lot of people to take a look, I bet.

2) We're discussing this from a Legion point of view. I wonder how many readers who are primarily Superman fans, and don't really know a lot about the Legion are being pulled in by Johns approach. I assume there are a few out there, and imagine their reactions might mirror that of some Superboy fans back in 1959.
Johns has tapped into something with this approach of throwing back to the importance of the Legion in Kal's adolescent development. It's something that Superman fans seem to be responding to as much or more than Legion fans.
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
How about the fact that the recent new Legion relaunch with a new #1 issue was much hyped (more so in my opinion than the Action arc) and it didn't sell out?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:
[QB] I don't know. But another thing to compare is:

how well Action normally sells
how well Action sells with the Legion
how well Brave and Bold normally sells
how well Brave and Bold sells with the Legion

---

quote:

---

I know there are some vocal people out there who are enthusiastic about Johns's Legion but don't give a toss about the threeboot Legion. What I don't know is how many silent ones there are. Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?

---

quote:

---

And what I refuse to believe in is that someone who's never read a Legion comic will automatically prefer to see Johns's Legion in Action Comics than the threeboot Legion in Action Comics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Actually, I think the fact that issue #858 of Action Comics sold out - , when issue #850 did not - is pretty significant. And it tells me that there must be a large percentage of "Old-School" Legion fans out there waiting for any Pre-Crisis version of the team to re-emerge.

---

Even more astounding as you can see that the Legion IS NOT EVEN ON THE COVER of Action #858 (only mentioned, but no picture)...

I have to say that I did not get the Action Annual with the Legion cause I just did not care enough for the Threeboot to spend the money (considering the fact that since the 90s, Annuals are mostly crap anyway... crappy story, crappy art, all crappy )

And the Legion WAS on the cover there...

But what I really think we need to make sure that what we feel is right - that the classic Legion sells more books - are the numbers Matthew mentioned above. Does anybody have the opportunity to get them???
 

---

Posted by Reboot on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
it's always been that Iconic look that's been represented in house ads,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pariscub:
or, with maybe one exception or two, in other projects showing the Legion in one panel (like Alex Ross's projects).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.

I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.

My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.

If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?

It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot, 5YL, Johns, or even post-Crisis Levitz, while insisting that Threeboot is somehow more tightly connected with Silver/original LSH at all. I've seen several do it, and it is totally mind-boggling.

I for one am glad we do have multiple versions to support or not. It certainly beats there being no Legion published at all.

My point is that a bunch of people seem to be using selective and arbitrary double standards to put down the Johns Legion in such a way as to imply that Threeboot is somehow a better product.

If Threeboot is threatened by a variant Legion, why not rail against the animated book/series?

It seems clear that some Threeboot supporters are threatened by the sheer notion of a Legion version closer to the original, instead of worrying about why Threeboot has been so lackluster for almost all of the past three years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tromium:
[It's not that the Johnsboot Legion threatens the 3boot Legion -- it threatens the original Legion. It replaces it, precludes its very existence now and in the future. It's the anti-original Legion, imo. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.

---

quote:

---

You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?

---

quote:

---

In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered.

---

quote:

---

If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.

---

quote:

---

I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
How can it "threaten" something that's has been practically dead for almost 2 decades?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
My point, Tromium, is that a criterion, a standard or a maxim, can and should be used fairly in all cases, otherwise the person who uses it in an argument loses all objectivity and his rationale falls flat.

---

Oh, but I do have objective standards and criteria for determining such things, and they are very fair and emprically sound, imo. I'm an amateur local historian to whom the word "original" has special significance. So, let's say I have copies of original church records I discovered in some dusty, moldy archive proving John C. Smith, born 21 September 1739 in Pleasantville OH was a Quaker farmer who was trampled to death by oxen in 1781, when some bigwig historian with two Ph.D.s wrote a 280 page dissertation insisting he was the Episcopalian blacksmith who shoed George Washington's horse at Yorktown in 1783. I won't relent until that bigwig historian admits in print in a recognized scholarly journal that he was wrong and publishes the real story of John C. Smith -- however "mountain out of molehill" trivial it might seem to the vast majority of people -- simply because it's the historical truth.

Same with the original Legion -- and it doesn't matter one bit that it's a work of fiction -- it has its own a historical truth. I have all the documents (old Legion comic book stories written before Crisis) I need in evidence that the Johnsboot isn't the original Legion, and DC's pronouncements to the contrary won't make me surrender my stance. Their ownership of the property has no bearing on the argument. If it did, their commercial interests would be a point against them.

In addition to empirical proofs, I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.

So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.

I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...

So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chemical King:
I really think this is an academic discussion... instead of being bothered that Johns might have changed some element of the classic Legion, I am so happy that something that very much resembles the classic Legion is being reintroduced into the DCU.

I don't care if there are minor changes, I can accept a Legion as shown in LS and in #858 as the sequel of the Pre-Crisis Legion and thoroughly, oh so thoroughly enjoy it. Much more than I ever enjoyed the Threeboot - which in my eyes really did not have many big moments, and I just re-read it completely last month - or the Reboot cause both were much more different from the original than Johns attempt seems to be...

So do I care if it's original or classic? No, I'm happy that "the Legion" is back - and I'm very sorry for those of you who can't enjoy it like I do.... you're missing a great thrill

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Newell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...

---

This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.

There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.

I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Newell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
...but for DC to pull something like bringing back something that kind of resembles the original Legion but isn't...

---

This, I think, is my problem with that aspect of the argument.

There are so many instances of the Silver Age/ Pre-Crisis Legion being so different to each other, thanks to different creative teams.

I hardly see the difference between Wildfire being "Red Tornado", Karate Kid being alive or whatever other change Johns has made and Sun Boy suddenly becoming a philandering ladies man, Timber Wolf becoming feral or Matter-Eater Lad going from being a "stick in the mud" to a crazy jokester.

---

The way I look at it is this.

There are so many different kinds of ways in which this Legion diverges from the original Legion that, while I could look past most (if not all) of them in isolation, all together they produce a situation where I sometimes have a hard time imagining how anyone can mistake them for the original Legion.

---

Give me time, I'm sure I could make up a list showing just how many divergences there are between Shooter's Legion and Levitz's Legion.
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

You're missing my point. If these are new readers, they don't have any idea that the threeboot Legion is a flashy car spinning its wheels. They don't know anything about the rich backstory. Let me say it more carefully: A reader who has had no previous exposure to the Legion is not going to find a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Johns's Legion of Super-Heroes any more attractive to purchase than a strongly hyped Part 1 of a Johns/Frank Action story in which Superman reforges his adolescent relationship with Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes. Is that so controversial?

---

Yes and no.

In 1977, a film you may have heard of came out. It was called "Star Wars." Even though we didn't (yet) know its backstory at the time, it clearly had one, and that added mystery and a mythic quality to our experience of it.

In the 1990s, an amusing sci-fi flick called "Fifth Element" was a fun and generally well-crafted film, but what little backstory it held was sketched out in the beginning and we were not drawn to want/expect any more than what it provided. It did not attract the mythic and yes, iconic level of Star Wars.

I would suggest that both John's story and backstory (shown and implied) draw a closer parallel to the former, while Threeboot tends to be the latter. There has been little hinted at Threeboot's history pre-v.5 #1, nor have we been made to care, or anticipate revelation. (As one of many examples) The mystery of Luornu alone could have been a mythic event - what happened to her world? how/why did she alone survive? It could have been built into Lemnos or another arc... instead it was tossed aside.

You say you are trying to avoid Jorge's characterization, and I would like to believe you. But again and again you retreat into characterizing people who like this version and its story as simply based upon nostalgia.

You say people are failing to appreciate Threeboot's great moments... which great moments are these? Issue #3. Action #850. Maybe B&B. Have I missed any?

The Bedard run has had decent art and adequate stories, but still nothing to call "great." People seem more excited at seeing Wildfire then they are praising the writing.

In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered. If you are going to criticize people for not giving Threeboot its due, you should not pretend it's track record is one iota better than the Johns Legion.

Was Action #858 really hyped more than v.5 #1 or B&B or the addition of Supergirl to LSH? I don't see it. I'm sorry, but it truly does sound like you are looking for excuses to be dismissive of Johns' Legion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chemical King:
I really think this is an academic discussion...

---

quote:

---

I have my own personal experience with the Legion characters dating back to circa 1964. I think I'll know the "people" I grew up with when I see them again.. They resonated in a way the Johnsboot parodies do not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tromium:

[QUOTE]"Aw, take that magnet out of your butt and let him come with us, Rokk. Look at him, he needs a laugh."

That iconic? Mythic? Resonant? Nah, I challenge anyone here to come up with a more painfully bad line in the past 15 years of Legion comic books.

May the ghosts of Otto Binder and Mort Weisinger rise from their tombs and blow cigar smoke in GJ's face. That is my curse.

---

Well IF it was in Interlac it would've been great! As for your challenge?

"Eat it grandpa!"
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
The problem with "original" is that THAT Superboy isn't around and probably never will be. Superman has changed so much, etc.

Also what about Dev-Em? He's running around the 21st century as a Phantom Zone villain? Does this Legion not have their good ole Dev-Em?

Anyways, the next issue comes out THIS Wednesday! Yay!
 

---

Posted by Dain on :
 
Tromium said

quote:

---

So, who's not being objective? What proof do you have they are the original Legion, other than some DC bigwig saying they are?

---

quote:

---

As for empirical proof that the Legion in Action is not a "continuation" of the classic Legion, I believe you'll agree that there's very little of it yet. Concluding that it IS or it is NOT the original Legion from the available material at this point, is simply not possible.

---

Oh, I don't know; I think we've compiled some pretty good supporting evidence.
 

---

Posted by Dain on :
 
From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years?
That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary.
I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dain:
From a few guest appearances in JLA/JSA and just 1 issue of a 6-part storyline that formally reintroduces an adult Legion with a *potential* cast of dozens of characters and a *potential* history of 49 years?

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That seems to me like a foregone conclusion and gathering of anything that might resemble evidence to support that conclusion, disregarding all evidence to the contrary.

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I'm also surprised that you used the word "we". I'm not sure who those "we" might be, and who are the opponents of the "we" who would probably be called "they" from the "we" point of view.

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
Yes. Which is part of my point. I *shouldn't* be able to gather that much material from just those few appearances. The fact that I can is itself an indicator of how freely Johns and Meltzer have adapted the material.

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Originally posted by Dain:
Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years.
A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:

1. Explainable "off panel"
2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books.
3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.

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The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse.

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This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.

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Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it.

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If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
I am truly at a loss as to how anyone can dismiss other versions of Legion, be they Reboot...

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Oh, trust me, I don't find it hard at all

I'm sitting watching this debate with somewhere between dispassion and mild amusement - while preboot variations don't have that special "never ever EVER" place in my brain the "threeboot" does, I don't really care about them + it's Johns + I really don't care for current DC in general.

But, execution notwithstanding, it seems as original as the Post-Crisis/Glorithverse LoSHes - less so than the former in a lot of ways, if it rewrote the origin. Which, if applied in a relatively similar way to post-ZH, would probably make me not bother before even checking the execution, but...
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
I'll add Dev-Em fiasco to the "evidence". (i did earlier and you guys left it out!)

Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 

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Originally posted by Dain:
Matthew, believe me when I say that I haven't read and re-read a Legion comic as closely as the Lightning Saga issues and Action #858 in years.
A lot of what you, seemingly, consider "evidence" is:

1. Explainable "off panel"
2. Little retcons or inconsistencies which are a dime a dozen in comic books.
3. Discrepancies which may, or may not, be explained after the Legion storyline in Action and Countdown are completed.

I could give you examples of all of the above but I'm sure you already know them.

Even major retcons like Karate Kid alive could have occurred at some future point from where this Legion "diverges" from the original continuity. It's not like character "resurrection" is rare in comics, is it?

If there is one major "bump" that suggests this Legion may not be the "classic" one is Supergirl's role in both Legions. That won't be explained easily.
The fact that this Legion's origin is almost identical (as far as circumstances allow) to the original's one is a major evidence - but not conclusive - that this Legion is a continuation of the classic one on a divergent timeline and no less "original" than Glorithverse.
This is actual evidence, hard evidence, that points to...a certain direction. I don't think one can be objective about it if he/she tosses it aside as unimportant.

You'll notice that I didn't use DC's claims that it IS the original Legion but only evidence from the comics themselves.
Let's also keep in mind, all of us, that if a majority of fans believe this is the original Legion and/or they love it on its own merits (or hate it because of its own faults), then, for all intents and purposes it IS the original Legion with a "restored" continuity, or a divergent timeline or anything one wants to call it. If new and old readers love it, then it's *their* Legion. In that case proving or disproving anything is a moot point.

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Originally posted by Wild Jorge:
Wildfire using Red Tornado's body? I hate it but anyways that could've happened off panel post-Crisis or Magic Wars or whatever.

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above.

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above. Which is fine for them. But, I fear they will all be extremely disappointed once this Action-Arc is over and we get even more evidence of just how different it is to the "original."

The rest of us, knowing that it's different going in, will be able to handle it better.

Please add to #6 -
- no Jimmy Olsen as a member
- doubtful that Pete Ross (since no "Superboy") or Lana Lang as members

I'll also add that Karate Kid's original time-trip now seems to not exist as well. Any trip the Legion took to the 20th century especially those involving/helping Superman (which are numerous) seems gone. The original JLA/JSA/LSH team-up, Brave and the Bold and DCCP appearances are wiped out as well.

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

[QUOTE][qb]In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered.

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Name one.

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[qb]Johns's Legion doesn't have a track record yet. We've only caught glimpses of them, really.

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Yet they get bashed by some more for a few guest appearances than a starring-title version that has produced minimal fruits.

I am curious of what your definition of "righteous" is, so I'll refrain from pot/kettle comments.

The original Legion did end, whether in 1994, 1990, 1986/7, 1958 or whenever one draws the line. I concede that. I do not see the Johns Legion as any farther a leap from the original as some (but then, I have no problem with 5YL either).

What is "original?" If it wasn't published in 1958, one can argue that any variant Legion is not "original." Garth's original origin had only him on Korbal getting zapped. Mekt was added later. And then Ayla. Thus by 1963, we were already seeing variantions and changes (and don't get me started on the 21st/30th century or World Wide Police changes).

Thus far, I do not see enough differences to consider this any less authentic "original" than any other Preboot version. If one chooses to perceive differnetly, I respect your rigght to do so. But I respectfully request that you don't get "righteous" about it.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
The differences in a nutshell:
1. no Supergirl or Pocket Universe
2. Young Clark and possibly young Superman instead of Superboy
3. new twists that were not revealed Preboot but don't necessarily contradict it
4. new ties to regular DCU continuity that offer minor (at best) contradictions to Preboot
5. a handful of minor changes

okay... so we do all know this is not exactly Preboot. Instead we are arguing over semantics about how close it is, and whether its proxinity is dishonest or not. Regardless of its quality or impact on contniuity, was Byrne's Superman dishonest for ditching blue, white and plaid Krytonite or revamping what didn't work by his 80s sensibilities? Even if you didn't like it, was that "dishonest?" By all acounts, Byrne intended to get back to (what he saw as) the essence of the character.

Creators, even those trying to rebuild the past, do need some flexibility. Good stories have to take precedence over anal retentive continuity - what good is an intact continuity that no one cares about? How could anyone revive a 100% "authentic" Preboot Legion, since there are so many inconsistencies? Also, how does one pick up at, say, Crisis, without contradicting the rest of v.3 and Preboot v.4? You cannot. You have to figure out what works and run with it.

Johns has yet to show any departure greater than any other in-era modifications.

If you do not believe me, re-read Cary Bates. Re-read the early Silver issues. List al lthe post-Crisis changes. It is impossible to write anything 100% "true" to everything.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.

So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.

And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 

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Originally posted by Paul Newell:
As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.

So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?

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Some people have been arguing for years that the post-Crisis and Glorithverse Legions weren't the authentic originals, especially the Glorithverse. I know because I'm one of them. For that group of fans (not so small, I think), the Earth One Legion before Crisis -- for all its inconsistencies -- is the one and only original. So, the line of demarcation DC recently drew at Crisis seems a natural separator -- it's existed for us a very long time. The problem (my problem, specifically) is that what's been wedged in the place of those abandoned realities is just another make-believe "original" Legion.

I totally agree with your comparison of the Johnsboot and post-Crisis Legion. The situation is pretty much the same now as it was in 1986 -- which translates into very bad news. The New Earth Superboyman is quite frankly rot, imo. Not as not bad as the pocket universe superboy clone and Valor, but still rot. It's the same basic recipe for disaster DC used in 1986 and 1989 to produce the previous two make-believe "original" Legions, and it doesn't taste any better now than it did then.

Could someone fix the Johnsboot Legion after Johns lets it go? Maybe, but they'd have to fix Superman first. And the complete mess DC has made of New Earth. And the new Multiverse, too. The problem is widespread and systemic. I'm not opposed to Final Crisis wiping out the entire thing and resetting all its properties from scratch, including the Legion. It wouldn't necessarily restore the original Legion, but it couldn't be a worse situation than it is presently.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
So basically, Purists are never going to be satisfied with anything that isn't 100% true to what they want (or rather what they think they want)... IF (a very big if) all Purists could even agree on a single set of criteria. Even if most say Crisis is the point to return to, we have no guarantee that others can/will insist that some elements of post-Crisis (like Conspiracy, the Sensor Girl mystery) be included, while other might insist that pre-Secret of the Legion (or whatever) has to be the point of return.

In short, Purists are not going to be happy even if they get what they seem to be asking for.

And to get anything remotely resembling what Purists want, we have to revamp the entire DCU, re-add Supergirl, settle the Superboy lawsuits, and ignore the past 22 years, the good bad and neutral. It's a good thing they don't want much!

Okay, fine. If you want to wait for your perfect ship to come in, I cannot begrudge you that. It is going to take years for legalities, plus more corporate politicking at DC. I myself find the path of least resistance to be glad we have a cup that is at least 3/4 full than to complain that "they don't make straws the way they used to."

If I were sitting around waiting for my "perfect" Legion, I wouldn't go around arbitrarily bashing any others.

BTW, they are all "make believe" Legions.

[ November 18, 2007, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Kent Shakespeare ]
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.

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I can respect that. But to me, a 1965 Mustang is still a 1965 Mustang, even if it has new upholstering or different hubcaps.

In the context of the sheer number of changes and "course corrections" made throughout the Preboot era, I do not see anything far out of line compared with adjustments that were made during/within that period. As we learn more, I may reverse my stance.

I was not on any LSH board when Superboy's Legion came out. Was there as much horror and scorn from the Purists when that came out?
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
It was very nice of Matthew to go to all the trouble of posting everything he considers evidence that the Legion in Action is not the original one.
That gives all of us the opportunity to examine our positions better, regardless of position.

Still, as others have mentioned already, a lot of that evidence is not really contradictory to any previous continuity and we have to allow for retcons. Retcons have been a staple of comics since..well...the 1960s and it never was a big deal before as it seems to be today re the Legion.

The continuity problems he lists under "6" are definitely valid evidence that this Legion is not the original one. For now. The storyline is not complete yet. It could be sloppy writing, it could be a "red herring" DC throws at us in order to manipulate us a little so we, the fans, will create the furor over the it is/it isn't matter (and they've succeeded) , it could be something else.

What he lists under "7" and "8" is not valid evidence and some of them are simply personal preferences. It's already been established that some time, years probably, have passed since the point of departure of this Legion after Crisis, or after any other point one wants to choose. Some things will NOT be the same. They cannot be the same. Let me illustrate this with an example:

If a person read 2-3 Legion issues from the mid- 60s and 2-3 more from the mid-80s, he/she could *very easily* make a case that they are different Legions. Suppose this hypothetical reader didn't know there had been hundreds of stories that led, more or less, seamlessly into the Legion of the 80s. He/she would have found tons of evidence to support the theory that the 80s' Legion was not the original one! Even the Legion of the 70s would seem different! When did Saturn Girl turn from a rather prudish, level-headed girl into that sensual vamp? She can't be the same Saturn Girl, can she?

The difference of course is there are all those issues between the 60s and the 80s that could change his mind but, in the case of the Legion in Action, retcons will take the place of all those "unpublished" stories. I know it's a leap of faith that some people are willing to do, while others aren't and I, for one, respect that. I would definitely like ALL old stories to be preserved in any new Legion continuity. All of them! But if I had to choose between the story of Lightning Lad's death - which incidentally the Lightning Saga pays homage to and is an important evidence of the continuity of this Legion - and,say, "Supergirl's three super-girlfriends" I'd have to choose Lightning Lad's death and resurrection story as overall more important.

As for the Glorithverse, its a separate timeline, a separate future between 2 or 3 possible timelines in the Post-COIE DC universe. Glorithverse is so far removed from the the original continuity that it's just a possible future from a continuity so heavily retconned that it's tantamount to a reboot, imho. The Legion in Action may be another possible future but it seems so very much closer to the original continuity that cannot be considered a reboot.

Oh! Let me add something. Even though I've been a Legion fan since forever, I do not consider myself an authority and i don't really want to be one. I like it better to always discover new things about my favorite comic book and feel that "sense of wonder" alive in me. That's why I enjoy reading the Trivia topic. You guys really amaze me and I'm stumped at most questions but it's quite fun nonetheless.

[ November 18, 2007, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Superboy's Legion was an elseworlds story that never pretended to be a previous version of the team. So why be upset about it?

The people you are arguing with aren't "Purists." And, I find it patronizing to label people who don't agree with your point of view.

DC has 52 worlds now. Why does everything still have to happen in one narrow-minded universe? Every single Legion story, including the minor inconsistencies mentioned regarding Bates and other writers could exist if the creative people writing for DC weren't so uncreative.

Why shouldn't there be a Supergirl (of Earth-One?) who was a member of the Legion and who died during Crisis? Why is that such a bad thing? Why do we have to ignore that to squeeze Pre-Crisis universe into this Post-Crisis sieve? I don't want them to ignore the Zero Hour Legion either. People are sick of being spoken-down to about how this is the best they can come up with or that this is the closest we can come to having a Pre-Crisis Legion. It isn't.

There's a KC Superman in JSA, why not have an Earth-One Superman be apart of the Legion? What a concept!

And being AR is akin to objecting that Cosmic Boy was wearing his Adventure-Era togs rather than his Giffen-attire in Lightning Saga. That I could see people over-reacting when complaining about. A guy can change clothes.

But wanting everyone to just ignore the past when that's what Johns and everyone is hyping we are regaining in this situation, makes no sense to me. Otherwise, what's the point of having a Legion other than the one that DC is publishing in it's own book appear?

[Dain posted while I was typing this was a response to Kent. And to add that a better analogy is that DC is advertising a 1965 Mustang, but what they are actually selling is a 1965 Camaro with Mustang parts.]

[ November 18, 2007, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
[Dain posted while I was typing this was a response to Kent. And to add that a better analogy is that DC is advertising a 1965 Mustang, but what they are actually selling is a 1965 Camero with Mustang parts.]

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I think you're analogy would work better the other way around. It looks like a 65 Mustang with Camaro parts.

This Legion looks like the Pre-Boot Legion, but some of the workings are different.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
We'll have to wait and see about that. So far the new designs don't look like an organic change from the last time we saw this group. And the characterization hasn't been dead on either.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I see. Thanks, Gary.

So it seems people are reacting negatively to Johns LSH primarily because of how DC is promoting it? I see. I deal with what's printed. To me, worrying about DC "continuity" is like forecasting next October's weather. Since I've been reading Johns on its own merits, I really see no difference, in terms of remodeling Preboot for a new story, whether Johns or S'boy's Legion. As far as I can tell, any new series that is a part of current DC continuity is inherently at odds with all continuities that came before, so no current version (aside from an Elseworlds) ever can recapture the past (a la Dark Detective mini recapturing late 70s Batman). Thus this entire debate seems all the more mind-boggling.

My apologies for the "Purist" remark. I was trying to fight fire with fire, to show how arbitrary Johns-bashers appear to me. It appears my message did not get conveyed as intended.

I completely agree about your multiverse observations. I think that is why we are seeing the Johns Legion. I have no problem with any number of LSH eras having multiple permutations; remember the 60s-stlye Adult Legion from Supermna/Batman? Them, too. But that, to me, does not automatically undervalue the Johns Legion.

I'm not aware of who is advocating ignoring the past. But again, I've been focused on the book, not the hype. I am recalling a decade ago how NBC kept promoing Fraser, as if each episode could be *the* one where Daphne and Niles hook up. It got so bad that the actors themselves had a press conferencve basically saying, "enough. It ain't gonna happen soon. We respect our fans and their intelligence, and hope they watch based on the show's merits" (or words to that effect. So to me, blaming the product rather than the hypers seems misguided (Yes, I am letting Johns himself off the hook here. I am aware he has claimed that he is restoring the Preboot Legion (or words to that effect), and may even see his work in that light. As a creator, I support his endeavors. But he is not the referee of continuity itself, last I checked).

And I disagree about your Camero, but I will concede your point of view has point-of-view validity.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Nightcrawler said

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[Dain posted while I was typing this was a response to Kent. And to add that a better analogy is that DC is advertising a 1965 Mustang, but what they are actually selling is a 1965 Camaro with Mustang parts.

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
And the characterization hasn't been dead on either.

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Which characterization? Shooter's? Giffen's? Levitz's?

Though not as long as other people, I've been reading the Legion for about 35 years now and have seen characterization vary widely between creators.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Characterization in that one minute Superman is upset the Legion comes to his time and doesn't come to him for help and then in Action he doesn't remember who Brainiac 5 or the Legion is.

Brainiac 5 gave Superboy and his cousin temporary protection from the Red Sun in the Great Darkness Saga, yet can't provide that protection (long enough for him to survive for awhile) when he sends Superman to the future? Let alone the established fact that Kryptonians no longer immediately lose their powers in a Red Sun.

I could probably come up with more but just re-reading John's version of the Legion's first meeting with Clark and I certainly don't recognize these people.

People may dismiss the 5 Years Later Legion, but (even the characterizations that I didn't like) seem more in tune with where the characters had been and how they would evolve (in most cases, there are a few exceptions).

Look, I don't hate the Action Legion. I'm looking forward to it. But, I don't see it as the second coming that most people seem to want to see it as.

And besides, based on most of the posts in this thread alone, why do any of you want to see the Pre-Crisis (or any version of it) again? You all seem to want nothing more than to bash it and everyone who wrote/drew it?
 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
They didnt make camaros until 1967 the year I was born.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Well...it does seem like some of us think of this as a "second coming", doesn't it?
I definitely don't want to bash either the Legion in Action or any other version or era.
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Characterization in that one minute Superman is upset the Legion comes to his time and doesn't come to him for help and then in Action he doesn't remember who Brainiac 5 or the Legion is.

Brainiac 5 gave Superboy and his cousin temporary protection from the Red Sun in the Great Darkness Saga, yet can't provide that protection (long enough for him to survive for awhile) when he sends Superman to the future? Let alone the established fact that Kryptonians no longer immediately lose their powers in a Red Sun.

I could probably come up with more but just re-reading John's version of the Legion's first meeting with Clark and I certainly don't recognize these people.

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Look, I don't hate the Action Legion. I'm looking forward to it. But, I don't see it as the second coming that most people seem to want to see it as.

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And besides, based on most of the posts in this thread alone, why do any of you want to see the Pre-Crisis (or any version of it) again? You all seem to want nothing more than to bash it and everyone who wrote/drew it?

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Not me, I'm that rare creature a fan of ALL Legion incarnations.

Please don't spit on me!

Basically I don't understand the complaints when we've seen the examples given so many times before, Not just Post-Crisis, Glorith-verse, Post-Boot or Three-Boot, but in the Pre-Crisis Legion itself.
 

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Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
 
I'm sorry, DC/Geoff Johns, but we cannot admit you into our Original Super-Hero Club! Your low score on the continuity tests we gave you proves your proposal is too imperfect!


Tromium, this means you're Saturn Girl.
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 

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Originally posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire:
They didnt make camaros until 1967 the year I was born.

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Me too! I was born when Ferro Lad died, What about you?
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:

As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.

There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.

That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?

Just one of the many ways things might turn out.
 

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Posted by Wild Cobalt on :
 
I'm with Kent on this one.

But at the end of the day, the first issue of John's Action story was very enjoyable to read IMO. If he keeps up the level of quality that I've come to expect from him, that's all that matters.

I'm not quite sure what else could be done to make someone who doesn't see this as the 'original Legion' actually change their minds. Which is fine. As each year has gone by for every character in comics, things have been tweaked in such a way that the continuity will never be 100% strait anymore. Batman from the 1950's equally Batman today is a long jump for many fans to make too. That's probably more of a good quality for comic books in general than a bad one.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
One other nuance about whether this Legion is 'original' or not:

As I've said, I've already decided that Johns's Legion is not the original Legion, but a new Legion version strongly based on the original. I am reading the stories about them with that assumption, and expect to enjoy them on that level.

There are, of course, people who will be reading these stories who are assuming that Johns's Legion is exactly (+- details) the original Legion. These people may expect an original-Legion-type story. I don't know what's coming, but I think there's a significant chance that whatever story is coming is not going to be an original-Legion-type story. And if so, there's a nonzero chance that these fans aren't going to like it.

That'd be a kick in the pants, wouldn't it? The guy who insists that this isn't the original Legion ends up liking them better than the people who insist that it is?

Just one of the many ways things might turn out.

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How original does "original" have to be?

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Originally posted by Malvolio:
"And if I was in charge of bringing 'em back, you'd best believe I'd be able to do it without contradicting a blessed thing. And it'd be easy. Just have the characters say, "Huh. 'End of an Era' happened. That was weird, wasn't it? Moving on...")"

Well, then you had better be prepared to do about 50 years worth of research to make sure you get EVERY LAST THING right to make sure you don't contradict anything.

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Originally posted by Paul Newell:

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
A lot of people seem to want to believe that this is the "original" Pre-Crisis Legion despite Matthew's wonderful evidence to the contrary above.

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As I said above, no-one thought the differences between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis history didn't make the Legion appearing V3, after the Crisis, the originals.

So why do the changes now, as compared to the changes then, cause people to doubt their "authenticity"?

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Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
Mon-El, even though that image did make it into Countdown, the stories themsleves state that none of the League/Society members know who a Legion is and thus contridicts it being apart of "New Earth" history. And Karate Kid has given no indication that this is his second trip to the present.

So, either it's crappy writing or crappy editing. Take your pick.

And I (personally) don't see anything mentioned above as "anal retentive continity." I see it as a history of a team which Johns and TPTB are claiming are now apart of the Legion that is appearing in Action Comics when their "good stories" are proving that it is not.

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Heh, I agree with you. It's the same with Crisis. They think they covered all their bases and then..."oh, yeah...that".

Since Supes had a foggy memory maybe the Legion sent Cham back on a Espionage mission to the 20th century to erase various memories.
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 

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Originally posted by Dain:
Well...it does seem like some of us think of this as a "second coming", doesn't it?
I definitely don't want to bash either the Legion in Action or any other version or era.

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I don't see it as the second coming. BUT so far it appears it's a Legion I will be more interested in and hopefully enjoy than any other legion work in the last 15 years?

It's a Legion I like. It has elements of a Legion I want. Is it the "original"? No. Do I apologize for liking it? No. And just because I have a different opinion I won't apologize. Is it nostalgic? I guess but I see more in it than just nostalgia.

I mean the current Legion is nostalgic of the Adventure Legion? Or ZH Legion?


btw, for those that are excited about this Legion...the next issue comes out this week right?!
 

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Posted by Kid Prime on :
 
This entire debate reminds me of Neil Gaiman's wonderful passage in the Sandman issue "The Hunt" when the granddaughter takes her grandfather to task for continuity errors in the bedtime story he is telling her. And then he comes back with this: "Don't trust the storyteller. Only trust the story." (Of course, the next time she interrupts him, he says "Listen, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. I love you but if you interrupt me again so help me I'll tear out your throat with my teeth." And she meekly says "Sorry, Grandpa." I love Sandman.)

The point is that continuity for DC comics exists to be broken. If it serves the story, great. If not, then feggedaboudit. And we know this. We live in a DCU where the heroes have forgotten completely about the Zero Hour Legion assisting in The Final Night. Even though The Final Night totally happened, because Parallax gave his life to save Earth and then he became the Spectre and then in "Emerald Rebirth" or what-the-frak-ever the title was became Hal Jordan, Green Lantern Stud again. And this all happened, because didn't Geoff Johns write it? It must be true!!! I mean, isn't that... what happened??

Where the Flash family have completely forgotten that an XS ever existed. Where Superman's Time and Time Again storyline obviously never happened.

I know, I know... Infinite Crisis restarted everything again and all the continuities were fixed, Superboy-Prime's behind bars, the 52 worlds are all out there and if there's a continuity you can dream about, just wish for it and it's on one of those 52 worlds. Blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah.

Let's look back through time. This is a DCU where, upon (the first) Crisis ending, Wonder Woman was reset. She was never an original member of the JLA. She came to man's world for the very first time post-Crisis. Except for the fact that Donna Troy was a member of the Teen Titans for years before these events, and made constant mention to WW and Hippolyta and Hera and whatnot.

Kara Zor-El had a funeral in the middle of Crisis on Infinite Earths and EVERYBODY was there and EVERYBODY remembered it and EVERYBODY cried and was very sad. Except nobody remembered it when Matrix came to Earth and took on Supergirl's form and then merged with Linda Danvers and then became an earth-bound angel and then Kara Zor-El came to earth for the FIRST time, except for the fact that she didn't, because there was a funeral, and at the end of Crisis, Superman mourned Kara, and it totally happened, because Harbinger recorded it all (complete with pretty George Perez pics) and Harbinger showed up as a major player in Millenium a couple years later. And if you can't trust Harbinger, who can you trust?

Of course, Zero Hour fixed all of this. Except it didn't, because Superboy-Prime, Superman-1, Alexander Luthor, and Lois Lane-1 were all hanging out in the wings. It's like a continuity poker game. "I'll see your Zero Hour and raise it one Earth-1 Power Girl! Dang it, I can't beat that hand." Zero Hour folds. Power Girl singlehandedly defeats the Zero Hour Legion for all time without even raising a finger. (It's true, if you think about it.)

And now the 52 universes come along with the promise to make it all somehow better. "If you can dream it, it's there!" Ooh, sparkly! Except for the fact that it's all smoke and mirrors, people. The DC universe exists in a completely delirious state of unreality.

There are all these trappings of Crisis(es) and Superboy-Primes and Khufus and Earth-1s and Power Girls and Psycho-Pirates and Infinite Earths that give fans stuff to chew on, but it is all complete and total illusion, no more substantial than one of Projectra's illusions. Oh, um, sorry... Lighting Saga Sensor Girl's illusions.

In future posts, I will endeavor to explain why this state of affairs is actually okay, though, and why this entire debate is, while diverting, ultimately no more substantial than the, um, "continuity" which is at its core. And finally, why the LSH is a special problem for the DCU as it exists and what sort of solution set may be applicable.

My apologies for the run-on sentences. I was trying to comment on the laughable state of DC's "continuity" with some laughable grammar.

Kid Prime's DC Point #1. Nothing really exists in the DCU.

[ November 19, 2007, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Kid Prime ]
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I think on an intellectual level, you can always find some elements that will spoil your fun. For me, the return of the "kind of classic" Legion is an emotional matter: To see these characters interact in the current DCU after 14 years of "other" Legions I could not get that fond of is a true delight.

To see the new cover of Action #862 with the Subs gives me a huge thrill. And every inconsistency to the classic Legion - even the strange missing of Chemical King himself - I can blame on Crisis, Zero Hour or whatever continuity bashing there was.

So I love it on an emotional level and just explain the problems away. Not a scientific approach, but I can totally enjoy the story that way.

By the way: The way of storytelling changes over the ages. Hardly anybody would like to read Adventure type stories nowadays, Bates or especially Conway would be attacked for their simplistic writing. So what we should expect is a Levitz-style writing with a modern twist (and changes to the original continuity will be added if only to add some spice to it all - like it or not...)

I think Johns can do it - he did great on the JSA already...
 

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Posted by Eryk Davis Ester on :
 
To be completely honest, my cynicism regarding the Johns Legion probably has as much to do with jadedness over the whole post-IC/post-52/post-whatever DCU as anything else.

Part of the appeal of the Legion for me in most versions has always been its relative isolation from the rest of the DCU. So even though I could've cared less about the rest of the post-Zero Hour DCU, I could still read and enjoy the post-Zero Hour Legion because their storyline was pretty much independent (and it's probably no coincidence that I stopped reading them during the whole "Team 20" arc).

What Johns has given us is a Legion that's very much integrated into the whole "Crisis on Every Other Tuesday" state of affairs in the mainstream DCU. Honestly, I have very little interest in the Legion as explorers of the current multiverse, where Star Boy hung out in the Kingdom Come universe for awhile before coming to New Earth and joining the New Earth JSA*, so on and so forth. For people who like the more "integrated universe" approach to comics generally, this is probably going to bother them much less.

Generally, I don't have nearly as much faith in Johns as many of you seem to. He and Waid seem to come from very much the same school of writing (and one that I don't particularly care for), which is why it seems a bit strange that so many people seem to want to pit them against one another. Honestly, I was pretty surprised that so many people who have been critical of Waid's run on the Legion seemed to embrace the Lightning Saga storyline, when it seemed to suffer from many of the same flaws that have made the threeboot seem so lackluster for so long.

*Nota bene: I could care less about the JSA as a training camp for New Earth legacy heroes or whatever as well. The JSA belongs on Earth-2 and closely tied to WW2, dammit!
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eryk Davis Ester:
Part of the appeal of the Legion for me in most versions has always been its relative isolation from the rest of the DCU.

---

quote:

---

Honestly, I was pretty surprised that so many people who have been critical of Waid's run on the Legion seemed to embrace the Lightning Saga storyline, when it seemed to suffer from many of the same flaws that have made the threeboot seem so lackluster for so long.

---

quote:

---

*Nota bene: I could care less about the JSA as a training camp for New Earth legacy heroes or whatever as well. The JSA belongs on Earth-2 and closely tied to WW2, dammit!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:

[QUOTE][qb]In contrast, while Lightning Saga in JLA/JSA did not pay off as we'd have liked, we have seen greater moments than Threeboot has offered.

---

Name one.

---

"You were kids."
"No. We were Legion." two panels or so beat more than two years. TKO.

---

You're right. That was a great moment*.

For Superman.

* As was, "They were my friends." (Also Superman.)
 

---

Posted by Kid Prime on :
 
I ended the last post with "Kid Prime's DC point #1: Nothing exists in the DCU." I now realize that I was in error. There are two things that will always exist in the DCU as long as there is a DCU. (Possibly three.)

Jor-El sends his only son to Earth to escape a dying planet Krypton.

Bruce Wayne witnesses the brutal murder of his parents at age 8 in a dark alley.

(There is the possibility that Wonder Woman leaving Paradise Island could be considered a third ineffable item in the DCU makeup, but we'll leave that alone, as it really has no bearing on this conversation.)

I posit that the "realness" of anything else in the DCU is in direct relation to its amount of distance from either of these two events.

There will always be a Joker. There will always be a Lex Luthor. Even as they change over the years (Joker goes from being the Clown Prince of Crime to a truly murderous and insane criminal, Lex Luthor goes from being an evil scientist to being a corporate magnate) their essence and their reality, as opposed to the relative insubstantiability of, say, Sovereign Seven or Amethyst, remains intact throughout the years. I do admit that the relative weakness of Superman's rogues gallery as compared to Batman's villains somewhat weakens my position, but the very fact that Toyman is still around after 50 years does say something.

Anyway, now to my point. Superman (or Superboy) gives the Legion of Super Heroes stronger DC Universe reality. He does not give them meaning or necessarily even give them worth as far as good storytelling or emotional impact, but as far as their viability within the DCU over the years, it is their close orbit around one of the DCU's twin points of true reality which gives them life.

And why not? One of the most compelling things about the Legion is the fact that it was Superman's time with them in his younger days which truly helped to forge himself into the hero he would become. It is a truly powerful mythology, and it gives the Legion a huge part of their grandeur. To think that today, Superman is unparalleled as a hero, but 1000 years in the future, he was only a single member of a club whose members each in their own way were every bit as heroic as he... that's a POWERFUL legend there, and that is a large part of what the Legion is about.

However one feels about Johns's ability as a writer (or hack,) re-linking Superman with the Legion of Super Heroes in the way that he has done ("We were Legion.") is quite possibly the strongest thing that has been done with the group and the strongest Legion-related moment yet in this new century. So Matthew, I have to respectfully disagree with you. That moment with Superman was big for him, but it was absolutely huge for the Legion as well. Not because the Legion needs Superman for great storytelling or to be a great team, but insofar as their level of "DCU reality," the closer they are to Superman, the more real they are.

Now this creates a paradox in that I do believe the LSH is and should be completely or mostly separate from the DCU other than their relationship to its number one icon, but that's a good topic for another time.

Kid Prime's DC point #2: The closer to Batman or Superman you are, the more real you are. This means Lightning Saga -> renewing ties between Superman and LSH = good thing. This also means (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view) that the Lightning Saga is more "real" than the Threeboot Legion simply by virtue of its orbit around Supes.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
That's some really good thinking right there. Nicely done.

I still say, though: it may have been a great moment for the Legion, but it couldn't have been a great Legion moment, because the Legion wasn't there.

After all, just because it's DC's standard that reality emanates from Superman and Batman, that doesn't mean that Legion fans have to be primarily fans of Superman. If you get what I'm trying to say.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
KP, thank you for bringing a fresh level of clarity to the table.

Matthew, I am not going to argue at length the semantics over the "We were Legion" moment, but I obviously agree with KP. And the Legion was there in flashback, as I recall -- and it was a comic book - no one was there, and there was no "there" there. Lines on a page to which we interpret meaning.

EDE, I'm not familiar enough with Johns' other works to rank him in the overall scheme of things, but in certain ways your Waid comparison seems fair.

I gave Waid a chance, based upon previous projects I liked (KC, 90s Flash, off the top of my head), and based upon Barry's assurances here on LW. I truly hoped that a well thought out, well written, well drawn Threeboot would be a success and reinvigorate LSH and fandom. Of the above, only Kitson's art was consistently good. I am aprpreciating the fill-in run, and I hope to enjoy the Shooter run.

I did not knock Waid for the sake of knocking; I expressed disappointment based on his track record as it became apparent the post-#3 slump was becoming the norm.

I do not believe Johns is the perfect writer, nor have I been 100 percent thrilled with everything he's done that I've read. I am simply not rushing to judgement, just as I did not with Waid. The less than satisfying ending to L-Saga was a strike against him, but he has shown more than enough likeable aspects to continue to give the benefit of the doubt.
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
I'm sorry, DC/Geoff Johns, but we cannot admit you into our Original Super-Hero Club! Your low score on the continuity tests we gave you proves your proposal is too imperfect!


Tromium, this means you're Saturn Girl.

---

Heaven forefend! These days, more like Monstress with PMS.
 

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Posted by Mon-el on :
 
Forgive me if this has been posted before, I found 5 preview images of Action #859 courtesy of vdox2 over at CBR,(apparently he found them over at a Italian messageboard.)

http://comicus.forumfree.org/index.php?&showtopic=44351&st=0&#entry1427408
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Thanks Mon-El!

Spider Girl is from Earth. I'll have to dig out my Who's Who.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
She was from Taltar originally, if that's what you were going to look up.
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Thanks Mon-El. Those pages are very exciting.

Spider-Girl received her powers from Taltar but is she from there? I guess not?
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
The Action #859 pages are up on Newsarama as well, and there's one more page (the last one is a 2 page spread, and the prior website link only showed the first 1/2).

So this Justice League is all from Earth, and they are out to get all alien heroes (presumably even Earth heroes who harbor/associate with non-Earth heroes, like Wildfire or Colossal Boy).
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
And according to Chaim's Legion Help file, Sussa is from Earth, so she must have received her powers while on Taltar.
 

---

Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
And 'Earth-Man', Kirt Niedrigh, who appears to be the leader of the Justice League used to go by another name preboot:

Click Here For A SpoilerAbsorbancy Boy
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
If I remember correctly, Sussa Paka was from Earth and transported to Taltar where she got her powers.
(Edit: Ah. I didn't see others had already replied about Sussa's origins as I was writing this).
------

Matthew made a good point a couple of pages ago: I
*would* be disappointed if the "new" Legion was heavy with gorey images. There seems to be a lot of it lately in DC comics and that's one "modernization" I could do without.

---------

Imho, they are not trying to make the Legion, not yet at least, a part of the "main" DCU. Let's not forget that they've only appeared as guests in other titles and it's not like they never visited the 20th century before. The Legion has been there in most *big* Crossover series since the Crisis. I think they are trying to reintegrate the adult Legion in the DCU by emphasizing their link to Superman. Their very existence is intertwined to Supes. It's more like "getting back to basics".

----------------

"Second coming" was a joke, of course, but in a way it IS a coming back of a "dead", for all intents and purposes, adult Legion and continuity.

------------------

Let me remind you guys that there are a lot of us who simply don't accept any "my Legion against your Legion" mentality and like all of them on their own merits. Having a personal "focus" on one Legion version does not preclude our liking all of them, not does criticism of one Legion era/version necessarily stem from a "my/your" mentality. Not everything was great about the classic Legion (there have been terrible stories and art), nor everything is great in the WaK or 5YL or Reboot Legion. I feel we are not sports team fans, we all love ONE team, and any dichotomy is silly and immaturely fanboyish, in my opinion. (I've seen very little of it, if at all, in this forum. Thank Rao!)
-------------------

Having said that, my reaction to those pages in the link Mon-El posted was one of amazement! They look GOOOOOOD! (OK, Saturn Girl doesn't look like she jumped off the cover of this month's French ELLE magazine exactly, but the Legionnaires are fugitives, hunted, hated, tired). And yet they look GOOD!

[ November 20, 2007, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by superboymddjr on :
 
go to:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov07/previews/21st.html

but WARNING --- Spoilers MAJOR --- they revealed who the Legion Rejects are - a couple of them will make the fans happy - HINT: G_ _ _ _ _ B _ _

Enjoy!
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
I combined your post here rather than a separate thread, sbmddjr.
 

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Posted by superboymddjr on :
 
allright no problem. thanks.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I can support EDE on his statement that the Legion should be on its own plane somehow. Though their taking part in the original Crisis and Legends was great, since then most crossovers just tended to be storytechnically challenged and provided tons of continuity problems. Millenium, Final Night, you name it.

The worst ever effort was the year long (or even longer???) stay of half of the team in the Reboot. That sucked hard, and like EDE I quit back then. I guess that was the moment the slow death of the Reboot started, which only the excitement of DnAs stories could postpone for some time.

But as for reintroducing the "classic but not all original" Legion into the DCU, there's probably no better way than to give th readers some hints here and there, probing the field, making the fans want more - and the "not yet fans" interested in those rather iconic looking characters.

I believe that a new Legion book with these characters would sell better now that they have been already reintroduced than it would if it came out iof the blue. The fans' attendance is already much higher, the hype bigger. So I guess DC did right thus far on that matter, but I do sincerely believe that should they get their own book, the old/new Legionnaires should return to their secluded 30th century.
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Just read the new issue of Action. It's a good one. The one thing I'm wondering about, though, is Tusker. What's the lowdown on Tusker? What did he do in his previous appearances? I have a reason for asking, which I will not be the first one to mention in this thread.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
The only Tusker I recall off the top of my head was in Reboot, I believe, during Team 30's membership drive... or am I misremembering? I haven't read those issues in several years now.
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 

quote:

---

Tusker tried out for the Legion of Super-Heroes, unaware that the team had been taken over by the villain Dynamo Boy, who rejected Tusker and mocked him. Tusker swore vengeance on the Legion, and joined up with Eyeful Ethel, another Legion reject, and together they were determined to become suervillains. Tusker and Ethel couldn't find any villains who wanted to associate with them.

Tusker and Ethel met Ron-Karr of the Legion of Super-Villains, who, tired of the annoying duo, told them they could join if they destroyed Bismoll's computer network. Tusker and Ethel succeeded, but still didn't get their membership cards.

Tusker gave up his aspirations of evil and took a job at an insta-food emporium.

---

Taken from here
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Is Tusker a natural enemy for Matter Eater Lad or what?!
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Thanks. Hmm. I wonder if we're going to get backstory on him in Action.
 

---

Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Thanks, Jorge.

See? Memory does not always work.
 

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Posted by Zero Kahn on :
 
Man I really hated seeing one of my favorite members in the Justice Leagues "trophy case". I was really hoping to see the big guy play a bigger part in this story. Another really great issue. Seeing the founders in action together is always great, and I think Johns really nailed all three really well. His Lightning Lad I thought was really spot on as far as his personality goes.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
To refresh everyone's memory on who the Justice League of Earth are -

First, Storm Boy:


Radiation Roy:


Spider Girl:


Golden Boy:


Tusker:


I'll post Absorb...er...Earth-Man later.
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
Sigh. Animal Lad-- did he get a raw deal, or what?

Hmmm. If Tusker and Golden Boy are getting used, I wonder if A.L. might merit an appearance in the ACTION storyline?
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Very nice, Nightcrawler. Maybe you could also add Click Here For A Spoiler The teacher. Her last name is Niwtyn. She's probably Eye-ful Ethel
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
Back with Absorbancy Boy -







And just for fun, Rainbow Girl:

 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
I did notice the name but was confused as to why she didn't look like Eyeful Ethel -


 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
A couple of pages from this issue itself -






 

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Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
Heres a list of Legion characters that are from Earth.

Legionnaires:
Bouncing Boy
Colossal Boy
Ferro Lad
Invisible Kid I
Invisible Kid II
Karate Kid I
Tyroc
Wildfire

Allies and Enemies:
Absorbancy Boy :Rejected
Animal Lad :Rejected
Antonio Stefanacci
Ben Pares
Black Mace
Caress
Crystal Kid
Dagon the Avenger
Dawn Allen
Don Allen
Doctor Regulus
Douglas Nolan
Elastic Lad
Eyeful Ethel :Rejected
Fenton Pike
Flynt Brojj
Golden Boy :Rejected
Grimbor
Holdur
Infinite Man
Insect Queen :Rejected
Lamprey
Laurel Kent
Leland McCauley
Mantis Marlo
Marla Latham
Marte Allon
The Mess
Nightwind
Oli 3 Queen
Persuader
Pete Ross
Polecat :Rejected
Porcupine Pete :Rejected
Power Boy :Rejected
Quake Kid :Rejected
Quicksand
Radiation Roy :Rejected
Sensi
Spider Girl :Rejected
Starfinger I
Storm Boy :Rejected
Sun Emperor
Tarik the Mute
Tusker :Rejected
Visi-Lad ?
Weight Wizard
Westerner

Others Rejects: not sure of their place of origin
Alaktor
Camera Eye
Green Boy
Jungle King
Lester Spiffany
Rann Antar
 

---

Posted by Dain on :
 
Nightcrawler said

quote:

---

I did notice the name but was confused as to why she didn't look like Eyeful Ethel -

---

Yeah, it is strange. She does seem to have certain creases on her forehead but it may be just a frown. Cosmetic surgery perhaps so she'll look as a regular human?

I'm glad I got 3 issues of 858. One to read till it crumbles in my hands, one to save in my collection and one to give to any "worthy" friend who may be interested in the Legion.

The art is even better in #859 and I almost felt weepy reading it. There was such a sudden surge of emotion that almost got me worried. I mean, it's just a comic book but it can still make me feel enthusiastic and happy as it did in the old days. And it wasn't just nostalgia. It wasn't nostalgia, period. It was a "now" thing and every page was like a rediscovery of something familiar, yet strangely innovated, updated and certainly very beautiful regardless of the dark story.

[ November 22, 2007, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

---

Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Don't forget that Cosmic Boy was born on Earth. I wonder if that's going to be a plot point.
 

---

Posted by Lone Wolf Legionnaire on :
 
Yes I forgot all about Rokk being born on earth.
 

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Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
 
I'm still optimistic about this story and this team. (I'm optimistic about the other one too; it's just harder to get over the bitter feelings I have about Mr. Waid's run.)

I hope there's a reveal of another big bad guy, because Rejects wanting the spotlight doesn't really lead naturally to a societal xenophobic wave. Maybe the red sun is having some effect on folks, reminding me of Universo's past schemes. But, then, alien holding camp 6736 has shades of Nardo about it. And Legionnaires in transparent stasis tubes conjures thoughts of Mordru.

Prime highlights for me were the interaction of Imra, Garth, & Rokk; Gim and Dawnstar having a moment; and the reveal of more legionnaires. Tinya looks pretty good with short hair.

So, who is the legionnaire in the holding camp? Someone without a homeworld to return to, but with a tie that keeps him obligated to abiding terrestrial law (Element Lad)? Someone who's been hinted at as being underground (Ayla)? Someone with a history of leading the down-and-out (Polar Boy)?

Next month's issue can't come fast enough.
 

---

Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Awkward, that's a good idea. Is there someone else behind this? The Rejects are...rejects after all.

In the LS JLA/JSA they showed Degaton, Despero and the Ultra Humanite but I think I read somewhere that is an untold story affecting the JLA.


Re: Costumes above. Argh! My eyes! Some of my all time favorites BUT Ultra Boy & Vi look horrible! Jo has that silly long hair again. Blok on the other hand looks great as does Tinya. Jacques? Hmm, interesting. Don't love but I don't hate it either.

I am going to have send DC some of my Ultra Boy and Shrinking Violet micro heroes to give them costume ideas!
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
One reason I like this storyline?

Let's face it the founders are suburban American high school kids from the 1950s. Leave it to Beaver from space.

I understand it's the future and the Legion universe is a parallel to our own. And I'm fine with that.

But even today you see lots of countries fighting that. I use Europe as an example. The EU sounds all hunky dory to me but some europeans don't like it for various reasons. Even on a smaller scale in Spain you have many regions fighting to become their own country.

I would like to see that friction in the UP. Sure the founders look like their from Earth but let's see those subtle differences of their culture, etc.

Earth for the most part appears united in the future but the UP should be like the UN. I'm not saying let's make Winathian culture extremely different and alien now...but let us see those slight differences.
 

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Posted by rtvu2 on :
 
I think the big bad will Click Here For A Spoiler be the original Brainiac. Also, Brainy will find a way to turn the sun back to yellow somehow so Kal can come back in to the future more often....

How does that sound?
 

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Posted by Paul Newell on :
 
I think the big bad will Click Here For A Spoiler be Lester Spiffany! Seriously all the clues are there. An incrdibly rich Earthman wanting revenge at the Legion for his humiliation!

How does that sound? [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
If that turns out to be true, Paul, then this board will erupt into complete mayhem!
 

---

Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
Does there have to be an established big bad? I agree, I tend to think there must be some force beyond the rejects behind things, but what if there's not?

Could Earth-Man (or whoever) be accepted as a *new* bad guy on the way to becoming 'big bad'?

There's been even fewer memorable new villains than there've been new first-rank heroes in the past few years. They have to get their start *somewhere*, don't they?
 

---

Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 

 

---

Posted by Malvolio on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wild Jorge:
One reason I like this storyline?

Let's face it the founders are suburban American high school kids from the 1950s. Leave it to Beaver from space.

I understand it's the future and the Legion universe is a parallel to our own. And I'm fine with that.

But even today you see lots of countries fighting that. I use Europe as an example. The EU sounds all hunky dory to me but some europeans don't like it for various reasons. Even on a smaller scale in Spain you have many regions fighting to become their own country.

I would like to see that friction in the UP. Sure the founders look like their from Earth but let's see those subtle differences of their culture, etc.

Earth for the most part appears united in the future but the UP should be like the UN. I'm not saying let's make Winathian culture extremely different and alien now...but let us see those slight differences.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
The art is even better in #859 and I almost felt weepy reading it. There was such a sudden surge of emotion that almost got me worried. I mean, it's just a comic book but it can still make me feel enthusiastic and happy as it did in the old days. And it wasn't just nostalgia. It wasn't nostalgia, period. It was a "now" thing and every page was like a rediscovery of something familiar, yet strangely innovated, updated and certainly very beautiful regardless of the dark story. [/QB]

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You said it, Dain. It's the first time I've been excited about the LSH since...probably since Monstress joined. I felt a shiver at the mention of Yera's name.

I agree that a couple of the costumes are rather ugly--I like Jo's hair, but Frank seems to be really into the Right to Bare Arms.
I do like Garth's tattoo...
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
So did I in almost every page. Yera, the Legionnaires in those boxes and the old Clubhouse with an updated, yet recognizable look and Garth, Imra and Rokk's "portraits", especially Garth's screamed of "this is IT". No, I don't mean "original" or anything. That was not the point.
The point was/is this story is about a redefinition of the Legion's values and spirit. The plot and dialogue show what this arc's point is. It's more than shared history or common backstory with the classic Legion. It's about who Superman is, what the Legion stands for, who they are, why they are, and the legacy they share with Superman. Spirit and values. That's the basis of Superman AND the Legion.
It IS a dark story with a Legion on the run, but what better way to redefine the basis of an entire imaginary universe than showing how those values expressed through the personalities of the Legion and Superman (a powerless Superman yet) stand in the face of extreme adversity? That's why I, for one, am not bothered at all by the darker elements and don't believe it's got something to do with 5YL other than a few superficial similarities.
 

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Posted by Semi Transparent Fellow on :
 
I don't really feel like I belong in this discussion, because I don't have a real good memory of the Adventure years, although that's the Legion I grew up on. However, three weeks ago, I picked up the last two issues of Supergirl and the Legion of Super Heroes and the first issue of the Legion in Action. I've read every issue of the Legion of Super Heroes faithfully until the last two issues. So I started with Action and was enthralled. I then picked up the LSH issues and tried to read them. I set them aside for later, when I could better "concentrate." What did that tell me? The Action Legion is my Legion. The other one is right now of minimal interest. No offense to Denis Calero, but the art does not draw me in for Legion. It might for a different type of book. However the Action story has me hooked.

So today I braved Northern California holiday traffic to get the latest Action. It was worth every horn-honkin' moment of stalled traffic on I80 for the 45 minutes it took me to go 10 miles to the next town. This is my Legion. I don't care if there are some mess-ups in continuity. The spirit is there. Somebody has really been listening.

Now I hope DC continues to listen. My theory is that they are testing out 2 Legions to see which one, from a business point of view, makes sense to continue. If that's true, I hope it's my Legion, the Action one.

[ November 24, 2007, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Semi Transparent Fellow ]
 

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Posted by Element Lad on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Semi Transparent Fellow:
I don't really feel like I belong in this discussion, because I don't have a real good memory of the Adventure years, although that's the Legion I grew up on.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Semi Transparent Fellow:
Somebody has really been listening.

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No. No, I'm not.
 

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Posted by Wild Jorge on :
 
Ok, I got it today! I loved it. Sure I don't love everything but the story is so powerful? dramatic? It just wins me over.

In a way I think it's far fetched that this Earth-Man movement actually convinced all of Earth that Krypton never existed and Superman was from Smallville originally. Nice to see the Legion still operating off earth as well as the UP.

Big bad? Is Universo originally from Earth?

The Justice League? It's fun. I recently read all the old Adventure issues where these guys got rejected (except Absorbancy Boy/Earth Man). I became a fan of Spider-Girl in v4 so I hope she IS under a spell. Same with Golden Boy. B

I think the founders should've wiped the floor with them.

Back to Superman and three of my faves! Gim mentions Yera! #305 was my first issue ever so that warmed my heart.

Gary Frank just took the prize from Dennis Calero for drawing freaky kids. I mean the panel with "Long Live Humans" may be the scariest thing I've ever seen in a comic.

And ofcourse the page Gary already posted with Invisible Kid II, Phantom Girl, Ultra Boy, Violet and Blok! BLOK!!!

Blok has never looked better. The rest?! Ugh! Phantom Girl and Invisible Kid I don't mind. Ultra Boy and Violet? Maybe the worse costumes I've ever seen them in. Same goes for Cosmic Boy.

I am really enjoying the art! But the freaky eyes and some of the costumes I am not.

I am nitpicking. I love this issue.

Some v4 ties? The unpopular Legion and the red sun just remind me of Black Dawn.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wild Jorge: I think the founders should've wiped the floor with them.

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quote:

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Back to Superman and three of my faves! Gim mentions Yera! #305 was my first issue ever so that warmed my heart.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:

Nardo certainly does come to mind, but I'd see him as the guy running the prison under some more powerful authority. Maybe McCauley is president of Earth again.

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Good theory and I was thinking of one villain that no villan have ever done in many times - turning the planet against the super team - as he did to the Legion at least three times - he stands as the vilest villain ever in the Legion history: UNIVERSO!!! That's my theory - he may found a way to hypnotize the Rejects and make the sun go red. Who else can do that? Maybe a combo of him, Leland McCauley (or Ra's Al Ghul), and Brainiac? Hmmm...I will wait and see to see if my theory is wrong or not.
 

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Posted by The Man From Cargg on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by superboymddjr:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fat Cramer:

Nardo certainly does come to mind, but I'd see him as the guy running the prison under some more powerful authority. Maybe McCauley is president of Earth again.

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Good theory and I was thinking of one villain that no villan have ever done in many times - turning the planet against the super team - as he did to the Legion at least three times - he stands as the vilest villain ever in the Legion history: UNIVERSO!!! That's my theory - he may found a way to hypnotize the Rejects and make the sun go red. Who else can do that? Maybe a combo of him, Leland McCauley (or Ra's Al Ghul), and Brainiac? Hmmm...I will wait and see to see if my theory is wrong or not.

---

I think it's Universo too... he ran a work camp once just like Nardo... remember when he kidnapped all of the "strong-willed" legionnaires including Nura. Maybe she's in the camp. Fingers crossed.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Universo does seem to be the obvious threat, based on his past attempts at world domination, and it would fit his M.O. quite well.

Is it just me, or is anyone else feeling a bit like the Earth just went "Nazi"? With their efforts to purify Earth (humans only, and substituting aliens for Jews). Also the black armbands the Rejects are wearing with the red Superman logo...a bit reminiscent of a Nazi Swastika (at least with the color scheme)! It's like they turned Kal into a 30th Century Hitler!!!

On the whole, there's a real mixture of all preboot Legion at once here. You have the team based on the 70's & 80s timeframe (based on their uniforms and historic references, etc.), but heavily pulling from the Adventure era of the 60s (all the Rejects except for Absorbancy Boy, who was 70s), the "Legion Underground" aspect of the Universo story where the Earth turned against the Legion. Part of the team on the run hid out in the Batcave back then. You've also got the alien prison camp (a la Nardo). And touching on the Hitler/Nazi comparison from earlier, Superboy and Hitler actually swapped minds briefly back in Adventure #314!!!! <insert Twilight Zone sound effect here> Coincidence?? Maybe not!

I've really got to give props to Johns for this generations-spanning tale!! Way to draw from the LSH's rich history, Geoff!! I can't wait for the next issue!!!!!!!

Oh, and having Eyeful Ethyl as a teacher is hilarious!!! What other profession requires eyes in the back of your head?
 

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Posted by Gorilla Nebula on :
 
i find the art to be mostly awesome. i agree with the bug-eye criticisms, but other than that... the storytelling is great, the anatomy is excellent and realistic. i hate some of the costumes, but i love Spider Girl's!!! even with the grey (???) hair. did they want her to not look like a Medusa clone?
it's interesting that the Lightning saga legionnaires all had Cockrum retro costumes but here in the sequel, editorial had Gary Frank give everyone new uniforms. maybe Waid got bitchy that everyone was pining for the "old" legion over his re-imagining.
i'm enjoying the story very much. Johns has really done his homework.
who'da thunk we'd ever see Absorbancy Boy again? i'd love to see some Infectious Lass action.
what does ANY of this have to do with what the Lightning Saga Legion was up to?
hopefully there will be a satisfying ending rather than yet more unresolved questions.
 

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Posted by superboymddjr on :
 
no not Infectious Lass as baddie! She is quite a cool character to be seen again, most preferably with Team 13!!!! I want to see her and Team 13 sometime soon! ah....loved that book! Got a new softcover book solely on Team 13 adventure.

sorry for being off from the point.

Back to the point: yeah I was surprised to see Ab Boy as Space Man - I recognized the name and I asked Absorbancy Boy!?!?! Did not say "Space Man" ehe.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
I had a whole long post that got lost ( ) so I'm just going to give the basics -

* liking the art.

* loving the story.

* making love to the costumes. Seriously, I can't believe some people are criticising them. With the exception of too skinny Wildfire, Shrinking Violet and the colour of Invisible Kid's pants I can't find a thing wrong with any of them. Colossal Boy, Lightning Lad, Dawnstar and Blok look especially good and Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy aren't far behind. And God but don't the Kitson designs look even more boring in comparison to these ones.

Anyway, the story isn't perfect so far - it's been two issues of set-up IMO - but even if it were a 5 ou of 10 story that would still make it 100% more enjoyable than anything in that "other" Legion book every month.

Bring on the Final Crisis so that the Waid/Kitson debacle can take it's long overdue dirt nap and we can have a Legion that actually reads like the Legion again!
 

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Posted by Colossal Boy on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gorilla Nebula:
it's interesting that the Lightning saga legionnaires all had Cockrum retro costumes but here in the sequel, editorial had Gary Frank give everyone new uniforms.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Blacula:


* making love to the costumes. Seriously, I can't believe some people are criticising them. With the exception of too skinny Wildfire, Shrinking Violet and the colour of Invisible Kid's pants I can't find a thing wrong with any of them. Colossal Boy, Lightning Lad, Dawnstar and Blok look especially good and Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy aren't far behind.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Future:
I was one of those people who never got to truly enjoy the Lightning Saga because I was too busy racking my brain trying to figure where it all went in continuity.

I've managed to accept I'll forever be clueless even when they tell me which point in time it is and have moved on to give it a proper shot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Future:
I only know a few non-Legion readers but they've told me they're finding the redesigns to be sudden and even though it may be obvious with Dawny or Drake, they're still clarifying with me if that's so-and-so or so-and-so. They don't know how we can remember all this!

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That would be thirty years of reading these characters .

On the costume subject, I quite like the new ones. For me, it was an indication that in the 31st century time has moved on from the Lightning Saga, maybe several years.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kcekada:

quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:


* making love to the costumes. Seriously, I can't believe some people are criticising them. With the exception of too skinny Wildfire, Shrinking Violet and the colour of Invisible Kid's pants I can't find a thing wrong with any of them. Colossal Boy, Lightning Lad, Dawnstar and Blok look especially good and Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy aren't far behind.

---

For the most part, they are really just unnecessary redesigns. I think it would have been more practical to retain the costumes they used in the Lightning Saga. I do, however, understand an artist wanting to design new costumes.

I think he would have done better to tweak them, but he went to far with most -- especially the effeminate costumes he gave Ultra Boy, Lightning Lad and Invisible Kid.

They aren't all bad, but the ones that are overshadow the good ones. Many of these are just mediocre (Colossal Boy, Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy) - again if you can't improve a design, then let it be. Change for changes sake never impressed me.

---

I guess it's 'to each his own' on this one.

Personally, I feel like the Cockrum/Grell costumes belong to a certain time and a place.

And since it's a new decade and a new team (I don't consider this story to be the further adventures of the pre-Crisis Legion - but they're enough like them that I can still get into them) I totally support all new costumes to give this version more of their own identity. Similar, but fresher.

I see nothing effeminate about any of them by the way. Is sleeveless code for effeminacy these days? I'm gonna have to be more careful about what I wear out from now on.

And I'll respectfully disagree that any of them are mediocre (except Wildfire - which funnily enough seems to be the only one that those not into these redesigns actually like).
 

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Posted by Malvolio on :
 
If sleeveless is now code for effeminacy, than someone better warn Larry the Cable Guy.


 

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Posted by Quisjorge on :
 
I always thought Larry the Cable Guy was a bit light in the loafers.

Anyways, I don't mind the sleeveless look that much. On Ultra Boy though I don't care for it. Lightning Lad looks cool and does Jacques.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
While I don't particularly like the redesigns (Wildfire looks half-naked to me), I think they were necessary for the theme of the story since it's about the fact that Superman's childhood friends have grown up and changed.
 

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Posted by Uranus Lad on :
 
I'm really liking this version of the Legion. Gary Frank is the master of costume design as far as I'm concerned. And I really dig the costumes on the founders, Ultra Boy, Colossal Boy and Dawnstar (although I wonder when she got the boob-job -sheesh!)I've got to say I didn't care much for Phantom Girl, Violet and Invisible Kid's costumes but my criticisms about them would be minor. And I'm finding the story really intriguing. It's parallels to current issues of looming Fascism, xenophobia and rah rah "patriotism" (worldwide) seem well-handled. I really hope Universo isn't the ultimate culprit. That just makes things too convent and simplistic to say "Oh, everybody was hypnotized" These themes/issues are messy with no easy answers and they need to be explored.

So I'm guessing this version of the Legion is a continuation of the one previous to the 5 year leap. I'd have to go back and re-read some of those issues to be sure. At least as far as the roster goes as we currently know it. Bloc is alive Dawnstar is still around etc.. So basically, Vendando Bay (?) never happened.

And I would also venture to guess that this may not be the same Legion as the one depicted in the Lightning saga, although I only read a couple of those issues. Mostly because of the appearance of Karate Kid who was killed well before the end of the "original" run.

Any guesses as to who the other Legionnaire in the internment camp will be? I'm going to guess Timber Wolf beacause he was mentioned maybe Chameleon Boy because he could be undercover or Element Lad - since there's no one on Trom to go to war.
Well, anyway, I absolutely can't wait for the next issue! Long Live the Legion!
 

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Posted by Quisjorge on :
 
Uranus Lad, I do think Cham will show up soon in disguise.
 

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Posted by Hamz on :
 
I have been a huge fan of the Legion for some 36 years and I have to say that I am really loving this story. This feels like the Legion to me. I love the art, the writing and the new uniforms. I can't wait for the next issue to come out. I'm also very excited to see which Legionnaires will appear next and see how Gary has designed them.
 

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Posted by Hamz on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uranus Lad:
Any guesses as to who the other Legionnaire in the internment camp will be? I'm going to guess Timber Wolf beacause he was mentioned maybe Chameleon Boy because he could be undercover or Element Lad - since there's no one on Trom to go to war.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Uranus Lad:


And I would also venture to guess that this may not be the same Legion as the one depicted in the Lightning saga, although I only read a couple of those issues. Mostly because of the appearance of Karate Kid who was killed well before the end of the "original" run.

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quote:

---

And I would also venture to guess that this may not be the same Legion as the one depicted in the Lightning saga, although I only read a couple of those issues. Mostly because of the appearance of Karate Kid who was killed well before the end of the "original" run.

This is the same one from the Lightning Saga story. They mentioned in LS that the founders had risked their own lives to bring KK back from the dead. It was a story that happened off panel somewhere between the Crisis and the Lightning Saga story.

---

Interesting. So maybe some considerable time has passed respectively since the Legionnaires from the Lightning saga (at least the ones I saw were all wearing their old-style costumes) came to the "present" and the Legion we're seeing in Action? ...or maybe they were wearing their old costumes for super-nostalgia. Never liked the pointy yellow collar on KK. It was amazing it never poked anybody's eye out. Even more amazing is how he fit it under that skin-tight outfit he was disguised in in that issue of Justice League. Miraculous 30th century super-clothes I guess. :tease:
 

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Posted by kcekada on :
 
It was revealed somewhere that the display in the Fortress consisted of the Legionnaires in costumes Superman most associated with each member.

I'm guessing that the Legionnaires chose to wear those in case they did bump into Superman. I don't know -- that story had a lot of WTF? moments.
 

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Posted by kcekada on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Uranus Lad:
I'm really liking this version of the Legion. Gary Frank is the master of costume design as far as I'm concerned.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by kcekada:
I liked most of his work for Squadron Supreme, but I just don't dig many of the Legion costumes -- for various reasons. I think Ultra Boy looks like a clown in that new get-up. And I don't like when an artist uses the same lame motif (sleeveless) over and over -- just like Kitson did the lame bare midriffs for just about all of the females.
[/QB]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gorilla Nebula:
the sleeveless look may be a nod to the enlarged red sun Earth now has.

---

Would you elaborate on this? What do you mean?


Re the costume changes: One of the charming things about the Legion was the more or less frequent change in uniforms. It was a way to make the 30th century look even more futuristic.
I wish they all had as individual costumes as possible and maybe it's time someone did a "Dave Cockrum" thing and changed some of the Legionnaires' look drastically by giving them new and wild designs. Jim Lee's designs of a few years ago had that quality. Futuristic fashion + wild designs + new esthetics.
I understand what Kcecada said about the bare midriffs (not that I object to it esthetically). It seems half the super-heroines and video game heroines today must conform to the midriff look. It's tiresome and boring.

I love most of the new costumes and they are quite
individual. There are some "sleeveless" ones but they are all very distinct and very pleasing to look at (well, except Shrinking Violet's costume).
 

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Posted by Reboot on :
 
*points out red stars are COLDER by definition than yellow stars, which are colder in turn than blue stars*
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I had to wait a week longer (CBSes waaay out here are frequently a week behind), but I have to say, part 2 really delivered. I have not been this drawn into a multi-issue Legion story... at least since Robotica/Legion Lost/TMK (all of which I read, entirely or in parts, at roughly the same time).

While Bedard's ruin, in comparison, ended extremely well (more so than Waid; Bedard not only concluded his run but Waid's, in my opinion), it was a solid hit - while Johns knocked it out of the park.

I am liking Franks' work. It really suits the story. The costumes fit the feel; my only quibble is (as someone else remarked) Dawny's seeming enlargement (from 70s/80s, although consistent with Lightning Saga).

I can see Universo or someone like that behind it all, but I think it would be all the more chilling for this to have been an honestly home-grown effort (I do expect a master villain, though. I hope it's not Querl).

I did not see anyone comparing the usuping of the Superman imagery to contemporary politics. I suppose it's just as well not to open that kettle of fish.
 

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Posted by kcekada on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossal Boy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kcekada:
I liked most of his work for Squadron Supreme, but I just don't dig many of the Legion costumes -- for various reasons. I think Ultra Boy looks like a clown in that new get-up. And I don't like when an artist uses the same lame motif (sleeveless) over and over -- just like Kitson did the lame bare midriffs for just about all of the females.

---

Have you been to a health club or a college campus lately? Sleeveless shirts for guys and bare midriffs for the girls are very popular.

[/QB]

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quote:

---

I do think it would be wise for DC to get everyone together and try to come up with one look for the Legion. Enough with every artist designing HIS version of the team.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uranus Lad:
I'd have to disagree on that point. I think there's been too much emphasis on falling back on a "classic"costume to denote an individual character, and their development as a relateable, believable individual can fall by the wayside. Case in point, the undefined, mutable "personalities" of the early Legion.

---

Or the threeboot ones, for that matter. After the first twelve issues I realized that the changed costumes only served to reinforce that these characters, despite their names, were nothing like the original Legionnaires in personality.

So yeah, if the writers can't be bothered to get the characterization right, then I can't get all het up about the artist messing up the costumes.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
agreed.

with consistent art and clearly identifiable faces/characteristics, static costumes are irrelevant. A brown-haired guy with slightly messed up or slongish hair, with stubble, will be clearly identifable as Jo most of the time; if not, a visible green T-shaped dragon emblem somewhere (even a tatoo or bandanna) would be enough of a clue. At this point, we need only a suggestion of identification in costuming, and costumes can be almost as diverse as clothing is in real life.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
The costumes between the LS and Action has me thinking if they are even the same Legion.

I support new costumes but I do think DC should be smarter about this. I don't like that every artist that comes in makes their own costumes, etc.

DC should get a number of artists to design several costumes for each member and then pick from there. That way we get a definite costume for each member and it doesn't change for each story line or artist change.
 

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Posted by Kid Quislet on :
 
In reference to Action #859 - I loved it. Absorbancy Boy is back as a truly formidable villain, along with a bunch of 'rejects'. I love Earth Man's side burns and Fascist Nazi outfit. Radiation Roy is spooky as well.

BTW, couldn't the 'alien' Element Lad just create a Kryptonite ring (assuming he's still around)? Such an item 'found' by Cosmic Boy and friends could easily be dismissed as a forged article by any humans, I would think.

The Lightning Saga and this current story in Action is the Legion I prefer. You go, Geoff Johns.
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
Uranus Lad, you are clearly the anti-Christ and therefore must die.

But seriously, folks, I find it hard to believe that with all the super doodads available to the Legion, they'd need to pilfer the Batcave to prove Krypton's existence. Why not just whip out your handy dandy pocket time viewer (from Ronco®) for instance? Still, the writers have come up with an interesting concept so I'll ride with it.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
I suppose the reason could be this: When an entire world is brainwashed and/or prejudiced to the point of creating gulags for extraterrestrials, nothing short of "absolute proof" or a "miracle" will do. Maybe that's why Brainiac 5 decided to call Superman himself, even though he knew Supes wouldn't have his powers under earth's red sun.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Agreed. If everything the Legion has done or said is assumed to be a lie, then the Legion needs to achieve an extraordinary level of proof to counter that perception. Sort of like trying to use logic and reason with today's zealots of various stripes, who have largely made up their minds already and automatically dismiss all the evidence their particular ideology has already decided is tainted.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
The founders thought finding a kryptonite ring will prove the existence of krypton.

I am sure some kind of carbon dating can tell the age of the rock versus if Element Lad just created it. But I agree it sounds far fetched that this rock will prove anything.

That is why Brainiac 5 is smarter than the average Legionaire. He got Superman!
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
Well, the ring thing also works on a symbolic level. In my review on Legion Abstract I figured it like this:

quote:

---

One other not-yet-fully-formed thought. It kind of seems like Johns is implying, deep down, that the Legion is not the Legion when it’s cut off from Superman. In this sense: Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy may have been the Legion founders, but they have no access to Superman. They’re trying to get help from Batman’s symbols (a ring, specifically), and whatever Batman’s virtues are, he’s not Superman and he’s got nothing in particular to do with the Legion. And so they can be taken down by a bunch of drips whose only claim to fame is that they have Superman’s symbol on their arms. Still, it’s more than Garth, Imra and Rokk have, and the future-faux-JLEarth wins the fight.

On the other hand, Colossal Boy, Wildfire and Dawnstar are similarly on the run, but they have Superman with them and so they win their fight (last issue) and get a whole box of rings. Superman rings, sorta. They are the Legion.

---

quote:

---

Uranus Lad, you are clearly the anti-Christ and therefore must die.

---

Well, I don't know about the dying part, I suppose it is inevitable... Just don't make me angry. Don't you know what Uranus is like when it's angry?

As far as the E-Lad created ring goes, wouldn't the fact he could make kryptonie prove there was a Krypton? I mean, an "element" would have to have existed and he would have to know or be able to tune in on the atomic makeup of kryptonite to recreate it. Right? I dunno. It seems like they were kind of desperately grasping at straws anyway and it doesn't matter much now, they've been captured and Element Lad is as yet out of the picture. Yeah, Gulgags, fascist xenophobes, a red Sun... Tusker! (I suppsose it be too much to hope for Eyeful Ethel? Arm Fall Off Boy? Antenna Lad?) Crashing comets! I can't wait for the next issue!
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
So Action #859 finally reached my home as well. Oh and I loved it even more than the first issue. No matter what we have been discussing the last few months, the emotional element of this new/old Legion totally gets me. This is what feels like "my Legion", and the more of the old stuff keeps returning (talking about Mordru, seeing Blok and Focc, meeting the bad rejects...), the more it feels like this is what we lost year ago... it feels so great!

I really dig the kinda 5YL storyline as well. Okay, so I always loved 5YL, so it is no surprise. But this future feels like it can be saved (Earth has not exploded, the UP is still a major force, the Legionnaires eem to be mostly alive), and so there is the possibility of an ongoing book after the current storyline - I really hope so cause I care for these characters even if I have seen most of them in just one panel - they feel much more like "my Legion" than Reboot and Threeboot together, and I'm so excited to see how the story will continue.

One question to ask though: Don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but did anyone else get the feeling that the captured Phantom Girl looked... different? I mean, her breasts seem to be immense, and her tummy seems to be a little... plump, so CAN IT BE THAT... she has been pregnant??? Is there a tiny little Ultra Phantom Baby in this future???
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Actually I did notice that her hairstyle -which reminded me of 19th century curls - and cleavage made her look a little on the plump (and cute) side, not pregnant. But I wouldn't mind a little Tiny(a)-Jo!
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I think it's nice that you guys are so enthusiastic about the return of Cub.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Well, the Reboot Legion (especially the DnA and post-DnA one) is my second most favorite Legion era all things considered.
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
Catching up: just got the two Action issues as well the latest Green Lantern Corps with Legion reference.


Action

Eye don't like the art. Seriously, I understand an artist wanting a signature but I find it very distracting from the story and the rest of the art.

Story is good.

[ December 09, 2007, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Blockade Boy ]
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blockade Boy:

Eye don't like the art. Seriously, I understand an artist wanting a signature but I find it very distracting from the story and the rest of the art.

Story is good.

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I'm not sure what you mean. You didn't like the art in Action because....?
 

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Posted by kcekada on :
 
I didn't care for the cookie-cutter costumes in the reboot, but unless you're a Legion fan, you're bound to be confused when the Legion monthly, the toon, the JLA/JSA story and now Action all show different costumes. Heck, even the toon changed some costumes in season two...and the monthly is changing costumes also.

From a marketing standpoint, it makes good sense to not have so many different visuals of the Legion. As a Legion fan, it's not a big problem with me -- and I do like updated looks. That's what drew me to the Legion back in the day.

There are some good designs in all of the stories mentioned above, but there are quite a few clunkers as well.

I think DC needs to be a bit wiser in how they showcase the team. It doesn't have the fan base it once did.
 

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Posted by Cobalt Kid on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
I think it's nice that you guys are so enthusiastic about the return of Cub.

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nooooooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooooo
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 
That's one cub there should be no penalty for clubbing...
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Wow! So you guys feel that way for Garridan and Graym too?
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 
No... just Cub...
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Who is Cub???

I hazily remember there was a Reboot kid of Tinya, but that was in a time period when I was way beyond caring for the characters... one word: COCO :-P

But I always cared very deeply for Tinya and Jos relationship, it was some kind of fundament of the Legion (together with Imra/Garth and Cos/Lydda). It was made even more iconic with Tinyas tragic end.

They actually made me care for the Reboot once: When Tinya died AGAIN (which I felt was even more tragic because of the repetition) during White Triangle. But she got resurrected very quickly, so the effect was lost.

As for caring: I don't know how you feel about it, but I CARE very much for this Action kinda Preboot Legion. While I did never much care for the reboot and the fate of the Threeboot characters left me cold from the first moment on, I deeply feel with those captured Legionnaires and want them to get free. So no matter what the scientists say about this old/new incarnation: Geoff Johns managed to make me care with only a few issues... good job!
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Cub was Jo and Tinya's son in the reboot.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Oh by the way, Booster Gold #5 that comes out tomorrow has some notes on a chalkboard in Rip Hunter's lab again, it says: "Lightning Saga(s) Strike Twice?"

Interesting. There's also a mention of Rip having some of Brainiac 5's computer tech from the 31st century in his lab.

Here's a link to the pages! It is for all the DC previews coming out tomorrow actually.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Thanks Craig. Booster Gold is getting pretty good!

Chemical King, I'm sure (well, I hope) we'll see the Action Legion on a more "permanent" base after the end of the Action arc.
 

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Posted by Novelty on :
 
Ooooh, thanks Craig.

Actually it says "Lightning Saga(s) Strike Twice? 3000 + 8"

So I guess Brainy is gonna try to do something next year again with lightning rods?
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
Looking at all the graphitti, I'm wondering if all those elements will play into Final Crisis. There are references to superman's death, "who is Supergirl working for?" and even "The Sun Devils will save us all!" (maybe it's time to dig out that series for eBay!)
 

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Posted by TimCallahan on :
 
Geoff Johns's interview over at Word Ballon has some interesting Legion-related comments.

Johns discusses how the Legion story in Action Comics won't answer any questions about Legion continuity (that will come later, he says), but this story is designed as a character piece, as a way to show how important the Legion is to Superman. He recommends readers leaving their Legion baggage at the door and looking at what this club means from Superman's perspective.

Johns does address the continuity question, vaguely, in the interview. He says that this incarnation of the Legion picks up from the Levitz Baxter run, but ignores the post-Crisis stuff and the 5 Year Gap. I think he's mentioned that elsewhere, but he confirms it in the podcast.

Listen to the whole interview here: http://cdn.libsyn.com/wordballoon/WBgeoffjohns111407.mp3
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 
I just want to know what the freak happened to the Legion at the beginning of "Lightning Saga" and why they ended up where they did. The more I think about it, the more "LS" seemed like only half a story.
 

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Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
 
It certainly is only haf a story - if even that much. As it is, we still have no idea why the Legionnaires went back to the 21st century. All we know is that something or somebody (was that face an image of what's in there, or a reflection of the Legionnaire looking at it?) is now contained in one of those lightning rods. We can speculate who or what it is (Barry Allen?) but there's no clue whatsoever as to why the Legionnaires needed it.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
I guess we'll know some time in 2008 in Legion of Three Worlds or Final Crisis or in whatever DC has planned for the 50th anniversary.
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
So, Karate Kid and Luornu's third body have been brought back from the dead. I wonder if Lyle Norg, Chemical King and Ferro Lad have as well?

Notice that Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl appear noticeably older than the other Lightning Saga characters (who were called 'kids' more than once by the 21st century heroes)? Maybe Lightning Lad's supposed to appear similarly haggard, but I didn't find it as noticeable.

Could it be that the former dead Legionnaires were brought back at the expense of the founders' personal time or life-force or something?

[ December 13, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Mystery Lad ]
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Hmm, Dawnstar also looks older in Action than she did in Lightning Saga.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
I think it's hard to compare cause it's drawn by different artists. Don't think it actually menas something.

Still can't wait for the next Action issue to come out.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystery Lad:
So, Karate Kid and Luornu's third body have been brought back from the dead. I wonder if Lyle Norg, Chemical King and Ferro Lad have as well?

Notice that Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl appear noticeably older than the other Lightning Saga characters (who were called 'kids' more than once by the 21st century heroes)? Maybe Lightning Lad's supposed to appear similarly haggard, but I didn't find it as noticeable.

Could it be that the former dead Legionnaires were brought back at the expense of the founders' personal time or life-force or something?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dain:
Hmm, Dawnstar also looks older in Action than she did in Lightning Saga.

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Besides artists' styles... being on the lam, not eating/sleeping right can make one look older.

And then there are cosmetics/enhancements to consider.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Yes, I believe it's an artistic choice too. They are hunted and tired. I think I've mentioned this before. They can't look like models.
I mean...how do most of us look Monday morning after 4 hours of sleep because we stayed late partying Sunday night?
 

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Posted by Set on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dain: I mean...how do most of us look Monday morning after 4 hours of sleep because we stayed late partying Sunday night?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Set:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dain: I mean...how do most of us look Monday morning after 4 hours of sleep because we stayed late partying Sunday night?

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Hopefully not as hideous as the thing we woke up lying next to.

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What, you don't like Eyeful Ethel?
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Newsarama's got a preview of Action #860 here. I can't wait!!!

And it looks like Brek is joining the fun as of this issue.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
As much as I've been enjoying Frank's costume re-designs for the most part, I have to say that that Polar Boy costume is a big, BIG Fail! Yuck!

Still great to see him on the team though!
 

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Posted by doublechinner on :
 
The look of the whole story is 80's nostalgia, which makes me want to vomit -- preferably on a member's only jacket, which I then ignite with a can of hairspray and burn in effigy while dancing around to a Thompson Twins song played backwards.
 

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Posted by Stealth on :
 
EIGHTIES FOREVER!!

WHEEEEEEEE!!


 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Question: How come nobody is talking about Action #860? Wasn't it out last Wednesday (Dec. 19) in America?
Could it be it was so indifferent that no one had anything to say about it?
Nah! The "hate Action" faction would have had a field day by now if it were that bad.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stealth:
EIGHTIES FOREVER!!

WHEEEEEEEE!!

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quote:

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Question: How come nobody is talking about Action #860? Wasn't it out last Wednesday (Dec. 19) in America?
Could it be it was so indifferent that no one had anything to say about it?
Nah! The "hate Action" faction would have had a field day by now if it were that bad.

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My comic shop didn't have it. Was it available elsewhere last week? Newsarama.com has it a few pages of it as one of their next week previews.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
According to the spreadsheet on which I keep track of which comics I'm getting, it's coming out next week.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I thought it was next week from the beggining. I remember thinking it was a long gap between last issue.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
So why did they have it as "On sale Dec. 19"? Last issue was on sale on the "correct" day.
Just curious.
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
DC's website always had it coming out on Dec. 26th. I remember looking it up right after the last issue came out on November 21st.
 

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Posted by googoomuck on :
 
The banner of covers here at Legionworld says Dec 19.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
My mistake. Fixed.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Actually, even newsarama has it on for Dec. 19 http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Dec07/previews/19.html but thanks for the clarification, guys.
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
No one's talking about issue #860 yet? Or has our crappy-ass server prevented people from doing so?

Here's the alternate cover by Steve -



Beautiful job, despite the fact that I hate the costume. I wish he'd stop by and talk with us again.

Here's some interesting bits from inside -







And...

Click Here For A Spoiler





Is it just me or was there waaayyyy too many splash pages in this issue. Really this was half a comic.
 

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Posted by kcekada on :
 
I haven't been very happy with most of the new uniforms, but Polar Boy's was kinda snappy.

Lighning Lass's was okay, though I'd have preferred an update on her 70s look instead of the 60s look.

Shadow Lass looked great, but Night Girl should never have brought back the boufant.

You know, the story is okay, but it's seeing the classic Legion working with Superman that I find so interesting.
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 
This one's off my pull list. Large pages of silly looking (to me) characters doing nothing. While I was with others, excited about a more "classic" Legion, I cannot follow the logic of this depiction? I feel like I'm missing an inside joke?
 

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Posted by Tromium on :
 
Even if I were not biased against the Johnsboot Legion (I won't pretend I'm not), I couldn't get past Frank's freakishly ugly artwork. Any artist who can make the magnificant Lydda Jath look downright ordinary shouldn't be drawing the Legion, imo.

I wish Steve Lightle had drawn the interiors, too.

So, Brainy is florging nuts again. What makes *this* B5 different from 3boot Brainy? What makes any of the LSaga Legionnaires different or special except for their relationship with Superman? Nothing I can see. I'm so bored with this pretense.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 
This issue was ok for me. It doesn't seem to move as much as the previous ones, maybe there were too many splash pages? I did like the fact that the Legion (and the subs *yay subs*) aren't taking this lying down.

As for the art, I think Gary Frank will be fine on Superman, but his Legion sure is ugly. I find the costumes to be blah, it reminds me of some pieces of modern art where the artist combines colors that shouldn't be combined so the end product looks like my dog just threw up. Maybe some people like it but I don't. The only costume update I'm cool with is Dawnstar's. The others seem uninspired.

Also, faces are a problem. The women are too ugly and look to old (THAT'S Night Girl, for a second I thought it was Tinya's mom). The guys do look emancipated, but hey, they are on the run, but for some reason the females come across more unnatural looking than the guys.

And I'm hoping Brainy is just tricking the Coluns in order to save the day, I don't really want to read about evil Brainy, I mean, come on.

However, I do like the Superman parts and this issue is still alright. Personally I've always had problems with future stories that are like this, especially since its a dark dystopic future only a few years removed from happy Legion. It just implies that none of the ideals of the Legion were ever really part of society, and that as soon as the Legion (or heroes) disappear all the baser parts of humanity come out and no one raises above it. So I was against the PREMISE of this story going it. The fact that I'm not hating it shows that I do find this Legion to be admirable and I'm ignoring the commentary on human society because it is a comicbook and really, it is the type of story to be told in a situation like this.

All that said, I'm still looking forward to how this ends and if we'll see other Legionnaires show up to save the day. I'm hoping for a happy ending, and not a non-ending ala Lightning Saga.
 

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Posted by Awkward Pause Boy on :
 
Yeah, the issue didn't move much. Seems like they're relying a bit too much on reveals of legionnaires. Speaking of which, who's left? So far, I count no mention or glimpse of Sun Boy or Element Lad. Anyone else? And, I'm a tad puzzled at Ayla's situation--it doesn't seem like as big a revelation as was hinted at in Lightning Saga.

I dunno about Brainy being crazy, though. Looks like Superman was in a trance and saw a projection of Brainy--not necessarily the real thing.
 

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Posted by The Man From Cargg on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Awkward Pause Boy:
Yeah, the issue didn't move much. Seems like they're relying a bit too much on reveals of legionnaires. Speaking of which, who's left? So far, I count no mention or glimpse of Sun Boy or Element Lad. Anyone else?

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No mention of Luornu... I suppose her situation would be too complicated to address what with one of her dead selves being back in time fighting at KK's side.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
Yes, well, I'll have to wait until I read the issue before I comment on the story but regarding the art, I don't think you can be more wrong.

Have you or have you not noticed that each Legionnaire has a different and individual face and body type - something very few artists bother to do - and the story is dark enough to warrant a more "haggard" look for the Legionnaires?

This is neither "Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica" where everybody is cartoonish, has exactly the same face and is happy all the time, nor is it the 80s.
If people can't accept a new look and a classic/modern artistic style that's as distinct and "right" for the Legion's vast universe as the artists' we consider "classics" was, then I feel they might be happier rereading the old issues they liked or the 3boot. I'd also like to remind you that the classic/original Legion in Action is NOT the 3boot, so if people expect what they've come to know as the Legion in the 3boot, they are definitely going to be disappointed. There's no "eat it grandpa" in the classic Legion. There's only sci-fi and heroism! (OK, I'm kinda joking here. The 3boot has had its good points).

Not that I wouldn't have liked Lightle or LaRocque or Grell or Cockrum to draw the Legion again, but Gary Frank is a great artist and if people get over the "bulging eyes" thing they may actually notice ALL the art instead of focusing on a detail.
Not to mention that some people seem to capitalise on such details in order to bash Johns and Frank and the return of the classic Legion -without any real constructive criticism - and also rain on everybody else's parade which, frankly, isn't very nice.

As for the overall story, if this storyline doesn't make sense then what does? "Eat it, grandpa" and "we'll show the adults who's boss?" or the "Svaughn/Sean" and the destruction of the Earth thing?

[ December 29, 2007, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
regarding the art, I don't think you can be more wrong.

Have you or have you not noticed that each Legionnaire has a different and individual face and body type - something very few artists bother to do - and the story is dark enough to warrant a more "haggard" look for the Legionnaires?

This is neither "Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica" where everybody is cartoonish, has exactly the same face and is happy all the time, nor is it the 80s.
If people can't accept a new look and a classic/modern artistic style that's as distinct and "right" for the Legion's vast universe as the artists' we consider "classics" was, then I feel they might be happier rereading the old issues they liked or the 3boot.

---

Thanks for the advice.

"If people can't accept a new look"

the old "if you can't be happy with something 'new' you must be wrong" attack.

It's subjective. How can ther "wrong" and even if there could be, is it worth such an attack on otheres with an opinion different from yours? As for art, there is no "new." It's all been done somewhere, somehow.

Nobody here (that I can see) wrote that the ARTIST is a bad artist. They wrote words to the affect that they do not like the style, so how can they be "wrong?"

In this case, I imagine using your reasoning that the artist purposefully chose a specific as opposed to applied his own general style to this issue. The "eye" thing may be a signature, much like Bryne's faces or they may be something the artist chose to do distinctly here, but it's fair game to say it's not appreciated now isn't it.


As for the panels posted, I can't see any reason from a story telling POV that the 2nd, 3rd, or last of them would take up so much issue space and I PERSONALLY wouldn't consider any of them Poster material.
 

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Posted by Dain on :
 
First of all, I didn't attack anyone. Each person is entitled to their opinions and my reply was impersonal.
What I consider an attack or harassment is the fact that it seems increasingly difficult to post anything positive about the Legion in Action here in Legion World (and in a couple of other forums) and have a discussion about it with others who like it, because some people seem never to miss a chance to curse, bash, tear it apart and generally make things miserable for others.

You are partly right about the "if you can't be happy with something 'new' you must be wrong" thing but it doesn't apply either to me personally or to any of my posts. I suppose it could apply to people who only like the 3boot Legion (once again, I read every Legion comic that comes out. have never dropped it and never will)who seem to use it all the time on those fans who just don't like the 3boot.

I don't doubt it's subjective - and for the record I don't give advice - but I DO get the feeling that some people confuse "subjective" with "arbitrary" when they bash Frank's art or John's writing. It's one thing to not like his art style and another thing to use the "bulging" eyes as proof of how "ugly" his art, in general, is.
Please don't use the "different opinion than mine" thing because I've always respected everyone's opinion here and if I have nothing good to say about an artist I usually say nothing.
The same goes when people talk about something I hate about the Legion's history. I don't go around "raining in their parades" every chance I get. It's one thing to state an opinion once or twice and another thing to make it a point to suck the enthusiasm of others. We're supposed to have fun with the Legion, we're here because we love the Legion.

And my point stands: Look at the whole art in each issue and get over the bulging eyes thing. I'm sorry but it's not an opinion I can respect when someone focuses on one detail in a few panels and bases his/her opinion only on that. It is too biased, for lack of a better word, and biases aren't even valid subjective opinions.

Matthew E. and I argued a few weeks ago about the "originality" of the Legion in Action and my opinion was different than his, but he really defended his position and I enjoyed our discussion regardless of his having "a different opinion than mine".

And yes! People who got to know the Legion through the 3boot may not like the one in Action and people who first read an older Legion version may not like the 3boot or the Legion in Action or whatever. There are even new fans who never liked the 3boot and love the Legion in Action (stranger things have happened!)
There's no question about each one having the right to have his/her favorite Legion but chances are they are going to be disappointed by a Legion version that's too different to the one they like.

Finally, I thought it was clear in my last post that it's not constructive criticism that I mind, it's kneejerk negative reactions so what I said in my post didn't necessarily apply to everyone.

[ December 29, 2007, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Dain ]
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
I'm not so impressed with this issue.

The 'world turns against the Legion' trope is a tried and true one, and I've loved it when it's been used well (the Universo Project being my favorite), but this one isn't doing it for me.

I liked Frank's art in Midnight Nation and Supreme Power, but here it's just not working for me. The Legion has always felt young to me, and all of the faces look wrinkly and their smiles like grimaces of pain.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
This certainly wasn’t the strongest issue of the arc, but, hey, middle issues of continuing stories kind of droop sometimes. We’ll see if it picks up.

I’m still having a real mixed reaction to the artwork. Some panels and characters work for me, and others don’t. Shadow Lass looks hot as hell. Polar Boy, Night Girl and Light Lass just look scary. Superman and Colossal Boy still look great. Dawnstar is growing on me. Overall, this storyline is suffering because it was over hyped. All the talk about the return of the “original Legion” created a certain expectation and sense of nostalgia on the part of a number of readers. Many were looking forward to Cockrum era costumes. Many responded positively to the sleek commercial appeal of the costumes and look of the Legion in the Lightning Saga. Good or bad, this is an abrupt change. In my opinion, it was a miscalculation on the part of the creative team. Fans were already pretty divided over the claims of the return of the “original Legion”. Now we are divided even further over the look of the team.

That being said, I’m getting more comfortable with Dawnstar’s look. The decision to make her a key player in the storyline was a good one. It was exciting to see her in the Lightning Saga simply because she is a great character who hadn’t seen any action in years. The more panel time she gets here the better.

Polar Boy was used well this issue. Having him lose an arm to Tusker makes the reject Justice League seem a little more formidable. His dialogue contrasting the reaction of the substitute heroes with the Justice League to their rejection is an important point, and adds to the feel that this is somehow the pre crisis Legion.

I hope Brainiac 5 as the bad guy is a diversion. It will be a total let down if it holds true. We’ll see what next issue brings.
 

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Posted by Blockade Boy on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dain:
Each person is entitled to their opinions...


What I consider an attack or harassment is the fact that it seems increasingly difficult to post anything positive about the Legion in Action here in Legion World (and in a couple of other forums) and have a discussion about it with others who like it, because some people seem never to miss a chance to curse, bash, tear it apart and generally make things miserable for others.

---

I can only say that for me, I'm having difficulty jiving those two paragraphs. We're all entitled to our opinions. Great, everyone agrees but your second paragraph seems to be telling me we're all entitled to our opinions as long as they are only "positive?" I've always thought, correct me if I'm wrong, that message boards were for the enchange of ideas and opinions, positive or negative? Individual artists/writers have "fan" boards, which may have a different purpose.

I'm honestly not seeing any direct bashing,..., of your opinions here that would cause you to be miserable. You directly addressed the opinions of others saying they were "wrong."

If I for example, do not like the art only because of "bulging eyes," why's that a ruin on anyone's day?

If there's something about disparity of opinion that's bothering anyone here, they could start a thread "those that love this comic/issue/art..." Anyone posting otherwise would be clearly off-topic and there'd be bliss in the valley I think.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
I'm confused by the ending? Why would Brainiac 5 send a time bubble back for Superman only to be a genocial dictator type when they find him on Colu? It probably is related to Kal getting networked in to what the Coluans see or something, nothing else makes sense...
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
I think since Brainy sent the time bubble he's been brainwashed by the Coluans. Classic Legion twist...Brainy saving the day...also going crazy.

I agree with Jerry about the art. Some panels look good and some I don't care for. The eyes just make the characters look like some b&w horror comic characters. Shadow Lass looks amazing though!

This issue wasn't as good as the first two but hopefully it picks up again.
 

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Posted by Mystery Lad on :
 
I enjoyed #860 quite a bit... how long is this storyline supposed to last? It probably won't be enough.

Some random observations--

-- I liked the effect of Dawnstar's dark eyes gone gold as she tracked Brainy's teleportation.

-- Has Polar Boy ever gotten such respect? From his torture-defying 'Long Live the Legion' (with the visible breath) to his snazzy, pain-ignoring entrance. He's like a Howard Hawks macho character, making jazzy comments while he's crafting himself an ice forearm to replace the one lost to Tusker. At first I thought it silly that he placed his flight ring on the icified hand, but it really is in perfect keeping with his dialogue and the attitude his words are expressing, isn't it?

Not too smart if his arm melts, though. But as an illustration of character at this moment , it works.

I may be in the minority, but I quite like his uniform... though it's counter to the character's traditional origin of coming from a world that's hotter than Earth. When he's not using his power, he'd be *cold*, wouldn't he?

After one great entrance, why not a pair?

And what a pair-- I love the duo of Shadow Lass and Night Girl. These two should've been operating as partners *always*. What a treat seeing them used as they are here, for me.

Shady's look is very close to the Cockrum/Grell uniform-- though skimpified, to be sure. The only thing I don't like are those high-heeled boots with the cutouts. Maybe she and Lydda use their flight rings subtly to cushion their steps, 'cause if they don't, those girls are in some serious pain after a couple of hours of running around.

I like Lydda's modified bouffant (I'm torn about whether I'd rather see it higher or not... campy or traditional?). I *don't* like those cutouts where her owl symbol's eyes and beak should be. That's just bad taste.

I'm inferring that Shady's using her power throughout the pair's intro... letting the darkness abate to show us the "Heroes Square" sign.

The two-page spread of old Metropolis reminded me of a panel in S&TLSH 205, where a mind-controlled Legion was building a space-ark for The Master. There was a similar sense of scope-- with tiny figures flying and scurrying about their business in the distance. Wanting to know who those tiny people were helped hook me on the Legion many years ago... I wonder if some new readers will get hooked here?

I notice that Bats, Supes and Wondy get statues. No Flash, GL, Hawkman, Aquaman, Atom or Black Canary? Spread the wealth a bit, DC!

Lightning Lass and Timber Wolf didn't make quite as much of an impression as did Tasmia and Lydda. I liked the detail of Ayla supplying the HQ and the underground space railroad with power.

The bit with Brainy is disturbing. I'm over this particular character as insane and don't want to read that again, so I'm hoping there's something else going on here. I'm pretty sure there's some mind-control going on-- or this is part of some stratagem or other. We'll see.

The Justice League of Earth-- I'm liking Spider Girl's sort of wicked dishabille. Her cobwebbiness and the gray/blue tones suit her. Especially as a villainess. I'd prefer the bad girl from her time as a Legionnaire, but-- comics can *always* use viable villainesses.

Something in Golden Boy's face in one of the opening panels makes me wonder if he might turn on his team and aid the LSH?

Storm Boy seems just damaged... broken, even. I wonder what his story is?

Tusker and Radiation Roy are just there.

Earthman... he continues to interest me. Will he become a viable recurring menace? I think he *could*. If he turns out to be a stooge, which I think is quite possible, then perhaps not.

I think Johns and Frank's depictions of these lesser lights as a creepy team of villains who maybe think they're heroes, maybe are knowingly corrupt, is possibly their most notable achievement in the ACTION LSH storyline.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
I did really like the bit with Polar Boy, with his attitude and positive reaction to everything. He's got the, "we were rejected too, but didn't let that stop us from making a difference" when comparing the Subs to this psuedo-JLA group of Legion rejects. Between that and his question to Lydda about how "their team" is doing, I can't wait for the Subs issue to get here (I believe it is part 5??)!!! Big fan of Brek now (I can even overlook the spiky ice-hair...)!

And I know Brainy's gone crazy before, I just don't want us to go down that path again!
 

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Posted by doublechinner on :
 
I just can't get past the way Gary Frank draws eyes...

I think this story is doing a fine job in what Johns stated he wanted to do: tell a "high school reunion" story for Superman. That's exactly what it feels like, which is not a bad thing. It is inherently nostalgic, sometimes overwhelmingly so. It does feel like a Legion story, if only because this story has been told before, but Johns is a master of retelling old stories.

I keep thinking about how I felt, in the mid-1970s, reading the Adventure-era "Adult Legion" story. From my vantage point at that time, the "real" Legion had moved on, to a new headquarters, new costumes, hipper, older tone. But here was the Superman of the mid-1960s visiting a "Leave It to Beaver" adult version of the team in a clunky new/old headquarters, the same outdated costumes, pipes, male pattern baldness, mustaches, love handles, etc. It was a fascinating case study in cognitive dissonance. Had those hip, sexy young adults of the 1970s embraced a nostalgic, conservative revival in their old age? I couldn't reconcile it. Apparently, neither could Paul Levitz, so he later wrote LSH #300 to explain it away. Don't get me wrong, I loved (and still do) the original Adult Legion story. But I think I realized at that time that these characters couldn't really grow up. Being young was an essential part of their story.

So we have, almost exactly 40 years later, a new version of that dissonance, with a "current" Legion title telling tales of the aspiring young heroes, and a Superman story showing us a glimpse of the now-adult Legionnaires Supes hung around with in his youth. This time, it's explicit that these are 2 separate Legions, at least at the moment. Like the original Adult Legion story, I am struck by the funky headquarters and the truly awful costumes. Nevertheless, reunions are fun and instructive in reminding us what we should carry from our adolescent years into adulthood. It's also instructive that nostalgia, like an overpowered rear-wheel drive muscle car of an earlier era, easily careens out of control into kitsch.
 

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Posted by stephbarton on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Omni Craig:
I did really like the bit with Polar Boy, with his attitude and positive reaction to everything. He's got the, "we were rejected too, but didn't let that stop us from making a difference" when comparing the Subs to this psuedo-JLA group of Legion rejects. Between that and his question to Lydda about how "their team" is doing, I can't wait for the Subs issue to get here (I believe it is part 5??)!!! Big fan of Brek now (I can even overlook the spiky ice-hair...)!

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You know, my first exposure to the Subs was the Legion of Substitute Heroes Special and I loved them ever since. for some reason I can take a character who is used as a joke and see the wonderful concept behind them. Having had the opportunity (thank you Showcase) to actually read the Subs orgin and some other stories with them my love for them (and Polar Boy) grows for just the above reason. They were rejected, but they were still heroes and still strove to be better. That to me is probably more inspiring than the Legion proper itself.

to me the subs are like Rudy in a way. The guy who just didn't have the physical chops (whether their powers are too ineffective or not enough control) but who had more than enough heart. the entire purpose of the subs was to stand in for the Legion if they weren't there, and they didn't want any glory from it.

I've always loved Polar Boy and the subs and I have a feeling Johns does too because it is looking like they are finally getting the respect they deserve.
 

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Posted by Sir Tim Drake on :
 
I suppose I can't deny that some of Gary Frank's faces look ugly, but I still really enjoyed this issue. It was exciting, witty, and reminded me of the greatness that was the Levitz Legion.

To mention a few specific points: Seeing Ayla and Shady felt like revisiting old friends (even though they're both in the current series). To my surprise, Geoff made me feel admiration for Brek, who is one of my least favorite Legionnaires. And it was nice to see Night Girl finally get a flight ring.
 

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Posted by Caliente on :
 
And so the affirmation that in the future sleeves will become obsolete continues! Seriously though, I am rather amused. Still enjoying the arc and still loving what Geoff has done.
 

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Posted by DrakeB3004 on :
 

I didn't really like Brek's new uniform, but Steve makes it look good somehow. I also like the ice/claw hand (not all the time though)
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 
I think Steve's works due to the fact that there are purple sleeves and not the interior's sleeveless look, and the pants are a better color (grayish-blue...like PB's original costume) on the cover.

[ January 01, 2008, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Nightcrawler ]
 

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Posted by MLLASH on :
 
For me, this ACTION arc has been an absolute treat so far.
 

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Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
 
I hope that Brek's ice-prosthetic is not portrayed as a fuctional hand over the next few issues. He can mount a flight ring on its fingers, but he does not have telekinetic control over ice, and there are no nerves or muscles in there. Cool as it is for him to replace his arm that way, I hope the writers don't lose sight of that fact.

Wht is Shady even bothering to wear anything? I'm really, really not the type who undresses women with his eyes, but darned if I couldn't picture her naked when I looked at her in this issue.

Timber Wolf's personality seems to have been borrowed from Sawyer on Lost.
 

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Posted by Longevity Lad on :
 
What intrigued me was the Mon-El reference. Was a working PZ projector just lying around HQ? How would the rejects know what it was and how it worked? And how did they do it? Sneak up behind him in a Storm Boy fog? Beam him out while he napped? Pretend to be a friendly young Luthor(at least we know THAT worked once before}?
One last thing--if Earth Man confronted Mon does he now have all his powers? It appears not to be.
Thus, the rumors are wrong and Mon-El will show up to fight alongside Supes yet again! I wish.
 

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Posted by Daryl on :
 
After getting excited about seeing "my" Legion returning after the Lighting Legion arc - I'm now completely disappointed.

This IS supposed to be that same Legion right? If so, I feel a little cheated. This is nothing but another reboot.

I should just get over this, but the one I was looking forward to seeing the most - Wildfire - looks ridiculous.
 

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Posted by Arachne on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller:


Wht is Shady even bothering to wear anything?

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quote:

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Timber Wolf's personality seems to have been borrowed from Sawyer on Lost.

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Heh. I knew I liked him for a reason. I hadn't noticed that; I'll have to reread.

It's not a bad story, but I think Shooter's issue is blowing this out of the water.
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Arachne:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller:


Wht is Shady even bothering to wear anything?

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quote:

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[qb]

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quote:

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Well, it's not that different from the Cockrum/Grell costume.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chaim Mattis Keller:

quote:

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Well, it's not that different from the Cockrum/Grell costume.

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Back then, she was drawn with normal proportions. Now, she and Dawny are oozing cleavage. Of the female Legionnaires in this latest issue, only Ayla looks like she's not wearing a McCauley Megabra.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reboot:
Did that survey make any comment on the correlation between increased bra size and the general proportion of body fat...?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultra Jorge:
Yeah the Shady costumes seems in touch with her past costume. The one that bothered me was the holes in Night Girl's costume. ugh.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yellow Kid:

anywho..my question is, can we still call this "The Lightning Saga Legion" ? I'm not certain these two are the same Legion. Nor do the pair in 52 seem to be a part of any other Legion that we have any direct evidence for. It's gettin' kind of freaky. I'm starting to wonder what happened to the Continuity Cops. It' chaos I tell you.
Chaos!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
I think they're the same. The characters said as much in the first issue of the Action arc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Omni Craig:
I'm confused by the ending? Why would Brainiac 5 send a time bubble back for Superman only to be a genocial dictator type when they find him on Colu? It probably is related to Kal getting networked in to what the Coluans see or something, nothing else makes sense...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dain:
First of all, I didn't attack anyone. Each person is entitled to their opinions and my reply was impersonal.
What I consider an attack or harassment is the fact that it seems increasingly difficult to post anything positive about the Legion in Action here in Legion World (and in a couple of other forums) and have a discussion about it with others who like it, because some people seem never to miss a chance to curse, bash, tear it apart and generally make things miserable for others.

You are partly right about the "if you can't be happy with something 'new' you must be wrong" thing but it doesn't apply either to me personally or to any of my posts. I suppose it could apply to people who only like the 3boot Legion (once again, I read every Legion comic that comes out. have never dropped it and never will)who seem to use it all the time on those fans who just don't like the 3boot.

I don't doubt it's subjective - and for the record I don't give advice - but I DO get the feeling that some people confuse "subjective" with "arbitrary" when they bash Frank's art or John's writing. It's one thing to not like his art style and another thing to use the "bulging" eyes as proof of how "ugly" his art, in general, is.
Please don't use the "different opinion than mine" thing because I've always respected everyone's opinion here and if I have nothing good to say about an artist I usually say nothing.
The same goes when people talk about something I hate about the Legion's history. I don't go around "raining in their parades" every chance I get. It's one thing to state an opinion once or twice and another thing to make it a point to suck the enthusiasm of others. We're supposed to have fun with the Legion, we're here because we love the Legion.

And my point stands: Look at the whole art in each issue and get over the bulging eyes thing. I'm sorry but it's not an opinion I can respect when someone focuses on one detail in a few panels and bases his/her opinion only on that. It is too biased, for lack of a better word, and biases aren't even valid subjective opinions.

Matthew E. and I argued a few weeks ago about the "originality" of the Legion in Action and my opinion was different than his, but he really defended his position and I enjoyed our discussion regardless of his having "a different opinion than mine".

And yes! People who got to know the Legion through the 3boot may not like the one in Action and people who first read an older Legion version may not like the 3boot or the Legion in Action or whatever. There are even new fans who never liked the 3boot and love the Legion in Action (stranger things have happened!)
There's no question about each one having the right to have his/her favorite Legion but chances are they are going to be disappointed by a Legion version that's too different to the one they like.

Finally, I thought it was clear in my last post that it's not constructive criticism that I mind, it's kneejerk negative reactions so what I said in my post didn't necessarily apply to everyone.

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Well said, Dain!

I truly wonder why those with such narrow limitations on what Legion can be bother to read anything new/different at all.
 

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Posted by Yellow Kid on :
 
I hope you're not angered Dain. It's an open discussion and everybody's opinions are welcome. A few mention some things they don't like (and a few others chime in) and others state their love for the new story (and others chime in here too) that's part of the fun of these threads.
I like it that there are so many well versed fans who want to express themselves and state their wishes and desires for the characters we've loved so long. For instance, I don't really like the new Dawnstar costume but I do like it that her character has grown from arrogance to confidence, a natural extension of the storylines of the 80's Legion.

I don't mean to have come off as a naysayer, actually my biggest problem is that Action only comes out once a month and I'm dying to read the next installment.

Afterall, isn't that the aim of serialized stories?
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
So apart from all the arguing that seems to have happened here while I was on my winter vacation, my comment about the new Action:

Loved the return of Shady and especially of Lydda and Brek. Oh I loved that. Brek having lost an arm but not his spirit - very good, I like reading stuff like that.

I did not like this issue as much as the one before, which had even more drama (Legionnaires captured in glass prisons, reminds me so much of an old Captain Future episode but I digress...), but I thought the story evolved well enough to keep me excited about it. Only thing that was "too quick" for me was the sudden jump from the prison to the underground headquarters. Had to read those pages three times and still was not sure how exactly they had gotten there...

As I am very familiar with Gary Franks art (read his Supergirl, read his Midnight Nation, read his Supreme Power and liked all of it), I can't see anything negative in his art. I can see that some fans might not like his art cause of the bulging eyes, but that's simply a matter of taste. I for my part never cared for Curt Swans art, But I would never say anything negative about his merits for the Legion.

So all in all I am still very excited about this run, it is currently my number one comic to read as soon as I get home with my monthly dose. Was not that excited about the Legion since I started collecting the US originals way back in 1994...
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I agree with CK on several points: the transition to the HQ was too quick and was less-than-well-paced (this is the closest thing to a negative that I've had towards this story thus far), and the Franks/Swan comparison. Swan is old-school and stiff, but competent; I've never been excited by his work, but I've never put any Swan fans down, nor do I feel the need to. I'll take Franks over any number of artists (including Swan), and while his eyes are an odd quirk, they are part of his style, and it generally works.

The Action run remains, to me, the most exciting Legion story at least since Robotica, if not since Conspiracy.
 

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
What's going on here? Where are all the tears for Double-Header?!?

Long-time, ultra-obscure, quirky character - who was a SUB to boot - is heavily implied to be dead in this issue. And no one around here raises an eyebrow?

This is still Legion World right?!?



I enjoyed this issue very much. I agree with those who say there seems to be a disconnect between this Legion and the Lightning Saga Legion, and also with the Crisis-era Legion, but for me that's not a problem. I'm just enjoying the story for what it is.

I enjoyed seeing the team come together a bit more this issue and love that Lydda seems to be included as a fully-fledged Legionnaire now. Brek definitely got a great intro (Johns must have a soft spot for this character) but I'm not so keen on the ice-arm or the costume. Though I liked everyone else's - including Lydda and Tasmia.

One thing I definitely am appreciating in this story though is Collosal Boy's prominent place in it. He is so normally side-lined during major Legion tales so it's great seeing that change here. And he had a great short and sweet line with "Revolution" too. I do wonder if it's perhaps being hinted that Yera has been killed off though? Just a feeling I'm getting. I wouldn't have much of a problem with it if so actually as I always felt she seemed to drag him down a bit somehow.

Anyway, looking forward to the next installment.
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
hmm. I missed that. have to re-read. never a big double-header fan, tho.
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
I liked Polar Boy's costume but hated Night Girl's. Her hairdo looks tired and dated too. Shady's is way too skimpy. How's she supposed to hop around fighting bad guys if she's always worried about her boobs popping out of her "costume"? Colossal Boy's is okay, but has too many extraneous details to stand out. Why does Dawnstar wear a headband if it doesn't bind her hair? In fact, how does it stay on at all? Is it a tiara like Wonder Woman's? That doesn't seem to fit the character. I never liked this character, but I do like that the artist is trying to draw her with native American features and not as "generic pretty girl with red skin" as many other aritsts have done.

I'm disappointed with the "Justice League's" costumes overall. They're very gray and colorless except for Radiation Roy's and his armor is somewhat ludicrously reminiscent of Fortress Lad's. They even gave Spider Girl gray hair instead of her trademarked red. And why does Storm Boy keep hiding in the background? He's the most interesting to me, and gets the least screen time. Tusker? Puh-lease. Why dig this goon out of mothballs? If his skeleton is invulnerable how did his tusk get broken? The original Tusker could grow his tusks out at will, so why doesn't he just regrow it? And when is Golden Boy going to turn somebody into gold instead of just hitting them with his metal fists?

I'm pretty happy with the art and story overall though. Can't wait to see where it's going.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 
Really good points about the JLA of 3008 Jim. The way Storm Boy is portrayed, in both mannerism and appearnace would make me think he was a vampire or goth. He's always skulking around in the shadows and wearing dark clothes. Are they trying to infer some kind of moodiness (dark clouds on the horizon kind of thing)?

And with Spider Girl's hair, maybe she's a bit prematurely grey now, since some time has passed?

I'm really looking forward to the Subs vs the Rejects, since they are basically two sides of the same coin. All were told "No" by the Legion, yet some of them strove to become heroes anyway!
 

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Posted by jimgallagher on :
 
Oh, yeah, re Polar Boy's arm. I like that he can use his power so creatively now, but don't see how he could use it as a functioning limb. For instance, I don't see how he could wiggle his fingers or make a fist as his ice has never been organic or under his mental control before to my knowledge. And why didn't he just wear the flight ring on his real hand?
 

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Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
What's going on here? Where are all the tears for Double-Header?!?

Long-time, ultra-obscure, quirky character - who was a SUB to boot - is heavily implied to be dead in this issue. And no one around here raises an eyebrow?

This is still Legion World right?!?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jimgallagher:
Oh, yeah, re Polar Boy's arm. I like that he can use his power so creatively now, but don't see how he could use it as a functioning limb. For instance, I don't see how he could wiggle his fingers or make a fist as his ice has never been organic or under his mental control before to my knowledge. And why didn't he just wear the flight ring on his real hand?

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quote:

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Originally posted by jimgallagher:
Oh, yeah, re Polar Boy's arm. I like that he can use his power so creatively now, but don't see how he could use it as a functioning limb. For instance, I don't see how he could wiggle his fingers or make a fist as his ice has never been organic or under his mental control before to my knowledge. And why didn't he just wear the flight ring on his real hand?

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He couldn't put it on his one remaining hand because he has no right hand to put it on the left hand. Try to put on a ring on your left hand with your left hand. It's tough Well, it's possible, but it's tough
 

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Posted by Ultra Jorge on :
 
Alternate Action covers over at Newsarama! Grell & Giffen!
 

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Posted by Mon-el on :
 
Double post.........

Edit: I see Ultra Jorge already posted this.

[ January 10, 2008, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Mon-el ]
 

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Posted by Mon-el on :
 
The colorized Mike Grell variant for Action #861 appeared on Newsarama about 40 minutes ago.



Looks like Polar Boy's right arm has mysteriously came back. It needs to be recolored.

The Giffen variant for Action #862 also appeared.



[ January 10, 2008, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Lightning Lad ]
 

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Posted by Uranus Lad on :
 
Awesome Giffen cover! So what is Color Kid a girl now/ I seem to remember something about him having some gender-reversal virus or something once but don't remember when or where.
And Grell too! Awesome!

As to Set's question about this being sloppy writing. I don't think so, I think there's a lot to yet be revealed. I'm really not familiar with the writer (I do know who he is but don't know that I've read his work) but so far, the story seems fairly complex. I am assuming Brainy sent the message-bot to the "present"before he was interred, escaped and became the computer tyrant of colu. I'm not sure how long this run is supposed to last but I'm thinking it's not just a 3-4 issue thing. At leat I hope.
 

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Posted by Lightning Lad on :
 
Just a note. Hotlinking to other sites is not allowed. If you don't have a place of your own to upload a copy of an image, just let Nightcrawler or myself know and we'll gladly host the image for you.

I've edited the post above to the images hosted at my LegionPics site.
 

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Posted by Omni Craig on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Uranus Lad:
Awesome Giffen cover! So what is Color Kid a girl now/ I seem to remember something about him having some gender-reversal virus or something once but don't remember when or where.

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I believe that is supposed to be Rainbow Girl, who was a Legion reject preboot, but never joined the Subs then. That is a close variation of her costume anyway. You are correct that Color Kid did turn into a woman once (in the Legion of Subs special where Infectious Lass' out of control powers caused it to happen).

And for the record, I like Keith's take on Fire Lad! And the Grell cover looks great too!! Lots of Legiony goodness!
 

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Posted by Novelty on :
 
Who's that Dawny's holding? And I wish Giffen was doing the interiors as well...
 

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Posted by Chaim Mattis Keller on :
 
Storm Boy
 

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Posted by Pariscub on :
 
From Geoff's Johns interview on CBR

"“When Superman was growing up, he had no friends and finally he got some friends that he could relate too. That’s the coolest thing about the original Legion. But once our Legion arc run is up, it’s not the end of the Legion,” said Johns.

“The entire purpose of this arc is really to introduce the Legion to someone who has never heard of it. And show why they are so important to Superman. That’s why this Legion story works because of their connection to Superman and Superman’s connection to them. There is a really special connection that makes Superman, Superman. He wasn’t Bruce Wayne when he was a kid. Even though he was an outsider, he had friends, friends who were beyond anything that he ever could have imagined. They were just like him. They were aliens, who looked like him, who came to Earth."

So more Legion, eh?
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
Wow, that alternate cover art looks totally Kirby-esque!
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pariscub:
From Geoff's Johns interview on CBR

"“When Superman was growing up, he had no friends and finally he got some friends that he could relate too. That’s the coolest thing about the original Legion. But once our Legion arc run is up, it’s not the end of the Legion,” said Johns.

“The entire purpose of this arc is really to introduce the Legion to someone who has never heard of it. And show why they are so important to Superman. That’s why this Legion story works because of their connection to Superman and Superman’s connection to them. There is a really special connection that makes Superman, Superman. He wasn’t Bruce Wayne when he was a kid. Even though he was an outsider, he had friends, friends who were beyond anything that he ever could have imagined. They were just like him. They were aliens, who looked like him, who came to Earth."

So more Legion, eh?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:
It's 'Brainiac', not 'Braniac'. Because he has brains, not cereal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matthew E:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pariscub:
From Geoff's Johns interview on CBR

"“When Superman was growing up, he had no friends and finally he got some friends that he could relate too. That’s the coolest thing about the original Legion. But once our Legion arc run is up, it’s not the end of the Legion,” said Johns.

“The entire purpose of this arc is really to introduce the Legion to someone who has never heard of it. And show why they are so important to Superman. That’s why this Legion story works because of their connection to Superman and Superman’s connection to them. There is a really special connection that makes Superman, Superman. He wasn’t Bruce Wayne when he was a kid. Even though he was an outsider, he had friends, friends who were beyond anything that he ever could have imagined. They were just like him. They were aliens, who looked like him, who came to Earth."

So more Legion, eh?

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Oh, so that's not the end of the Legion? Gee, maybe DC can start up a regular series for the Legion. Maybe they could bring back Jim Shooter to write it--I wonder what he's doing these days? Or, if they want to be really ambitious, they could give the Legion their own TV show, and put out a comic based on the TV show! Wow, I'm so glad Geoff Johns has finally started writing Legion comics again, after all those years with none at all.

I kid. A little.

Actually, the veiled and vaguely-hinted-at assumption in that article that there have been no Legion comics published since about '86 is not the thing that annoyed me about that interview. The thing that annoyed me? It's 'Brainiac', not 'Braniac'. Because he has brains, not cereal.

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My, someone got out on the wrong side of the bed this morning
 

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Posted by Nightcrawler on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Blacula:
Is that Giffen cover a homage to another cover from somewhere? Maybe that early v.5 Venado Bay cover or something? I swear it looks totally familiar.

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Posted by Blacula on :
 
LOL! Thanks Gary! I thought I recognised it. I'm sure there must be more examples than them too. I'm know I'm gonna be more aware of it when I see that cover design from now on.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 
I think someone said somewhere that the original was a Sgt. Rock cover.
 

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Posted by Superboy-Supergirl on :
 
Braniac is from Colon and Brainiac 5 is from Colo
 

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Posted by Uranus Lad on :
 
Colu
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 
I think the really important question is:

Where the heck do I file the LS Legion?

I collect JSA, so the entire Lightning Saga is grouped with them. (Not collecting JLA except for the LS issues.)

I don't collect the current ACTION except for the LS Legion and earlier Mon-El appearances, but am loathe to group them all the way back with the 70's ACTION run.

What's a collector to do?
 

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Posted by Quislet, Esq. on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pov:
I think the really important question is:

Where the heck do I file the LS Legion?

I collect JSA, so the entire Lightning Saga is grouped with them. (Not collecting JLA except for the LS issues.)

I don't collect the current ACTION except for the LS Legion and earlier Mon-El appearances, but am loathe to group them all the way back with the 70's ACTION run.

What's a collector to do?

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Buy multiple copies so you can cross file them.
 

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Posted by Chemical King on :
 
Well it actually is an important question...

As I am not filing them per series, but "Legion history" chronologically, I was thinking of filing them after Zero Hour, before Reboot. But as I don't know how this new/old Legion will survive in the DCU, I currently file them together with the Threeboot Legion (and the Lightning Saga) in one current map, hoping that some chronological sense will be made soon...

I never understood why people would file their stuff series by series. That would make no sense because reading them, you would miss some stuff, and all the crossovers would be torn asunder...
 

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Posted by Pov on :
 
I'm running into that with the reboot LSH and Legionnaires series, actually... I keep meaning to combine them by the monthly numbering DC did like they were doing with all the S-titles at the time. I was rereading some Legionnaires while putting stuff away, and realized I needed to read some LSH issues to follow the storylines (Composite Legionnaire, Superboy...)

And Quis, I was thinking of tracking down the variant covers for just that reason... Unfortunately, my regular back-issue places are sold out of the JSA incentives. Glad I got the Starman Sloppy Joe cover when I did!
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
I'm 1,000 miles from the rest of my collection, so right now they are but three issues among roughly two dozen. I don't have to worry about where to file thme until late April.
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
I have my Legion comics filed like this: In monthly numerical order front to back by the following sections:

1. Adventure

2. Superboy/LSH/First 12 issues of Tales

3. Baxter series with the reprint issues of Tales inserted in the correct story order.

4. Legion of Super Heroes (5 Years Later) up to "End of an Era"

5. Legionnaires (Up to "End of an Era")

6. End of an Era - Legion/Legionnaires/Valor In story order

7. Post Zero Hour - LSH and Legionnares combined in story order (monthly numbering)

8. Legion Lost

9. Legion Worlds

10. The Legion

11. Legion of Super-Heroes (current series)

In front of each of those major sections, I put all the annuals or specials that came out during the time period of that series. I'm considering the Lightning Saga and current Action storyline "specials", so they are going right in front of the current series. I set this system up about three years ago. It took a bit of effort up front, but has evolved pretty naturally, and made my life much easier. I can find any Legion issue I'm looking for in a matter of seconds.
 

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Posted by MYG on :
 
My Legion collection is filed pretty similarly, except I have the "Action" run of the Legion between Adventure Comics and Superboy/LSH. I have the Legion Lost, Legion Worlds, Valor and all other misscellaneous titles filed seperately.
The annuals (specials, etc) are to be found by release date with those subsequent runs/titles. The pride and joy of my collection (Adventure 247) is stored with the companion runs, tabloids, indexes and etc. I even have a small doubles collection of selected issues for quick referrence and "read only". Yes, I'm obsessed and probably have collected "everything" Legion including the Flight Ring...somewhere!
 

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Posted by Jerry on :
 
Yeah, that's where I would put the Action run if I had any. That's the biggest hole in my collection. Thank goodness for archives.
 

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Posted by Set on :
 
It's been vaguely bugging me that they have dropped Color Kid for Rainbow Girl, but I wonder now if it has something to do with the whole 'red sun' thing.

I don't recall any convincing rationale for exactly why red / yellow sunlight affects Kryptonians or Daxamites differently, and it's *possible* that Color Kid, who actually changes the frequency of the light, could snap his fingers and power-up Superman with golden sunshiny goodness...
 

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Posted by Kent Shakespeare on :
 
...or maybe Earthman already got him, absorbed his powers, and turned the sun red in the first place.

the color-sun bit is Silver Age nonsensical stuff, but it helped create an alternative to everyone in the universe having Kryptonite on hand in order to give Supes a challenge.
 

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Posted by Matthew E on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Set:
It's been vaguely bugging me that they have dropped Color Kid for Rainbow Girl, but I wonder now if it has something to do with the whole 'red sun' thing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kent Shakespeare:
...or maybe Earthman already got him, absorbed his powers, and turned the sun red in the first place.

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